Author Topic: Kuang Hsu 33rd Year Fake?  (Read 3120 times)

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Offline Coinville

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Kuang Hsu 33rd Year Fake?
« on: April 02, 2016, 02:43:49 AM »
Hi
I intentionally bought what I thought to be a fake Kuang Hsu 33 Year coin.   I just liked it and knew I couldn't afford the real thing.    But after reading your forms I noticed that others who have posted pictures of their fakes said their coins weighted around 27 and 31 grams.   It was mentioned that the real thing should weight around 37.1 grams.
Yesterday I weighted mine at a jewelry shop and it was 35.7 grams.   Very close to the real weight.
I have attached pictures.  Could you share your opinion with me.
Thanks   :confused1:

Offline Deepwater

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Re: Kuang Hsu 33rd Year Fake?
« Reply #1 on: April 02, 2016, 03:06:53 PM »
I don't think it is genuine.

Offline Coinville

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Re: Kuang Hsu 33rd Year Fake?
« Reply #2 on: April 02, 2016, 07:24:29 PM »
Thanks   If there are any other comments on the things that indicate it is a fake I would like to hear them.

Offline silverpv

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Re: Kuang Hsu 33rd Year Fake?
« Reply #3 on: April 02, 2016, 07:42:43 PM »
one thing i notice with this is that it is off center.. The strike is not centered on the planchet and has more of a rim on the left. This is common with the morgan fakes. The cartwheel is not uniform and the devices/rim is not equal length all around.

Offline Coinville

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Re: Kuang Hsu 33rd Year Fake?
« Reply #4 on: April 02, 2016, 07:49:46 PM »
Thanks   I am learning and appreciate your insights

Offline TomG

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Re: Kuang Hsu 33rd Year Fake?
« Reply #5 on: April 14, 2016, 01:30:27 AM »
Hello Coinville,

There was a Tael pattern test coin made in 1907 but it does not look like the pictured replica.
http://www.pcgs.com/prices/valueview/755814?cid=4654
There was even a limited run of Taels made in honor of the Dowager Empress Cixi
http://primaltrek.com/blog/2011/08/10/empress-dowager-cixi-commemorative-coin/
It did not look the pictured replica either.

The replica is a 7 Mace and 2 Candareen with the value legend altered for a Tael, which is approximately 37g. 35.7g is within a weight range, 35.2-38.9g, for this coin to be an authentic Tael. But because no 1907 Kuang Hsu Tael was ever minted for circulation, it is euphemistically called a fantasy coin. The 37g weight you read about refers to an imperial Tael weight standard that originates from the first Zhou dynasty. Emperor Kuang Hsu died in November 1908 before the Tael standard could be established. http://images.pcgs.com/CoinFacts/80309520_41836532_2200.jpg
http://www.pcgs.com/prices/valueview/167946?cid=4245

Seven mace and two candareens (7M+2C) is supposed to be the bullion weight. Because of different multiple weight standards, Chinese coin weights of 7M+2C vary around 27g. Depending on the time period, province, and precious metal shortages, the final coin weight and silver content, i.e. fineness, vary.

Weight alone helps rule out coins that are well under or well over reference weights. When weight is closer to reference, then reference diameter and thickness rule out whether extra metal is hidden in over-sized dimensions. Because cupro-nickel, used in replicas of silver coins, is less dense than silver, it take more cupro-nickel volume to reach the specified weight of a silver coin. But additional cupro-nickel weight results in a bigger coin volume.

Using the rim thickness and diameter provide a rough approximation of the coin as a flat cylinder: Volume =  (π/4)x(Thickness)x(Diameter)x(Diameter). One usually does not need to compute the numbers. Over-sized diameter and/or thickness of the suspect coin will usually show whether the close weight is caused by additional metal volume.

Here is the NGC description of authentic Chihli Y-73.2 7 Mace and 2 Candareens Coin (dollar):
https://www.ngccoin.com/price-guide/world/china-chihli-province-dollar-y-732-331907-341908-cuid-43735-cuid-43735-duid-125180
The reference weight is 26.7g. Normal significant digits of reference weight is about one decimal place despite NGC adding three more zeros beyond the decimal point.

Numista usually provides a reference diameter. NGC and PCGS do not always provide it.
http://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces3847.html
The reference diameter is 39mm. The reference thickness is 2mm. The precision of significant digits vary in the coin industry. 39mm might mean 39±0.1 or even 39±1. A ±5% to ±10% range is normal. In this case it would be ±1.9mm to ±3.9mm. Same idea applies to the thickness and weight.

Use a reference diameter of 39±2mm and reference thickness of 2.0±0.5mm. The 7M+2C coin weight would be 26.7±1.4g Let's hope the 26.7g, 39mm and 2mm figures are centered in the probable range; sometimes they aren't.

Coin authenticity becomes suspect if it falls outside its reference weight, diameter or thickness. Other disqualifying factors are visual disimilarity to authentic sample pieces and tell-tale deviations from minting processes.

For example, if an authentic Tael existed that looked like the pictured coin, you could repeat the research for reference weight, diameter and thickness. You would then repeat the above calculations for acceptable average, high and low value range to verify if it met the reference criteria.

Test Your Knowledge :thumbup:

Try this for this 1943-1944 Yunnan Province Tael L&M-433; Kann-940; KM-A2a.
An actual auction ad reads:
"Sorry, can't guaranty 100% authenticity. ( I'm not coins specialist ) collection staid from my brother,and I know was collected from eBay auction.  
Diameter  39 - 40  mm; Weight - 27.05 gr.
I guaranty 100% the coin is silver,but has not been graded about authenticity."
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Yunnan-Tael-1943-44-silver-coin-French-Indo-China-/322072839367?hash=item4afd0984c7:g:ER0AAOSwJQdXAc1I

Reference Weight
http://www.coinfactswiki.com/wiki/Yunnan_No_Date_%281943%29_1_tael_KM-A2a
Note: Although using opium to fund a modern government is barbaric and cruel, Great Britain / United Kingdom outlawed Opium trade in 1942! Republic of China split into factions. In 1943, an opium-based government economy sprang up in Yunnan Province and nearby regions.

Reference Diameter and Thickness
Diameter 40.96 mm; thickness: 3.0mm

Is the auction coin authentic? If you purchased the coin, would the coin thickness fall within an acceptable range?

Also look at the auction coin edge; discussions elsewhere on this forum can help explain what its appearance should look like.



Offline TomG

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Re: Kuang Hsu 33rd Year Fake?
« Reply #6 on: April 14, 2016, 02:25:28 AM »
Hello Coinville,

I must correct my error in the last post. There was a Chihli Tael in 1907, Y-74! I stand corrected. But 51.20g is its stated reference weight, quite a big Tael.   :001_smile:
http://www.pcgs.com/prices/valueview/240032?cid=4246
https://www.ngccoin.com/price-guide/world/china-chihli-province-tael-y-74-33%281907%29-cuid-43785-duid-125346
http://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces16252.html

Here is the close up image at PCGS: http://images.pcgs.com/CoinFacts/80007616_43923640_2200.jpg

There is a Balwin's auction listing a variant 1907 Tael Y-74.2 with a 37.3g reference weight.  Perhaps the NGC and PCGS 51.2g reference weight is a misprint of the original Bowers Stack auction.

388 COINS. CHINA — PROVINCIAL ISSUES. Chihli Province: Silver Tael, Year 33 (1907),, variety with three tiny dots arranged in a straight line on fire-ball on reverse, 37.3g (Kann 938a; KM Y74.2; L&M 438). In PCGS holder graded MS62, very rare.
http://www.coinnews.net/2011/08/17/baldwins-hong-kong-coin-auction-51-1064-lots-world-coins-banknotes/

Good night!