Author Topic: Option to ncs only?  (Read 11396 times)

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Offline moosician

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Option to ncs only?
« on: April 05, 2016, 09:26:17 AM »
Sent a red spotted coin already in ngc slab for ncs only but was told that coin has to be regraded and previous grade is not guaranteed.
This is for ncs ngc service in China.
Is this so in the US also?
What if the coin comes back in a lower grade? i think that is a big risk. Even riskier if sending in a 70 coin?
Can you guys please help?
Thanks

Offline KeepOnTrying!

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Re: Option to ncs only?
« Reply #1 on: April 05, 2016, 10:16:39 AM »
I don't think NGC can guarantee maintenance of the same grade if the red spots occurred after previous grading and encapsulation. It is possible that the grade could drop to 68-69 after conservation. Yet you cannot sell the red spotted ms70 as it is and get the full price. Any experienced buyer of this coin will pay for it as if it is of lower grade.

I have a pcgs ms70 1/20oz with lots of red spots. I plan to replace it with a new ms70 to maintain the grade of the set it belongs to. Somewhere along the line I will send it to NCS/NGC and take what I get!

Goodluck.
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Offline Mirkkanen

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Re: Option to ncs only?
« Reply #2 on: April 05, 2016, 12:17:26 PM »
I just sent in a high value (1999 serif 1) gold panda that was riddled with red spots, and which was in a 69 holder. I had it conserved and it came back to me as a 69. Didn't feel risky. I would just go for it, unless you see flaws besides red spots that you are concerned about.

Offline Deepwater

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Re: Option to ncs only?
« Reply #3 on: April 05, 2016, 12:27:35 PM »
What is the reason to remove red spots if it is in the 69 holder? The red spots will come back due to the copper impurities.

Offline KeepOnTrying!

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Re: Option to ncs only?
« Reply #4 on: April 05, 2016, 12:28:03 PM »
I believe the question here is if an MS70 gold coin with red spots can be guaranteed to maintain the MS70 grade after conservation. I don't think this can be guaranteed.
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Offline KeepOnTrying!

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Re: Option to ncs only?
« Reply #5 on: April 05, 2016, 01:13:15 PM »
There is a wider range of tolerance and interpretation of coin features when assigning the grade of 68-69 compared to 70. More than one grader is required to assign the 70 grade to make it even more objective. Even if not acknowledged publicly a coin’s history could be one of the weighting factors. This notwithstanding it is still possible but not probable to get a 70 following conservation in the circumstances described above but I wouldn’t bet a panda coin on it!
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Offline Mirkkanen

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Re: Option to ncs only?
« Reply #6 on: April 05, 2016, 01:15:40 PM »
Why remove red spots and regrade? Because no intelligent buyer will offer 70 money for a coin that looks like a 68 or 69. You'll be stuck with a coin that is illiquid unless you sell it as a lower grade coin.

I hate to say it, but maybe your coin really isn't a 70 if you are afraid that once you get the spots removed, it will come back as a 69. In that case, you might as well sell it for whatever you can get for it and find a nicer example of the same coin. There is no guarantee that your 70 will come back a 70. Grading is a gamble. Are you a gambler?


Offline silverpv

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Re: Option to ncs only?
« Reply #7 on: April 05, 2016, 01:36:13 PM »
I sent in a 99 SD 1/10 with spots.. It was MS69 and came back MS70 after the regrade. I will be sending in a high dollar MS70 with a redspot for a regrade. There's no way, anyone else would consider this a 70 because it has the spot. We'll see if it does come down if the price guarantee works or if it is regraded a MS70. I will be calling NGC/NCS about this because I plan on sending in a few coins later in the week.

You do not have the option to NCS only. I did this with a few coins and the invoices were all changed to regrade at NGC on arrival.

Edit:  i just spoke with them. If you think its overgraded, you can send it in for appearance review. If its undergraded it goes for a regrade. If it is an MS70, it goes for appearance review and they will check to see what your options are.

Offline Mirkkanen

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Re: Option to ncs only?
« Reply #8 on: April 05, 2016, 01:49:39 PM »
In the past, PCGS has offered a conservation-only service (without requiring grading). I do not know if this is still an option.

Offline Wafdawg

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Re: Option to ncs only?
« Reply #9 on: April 05, 2016, 03:27:29 PM »
What are NCS costs?  I've never sent a coin in for NCS.  I recall it's something like 4% of the stated value of the coin.  Is that correct?  Also, I'm curious when you send in coins to grade, what are you valuing your coins at?  The coin's worth in OMP, as a MS69, or coin specific?  If you think your coin is a 70 is that the value you assign to it? Does anyone think if you "undervalue" your coin then you won't get a 70?

Offline Mirkkanen

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Re: Option to ncs only?
« Reply #10 on: April 05, 2016, 03:33:25 PM »
What are NCS costs?  I've never sent a coin in for NCS.  I recall it's something like 4% of the stated value of the coin.  Is that correct?  Also, I'm curious when you send in coins to grade, what are you valuing your coins at?  The coin's worth in OMP, as a MS69, or coin specific?  If you think your coin is a 70 is that the value you assign to it? Does anyone think if you "undervalue" your coin then you won't get a 70?

silverpv will be able to answer all of these questions.

As for how I value the coins, I usually use OMP value. NCS costs depend on the value of the coin being conserved, as far as I know. A mroe experienced submitter can expand on this. 

"Does anyone think if you "undervalue" your coin then you won't get a 70?"
I do not think this, based on experience.

Offline silverpv

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Re: Option to ncs only?
« Reply #11 on: April 05, 2016, 04:02:40 PM »
What are NCS costs?  I've never sent a coin in for NCS.  I recall it's something like 4% of the stated value of the coin.  Is that correct?  Also, I'm curious when you send in coins to grade, what are you valuing your coins at?  The coin's worth in OMP, as a MS69, or coin specific?  If you think your coin is a 70 is that the value you assign to it? Does anyone think if you "undervalue" your coin then you won't get a 70?

NCS costs are 5% standard ($25 minimum + NGC Tier)  or $28 for NCS+NGC upto $300 (5 coin minimum) $50 for NCS+NGC upto $2k (5 coin minimum). The value should be your replacement cost and is specifically used for insurance purposes on return shipping. If the package is lost, your stated value is what you will get back. So, technically you don't need to report the actual market value but you can do your cost. However, if its lost, so is that extra value. The value has nothing to do with the expected grade, I doubt graders see the value of the coin. I undervalue my coins from time to time, like my 94, I will be sending it in under the $300 tier even though its ~$400 replacement cost. I paid under $300, so it belongs at $300 to me.  As long as I get back what I paid, I'm alright. I submitted another coin that was higher dollar in the lower tier and they didn't have any issues. The only issue is the stress when USPS can't find your package.

The regrade is if you have a 68/69 and you think it'll bump up to a 69/70. The appearance review is if you have a 70 and it might not be due to a spot. I'm testing the appearance review process next and see if they'll remove the spot and keep it a 70 or what may happen if not. Along with the silver NCS tests I'm doing on Youtube.

Offline KeepOnTrying!

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Re: Option to ncs only?
« Reply #12 on: April 05, 2016, 04:12:36 PM »
In addition to the above comments NCS reserves the right to revalue your coins if they feel that it is too low. If you submit larger diameter coins or medals you'll have to pay for an oversize folder. There are additional fees for things like scratch proof slabs, photos, variety designation Etc.
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Offline silverpv

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Re: Option to ncs only?
« Reply #13 on: April 05, 2016, 04:13:47 PM »
In addition to the above comments NCS reserves the right to revalue your coins if they feel that it is too low. If you submit larger diameter coins or medals you'll have to pay for an oversize folder. There are additional fees for things like scratch proof slabs, photos, variety designation Etc.

This is true.. You can't undervalue lower than melt but the premium is up for judgement.

Offline moosician

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Re: Option to ncs only?
« Reply #14 on: April 05, 2016, 08:42:57 PM »
Thanks for the replies.

I believe the question here is if an MS70 gold coin with red spots can be guaranteed to maintain the MS70 grade after conservation. I don't think this can be guaranteed.

You hit the spot.

I find it hard to believe that ngc cannot guarantee the original grade after ncs, or at least just ncs the coin without regrade. If thats the case, it means buying a 70 gold coin is a big risk because red spots might develop. It is possible to find another 70 specimen if the 70 population is not small but what if its a very low pop coin or even the only 70? There is a big chance that the only 70 coin will regrade lower thus dissapear... hmm...

Offline 1668Chris

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Re: Option to ncs only?
« Reply #15 on: April 05, 2016, 09:52:11 PM »
Thanks for the replies.

You hit the spot.

I find it hard to believe that ngc cannot guarantee the original grade after ncs, or at least just ncs the coin without regrade. If thats the case, it means buying a 70 gold coin is a big risk because red spots might develop. It is possible to find another 70 specimen if the 70 population is not small but what if its a very low pop coin or even the only 70? There is a big chance that the only 70 coin will regrade lower thus dissapear... hmm...

This is why it is so important to properly protect your coins from developing spots.  All coins run back thru NCS for spot removal have to be regraded.  Not worth the risk vs proper protection

Offline Tao-Panda

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Re: Option to ncs only?
« Reply #16 on: July 06, 2016, 05:42:09 AM »
As far as I know, the grade is guarantee.
If there is a risk to damage the coin during restoration process, NCS does not remove the coin from the slab and ship it back to the owner.

Offline jc888888888

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Re: Option to ncs only?
« Reply #17 on: July 06, 2016, 12:24:58 PM »
I believe the question here is if an MS70 gold coin with red spots can be guaranteed to maintain the MS70 grade after conservation. I don't think this can be guaranteed.

you guys are approaching this all wrong!!!! :)    I have a rarer 1oz gold Krugarrand (special addition)   pf 70 ultra cameo, it was in an NGC holder  had a big red spot . so as you guys know NGC guarantees the grade   ...I sent the coin in under what they call GRADE REVIEW  saying how could you grade this coin ms70 with that big red spot on it ??   keep in mind they guarantee the grade ...they have 2 choices downgrade and pay you the difference :)   or conserve the red spot out which is easy for them to do reholder and maintain the grade... ALL FOR FREE:)  they even refunded my shipping to them:)   if you have a 70 or 69 in an ngc holder with copper spots ...  gold we are talking about here try it :) you will be pleasantly surprised .... now of course white spot silver coins are a no go as they have a disclaimer in place. thanks joe 

Offline jc888888888

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Re: Option to ncs only?
« Reply #18 on: July 06, 2016, 12:32:00 PM »
Appearance review is what it is termed

Offline jc888888888

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Re: Option to ncs only?
« Reply #19 on: July 06, 2016, 12:33:46 PM »

Offline jc888888888

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Re: Option to ncs only?
« Reply #20 on: July 06, 2016, 12:35:37 PM »
Coin Conservation. NGC may also, at its sole reasonable discretion, have a Coin submitted under this Appearance Review service professionally conserved by it or an affiliated company if NGC believes that doing so can improve its fitness for the grade originally assigned. There will be no charges assessed to the submitter for conservation service performed in conjunction with an Appearance Review.

Offline jc888888888

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Re: Option to ncs only?
« Reply #21 on: July 06, 2016, 12:35:50 PM »
from ngc

Offline madronya

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Re: Option to ncs only?
« Reply #22 on: July 06, 2016, 12:56:00 PM »
There is a caveat in the NGC guarantee:

"In certain Coins, natural environmental deterioration may cause undesired features to appear, such as (but not limited to) spotting, hazing, PVC and corrosion. Spots, for example, can occur on modern silver Coins as a result of the minting process or other natural conditions over which NGC has no control. Therefore, the NGC Guarantee does not apply to Coins exhibiting any of these issues."

Sounds like white spots on silver may not be covered,  but red spots on gold may be?



Offline 1668Chris

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Re: Option to ncs only?
« Reply #23 on: July 06, 2016, 01:09:30 PM »
you guys are approaching this all wrong!!!! :)    I have a rarer 1oz gold Krugarrand (special addition)   pf 70 ultra cameo, it was in an NGC holder  had a big red spot . so as you guys know NGC guarantees the grade   ...I sent the coin in under what they call GRADE REVIEW  saying how could you grade this coin ms70 with that big red spot on it ??   keep in mind they guarantee the grade ...they have 2 choices downgrade and pay you the difference :)   or conserve the red spot out which is easy for them to do reholder and maintain the grade... ALL FOR FREE:)  they even refunded my shipping to them:)   if you have a 70 or 69 in an ngc holder with copper spots ...  gold we are talking about here try it :) you will be pleasantly surprised .... now of course white spot silver coins are a no go as they have a disclaimer in place. thanks joe 

Grade guarantee does not work if the coin develops spots whether copper spots on gold or white spots on silver if they develop after grading. The coin must be sent to NCS for removal and the coin is sent back thru the grading mill.  Your grade will be dependent on the condition of the coin after NCS and at the will of the grader. 

Offline Honus

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Re: Option to ncs only?
« Reply #24 on: July 06, 2016, 01:45:40 PM »
Great thread guys, tons of good info.  I'm sure this question has been asked before, but if you don't mind I'll ask again...

Do we know for sure - as in, has anyone ever been told directly by someone who does grading for NGC or PCGS - that copper spots affect the grade?   To be specific, I'm talking only about reddish-colored copper spots, nothing else that might qualify as a surface impurity but is something other than what we consider run of the mill copper spotting.

I've submitted US coins with copper spotting and have always been elated with the grade, and have seen pandas submitted with spotting and still come back MS69.
Eric Liquori
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Offline jc888888888

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Re: Option to ncs only?
« Reply #25 on: July 06, 2016, 02:19:02 PM »
Grade guarantee does not work if the coin develops spots whether copper spots on gold or white spots on silver if they develop after grading. The coin must be sent to NCS for removal and the coin is sent back thru the grading mill.  Your grade will be dependent on the condition of the coin after NCS and at the will of the grader. 
[/quot
There is a caveat in the NGC guarantee:

NGC is very specific about white spots on sliver they disclaim them on the NCS website  ..but copper spots on gold  I have had good experience with NGC on this apperance review   keep in mind  NGC wants to help customers and preserve the integrity of their grading system  they do not want poor looking 70 graded coins floating around in their holders.. and it is very cheap good customer relations  .............   

"In certain Coins, natural environmental deterioration may cause undesired features to appear, such as (but not limited to) spotting, hazing, PVC and corrosion. Spots, for example, can occur on modern silver Coins as a result of the minting process or other natural conditions over which NGC has no control. Therefore, the NGC Guarantee does not apply to Coins exhibiting any of these issues."

Sounds like white spots on silver may not be covered,  but red spots on gold may be?




Offline jc888888888

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Re: Option to ncs only?
« Reply #26 on: July 06, 2016, 02:19:33 PM »
NGC is very specific about white spots on sliver they disclaim them on the NCS website  ..but copper spots on gold  I have had good experience with NGC on this apperance review   keep in mind  NGC wants to help customers and preserve the integrity of their grading system  they do not want poor looking 70 graded coins floating around in their holders.. and it is very cheap good customer relations  .............   

Offline KeepOnTrying!

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Re: Option to ncs only?
« Reply #27 on: July 06, 2016, 02:54:18 PM »
I guess there is still no reliable method for removing white spots and haze from silver coins?

http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=12247.0
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Offline silberschatzimsee

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Offline KeepOnTrying!

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Offline silberschatzimsee

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Re: Option to ncs only?
« Reply #30 on: July 06, 2016, 03:13:40 PM »
ahh ok, didnt know that. But interessting that it seems that there are many variables to milk-spotting and not only one.

Offline KeepOnTrying!

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Re: Option to ncs only?
« Reply #31 on: September 28, 2016, 09:31:32 AM »
This article suggests that the longer a gold coin is left with the spots the greater the chance for permanent surface damage. Has anyone had that experience?

https://www.ngccoin.com/news/article/5516/
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Offline 1668Chris

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Re: Option to ncs only?
« Reply #32 on: September 28, 2016, 10:54:26 AM »
This is true.  Corrosion starts on the surface of the coin but can easily penetrate the surface if not remedied or the process of corrosion is slowed or halted.  I have examples somewhere, but I have to look for them. 

Keep in mind the impurities in gold that cause copper spots are found throughout the coin, not just on the surface.

Offline Honus

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Re: Option to ncs only?
« Reply #33 on: September 28, 2016, 02:06:29 PM »
I may get flamed for this, but until someone shows me an example of a coin being damaged permanently by copper spots, I can't escape the thought that the main purpose of that article is to sell conservation services.  I'm not saying there aren't plenty of chemicals and environmental factors that can damage coins, I'm only saying that I don't believe copper spots fall into that category.  If I'm wrong, and you've seen this for yourself, please post photos showing the coin with copper spots and then subsequent photos of the coin damaged permanently from those same copper spots.   All I can speak from is my own personal experience, having removed copper spots from coins 130+ years old and coins from multiple countries, mints, and of varied ages (all it takes to remove them is focused heat, no physical contact is required).   I've never seen an instance where there was any lasting damage from the spot after the spot was removed.  If the retort would then be that enough time hadn't passed, and the damage would happen "eventually", I'd ask how many decades or centuries it would take.   To be clear, I've used NCS many times and I'm not debating the value of conservation, or the importance of protecting coins from dangerous environmental conditions, only that I'm skeptical of any attempt to liken copper spots to mold spores on a slice of bread.
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Offline jc888888888

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Re: Option to ncs only?
« Reply #34 on: September 28, 2016, 04:14:32 PM »
100%  AGREED  with Honus    ,many very valuable US gold pieces in the Smithsonian  have copper spots ..we are talking about million dollar coins  you would think they would remove them if they thought they damage the priceless coins the museum has.

Offline 1668Chris

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Re: Option to ncs only?
« Reply #35 on: September 28, 2016, 08:01:31 PM »
FWIW I have personally seen a gold coin where the corrosion went below the surface.  That being said, copper spots are corrosion and the process won't stop unless measures are taken.  It is quite possible the Smithsonian uses some level of protection to halt the corrosion process...in fact it would not surprise me.

Additionally, copper spots detract from the eye appeal and also lower the grade of a coin.  The spots result from impurities in gold which are throughout the coin.  So if there is corrosion on the surface it can follow the path of least resistance below the surface to the next impurity.  IMHO long term preservation is paramount to any coin collector.  Proper preservation cost is a minor fraction of the underlying asset.   Those gold 70's will no longer be 70's with copper spots.

If you are a dealer, you really would not care since the coins are not in your possession long enough.

Offline 1668Chris

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Re: Option to ncs only?
« Reply #36 on: September 28, 2016, 08:03:57 PM »
The Boston Museum definitely uses some level of protection....looks like intercept!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z51IKPh3rbQ


Offline Honus

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Re: Option to ncs only?
« Reply #37 on: September 28, 2016, 08:36:08 PM »
FWIW I have personally seen a gold coin where the corrosion went below the surface.  That being said, copper spots are corrosion and the process won't stop unless measures are taken.  It is quite possible the Smithsonian uses some level of protection to halt the corrosion process...in fact it would not surprise me.

Additionally, copper spots detract from the eye appeal and also lower the grade of a coin.  The spots result from impurities in gold which are throughout the coin.  So if there is corrosion on the surface it can follow the path of least resistance below the surface to the next impurity.  IMHO long term preservation is paramount to any coin collector.  Proper preservation cost is a minor fraction of the underlying asset.   Those gold 70's will no longer be 70's with copper spots.

If you are a dealer, you really would not care since the coins are not in your possession long enough.

Chris, I'm sure we've all seen gold coins where the corrosion went below the surface.  There's no debate that gold coins can corrode.  The debate would be whether copper spots would be considered "corrosion".  Impurities, yes.  Corrosion, I'm not willing to concede that.  And I absolutely disagree that the process as you put it won't stop unless measures are taken - that's just too broad a statement.   That statement presupposes that whatever causes the copper spots is definitively corrosive to the surface, and there's no scientific evidence that I've seen that establishes that. 

It is also absolutely not true that copper spots lower the grade of a coin, and in fact NGC has published articles to this effect, that copper spots will not definitively cause a coin to receive a lower grade.  I'm surprised you would even make that claim.   

But just for fun, let's say you're correct and I'm wrong about all of it, and copper spots are corrosive AND they run throughout the composition of the coin.  Given that conservation only operates on the surface of the coin, and does nothing for the underlying interior composition, if you're correct that impurities within the coin are corrosive then you're also saying by default that eventually all these coins will go the way of vampires in the sunlight and corrode from the inside out until they're ruined.   I don't believe that's true and I think I'm safe going out on a limb that you don't believe that either. 

Also - and I say this with all due respect - you sell products meant to prevent the corrosion you describe, so it's in your financial interest for people to fear copper spots. 
Eric Liquori
Anvil Fine Wares
www.anvilfinewares.com

Offline 1668Chris

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Re: Option to ncs only?
« Reply #38 on: September 28, 2016, 09:00:51 PM »
Chris, I'm sure we've all seen gold coins where the corrosion went below the surface.  There's no debate that gold coins can corrode.  The debate would be whether copper spots would be considered "corrosion".  Impurities, yes.  Corrosion, I'm not willing to concede that.  And I absolutely disagree that the process as you put it won't stop unless measures are taken - that's just too broad a statement.   That statement presupposes that whatever causes the copper spots is definitively corrosive to the surface, and there's no scientific evidence that I've seen that establishes that. 

It is also absolutely not true that copper spots lower the grade of a coin, and in fact NGC has published articles to this effect, that copper spots will not definitively cause a coin to receive a lower grade.  I'm surprised you would even make that claim.   



It amazes me that collectors spend tens of thousands of dollars on coin collections but don't take the time to understand proper preservation techniques. 

Offline Honus

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Re: Option to ncs only?
« Reply #39 on: September 28, 2016, 09:17:00 PM »
It amazes me that collectors spend tens of thousands of dollars on coin collections but don't take the time to understand proper preservation techniques. 

You have no idea what's in my collection or what steps I've taken to "preserve" it.   In fact, many of my coins are in your bags.   

When you have scientific information that disproves anything I've said, I'll be happy to continue.
Eric Liquori
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Offline jc888888888

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Re: Option to ncs only?
« Reply #40 on: September 29, 2016, 06:21:31 AM »
FWIW I have personally seen a gold coin where the corrosion went below the surface.  That being said, copper spots are corrosion and the process won't stop unless measures are taken.  It is quite possible the Smithsonian uses some level of protection to halt the corrosion process...in fact it would not surprise me.

Additionally, copper spots detract from the eye appeal and also lower the grade of a coin.  The spots result from impurities in gold which are throughout the coin.  So if there is corrosion on the surface it can follow the path of least resistance below the surface to the next impurity.  IMHO long term preservation is paramount to any coin collector.  Proper preservation cost is a minor fraction of the underlying asset.   Those gold 70's will no longer be 70's with copper spots.

If you are a dealer, you really would not care since the coins are not in your possession long enough.

I personally NCS all my coins that need it ....the point I am making is copper spots are easy to remove and I do not believe they are harmful I have US gold pieces that I have had for 45 years with copper spots laying in a drawer for 35 years in a sock before graded by pcgs (and where owned by my father for 40 years before that) copper spots where not removed.......they look exactly the same way they did 40 years ago ...gold is an inert stable medal... NCS is selling something.......I am not saying to not NCS or protect your coins .. I just would not lose sleep over copper spots.

Offline jc888888888

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Re: Option to ncs only?
« Reply #41 on: September 29, 2016, 06:36:33 AM »
Chris, I'm sure we've all seen gold coins where the corrosion went below the surface.  There's no debate that gold coins can corrode.  The debate would be whether copper spots would be considered "corrosion".  Impurities, yes.  Corrosion, I'm not willing to concede that.  And I absolutely disagree that the process as you put it won't stop unless measures are taken - that's just too broad a statement.   That statement presupposes that whatever causes the copper spots is definitively corrosive to the surface, and there's no scientific evidence that I've seen that establishes that. 

It is also absolutely not true that copper spots lower the grade of a coin, and in fact NGC has published articles to this effect, that copper spots will not definitively cause a coin to receive a lower grade.  I'm surprised you would even make that claim.   

But just for fun, let's say you're correct and I'm wrong about all of it, and copper spots are corrosive AND they run throughout the composition of the coin.  Given that conservation only operates on the surface of the coin, and does nothing for the underlying interior composition, if you're correct that impurities within the coin are corrosive then you're also saying by default that eventually all these coins will go the way of vampires in the sunlight and corrode from the inside out until they're ruined.   I don't believe that's true and I think I'm safe going out on a limb that you don't believe that either. 

Also - and I say this with all due respect - you sell products meant to prevent the corrosion you describe, so it's in your financial interest for people to fear copper spots. 

Exactly NCS conservation and intercept bag NO WAY WILL STOP THE REFORMING OF COPPER SPOTS if they want to appear again .I think intercept bags are a good product and have many of my silver higher value panda,s in them .....I have a 1/10 gold panda that was NCS 2010 ms70  I was looking thru and organizing my collection ...guess what ?  I found a copper spot ..guess what it was sitting inside an intercept bag ...it is part of a 5 coin ms70 set .. and has been stored in a climate contrlled bank vault ... BTW I am a collector:)

Offline jc888888888

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Re: Option to ncs only?
« Reply #42 on: September 29, 2016, 06:37:39 AM »
i keep all my complete gold sets in Chris,s bag,s BTW

Offline jc888888888

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Re: Option to ncs only?
« Reply #43 on: September 29, 2016, 06:45:49 AM »
here is the truth ANY CORROSION on gold panda,s was likely formed from being in PVC laden OMP ..... copper spots are harmless IMHO ...... if you are holding early panda,s in OMP then you are making a big mistake if they are part of your long term collection ..NCS them and grade them and if you like put them in an airtight bag like Chris,s product ... most folks dont want to do that as they rightfully think OMP adds value .....but it is at the cost of damaging the coin ..the longer it sits the more you risk damage ....

Offline jc888888888

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Re: Option to ncs only?
« Reply #44 on: September 29, 2016, 06:50:56 AM »
look how these coins where stored  LOL  for decades :) and look at how they look cleaned up  :) ANY QUESTIONS???  PVC LADEN OMP IS THE CULPRIT OF DAMAGED PANDA,S
http://saddleridgehoard.com/

Offline jc888888888

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Re: Option to ncs only?
« Reply #45 on: September 29, 2016, 07:02:00 AM »
Some of the FINEST KNOW HIGHEST GRADE EXAMPLES of $20 gold pieces stored in metal paint cans  mixed with dirt and rocks for preservation purposes LOL ..some coins worth more than 1 million dollars they went into those cans at the same grade they came out TRUST ME ....anyone who is worried about copper spots or anything else on pure gold coins go back to sleep and stop worrying .. if your coins are sitting in PVC laden omp get a scissors get them out of it , NCS them and hope they are not chemically corroded ..

Offline 1668Chris

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Re: Option to ncs only?
« Reply #46 on: September 29, 2016, 10:16:20 AM »
First of all copper spots are "corrosion".  They result from harmful gases reacting with impurities in gold.  They initially occur on the surface because that is where the chemical reaction takes place.  A coin cannot corrode from the inside out since there is no reaction with these gases.   This type of corrosion is defined as "environmental damage" which is a key term in both the NGC and PCGS guarantee.  It is the same type of environmental damage as toning is is to silver coins.  If you cannot understand this concept then you should not be using Intercept and leave your coins to their vices.

Second copper spots do result in lower grades vs a coin without copper spots.

Third copper spots can be easily removed thru proper conservation.

Fourth, a coin that develops copper spots post conservation and grading will not be the same grade.  To remove the copper spots the coin must be sent back to NGC go back thru conservation for another fee and then back thru grading.  Hence the coin may not receive the same grade it did before.  NGC is very clear about this process.

That is a risk I am not willing to take.

Offline jc888888888

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Re: Option to ncs only?
« Reply #47 on: September 29, 2016, 10:22:51 AM »
 Chris I'm going to start by saying I love your bags they have their place but if anyone thinks that you can stop copper spots from forming by putting your coins in your bags   Directly after an nCS treatment I believe their mistaken  copper spots are formed by impurities in the gold anywhere inside the coin if someone thinks they can stop them from reoccurring or orcurring by surface cleaning a coin and putting it inside a bag it's just simply is not true

Offline Honus

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Re: Option to ncs only?
« Reply #48 on: September 29, 2016, 10:35:41 AM »
First of all copper spots are "corrosion".  They result from harmful gases reacting with impurities in gold.  They initially occur on the surface because that is where the chemical reaction takes place.  A coin cannot corrode from the inside out since there is no reaction with these gases.   This type of corrosion is defined as "environmental damage" which is a key term in both the NGC and PCGS guarantee.  It is the same type of environmental damage as toning is is to silver coins.  If you cannot understand this concept then you should not be using Intercept and leave your coins to their vices.

Second copper spots do result in lower grades vs a coin without copper spots.

Third copper spots can be easily removed thru proper conservation.

Fourth, a coin that develops copper spots post conservation and grading will not be the same grade.  To remove the copper spots the coin must be sent back to NGC go back thru conservation for another fee and then back thru grading.  Hence the coin may not receive the same grade it did before.  NGC is very clear about this process.

That is a risk I am not willing to take.

Copper spots are NOT corrosion, unless you consider the copper that is naturally added to many gold coins "corrosion".   And the "harmful gases" you're referring to - that's oxygen.   But let's just get it straight from the experts:

https://www.ngccoin.com/news/article/1197/gold-coin-grading/

Some key quotes:

"These spots and streaks are caused by concentrations of copper amid the overall gold composition."

"Being more reactive to the atmosphere than gold, these concentrations of copper slowly toned to a deeper red, which, when set against the overall gold color, results in various shades of orange to the eye.

"Understanding how copper spots form helps the knowledgeable collector appreciate that such spotting is a natural consequence of the coin-making process and not something to be alarmed about."

"With their appreciation of an old coin's antique quality, they are not put off by spotting that has occurred as a natural consequence of age"

"In extreme cases of spotting, however, NGC's graders may lower a coin's grade downward if they believe that the spotting diminishes a coin's fitness for a higher grade."

"Only rarely is copper spotting or streaking such an issue that it affects a coin's grade, and to the veteran collector of coins a few colorful blushes may be viewed as an asset. This positive aspect, too, is factored into the NGC grade assigned to each coin."

"To the real connoisseur, however, a vintage gold piece is its own animal, possessed of features and qualities that are unique. NGC recognizes these qualities, and it assigns the correct grade consistently, factoring into the equation such variables as strike, luster, surface marks and, yes, copper spots. So, when you see a beautiful, completely original gold graded by the experts at NGC, remember that the few blushes of coppery toning may be evidence of originality and a badge worn with pride."

Eric Liquori
Anvil Fine Wares
www.anvilfinewares.com

Offline jc888888888

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Re: Option to ncs only?
« Reply #49 on: September 29, 2016, 10:45:21 AM »
I have a  st guadens $20 with copper streaks right across the coin  from 11 oclock till 5  ...I would not clean her if someone paid me too..very pretty  Ill post some pics later

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Re: Option to ncs only?
« Reply #50 on: September 29, 2016, 10:50:29 AM »
I'm not cleaning this either...

http://www.anvilfinewares.com/1990panda.htm

Eric Liquori
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Offline 1668Chris

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Re: Option to ncs only?
« Reply #51 on: October 05, 2016, 01:58:40 PM »
here is a pic of those lovely copper spots turning black with grey in the middle.  Just zoom in on the pic by the lettering.  Looks like corrosion to me.

Offline jc888888888

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Re: Option to ncs only?
« Reply #52 on: October 05, 2016, 08:48:50 PM »
Chris ,I am not trying to be a wise ass here .... if that "corrosion" bothers you and your concerned and it is your coin ..I will take a chance on it  melt plus 5% delivered pp gift ..just PM me regard,s Joe

Offline 1668Chris

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Re: Option to ncs only?
« Reply #53 on: October 05, 2016, 10:05:35 PM »
Sorry not mine ,  just one example I found on eBay today.

Offline Honus

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Re: Option to ncs only?
« Reply #54 on: October 06, 2016, 12:59:27 AM »
Sorry not mine ,  just one example I found on eBay today.

So you've not actually seen this coin in person, and you're just going by photos.  And for all you know, this coin could go to NCS and every one of those spots could come right off, revealing a flawless perfect coin free of whatever you think is corrosion.   And for all you know, those could be carbon spots rather than copper spots, due to a mint employee accidentally sneezing on the coin during packaging, an event and condition that should not be extrapolated to apply to every other coin with spots.
Eric Liquori
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Offline 1668Chris

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Re: Option to ncs only?
« Reply #55 on: October 06, 2016, 09:56:42 AM »
Copper spots are NOT corrosion, unless you consider the copper that is naturally added to many gold coins "corrosion".   And the "harmful gases" you're referring to - that's oxygen.   But let's just get it straight from the experts:



Unfortunately you use terminology or phrases that makes no sense. I certainly hope Copper is not added to gold coins.....not sure what mint you buy from.  Copper may exist as a natural impurity, but it is not the main impurity.  Copper spots are slang in numismatic terminology to describe the color of spots on gold coins.  When in fact that they are the result of a chemical reaction, called Corrosion, which results from impurities in gold, which is mainly silver, which reacts with sulfur in the air, not as you say "oxygen".  O2 is a very stable element.

Also, carbon spots are another slang term to describe the same chemical reaction.  Carbon spots may exist in diamonds but not aware of them existing in gold etc.

Here is just one example of "scientific evidence"

http://www.gia.edu/gems-gemology/winter-2015-characterization-tarnish-spots-chinese-high-purity-gold-jewelry

And by the way, NCS removes corrosion all the time...that is what they do.  The key point is not to pay twice for the same service by protecting your coins from these mishaps.  All of my gold coins are spot free all the time while being protected by Intercept. N66 N66 N66

Offline Honus

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Re: Option to ncs only?
« Reply #56 on: October 06, 2016, 01:07:39 PM »
I certainly hope Copper is not added to gold coins.....not sure what mint you buy from.  

Well, we could start with the US mints, and go from there.  The $20 Liberty is just one of many examples of gold coins which include copper in the mixture, not as an impurity.  The $20 Liberty is 90% gold, 10% copper.   The Krugerrand is another coin with copper in the mixture - 8.33% copper.  I could keep going, but it shouldn't be necessary.

I've already posted the link earlier in this thread, I'm not going to post it again, but this is in the very first paragraph of that NGC article:

"Known in the coin business as "copper spots," this term pretty much sums up their nature. These spots and streaks are caused by concentrations of copper amid the overall gold composition."

Carbon can be deposited on a gold coin, accidentally of course, in myriad ways.  Mint employee sneezes near coin, sneeze ejects mucous, mucous is composed of many things including sugar, sugar is based on carbon.  Not complicated.

All of this is beside the point...it doesn't matter what links I post, it doesn't matter that actual mints in actual countries with actual employees have put copper into actual gold coins.  You're trying to sell a product based on fear and the greater the fear you can create the better your financial situation.  I don't begrudge anyone making a living, and as I've said I use your products, but there are times to stay with a discussion and invest one's time and then there are situations where it's best to bow out and invest the time elsewhere.    For now, I'm opting for the latter.  This thread is all yours.
Eric Liquori
Anvil Fine Wares
www.anvilfinewares.com

Offline SANDAC

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Re: Option to ncs only?
« Reply #57 on: October 06, 2016, 06:41:12 PM »
I do have a 1985 1oz gold that has a pretty nasty looking spot.  It is still in OMP and is from a 10-coin sheet I purchased 20 years ago.  A few of them were submitted to NGC and graded MS68/69.  This is the only one in the sheet with spots.  I like to hear you guys' opinions.  It is in my possession and I can take more pictures if you like.  BTW, the white balance is properly compensated so the color is accurate representation of the real coin.