Author Topic: 1931 Hunan Soviet dollar  (Read 8774 times)

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Offline T R U

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1931 Hunan Soviet dollar
« on: November 01, 2015, 06:33:31 PM »
Does this variety actually exists?

Offline T R U

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Re: 1931 Hunan Soviet dollar
« Reply #1 on: November 01, 2015, 06:35:10 PM »
I couldn't find any records about this particular variety apart from the SCWC.
Are there any auction auction records for this one?
Thanks in advance.

Offline T R U

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Re: 1931 Hunan Soviet dollar
« Reply #2 on: November 02, 2015, 11:33:24 AM »
Just now found a auction record for this one. Experts, please tell whether this coin is genuine.
http://www.noble.com.au/auctions/lot/?id=258267

Offline poconopenn

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Re: 1931 Hunan Soviet dollar
« Reply #3 on: November 07, 2015, 05:05:59 PM »
Just now found a auction record for this one. Experts, please tell whether this coin is genuine.
http://www.noble.com.au/auctions/lot/?id=258267

Both KM#1.1 and 1.2 were made at Hunan province. The difference is in the shape of star. IMO, the coin in Noble auction is genuine. It has a strong strike and no visible surface issue with a even wear.

Offline T R U

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Re: 1931 Hunan Soviet dollar
« Reply #4 on: November 08, 2015, 09:15:59 AM »
But, apart from the SCWC book, this particular small star variety hasn't been mentioned elsewhere.
No record on Kann's, Dong Wenchao's and L&m too.
Also no auction record other than Noble's.

Kindly check this link http://www.zeno.ru/showphoto.php?photo=57287

The important aspect to consider here is that all the other star variety coin is being minted in a much cruder stance.

The small star variety's reverse is surely odd when comparing the others.

Offline poconopenn

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Re: 1931 Hunan Soviet dollar
« Reply #5 on: November 08, 2015, 03:05:31 PM »
L&M# 886 has an identical picture as KM#1.2 and L&M # 885 has an identical picture as KM #1.1.

Attached are pictures to show the obvious difference in star shape of 1.1 and 1.2.

Offline T R U

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Re: 1931 Hunan Soviet dollar
« Reply #6 on: November 08, 2015, 09:05:47 PM »
The L&M 885 and KM # 1.1 are completely different coins.
The L&M 885 is the Soviet Ping Chiang County version of the coin.

Check the alignment of the characters on both the coins below the left side of the stars and also the character variations at 2 o-clock.

Offline T R U

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Re: 1931 Hunan Soviet dollar
« Reply #7 on: November 08, 2015, 09:31:37 PM »
The stars in the obverse of both KM#1.1 and L&M-886 are identical in every aspects.
The only variation between both the coins are the rosettes on either side of the obverse star, where its hollow with a dot at the centre on KM # 1.1 and a solid one in the L&M-886.
The rosettes are six pointed in both the coins.
But when looking at the KM # 1.2, it has a solid 5 pointed rosette on either sides and the star on the obverse is very small. Also the wheat pattern at the reverse is of a very good quality and matured, when compared with the other varieties.
I believe, its the controversial part in here.

Poconopenn . . Apart form the strike and the wear quality, are there any other authentic record for the existence of KM # 1.2?

Offline GoldMedal

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Re: 1931 Hunan Soviet dollar
« Reply #8 on: November 09, 2015, 01:13:33 AM »
do you have this coin?

Offline T R U

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Re: 1931 Hunan Soviet dollar
« Reply #9 on: November 09, 2015, 02:24:22 AM »
do you have this coin?

Am being offered.

Offline SANDAC

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Re: 1931 Hunan Soviet dollar
« Reply #10 on: November 09, 2015, 09:00:41 AM »
Curious to note that NGC graded a "Fantasy Restrike" of the 1931 Soviet China Hunan, 3347835-001.  A contemporary counterfeit?

Offline T R U

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Re: 1931 Hunan Soviet dollar
« Reply #11 on: November 09, 2015, 11:32:21 AM »
Curious to note that NGC graded a "Fantasy Restrike" of the 1931 Soviet China Hunan, 3347835-001.  A contemporary counterfeit?

The same coin was re-graded by pcgs as "Genuine" Cleaning- DETAILS, and has been put up for auction in 2012 by Ponterio Associates, estimated for 150k-200k$ which went unsold.

Offline T R U

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Re: 1931 Hunan Soviet dollar
« Reply #12 on: November 15, 2015, 12:11:28 AM »
Any further expert opinions?

Offline poconopenn

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Re: 1931 Hunan Soviet dollar
« Reply #13 on: November 16, 2015, 10:34:07 PM »
The L&M 885 and KM # 1.1 are completely different coins.
The L&M 885 is the Soviet Ping Chiang County version of the coin.

Check the alignment of the characters on both the coins below the left side of the stars and also the character variations at 2 o-clock.

Sorry, my mistake in reading L & M book.

My knowledge about the background of this rare coin is limited. The China Soviet Republic was formed in November 7, 1931 by Mao and ended in mid-1937 in Communist controlled territory, Hunan province and nearby provinces. During this period, major part of China were controlled by warlords. The Nationalist Chinese Central Government considered China Soviet Republic as one of the warlords at that time.  All warlords issued their own silver coinage/medallion. Some of them re-struck 1914 YSK or used their picture on obverse and reverse (open wreath of grain) copied from YSK silver dollar. The 1931 China Soviet silver dollar had a similar reverse as YSK silver dollar.

There were many China Soviet coins produced during such a short period of time. IMO, the production die was the only die in minting the coin. When the production die damaged, a new production die was made to replace the damaged production die, therefore, a new version. As suggested by Kann (see the page attached), two versions of 1931 one Yuan silver coin were made; one in 1930 (no number assigned for this one and no picture either) and another in 1931 (#801 Hunan as shown in the picture). The coin minted in 1930 was clearly mentioned as made in Hunan (not Ping Chiang) in the description. Therefore, I assumed that Kann had referred to two versions of Hunan silver one dollar.   I have four versions of SCWC (1995, 2002, 2004 and 2012). KM#1.2 was not mentioned in 1995 or 2002 version, but it was in 2004 version, suggesting KM# 1.2 was added to the SCWC sometime after 2002. All books mentioned in your post are pre-2002. Therefore, this 1.2 version might be discovered after 2002.

Here is my speculation:

The shape of center large star in KM#1.2 does not resemble to the star in Communist flag (two lines in the triangles are not straight) or any coin containing stars in the design, made thereafter. It might be an error in design, therefore, it was highly possible that the coin was not allow to circulate or it was circulated for a very short period of time after communist party discovered the mistake. Consequently, this version, most likely minted in 1930, is rarer than KM#1.1 and in a relatively better quality. Kann also mentioned in his book that 1930 version had a better workmanship.

All China Soviet coins were circulated and wore badly. They are expensive even in VF condition. There is an auction inside China on Nov. 18. Several China Soviet coins will be included. Here are two examples.
 
http://www.ichengxuan.com/antiques/99964/ (1932, China Soviet Silver Coin, 1 Dollar, Rare, NGC F15. Est. value: RMB 200,000-250,000).

http://www.ichengxuan.com/antiques/99967/ (1932-1933, A Group of Silver Coins and Copper Coins of China Soviet, Total 9 pcs., PCGS AU53, AU58 X 2, MS62BN X 2, XF Details, MS63BN X 2, MS61BN, Est. value: RMB 35,000-40,000)


Offline T R U

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Re: 1931 Hunan Soviet dollar
« Reply #14 on: November 17, 2015, 12:29:04 AM »
That was quite informative. I had missed that particular part in Kann's book mentioning about such variety.