Author Topic: Option to ncs only?  (Read 12587 times)

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Offline jc888888888

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Re: Option to ncs only?
« Reply #45 on: September 29, 2016, 07:02:00 AM »
Some of the FINEST KNOW HIGHEST GRADE EXAMPLES of $20 gold pieces stored in metal paint cans  mixed with dirt and rocks for preservation purposes LOL ..some coins worth more than 1 million dollars they went into those cans at the same grade they came out TRUST ME ....anyone who is worried about copper spots or anything else on pure gold coins go back to sleep and stop worrying .. if your coins are sitting in PVC laden omp get a scissors get them out of it , NCS them and hope they are not chemically corroded ..

Offline 1668Chris

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Re: Option to ncs only?
« Reply #46 on: September 29, 2016, 10:16:20 AM »
First of all copper spots are "corrosion".  They result from harmful gases reacting with impurities in gold.  They initially occur on the surface because that is where the chemical reaction takes place.  A coin cannot corrode from the inside out since there is no reaction with these gases.   This type of corrosion is defined as "environmental damage" which is a key term in both the NGC and PCGS guarantee.  It is the same type of environmental damage as toning is is to silver coins.  If you cannot understand this concept then you should not be using Intercept and leave your coins to their vices.

Second copper spots do result in lower grades vs a coin without copper spots.

Third copper spots can be easily removed thru proper conservation.

Fourth, a coin that develops copper spots post conservation and grading will not be the same grade.  To remove the copper spots the coin must be sent back to NGC go back thru conservation for another fee and then back thru grading.  Hence the coin may not receive the same grade it did before.  NGC is very clear about this process.

That is a risk I am not willing to take.

Offline jc888888888

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Re: Option to ncs only?
« Reply #47 on: September 29, 2016, 10:22:51 AM »
 Chris I'm going to start by saying I love your bags they have their place but if anyone thinks that you can stop copper spots from forming by putting your coins in your bags   Directly after an nCS treatment I believe their mistaken  copper spots are formed by impurities in the gold anywhere inside the coin if someone thinks they can stop them from reoccurring or orcurring by surface cleaning a coin and putting it inside a bag it's just simply is not true

Offline Honus

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Re: Option to ncs only?
« Reply #48 on: September 29, 2016, 10:35:41 AM »
First of all copper spots are "corrosion".  They result from harmful gases reacting with impurities in gold.  They initially occur on the surface because that is where the chemical reaction takes place.  A coin cannot corrode from the inside out since there is no reaction with these gases.   This type of corrosion is defined as "environmental damage" which is a key term in both the NGC and PCGS guarantee.  It is the same type of environmental damage as toning is is to silver coins.  If you cannot understand this concept then you should not be using Intercept and leave your coins to their vices.

Second copper spots do result in lower grades vs a coin without copper spots.

Third copper spots can be easily removed thru proper conservation.

Fourth, a coin that develops copper spots post conservation and grading will not be the same grade.  To remove the copper spots the coin must be sent back to NGC go back thru conservation for another fee and then back thru grading.  Hence the coin may not receive the same grade it did before.  NGC is very clear about this process.

That is a risk I am not willing to take.

Copper spots are NOT corrosion, unless you consider the copper that is naturally added to many gold coins "corrosion".   And the "harmful gases" you're referring to - that's oxygen.   But let's just get it straight from the experts:

https://www.ngccoin.com/news/article/1197/gold-coin-grading/

Some key quotes:

"These spots and streaks are caused by concentrations of copper amid the overall gold composition."

"Being more reactive to the atmosphere than gold, these concentrations of copper slowly toned to a deeper red, which, when set against the overall gold color, results in various shades of orange to the eye.

"Understanding how copper spots form helps the knowledgeable collector appreciate that such spotting is a natural consequence of the coin-making process and not something to be alarmed about."

"With their appreciation of an old coin's antique quality, they are not put off by spotting that has occurred as a natural consequence of age"

"In extreme cases of spotting, however, NGC's graders may lower a coin's grade downward if they believe that the spotting diminishes a coin's fitness for a higher grade."

"Only rarely is copper spotting or streaking such an issue that it affects a coin's grade, and to the veteran collector of coins a few colorful blushes may be viewed as an asset. This positive aspect, too, is factored into the NGC grade assigned to each coin."

"To the real connoisseur, however, a vintage gold piece is its own animal, possessed of features and qualities that are unique. NGC recognizes these qualities, and it assigns the correct grade consistently, factoring into the equation such variables as strike, luster, surface marks and, yes, copper spots. So, when you see a beautiful, completely original gold graded by the experts at NGC, remember that the few blushes of coppery toning may be evidence of originality and a badge worn with pride."

Eric Liquori
Anvil Fine Wares
www.anvilfinewares.com

Offline jc888888888

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Re: Option to ncs only?
« Reply #49 on: September 29, 2016, 10:45:21 AM »
I have a  st guadens $20 with copper streaks right across the coin  from 11 oclock till 5  ...I would not clean her if someone paid me too..very pretty  Ill post some pics later

Offline Honus

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Re: Option to ncs only?
« Reply #50 on: September 29, 2016, 10:50:29 AM »
I'm not cleaning this either...

http://www.anvilfinewares.com/1990panda.htm

Eric Liquori
Anvil Fine Wares
www.anvilfinewares.com

Offline 1668Chris

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Re: Option to ncs only?
« Reply #51 on: October 05, 2016, 01:58:40 PM »
here is a pic of those lovely copper spots turning black with grey in the middle.  Just zoom in on the pic by the lettering.  Looks like corrosion to me.

Offline jc888888888

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Re: Option to ncs only?
« Reply #52 on: October 05, 2016, 08:48:50 PM »
Chris ,I am not trying to be a wise ass here .... if that "corrosion" bothers you and your concerned and it is your coin ..I will take a chance on it  melt plus 5% delivered pp gift ..just PM me regard,s Joe

Offline 1668Chris

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Re: Option to ncs only?
« Reply #53 on: October 05, 2016, 10:05:35 PM »
Sorry not mine ,  just one example I found on eBay today.

Offline Honus

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Re: Option to ncs only?
« Reply #54 on: October 06, 2016, 12:59:27 AM »
Sorry not mine ,  just one example I found on eBay today.

So you've not actually seen this coin in person, and you're just going by photos.  And for all you know, this coin could go to NCS and every one of those spots could come right off, revealing a flawless perfect coin free of whatever you think is corrosion.   And for all you know, those could be carbon spots rather than copper spots, due to a mint employee accidentally sneezing on the coin during packaging, an event and condition that should not be extrapolated to apply to every other coin with spots.
Eric Liquori
Anvil Fine Wares
www.anvilfinewares.com

Offline 1668Chris

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Re: Option to ncs only?
« Reply #55 on: October 06, 2016, 09:56:42 AM »
Copper spots are NOT corrosion, unless you consider the copper that is naturally added to many gold coins "corrosion".   And the "harmful gases" you're referring to - that's oxygen.   But let's just get it straight from the experts:



Unfortunately you use terminology or phrases that makes no sense. I certainly hope Copper is not added to gold coins.....not sure what mint you buy from.  Copper may exist as a natural impurity, but it is not the main impurity.  Copper spots are slang in numismatic terminology to describe the color of spots on gold coins.  When in fact that they are the result of a chemical reaction, called Corrosion, which results from impurities in gold, which is mainly silver, which reacts with sulfur in the air, not as you say "oxygen".  O2 is a very stable element.

Also, carbon spots are another slang term to describe the same chemical reaction.  Carbon spots may exist in diamonds but not aware of them existing in gold etc.

Here is just one example of "scientific evidence"

http://www.gia.edu/gems-gemology/winter-2015-characterization-tarnish-spots-chinese-high-purity-gold-jewelry

And by the way, NCS removes corrosion all the time...that is what they do.  The key point is not to pay twice for the same service by protecting your coins from these mishaps.  All of my gold coins are spot free all the time while being protected by Intercept. N66 N66 N66

Offline Honus

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Re: Option to ncs only?
« Reply #56 on: October 06, 2016, 01:07:39 PM »
I certainly hope Copper is not added to gold coins.....not sure what mint you buy from.  

Well, we could start with the US mints, and go from there.  The $20 Liberty is just one of many examples of gold coins which include copper in the mixture, not as an impurity.  The $20 Liberty is 90% gold, 10% copper.   The Krugerrand is another coin with copper in the mixture - 8.33% copper.  I could keep going, but it shouldn't be necessary.

I've already posted the link earlier in this thread, I'm not going to post it again, but this is in the very first paragraph of that NGC article:

"Known in the coin business as "copper spots," this term pretty much sums up their nature. These spots and streaks are caused by concentrations of copper amid the overall gold composition."

Carbon can be deposited on a gold coin, accidentally of course, in myriad ways.  Mint employee sneezes near coin, sneeze ejects mucous, mucous is composed of many things including sugar, sugar is based on carbon.  Not complicated.

All of this is beside the point...it doesn't matter what links I post, it doesn't matter that actual mints in actual countries with actual employees have put copper into actual gold coins.  You're trying to sell a product based on fear and the greater the fear you can create the better your financial situation.  I don't begrudge anyone making a living, and as I've said I use your products, but there are times to stay with a discussion and invest one's time and then there are situations where it's best to bow out and invest the time elsewhere.    For now, I'm opting for the latter.  This thread is all yours.
Eric Liquori
Anvil Fine Wares
www.anvilfinewares.com

Offline SANDAC

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Re: Option to ncs only?
« Reply #57 on: October 06, 2016, 06:41:12 PM »
I do have a 1985 1oz gold that has a pretty nasty looking spot.  It is still in OMP and is from a 10-coin sheet I purchased 20 years ago.  A few of them were submitted to NGC and graded MS68/69.  This is the only one in the sheet with spots.  I like to hear you guys' opinions.  It is in my possession and I can take more pictures if you like.  BTW, the white balance is properly compensated so the color is accurate representation of the real coin.