Author Topic: The Second Edition of Standard Catalog of Chinese Circulating Coins is released  (Read 18738 times)

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Online fwang2450

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The Second Edition of Standard Catalog of Chinese Circulating Coins by Sun, Keqin has been released. Key parts in the Catalog have been translated into English (with my help). In fact the translation had been more extensive, but due to the size limit and cost consideration, some translation was left out. Anyone interested can PM me as I will have some copies available, which were brought over in person by Sun and his associates from China on their trip to the Long Beach Coin Show. Along with the printed catalog, I will send the original Word files with more translations in them. The Catalog can also be bought at the upcoming Long Beach Coin Show where coin001.com has a booth.

Offline PandaCollector

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This new edition of the Standard Catalog of Chinese Circulating coins may turn out to be a numismatic milestone - no exaggeration. The addition of English to the book will open a major new field to Western collectors. Mr. Sun's book is the best source I know for information on Chinese circulating coins, many of which have become valuable. My understanding is that Mr. Sun will have at most 40 copies available to the public in Long Beach. I don't expect that supply to last long so plan accordingly.

I hope that many of you can make it to the show. It's also an opportunity to meet some of the world's top Chinese coin dealers.

Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
China Pricepedia
www.pandacollector.com

Offline Hippanda

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Thank you Peter, will certainly try !     N31
Thanks for all your contributions-
"He who speaks without modesty will find it difficult to make his words good."

Confucius

Offline pandamonium

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I have been tracking different Chinese money as they are all going up as predicted.   Picked up a few UNC circulating coins about a month ago from 39 cents to a whopping $6.95, mostly Key and Semi Key.    Gave Fwang the ebay numbers for his opinion.   One or two had light scratches and others had spotting but are UNC.   All the quality i could find for peanut prices.   Total spent was a lot less than one silver MCC.   Today, the asking prices are up and most on ebay have light scratches.   Had a feeling the circ coin market was taking off as the book was out.   UNC Rare Dates have sold recently for well over $100, not for me.   Key Dates today are over $20 w/ light scratches and they sell.   Semi Key are still affordable if you can find them.   Ebay has been cleaned out but a few get listed.   Key Date UNC should be the next to rise to over $100, then Semi Keys.   No excuses for new collectors even w/ low cash, you can still get in on the ride up if you do your homework.   (keep in mind my posts are usually to encourage new collectors)...
Popular UNC notes are going up in price (the unpopular are still cheap) as the Exchanges absorb supply.   IF the lucite has value maybe i will track those.   I also noticed that 100 yr old silver 20 cent, etc are getting attention so they maybe in the last days of cheap prices plus other silver, brass, copper from that era.   Are these Empire coins?   I did go out on a limb and picked up a beauty UNC 1940 Japan/China/Manchukuo cent Fen Yr 29 WW2   Y # 355 what ever that means for $5.    Can't go wrong w/ UNC early year (unless they are fakes).   Markets are amazing to follow.   Most people in the West tell me how terrible their markets are as they circle the drain.   The Chinese money market is exciting and headed upwards as they own the gold......Mr Sun's book in English will change everything in the circ coin market as Peter's Panda books did.......

Offline Birdman

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I guess I understand the allure of rarity, high grade scarcity, and popularity, but I just can't seem to get myself excited about paper and Aluminum money.  Perhaps I'm old school, but my collection has gradually evolved to about 99% silver and gold, representing a few dozen countries and several centuries.  I have a visceral connection the the precious metals.  I guess I'll miss out on this new direction.  Best of luck, however, to those who are researching all the variables associated with these coins.  The same principles apply.  Know the market inside and out, so you can independently identify the truly scarce, yet underated pieces.

Birdman

Online fwang2450

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I guess I understand the allure of rarity, high grade scarcity, and popularity, but I just can't seem to get myself excited about paper and Aluminum money.  Perhaps I'm old school, but my collection has gradually evolved to about 99% silver and gold, representing a few dozen countries and several centuries.  I have a visceral connection the the precious metals.  I guess I'll miss out on this new direction.  Best of luck, however, to those who are researching all the variables associated with these coins.  The same principles apply.  Know the market inside and out, so you can independently identify the truly scarce, yet underated pieces.

Birdman
If you are thinking of investment, circulating coins are the best bet. The classical example is the 40th Anniversary of the People's Bank of China one Yuan commemorative coin, which went from 1 Yuan in 1989 to about 3000 Yuan now. (The increase in value was over 300 times in the first 10 years.) A 1955 1 Fen coin in the 67 grade is selling for 700 Yuan. Taking out the 100 Yuan grading cost, the value gain is 60,000 times. Even the rarer variety of a raw 1 Yuan Great Wall coin from 1980 is selling between 250-300 Yuan, way over the price gain of precious metal coins and medals. The best comparison is between the cuni 1 Yuan and silver 10 Yuan coins in the Xinjiang and Tibet 20th Anniversary sets. While the silver coins have been declining in value, the humble cuni coins are rising. A PF68 cuni Xinjiang coin sold for 13200 Yuan: www.coin001.com/hack.php?H_name=auction&action=detail&aid=28828&skip=1, which would be the price of a PF69 silver one on the current market.

I noticed the price gain of Chinese circulating coins when I read Eric Jordan's "Commemorative Coins".

Online fwang2450

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If you are thinking of investment, circulating coins are the best bet. The classical example is the 40th Anniversary of the People's Bank of China one Yuan commemorative coin, which went from 1 Yuan in 1989 to about 3000 Yuan now. (The increase in value was over 300 times in the first 10 years.) A 1955 1 Fen coin in the 67 grade is selling for 700 Yuan. Taking out the 100 Yuan grading cost, the value gain is 60,000 times. Even the rarer variety of a raw 1 Yuan Great Wall coin from 1980 is selling between 250-300 Yuan, way over the price gain of precious metal coins and medals. The best comparison is between the cuni 1 Yuan and silver 10 Yuan coins in the Xinjiang and Tibet 20th Anniversary sets. While the silver coins have been declining in value, the humble cuni coins are rising. A PF68 cuni Xinjiang coin sold for 13200 Yuan: www.coin001.com/hack.php?H_name=auction&action=detail&aid=28828&skip=1, which would be the price of a PF69 silver one on the current market.

I noticed the price gain of Chinese circulating coins when I read Eric Jordan's "Commemorative Coins".
These are not even the top rarities, pretty common coins one can buy without much difficulty.

Online fwang2450

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Forgot to mention the price of the catalog. It will be $20 plus postage, the same price offered at the Long Beach Coin Show.

PCGS already ordered 500 copies as gifts to their VIP clients. 

Offline poconopenn

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If you are thinking of investment, circulating coins are the best bet. The classical example is the 40th Anniversary of the People's Bank of China one Yuan commemorative coin, which went from 1 Yuan in 1989 to about 3000 Yuan now. (The increase in value was over 300 times in the first 10 years.) A 1955 1 Fen coin in the 67 grade is selling for 700 Yuan. Taking out the 100 Yuan grading cost, the value gain is 60,000 times. Even the rarer variety of a raw 1 Yuan Great Wall coin from 1980 is selling between 250-300 Yuan, way over the price gain of precious metal coins and medals. The best comparison is between the cuni 1 Yuan and silver 10 Yuan coins in the Xinjiang and Tibet 20th Anniversary sets. While the silver coins have been declining in value, the humble cuni coins are rising. A PF68 cuni Xinjiang coin sold for 13200 Yuan: www.coin001.com/hack.php?H_name=auction&action=detail&aid=28828&skip=1, which would be the price of a PF69 silver one on the current market.

I noticed the price gain of Chinese circulating coins when I read Eric Jordan's "Commemorative Coins".

Agree.

I bought two albums of circulated coins (in GEM BU condition) from 1984 to 1993 at Shanghai airport during one of my business trip in 1995. It was RMB 55/album (face value RMB29). The current valuation is about RMB6500. In 2010, I bought 1 Yuan Cu-Ni proof coin in commemorating of calligraphic of Chinese character “HE” (harmony) for $80, the current valuation is about $700 and the Exchange price is more than $1800. All proof Cu-Ni 1 Yuan coins issued after 2000 have a gain of at least 500%, many of them are higher than 1000%. The newly issued 2014 proof Cu-Ni 1 Yuan lunar horse has appreciated more than 300% (from $25 to $85) in less than 10 months. The circulated coin is one of the few section that shows a significant price appreciation in this down market.

Offline pandamonium

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I guess I understand the allure of rarity, high grade scarcity, and popularity, but I just can't seem to get myself excited about paper and Aluminum money.  Perhaps I'm old school, but my collection has gradually evolved to about 99% silver and gold, representing a few dozen countries and several centuries.  I have a visceral connection the the precious metals.  I guess I'll miss out on this new direction.  Best of luck, however, to those who are researching all the variables associated with these coins.  The same principles apply.  Know the market inside and out, so you can independently identify the truly scarce, yet underated pieces.

Birdman



I am on board w/ you too Birdman but for $1 UNC how can anyone pass?    When cash is low why wait on the sidelines as most articles say oil will be sold in the Yuan next month.   Will oil be sold in petro dollars and petro Yuan?    Who knows but it means the Yuan will rise as will ALL Chinese money sometime in the future.   Due to price manipulation of gold/silver, other Chinese money has seen huge gains as posted above.    Gold/silver will have their day but maybe i can use my UNC paper or aluminum to sweeten a trade deal for silver MCC.   The low price gamble for UNC alternative Chinese money is worth it and hopefully more new collectors will get into the market.   One cu ni coin was listed on ebay for over $1,000 and it was on one of Fwang's translation blogs.   Mind boggling for me.   Can a $1 UNC buy today equal $500 in the future?   Anything is possible when the rare Chinese money market takes off so a little gain here and there is worthwhile....

Offline Birdman

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I am on board w/ you too Birdman but for $1 UNC how can anyone pass?

Low cost items can be tricky to realize gains.  Let's say you buy a coin for $1 total cost, and its value increases 10x.  Sounds good.  But then to sell you need to spend time listing it on eBay, then you have to pay ebay fees, then paypal fees, then spend time packing it up, then drive it to the post office, etc.  What is your real return?  That is why I tend to focus on higher value items.

One cu ni coin was listed on ebay for over $1,000 and it was on one of Fwang's translation blogs.

If you are thinking of investment, circulating coins are the best bet. The classical example is the 40th Anniversary of the People's Bank of China one Yuan commemorative coin, which went from 1 Yuan in 1989 to about 3000 Yuan now. (The increase in value was over 300 times in the first 10 years.) A 1955 1 Fen coin in the 67 grade is selling for 700 Yuan. Taking out the 100 Yuan grading cost, the value gain is 60,000 times. Even the rarer variety of a raw 1 Yuan Great Wall coin from 1980 is selling between 250-300 Yuan, way over the price gain of precious metal coins and medals. The best comparison is between the cuni 1 Yuan and silver 10 Yuan coins in the Xinjiang and Tibet 20th Anniversary sets. While the silver coins have been declining in value, the humble cuni coins are rising. A PF68 cuni Xinjiang coin sold for 13200 Yuan: www.coin001.com/hack.php?H_name=auction&action=detail&aid=28828&skip=1, which would be the price of a PF69 silver one on the current market.

I noticed the price gain of Chinese circulating coins when I read Eric Jordan's "Commemorative Coins".

Agree.

I bought two albums of circulated coins (in GEM BU condition) from 1984 to 1993 at Shanghai airport during one of my business trip in 1995. It was RMB 55/album (face value RMB29). The current valuation is about RMB6500. In 2010, I bought 1 Yuan Cu-Ni proof coin in commemorating of calligraphic of Chinese character “HE” (harmony) for $80, the current valuation is about $700 and the Exchange price is more than $1800. All proof Cu-Ni 1 Yuan coins issued after 2000 have a gain of at least 500%, many of them are higher than 1000%. The newly issued 2014 proof Cu-Ni 1 Yuan lunar horse has appreciated more than 300% (from $25 to $85) in less than 10 months. The circulated coin is one of the few section that shows a significant price appreciation in this down market.

That does sound impressive, and I don't know anything about these coins, but the key question would be what are the prospects for future returns?  There are plenty of stocks and other investments that had great returns, and that attracted more investors because of those returns, but then they all later realized that they got in at the top.  At first glance, with a new book coming out in English sounds like it would expand the market and draw more collectors/investors, but has it already had its incredible run and has the easy money already been made?  Just something to consider.


On a broader note, I guess I invest/collect what I like.  I was just handling my gold pandas the other day, and I like the fact that their beautiful designs change each year.  I also like the fact that the gold is a hedge against inflation in a time of worldwide expanding debt and money printing.  That has psychological value to me and helps me sleep at night and feel comfortable during the day.   I'm not all in, as I have a diversified portfolio of stocks, bonds, real estate, etc.  Each has its role.

I guess I also have an admitted bias against cu/ni or other types of coins since my late grandfather showed me two US quarters when I was young:  A 1964 and a 1965.  After he explained the difference, I asked him, as a little boy, "but, why did they stop making them in silver in 1965, and instead use metal with much less value?"  That has stuck with me.  He also explained the difference between a silver dollar, a $1 silver certificate, and $1 paper bill.  Also very interesting lesson for a youngster.

Having said all that, I am happy to learn about these other coins.  It adds an interesting angle, although I'll admit my brain is already full in trying to keep track of all the nuances of the gold pandas, so I might not be able to contribute all that much.  Thanks for filling the void poconopenn, fwang, and others.

most articles say oil will be sold in the Yuan next month. 
 

 :)  I'm not sure where you read your articles pandemonium, but that seems unlikely.  We can check back in October ;)

Offline poconopenn

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Collection of circulated coins need to have a good understanding and knowledge of mintage rarity and grade rarity of each coin in the series. Most circulated coins have a mintage of multi-million, since they are circulated for many years, coin in UNC condition is becoming very difficult to find. Any circulated coin with grade higher than MS67 is considered to be rare and will be expensive. In many instant, the value of MS67 can be 1000% higher than the same coin with condition in XF or AU. Understanding of grading is one of the most important and required background in investing in circulated coins.

Proof circulated coins have a low mintage, usually less than 20000. They have been appreciated significantly during last few years and relatively expensive. Unlike 5 or 10 years ago, investing in proof circulated coin needs patient and long term strategy, the easy money has already been made. However, for collector, it may not be matter too much.

I bought many lunar proof circulated coins, when issued, at the cost around $10 and give them away as Chinese new year and birthday gift to my friend’s grandkids. It is a great item for kids to do “show and tell” in school. Now, unexpectedly, those coins can be a part of college fund for those kids.

Mr. Sun’s book is the must own reference book for anyone to plan to collect circulated coin, similar to Peter’s book for new collector of pandas.

Online fwang2450

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That does sound impressive, and I don't know anything about these coins, but the key question would be what are the prospects for future returns?  There are plenty of stocks and other investments that had great returns, and that attracted more investors because of those returns, but then they all later realized that they got in at the top.  At first glance, with a new book coming out in English sounds like it would expand the market and draw more collectors/investors, but has it already had its incredible run and has the easy money already been made?  Just something to consider.

Unlike stocks which can be evaluated based on P/E and other fundamentals, the upside of coins has few reliable predictors. If we see the collector base as the main driver of price gain, the number of circulating coin collectors has been growing pretty fast in the past few years. I mentioned before that members of coin001.com, the primary Chinese circulating coin collection site sponsored and financed by Sun Keqin, quadrupled in the last two years, in lock step with the price gain of circulating coins. Another point to consider is that serious, popular circulating coin collection in China is very young, which started about a dozen years ago. Graded coins were introduced into circulating coin collection about 3-4 years ago. Research of varieties is spotty. In many ways, the circulating coin market is still immature, which means it has a lot of potential.

The other point you brought up, whether the coins mentioned already had their day/their run, is a valid one. The price curve of the 40th Anniversary of the People's Bank of China saw a sharp rise in the first 10 years after its release (over 300 times), followed by a relatively flat rise of 10 times in the past 15 years. Now the coin is primarily bought by collectors, not investors. But then there are still many types and sets that are cheap now and have a huge upside potential, such as the 1 Yuan Great Wall coins which were minted for only 6 years. Anyone who can spot these sleepers will do well in circulating coin investment, but even the growth rate of mature coins like the 40th Anniversary of the People's Bank of China, 10 times in 15 years, is still impressive. I wish my investment portfolio could perform this well.


On a broader note, I guess I invest/collect what I like.  I was just handling my gold pandas the other day, and I like the fact that their beautiful designs change each year.  I also like the fact that the gold is a hedge against inflation in a time of worldwide expanding debt and money printing.  That has psychological value to me and helps me sleep at night and feel comfortable during the day.   I'm not all in, as I have a diversified portfolio of stocks, bonds, real estate, etc.  Each has its role.

I guess I also have an admitted bias against cu/ni or other types of coins since my late grandfather showed me two US quarters when I was young:  A 1964 and a 1965.  After he explained the difference, I asked him, as a little boy, "but, why did they stop making them in silver in 1965, and instead use metal with much less value?"  That has stuck with me.  He also explained the difference between a silver dollar, a $1 silver certificate, and $1 paper bill.  Also very interesting lesson for a youngster.

Many precious metal coin collectors started out with hedging in mind, myself included. The gold and silver content in the coins is meant as insurance against the collapse of the fiat currency. For that purpose, I am still buying silver coins, such as Perth Mint lunars, ATB and other semi-numismatic silver coins with low premium. 

At the same time, though, please do not lose sight of the fact that circulating coin collection has always been the mainstream, not commemoratives or bullion. The US coin market is dominated by circulating coins. The most pricey Chinese coin is not a 10 kilo gold lunar commemorative. It is from the family of "old silver coins" made for circulation, which sold for 25 million Chinese Yuan in 2011. Numismatics grew out of circulating coins. Such popular tricks as grades (condition) and varieties originated in circulating coins, like the large cents which gave rise to Sheldon's grading scale. You are fully entitled to collecting, investing in and enjoying precious metal coins, but do not look down on the cuni, steel or aluminium circulating coins. At the end of the day, the metal content is not what determines the premium of a coin. It is the market demand. Due to their low entry point, easy access and immense popularity, the Chinese circulating coins have outperformed modern Chinese precious metal coins in ROI by a pretty big margin.

Offline Birdman

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Another point to consider is that serious, popular circulating coin collection in China is very young, which started about a dozen years ago. Graded coins were introduced into circulating coin collection about 3-4 years ago. Research of varieties is spotty. In many ways, the circulating coin market is still immature, which means it has a lot of potential.

A question to see how my reference points compare:  Would it be fair to say that serious, popular collecting of gold pandas is very young, and started about (less than?) a dozen years ago.  Would it also be fair to say that graded coins were introduced into panda coin collecting about 3-4 years ago?  Do you have any thoughts on how mature (or immature) circulating coin collecting is compared to panda coin collecting?

At the same time, though, please do not lose sight of the fact that circulating coin collection has always been the mainstream, not commemoratives or bullion. The US coin market is dominated by circulating coins.
 

Point taken.  I wonder if this is, in part, because the core US commemoratives/bullion don't have an interesting unified theme like a panda design changing every year.  I just couldn't get excited collecting silver eagles if it is the same design each year (in large quantities), except for a small date difference.  One could argue that the US state quarter series had interesting elements to captivate, but they were produced in such huge quantities that they had no scarcity and limited investment potential from the start.

Such popular tricks as grades (condition) and varieties originated in circulating coins, like the large cents which gave rise to Sheldon's grading scale.

Any circulated coin with grade higher than MS67 is considered to be rare and will be expensive. In many instant, the value of MS67 can be 1000% higher than the same coin with condition in XF or AU.

You both mention the grading.  It is very interesting that the value of MS67 can be 1000% higher than XF or AU in circulating coins.  The premium differences for gold pandas (again, the reference point for which I have some experience) is not currently at that level, or even close.  That intrigues me.  Several years ago, it seemed that in China not much of a premium was paid for a graded panda, over a nice OMP panda.  I believe that has changed, and graded coins now have a premium, but there doesn't seem to have been a "mature" separation in prices (yet?) between 70, 69, 68, etc. as might be expected based on their grade rarity.  A question is whether that will come with further maturation, such that a low pop MS70 of a better date coin will have a markedly higher price than a high pop 69 of the same coin.  Right now, I could cite numerous examples where the low pop 70 is selling for a seemingly too small premium.  Perhaps there is something different about the panda collectors, compared to the circulating coin collectors, such that the latter will pay huge premium for a slightly better grade (67 vs 65, or 67 vs 66) where as the panda collector won't pay a similar premium for a similar difference (70 vs 68, or 70 vs 69).  Is it question of one market being more mature than the other?

You are fully entitled to collecting, investing in and enjoying precious metal coins, but do not look down on the cuni, steel or aluminium circulating coins. At the end of the day, the metal content is not what determines the premium of a coin. It is the market demand. Due to their low entry point, easy access and immense popularity, the Chinese circulating coins have outperformed modern Chinese precious metal coins in ROI by a pretty big margin.

I seek to learn more about what I don't understand.  Hence my questions.  By thinking "out loud" and writing my questions, I have the benefit of responses from knowledgeable fellow forum members.  Perhaps other forum members have similar questions and can benefit from reading the discussions.  I certainly don't intend to "look down" on other coins.  From what you say, some of the investors in those coins can laugh all the way to the bank with their investment gains!  I'm just trying to figure out what is best to collect/invest in to appeal to my tastes (we all have our inherent biases) and also have a good potential for investment returns.  Thanks again for the responses from various members. 


Offline poconopenn

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Just for information.
 
Valuation changes of Cu-Ni proof coins based on the data from coin001.com during last 12 month.

The significant price appreciation has something to do with the gaining of visibility after several post-2000 proof coins listed at Exchanges recently. Collecting/investing in circulated coins needs a better insight than PM commemorative or panda coins. Buy the book and digest the content before buy the coin.
 
Price of proof Cu-Ni coins, 9/6/2015

http://www.coin001.com/read.php?tid=75588of

Price of proof Cu-Ni coins, 7/3/2015

http://www.coin001.com/read.php?tid=71422&fpage=2

Price of proof Cu-Ni coins, 5/7/2015

http://www.coin001.com/read.php?tid=67133&fpage=3

Price of proof Cu-Ni coins, 12/30/2014

http://www.coin001.com/read.php?tid=59183&fpage=5

Price of proof Cu-Ni coins, 8/4/2014

http://www.coin001.com/read.php?tid=51902&fpage=7