Author Topic: 1991 Panda Medal Copper or Bronze??  (Read 11393 times)

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Offline PandaQuest

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1991 Panda Medal Copper or Bronze??
« on: November 06, 2015, 03:08:32 PM »
Hello! I'm a little puzzled with my 2 Medals that look so different with the Finishes, then the rest of the same medals being offered on eBay? My Medals have more of a copper finish, and the other medals definitely look more Bronze. Is there a Copper and Bronze strike or maybe it's a re-strike?? They could be fake I guess, but I bought them from a reputable dealer... I don't think it's a lighting issue, there wouldn't be such a contrast.

Although the Copper finish looks to give the artwork more depth, IMHO.

Any and all help is greatly appreciated!

My Medals are the first photo. The rest are examples from eBay.


Offline KeepOnTrying!

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Re: 1991 Panda Medal Copper or Bronze??
« Reply #1 on: November 06, 2015, 03:29:12 PM »
Could yours have been stored better? Over time copper medals take on a darker hue as a result of ?oxidation. Look at the details of the Wall on yours. I can't see them clearly. Are they the same with details you see on the other examples from eBay?
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Offline PandaQuest

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Re: 1991 Panda Medal Copper or Bronze??
« Reply #2 on: November 06, 2015, 03:47:30 PM »
Hopefully these help for better examination.

Offline PandaQuest

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Re: 1991 Panda Medal Copper or Bronze??
« Reply #3 on: November 06, 2015, 03:51:24 PM »
From what I understanding these coins were not struck, they were cast poured. Maybe someone with more understanding of the process of minting these medals can clarify.

Offline PandaQuest

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Re: 1991 Panda Medal Copper or Bronze??
« Reply #4 on: November 07, 2015, 08:56:33 AM »
 I sent the link to a friend/member who is very knowledgable in Chinese Numismatics to take a look at the medal, this is his response! Btw I bought the medals in January of 2012.

 "I'm sorry to tell you but the one you bought in the year of 2012 is a fake,not genuine.
       Not only the copper(in China we usually prefer call these copper not bronze),but also the silver have the fake,such as the photos(fake1,fake2) following,the characteristics in common are the sand holes on the surface,this is not the craftwork of the Shanghai mint,Private copied,these fakes were struck around the year of 2012.also the color on the surface is not the craftwork of the Shanghai mint"


On the bright side of things, I have a really cool and expensive, paper weight for my desk!

Offline KeepOnTrying!

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Re: 1991 Panda Medal Copper or Bronze??
« Reply #5 on: November 07, 2015, 10:30:55 AM »
Do you remember who you bought them from? Can you return the items?
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Offline SANDAC

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Re: 1991 Panda Medal Copper or Bronze??
« Reply #6 on: November 07, 2015, 10:58:58 AM »
This is a thread talking about the 1991 10th anniversary:
http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=11058.msg64128#msg64128

There is also a side-by-side comparison on the Gallery:
http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=509

I know it only discussed the silver version, but the same mold for silver seems to be used for the copper as well.

Offline PandaQuest

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Re: 1991 Panda Medal Copper or Bronze??
« Reply #7 on: November 07, 2015, 12:06:19 PM »
Yes I do and he is still around. But it was three years ago, and the title was not clearly deceitful IMO. "1991 The panda issued 10y copper 60mm medal China coin".

The only part I feel was sneaky was listing copies/Fakes at $100 A PIECE!!   N14  N6

I originally bought 3 and gave one away to a friend, but I don't feel bad lol, because he's the same person that recommended I buy them!  N27

It was a major error on my part, I should have done my DD before clicking BUY!

I least now I can play with them and not keep them looked up in a safe for nothing!!


Offline Russ 736

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Re: 1991 Panda Medal Copper or Bronze??
« Reply #8 on: November 07, 2015, 12:44:28 PM »
I am in the middle of the same situation with NGC. I have two graded bronze of this medal. They have a distinctive bronze patina common to bronze medals. The copper version ( just purchased a few weeks ago from highly reputable dealer ) has the flat oxidized copper appearance that your copper has. I questioned NGC when they identified it as bronze on their description in the grading system. They then " tested " it and concluded that it was not copper. This has happened to me in the past with other medals. I believe mine is genuine as does NGC. Rather than starting an argument that I can't win, I'm going to wait until I get it back from grading and then send it back for a correction of the label. I will include pictures of what a bronze looks like and hope for the best.

Russ

Offline PandaCollector

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Re: 1991 Panda Medal Copper or Bronze??
« Reply #9 on: November 07, 2015, 03:30:18 PM »
All genuine 1991 anniversary medals were struck, not cast. To the best of my knowledge there are no cast coins, commemoratives or medals made by the China Mint, period.

Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
China Pricepedia
www.pandacollector.com

Offline PandaCollector

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Re: 1991 Panda Medal Copper or Bronze??
« Reply #10 on: November 07, 2015, 03:35:25 PM »

I know it only discussed the silver version, but the same mold for silver seems to be used for the copper as well.

The copper medal came first. Martin Weiss, the then-owner of Panda America, liked the design so much he asked the China Mint to make the silver and gilt versions for him. These were then sold as part of Anniversary sets. Some sets were sent wholesale to other coin dealers who may have repackaged them, but Panda America was the original source for 100% of these.

Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
China Pricepedia
www.pandacollector.com

Offline Russ 736

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Re: 1991 Panda Medal Copper or Bronze??
« Reply #11 on: November 07, 2015, 04:23:17 PM »
Peter,
         You mention that the copper came first followed by the silver and the gilt. You don't mention the brass version. Can I assume this was just an omission on your part? I still contend that there are two distinct medals that have completely different appearance that are being called bronze by NGC. Do you have any thoughts or comments as why the difference in appearance?

Thanks for your help
Russ

Offline PandaCollector

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Re: 1991 Panda Medal Copper or Bronze??
« Reply #12 on: November 07, 2015, 06:32:17 PM »
Peter,
         You mention that the copper came first followed by the silver and the gilt. You don't mention the brass version. Can I assume this was just an omission on your part? I still contend that there are two distinct medals that have completely different appearance that are being called bronze by NGC. Do you have any thoughts or comments as why the difference in appearance?

Thanks for your help
Russ

I may have a better answer for you soon. I'll be at the Beijing show (BICE) today and may see the retired assistant Shanghai Mint director. He was in charge of production and would be the best person that I can think of to answer this question. Martin Weiss was not involved with the production of the original copper medals.

Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
China Pricepedia
www.pandacollector.com


Offline Hippanda

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Re: 1991 Panda Medal Copper or Bronze??
« Reply #13 on: November 07, 2015, 07:45:42 PM »
I think I recall reading somewhere that some medals had a different metal content, which made them appear darker
and more copper-like. I suspect its semantics, and what is called "Copper" is actually Bronze (which includes a great deal of copper primarily)

1984 Song Dynasty Insect and Grapes, and Birds and Lychee. Labelled Bronze, but looks the same color as Flowers Full Moon medals.

1981 Blooming Flower Full Moon Dragon/ and Phoenix medals, labelled brass but very dark reddish colored.

It'll take some time for me to look and try and find it.

In the meantime, the difference between brass and bronze: caveat:  colors can be more reddish for either, depending on the percentage and types of alloys used.

Brass

Brass is mainly an alloy that consists of copper with zinc added. Brasses can have varying amounts of zinc or other elements added. These varying mixtures produce a wide range of properties and variation in color. Increased amounts of zinc provide the material with improved strength and ductility. Brass can range in color from red to yellow depending on the amount of zinc added to the alloy.  

Bronze
Bronze is an alloy that consists primarily of copper with the addition of other ingredients. In most cases the ingredient added is typically tin, but arsenic, phosphorus, aluminum, manganese, and silicon can also be used to produce different properties in the material. All of these ingredients produce an alloy much harder than copper alone.

Bronze is characterized by its dull-gold color. (Edit: But can be very reddish too). You can also tell the difference between bronze and brass because bronze will have faint rings on its surface.
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Offline KeepOnTrying!

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Re: 1991 Panda Medal Copper or Bronze??
« Reply #14 on: November 07, 2015, 08:43:18 PM »
I don't know if I am in the same situation as PandaQuest so I'll appreciate your input with regards to the two color variants of the 1987 Great Wall medals that I have. One each was bought from reputable eBay sellers. I haven't thought seriously about the possibility of fakes until now. So are both genuine, fake or one is and one isn't? Please assist me here. Thanks!  N8
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