Author Topic: Option to ncs only?  (Read 12530 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline silberschatzimsee

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 112
  • Karma: 4
Re: Option to ncs only?
« Reply #30 on: July 06, 2016, 03:13:40 PM »
ahh ok, didnt know that. But interessting that it seems that there are many variables to milk-spotting and not only one.

Offline KeepOnTrying!

  • Supporter
  • Trade Count: (+23)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1776
  • Karma: 56
  • Gender: Male
Re: Option to ncs only?
« Reply #31 on: September 28, 2016, 09:31:32 AM »
This article suggests that the longer a gold coin is left with the spots the greater the chance for permanent surface damage. Has anyone had that experience?

https://www.ngccoin.com/news/article/5516/
KeepOnTrying and Never Give Up!
That lion is also after you!

Offline 1668Chris

  • Supporter
  • Trade Count: (+11)
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 723
  • Karma: 37
    • Coin Armour
Re: Option to ncs only?
« Reply #32 on: September 28, 2016, 10:54:26 AM »
This is true.  Corrosion starts on the surface of the coin but can easily penetrate the surface if not remedied or the process of corrosion is slowed or halted.  I have examples somewhere, but I have to look for them. 

Keep in mind the impurities in gold that cause copper spots are found throughout the coin, not just on the surface.

Offline Honus

  • Supporter
  • Trade Count: (+4)
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 445
  • Karma: 38
    • Anvil Fine Wares
Re: Option to ncs only?
« Reply #33 on: September 28, 2016, 02:06:29 PM »
I may get flamed for this, but until someone shows me an example of a coin being damaged permanently by copper spots, I can't escape the thought that the main purpose of that article is to sell conservation services.  I'm not saying there aren't plenty of chemicals and environmental factors that can damage coins, I'm only saying that I don't believe copper spots fall into that category.  If I'm wrong, and you've seen this for yourself, please post photos showing the coin with copper spots and then subsequent photos of the coin damaged permanently from those same copper spots.   All I can speak from is my own personal experience, having removed copper spots from coins 130+ years old and coins from multiple countries, mints, and of varied ages (all it takes to remove them is focused heat, no physical contact is required).   I've never seen an instance where there was any lasting damage from the spot after the spot was removed.  If the retort would then be that enough time hadn't passed, and the damage would happen "eventually", I'd ask how many decades or centuries it would take.   To be clear, I've used NCS many times and I'm not debating the value of conservation, or the importance of protecting coins from dangerous environmental conditions, only that I'm skeptical of any attempt to liken copper spots to mold spores on a slice of bread.
Eric Liquori
Anvil Fine Wares
www.anvilfinewares.com

Offline jc888888888

  • Supporter
  • Trade Count: (+14)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1285
  • Karma: 22
Re: Option to ncs only?
« Reply #34 on: September 28, 2016, 04:14:32 PM »
100%  AGREED  with Honus    ,many very valuable US gold pieces in the Smithsonian  have copper spots ..we are talking about million dollar coins  you would think they would remove them if they thought they damage the priceless coins the museum has.

Offline 1668Chris

  • Supporter
  • Trade Count: (+11)
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 723
  • Karma: 37
    • Coin Armour
Re: Option to ncs only?
« Reply #35 on: September 28, 2016, 08:01:31 PM »
FWIW I have personally seen a gold coin where the corrosion went below the surface.  That being said, copper spots are corrosion and the process won't stop unless measures are taken.  It is quite possible the Smithsonian uses some level of protection to halt the corrosion process...in fact it would not surprise me.

Additionally, copper spots detract from the eye appeal and also lower the grade of a coin.  The spots result from impurities in gold which are throughout the coin.  So if there is corrosion on the surface it can follow the path of least resistance below the surface to the next impurity.  IMHO long term preservation is paramount to any coin collector.  Proper preservation cost is a minor fraction of the underlying asset.   Those gold 70's will no longer be 70's with copper spots.

If you are a dealer, you really would not care since the coins are not in your possession long enough.

Offline 1668Chris

  • Supporter
  • Trade Count: (+11)
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 723
  • Karma: 37
    • Coin Armour
Re: Option to ncs only?
« Reply #36 on: September 28, 2016, 08:03:57 PM »
The Boston Museum definitely uses some level of protection....looks like intercept!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z51IKPh3rbQ


Offline Honus

  • Supporter
  • Trade Count: (+4)
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 445
  • Karma: 38
    • Anvil Fine Wares
Re: Option to ncs only?
« Reply #37 on: September 28, 2016, 08:36:08 PM »
FWIW I have personally seen a gold coin where the corrosion went below the surface.  That being said, copper spots are corrosion and the process won't stop unless measures are taken.  It is quite possible the Smithsonian uses some level of protection to halt the corrosion process...in fact it would not surprise me.

Additionally, copper spots detract from the eye appeal and also lower the grade of a coin.  The spots result from impurities in gold which are throughout the coin.  So if there is corrosion on the surface it can follow the path of least resistance below the surface to the next impurity.  IMHO long term preservation is paramount to any coin collector.  Proper preservation cost is a minor fraction of the underlying asset.   Those gold 70's will no longer be 70's with copper spots.

If you are a dealer, you really would not care since the coins are not in your possession long enough.

Chris, I'm sure we've all seen gold coins where the corrosion went below the surface.  There's no debate that gold coins can corrode.  The debate would be whether copper spots would be considered "corrosion".  Impurities, yes.  Corrosion, I'm not willing to concede that.  And I absolutely disagree that the process as you put it won't stop unless measures are taken - that's just too broad a statement.   That statement presupposes that whatever causes the copper spots is definitively corrosive to the surface, and there's no scientific evidence that I've seen that establishes that. 

It is also absolutely not true that copper spots lower the grade of a coin, and in fact NGC has published articles to this effect, that copper spots will not definitively cause a coin to receive a lower grade.  I'm surprised you would even make that claim.   

But just for fun, let's say you're correct and I'm wrong about all of it, and copper spots are corrosive AND they run throughout the composition of the coin.  Given that conservation only operates on the surface of the coin, and does nothing for the underlying interior composition, if you're correct that impurities within the coin are corrosive then you're also saying by default that eventually all these coins will go the way of vampires in the sunlight and corrode from the inside out until they're ruined.   I don't believe that's true and I think I'm safe going out on a limb that you don't believe that either. 

Also - and I say this with all due respect - you sell products meant to prevent the corrosion you describe, so it's in your financial interest for people to fear copper spots. 
Eric Liquori
Anvil Fine Wares
www.anvilfinewares.com

Offline 1668Chris

  • Supporter
  • Trade Count: (+11)
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 723
  • Karma: 37
    • Coin Armour
Re: Option to ncs only?
« Reply #38 on: September 28, 2016, 09:00:51 PM »
Chris, I'm sure we've all seen gold coins where the corrosion went below the surface.  There's no debate that gold coins can corrode.  The debate would be whether copper spots would be considered "corrosion".  Impurities, yes.  Corrosion, I'm not willing to concede that.  And I absolutely disagree that the process as you put it won't stop unless measures are taken - that's just too broad a statement.   That statement presupposes that whatever causes the copper spots is definitively corrosive to the surface, and there's no scientific evidence that I've seen that establishes that. 

It is also absolutely not true that copper spots lower the grade of a coin, and in fact NGC has published articles to this effect, that copper spots will not definitively cause a coin to receive a lower grade.  I'm surprised you would even make that claim.   



It amazes me that collectors spend tens of thousands of dollars on coin collections but don't take the time to understand proper preservation techniques. 

Offline Honus

  • Supporter
  • Trade Count: (+4)
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 445
  • Karma: 38
    • Anvil Fine Wares
Re: Option to ncs only?
« Reply #39 on: September 28, 2016, 09:17:00 PM »
It amazes me that collectors spend tens of thousands of dollars on coin collections but don't take the time to understand proper preservation techniques. 

You have no idea what's in my collection or what steps I've taken to "preserve" it.   In fact, many of my coins are in your bags.   

When you have scientific information that disproves anything I've said, I'll be happy to continue.
Eric Liquori
Anvil Fine Wares
www.anvilfinewares.com

Offline jc888888888

  • Supporter
  • Trade Count: (+14)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1285
  • Karma: 22
Re: Option to ncs only?
« Reply #40 on: September 29, 2016, 06:21:31 AM »
FWIW I have personally seen a gold coin where the corrosion went below the surface.  That being said, copper spots are corrosion and the process won't stop unless measures are taken.  It is quite possible the Smithsonian uses some level of protection to halt the corrosion process...in fact it would not surprise me.

Additionally, copper spots detract from the eye appeal and also lower the grade of a coin.  The spots result from impurities in gold which are throughout the coin.  So if there is corrosion on the surface it can follow the path of least resistance below the surface to the next impurity.  IMHO long term preservation is paramount to any coin collector.  Proper preservation cost is a minor fraction of the underlying asset.   Those gold 70's will no longer be 70's with copper spots.

If you are a dealer, you really would not care since the coins are not in your possession long enough.

I personally NCS all my coins that need it ....the point I am making is copper spots are easy to remove and I do not believe they are harmful I have US gold pieces that I have had for 45 years with copper spots laying in a drawer for 35 years in a sock before graded by pcgs (and where owned by my father for 40 years before that) copper spots where not removed.......they look exactly the same way they did 40 years ago ...gold is an inert stable medal... NCS is selling something.......I am not saying to not NCS or protect your coins .. I just would not lose sleep over copper spots.

Offline jc888888888

  • Supporter
  • Trade Count: (+14)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1285
  • Karma: 22
Re: Option to ncs only?
« Reply #41 on: September 29, 2016, 06:36:33 AM »
Chris, I'm sure we've all seen gold coins where the corrosion went below the surface.  There's no debate that gold coins can corrode.  The debate would be whether copper spots would be considered "corrosion".  Impurities, yes.  Corrosion, I'm not willing to concede that.  And I absolutely disagree that the process as you put it won't stop unless measures are taken - that's just too broad a statement.   That statement presupposes that whatever causes the copper spots is definitively corrosive to the surface, and there's no scientific evidence that I've seen that establishes that. 

It is also absolutely not true that copper spots lower the grade of a coin, and in fact NGC has published articles to this effect, that copper spots will not definitively cause a coin to receive a lower grade.  I'm surprised you would even make that claim.   

But just for fun, let's say you're correct and I'm wrong about all of it, and copper spots are corrosive AND they run throughout the composition of the coin.  Given that conservation only operates on the surface of the coin, and does nothing for the underlying interior composition, if you're correct that impurities within the coin are corrosive then you're also saying by default that eventually all these coins will go the way of vampires in the sunlight and corrode from the inside out until they're ruined.   I don't believe that's true and I think I'm safe going out on a limb that you don't believe that either. 

Also - and I say this with all due respect - you sell products meant to prevent the corrosion you describe, so it's in your financial interest for people to fear copper spots. 

Exactly NCS conservation and intercept bag NO WAY WILL STOP THE REFORMING OF COPPER SPOTS if they want to appear again .I think intercept bags are a good product and have many of my silver higher value panda,s in them .....I have a 1/10 gold panda that was NCS 2010 ms70  I was looking thru and organizing my collection ...guess what ?  I found a copper spot ..guess what it was sitting inside an intercept bag ...it is part of a 5 coin ms70 set .. and has been stored in a climate contrlled bank vault ... BTW I am a collector:)

Offline jc888888888

  • Supporter
  • Trade Count: (+14)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1285
  • Karma: 22
Re: Option to ncs only?
« Reply #42 on: September 29, 2016, 06:37:39 AM »
i keep all my complete gold sets in Chris,s bag,s BTW

Offline jc888888888

  • Supporter
  • Trade Count: (+14)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1285
  • Karma: 22
Re: Option to ncs only?
« Reply #43 on: September 29, 2016, 06:45:49 AM »
here is the truth ANY CORROSION on gold panda,s was likely formed from being in PVC laden OMP ..... copper spots are harmless IMHO ...... if you are holding early panda,s in OMP then you are making a big mistake if they are part of your long term collection ..NCS them and grade them and if you like put them in an airtight bag like Chris,s product ... most folks dont want to do that as they rightfully think OMP adds value .....but it is at the cost of damaging the coin ..the longer it sits the more you risk damage ....

Offline jc888888888

  • Supporter
  • Trade Count: (+14)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1285
  • Karma: 22
Re: Option to ncs only?
« Reply #44 on: September 29, 2016, 06:50:56 AM »
look how these coins where stored  LOL  for decades :) and look at how they look cleaned up  :) ANY QUESTIONS???  PVC LADEN OMP IS THE CULPRIT OF DAMAGED PANDA,S
http://saddleridgehoard.com/