Author Topic: Possible Fake 1998 Silver Large Date on Ebay?  (Read 6551 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline PandaNoob

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 23
  • Karma: 2
Possible Fake 1998 Silver Large Date on Ebay?
« on: September 21, 2015, 11:33:37 PM »
Hello,

I'm building a collection and are after a lot of dates in the 1990s currently. One listing on eBay caught my eye. With the 1998 1 oz BU Silver (Large Date) being as rare as it is, I was surprised to find this. I have a suspicion that it is a fake, although a really good one. Please take a look and tell me what you think. There are a few small things on the obverse that just don't look perfect, but one big thing really sticks out - the shape of the Panda's shoulder. In the photo on the NGC website, the shoulder is a little larger and has a very different shape than the one in the photo on the eBay website. What do you experts think?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/291565307478

Thanks,
PandaNoob

Offline dynamike51

  • Supporter
  • Trade Count: (+15)
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 712
  • Karma: 41
  • Gender: Male
Re: Possible Fake 1998 Silver Large Date on Ebay?
« Reply #1 on: September 22, 2015, 02:04:25 AM »
Looks good to me.

Offline NBM

  • Supporter
  • Trade Count: (+4)
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 732
  • Karma: 31
Re: Possible Fake 1998 Silver Large Date on Ebay?
« Reply #2 on: September 22, 2015, 04:02:16 AM »
It looks like what you are seeing is a difference in die state at the time of minting. As dies become worn they are reworked resulting in a difference in how the frosting is distributed.

Offline PandaNoob

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 23
  • Karma: 2
Re: Possible Fake 1998 Silver Large Date on Ebay?
« Reply #3 on: September 22, 2015, 07:59:08 AM »
It looks like what you are seeing is a difference in die state at the time of minting. As dies become worn they are reworked resulting in a difference in how the frosting is distributed.

Thanks. I'm not sure I fully understand this but I appreciate the perspective. The entire arm has a different shape. The distance between the face and the black fur section of the arm is quite different. I know the packaging looks right, but this section of the obverse stands out as being quite different from the pic on the NGC website.

Offline NBM

  • Supporter
  • Trade Count: (+4)
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 732
  • Karma: 31
Re: Possible Fake 1998 Silver Large Date on Ebay?
« Reply #4 on: September 22, 2015, 10:00:46 AM »
The "black fur" is actually polished surface contrasting next to frosted surface. If you'll look closely at the shoulder you will notice the shape is still there but the polished surface has advanced further up the shoulder.

Offline PandaNoob

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 23
  • Karma: 2
Re: Possible Fake 1998 Silver Large Date on Ebay?
« Reply #5 on: September 22, 2015, 10:15:56 AM »
The "black fur" is actually polished surface contrasting next to frosted surface. If you'll look closely at the shoulder you will notice the shape is still there but the polished surface has advanced further up the shoulder.

Wow. I did not see that before. But now I do. The shape IS still there but the polished surface has just extended up the arm. Thank you for that.

This is therefore a sign of an older die. I'm curious if that affects the value in any way.

Offline SANDAC

  • Supporter
  • Global Moderator
  • Trade Count: (+8)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2264
  • Karma: 118
Re: Possible Fake 1998 Silver Large Date on Ebay?
« Reply #6 on: September 22, 2015, 12:26:12 PM »
Variations in the fur pattern are common.  Looking at random 20 pictures of 1998 silver large date, I can see 5 different shoulder patterns.  The coin you have question about has the same pattern as NGC 2780251-047.  It is an unusual pattern, only one in the sample of 20.  Attached is the 5 patterns side-by-side, or if you prefer, the animated gif displaying each of the 5 patterns every two seconds.

Offline PandaNoob

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 23
  • Karma: 2
Re: Possible Fake 1998 Silver Large Date on Ebay?
« Reply #7 on: September 22, 2015, 12:52:19 PM »
Variations in the fur pattern are common.  Looking at random 20 pictures of 1998 silver large date, I can see 5 different shoulder patterns.  The coin you have question about has the same pattern as NGC 2780251-047.  It is an unusual pattern, only one in the sample of 20.  Attached is the 5 patterns side-by-side, or if you prefer, the animated gif displaying each of the 5 patterns every two seconds.

Impressive. Thank you very much for this. It is very interesting and helpful for me in considering this purchase

Offline Birdman

  • Supporter
  • Global Moderator
  • Trade Count: (+19)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1883
  • Karma: 137
Re: Possible Fake 1998 Silver Large Date on Ebay?
« Reply #8 on: September 22, 2015, 01:12:25 PM »
Variations in the fur pattern are common.  Looking at random 20 pictures of 1998 silver large date, I can see 5 different shoulder patterns.  The coin you have question about has the same pattern as NGC 2780251-047.  It is an unusual pattern, only one in the sample of 20.  Attached is the 5 patterns side-by-side, or if you prefer, the animated gif displaying each of the 5 patterns every two seconds.

Cool animated gif, as usual, SANDAC. :thumbup1:

Offline dynamike51

  • Supporter
  • Trade Count: (+15)
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 712
  • Karma: 41
  • Gender: Male
Re: Possible Fake 1998 Silver Large Date on Ebay?
« Reply #9 on: September 22, 2015, 01:45:10 PM »
PandaNoob,

We welcome you to the forum. Please visit often.   N39

Offline PandaNoob

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 23
  • Karma: 2
Re: Possible Fake 1998 Silver Large Date on Ebay?
« Reply #10 on: September 22, 2015, 02:49:24 PM »
PandaNoob,

We welcome you to the forum. Please visit often.   N39

Thank you. I appreciate that!

Offline PandaNoob

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 23
  • Karma: 2
Re: Possible Fake 1998 Silver Large Date on Ebay?
« Reply #11 on: September 22, 2015, 11:09:25 PM »
Ok guys, so this Panda just sold on eBay for $210! All of the sources I could find (e.g. Pricepedia, NGC website) said the value was closer to $130. This boggles my mind. How does one price this stuff??

Online KeepOnTrying!

  • Supporter
  • Trade Count: (+23)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1759
  • Karma: 55
  • Gender: Male
Re: Possible Fake 1998 Silver Large Date on Ebay?
« Reply #12 on: September 23, 2015, 01:29:29 AM »
Ok guys, so this Panda just sold on eBay for $210! All of the sources I could find (e.g. Pricepedia, NGC website) said the value was closer to $130. This boggles my mind. How does one price this stuff??

Marketplace dynamics; demand and supply considerations. Short term price gyrations become a trend in the long term. Price guides are just that. Individuals ascribe the final value to the item based on their needs and what potentials they see in the coin. The foregoing discussions may have aroused interest in the coin leading to its sale at the price you noted. Were you planning on buying that coin? Others could come along soon. Best wishes and thanks for your contributions. +1.
KeepOnTrying and Never Give Up!
That lion is also after you!

Offline Tao-Panda

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 231
  • Karma: 5
Re: Possible Fake 1998 Silver Large Date on Ebay?
« Reply #13 on: September 23, 2015, 06:35:33 AM »
Ok guys, so this Panda just sold on eBay for $210! All of the sources I could find (e.g. Pricepedia, NGC website) said the value was closer to $130. This boggles my mind. How does one price this stuff??

I was alos impressed by the price it has been sold for.
Good for the seller.

Offline jc888888888

  • Supporter
  • Trade Count: (+14)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1285
  • Karma: 22
Re: Possible Fake 1998 Silver Large Date on Ebay?
« Reply #14 on: September 24, 2015, 08:47:34 AM »
Ok guys, so this Panda just sold on eBay for $210! All of the sources I could find (e.g. Pricepedia, NGC website) said the value was closer to $130. This boggles my mind. How does one price this stuff??

80 % of all non graded coins on e bay are fakes  so when a good coin comes up in omp and is for sure genuine it gets lots of bidders..

Offline PandaNoob

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 23
  • Karma: 2
Re: Possible Fake 1998 Silver Large Date on Ebay?
« Reply #15 on: September 24, 2015, 10:32:44 AM »
80 % of all non graded coins on e bay are fakes  so when a good coin comes up in omp and is for sure genuine it gets lots of bidders..

Yes that makes sense. Now I'm just kicking myself for letting it slip by. Jc888... I've seen the same screen name selling a bit on eBay. I'm assuming it's the same. Hopefully we can do business some time in the future. Cheers!

Offline jc888888888

  • Supporter
  • Trade Count: (+14)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1285
  • Karma: 22
Re: Possible Fake 1998 Silver Large Date on Ebay?
« Reply #16 on: September 24, 2015, 10:39:38 AM »
yes sir 

Offline digbird

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 315
  • Karma: 4
Re: Possible Fake 1998 Silver Large Date on Ebay?
« Reply #17 on: September 24, 2015, 02:11:46 PM »
80 % of all non graded coins on e bay are fakes  so when a good coin comes up in omp and is for sure genuine it gets lots of bidders..

80% fakes? Seems a little high jc.

Regardless, time for ebay to appoint a coin czar or a professional to get rid of these thieves that are hurting our hobby/investments. As of now they don't have a knowledgeable person overseeing this problem other than reporting the items, which only works to a minor degree. Need a shill bidder preventer system as well. They are just too lax in these departments.     

Offline jc888888888

  • Supporter
  • Trade Count: (+14)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1285
  • Karma: 22
Re: Possible Fake 1998 Silver Large Date on Ebay?
« Reply #18 on: September 24, 2015, 02:39:44 PM »
Mr dig bird  I agree about ebay doing nothing    honestly in my opinion  80 % is not accurate it is more than 90% in OMP   ,Just  go to e bay  catagory  prc 1949-now     type panda  if you can find five out of 100 in omp that are genuine I would be surprised  ,I am not Chinese bashing ,but except  for 3 or 4 established reputable sellers from China and we all know who they are   ,every low feedback seller from china is selling exclusively fakes! their are 100,s upon hundreds of fake omp panda,s on ebay right now maybe more than 1000!!!!  I go to a page view on e bay with 25 listings on it and 20 are fake! buyer beware

Online KeepOnTrying!

  • Supporter
  • Trade Count: (+23)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1759
  • Karma: 55
  • Gender: Male
Re: Possible Fake 1998 Silver Large Date on Ebay?
« Reply #19 on: September 24, 2015, 05:12:11 PM »
Mr dig bird  I agree about ebay doing nothing    honestly in my opinion  80 % is not accurate it is more than 90% in OMP   ,Just  go to e bay  catagory  prc 1949-now     type panda  if you can find five out of 100 in omp that are genuine I would be surprised  ,I am not Chinese bashing ,but except  for 3 or 4 established reputable sellers from China and we all know who they are   ,every low feedback seller from china is selling exclusively fakes! their are 100,s upon hundreds of fake omp panda,s on ebay right now maybe more than 1000!!!!  I go to a page view on e bay with 25 listings on it and 20 are fake! buyer beware

The overabundance of fakes also makes it difficult to research coins especially silver panda coins. You have to go through a whole lot of garbage before pulling up one or two real coins. At times I add pf or ms to see if that can eliminate the fakes but that means I can only access slabbed coins and not OMP coins. Frustrating. Hopefully, we will get an eBay alternative one of these days!
KeepOnTrying and Never Give Up!
That lion is also after you!

Offline PandaNoob

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 23
  • Karma: 2
Re: Possible Fake 1998 Silver Large Date on Ebay?
« Reply #20 on: September 24, 2015, 05:47:48 PM »
The overabundance of fakes also makes it difficult to research coins especially silver panda coins. You have to go through a whole lot of garbage before pulling up one or two real coins. At times I add pf or ms to see if that can eliminate the fakes but that means I can only access slabbed coins and not OMP coins. Frustrating. Hopefully, we will get an eBay alternative one of these days!

I agree 100%. Especially as a new collector, it is not easy to tell the difference between a fake and a variant of a real coin (see discussion/photos) above.

Online KeepOnTrying!

  • Supporter
  • Trade Count: (+23)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1759
  • Karma: 55
  • Gender: Male
Re: Possible Fake 1998 Silver Large Date on Ebay?
« Reply #21 on: September 24, 2015, 06:04:12 PM »
I agree 100%. Especially as a new collector, it is not easy to tell the difference between a fake and a variant of a real coin (see discussion/photos) above.

The experts can tell just by their looks but not me (yet). They also know many of the variants and even minting history as demonstrated in the conversations above together with the illustrations. Fakes tend to be priced much cheaper than the real coins. They are also made of alloys.

My concern is when they start using .999 silver for making the fake coins. That will remove the current use of weight to distinguish between the fakes and the real thing. The general advice is to buy slabbed coins unless you are buying from one of the recognized sellers or dealers. Which still doesn't mean you shouldn't check out the OMP coin immediately or send to NGC/PCGS for evaluation and grading. If the coin turns out fake you will still remember whom you bought it from and arrange for its return.
KeepOnTrying and Never Give Up!
That lion is also after you!

Offline jc888888888

  • Supporter
  • Trade Count: (+14)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1285
  • Karma: 22
Re: Possible Fake 1998 Silver Large Date on Ebay?
« Reply #22 on: September 24, 2015, 07:17:55 PM »
Another helpful hint is the learn the seal patterns on the OMP packaging ,Peter Anthony,s panda book has some very helpful pictures the forgers have not yet been able to duplicate this packaging or they just haven't bothered to try..... also I will reiterate these sellers are low feedback Chinese sellers who,s feedback gets lower as time goes on and people discover they have been duped, also anyone who is selling just omp panda,s from older years   and constantly has dozens listed should be a red flag..look at some of the biggest reputable dealers inventories they have hardly have none for sale ?? clue ?? yes they are becoming rare finally when in doubt post here or just graded