Author Topic: Why Copper/Brass/Bronze MCC will outperform Precious Metals MCC  (Read 27651 times)

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Offline Mirkkanen

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Re: Why Copper/Brass/Bronze MCC will outperform Precious Metals MCC
« Reply #30 on: August 30, 2015, 10:16:48 PM »
Karma ratings are a fair indicator of the kind of person you're dealing with, not perfect, but at least a hint.

Check out Arif, poconopenn, PandaCollector, Birdman, and other veteran members. It tells you something, but much less than the quality of their posts.

barsenault

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Re: Why Copper/Brass/Bronze MCC will outperform Precious Metals MCC
« Reply #31 on: August 30, 2015, 10:20:36 PM »
Yes indeed. And I have the utmost respect for most everyone you listed, and appreciate all the info and knowledge they share.  Quite impressive for sure.  Thanks for ALL the feedback you've shared. I really do appreciate it.

Offline PandaCollector

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Re: Why Copper/Brass/Bronze MCC will outperform Precious Metals MCC
« Reply #32 on: August 30, 2015, 11:06:58 PM »
The highest returns on modern Chinese numismatic items have been in brass and aluminum coins and medals. That is because their starting price was so low. The best is probably the 1988 Hong Kong Coin Expo brass Panda because it was initially free and is now worth several thousand Dollars. You can't beat free. The 1985 brass Panda comes close with a minimal original valuation and a current value of more than $25,000.

The price of many coins with significant precious metal content is tied to their intrinsic value, for better or worse. This can viewed as an insurance policy, as KeyDatePanda points out, or as a drag on performance in a weak metal market. Nonetheless, the prices of many precious metal coins do not track trends in the gold and silver markets. In particular, demand is influenced by factors that often have little to do with the price of precious metals. An example is the heavy demand in Japan during the 1980s for less than one oz. gold Pandas. This was due to a Japanese government policy.

FWIW, several of the most successful coin "investors" I have met are people who paid a lot of attention to how much gold and silver they own and minimal attention to the price of the underlying metals. But these people were generally buying numismatic coins, not Krugerrands. Others have benefitted enormously from buying numismatically interesting coins with almost no regard for precious metal value or trends. When the rest of the world caught up to them their returns made a joke of the returns from unleveraged precious metals. An example of this is the person who bought a barrel full of 2000 silver Pandas at the new issue price. That barrel later paid for a house in a world-famous neighborhood.

in any case, I think that buying coins of any metal, be it brass or gold, for their collectible qualities is a lot more fun than buying metal bars. You will receive a guaranteed return  in enjoyment and potentially a superior ROI down the road. Good luck to all.

Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
China Pricepedia
www.pandacollector.com

Offline KeyDate1/2ozPandas

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Re: Why Copper/Brass/Bronze MCC will outperform Precious Metals MCC
« Reply #33 on: August 31, 2015, 12:00:30 AM »
I'm new to to this forum, and the ways and rules of the pros of this site, but for disclosure sake, when Arif was selling his 60 sets of this and 40 sets of that, and 80 sets of this (back in the day), were they being sold on this site (don't remember exact numbers - just giving approximate numbers)?  And was it disclosed that he had that many in his possession at the time of selling?  Curious minds would like to know.  I know mine would!

I don't think I have ever sold anything on this site, but have bought a few coins from posts on this site.  Prior to 2013 I rarely even posted on this site, maybe a few posts a year, even though I have been a member since 2008.  I sell primarily to dealers when it comes to medals, brass, platinum, silver, platinum, low grades (< ms69), PCGS and bulk lots, because I will rarely buy them back from a collector if they want to sell sometime in the future.  Gold pandas in N69 or belter, I primarily sell to collectors, because I am willing to buy those back in the future and would like to have the opportunity to get them back if prices spike. 

andrewlee10

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Re: Why Copper/Brass/Bronze MCC will outperform Precious Metals MCC
« Reply #34 on: August 31, 2015, 01:37:13 AM »
I don't think I have ever sold anything on this site, but have bought a few coins from posts on this site.  Prior to 2013 I rarely even posted on this site, maybe a few posts a year, even though I have been a member since 2008.  I sell primarily to dealers when it comes to medals, brass, platinum, silver, platinum, low grades (< ms69), PCGS and bulk lots, because I will rarely buy them back from a collector if they want to sell sometime in the future.  Gold pandas in N69 or belter, I primarily sell to collectors, because I am willing to buy those back in the future and would like to have the opportunity to get them back if prices spike. 

Hi Arif,

I like you post much especially the recent post which did stated clearly the dealers ways and strategies. I do feel gold panda is good investment and searching and looking is fun and yielding a good return is more fun.




andrewlee10

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Re: Why Copper/Brass/Bronze MCC will outperform Precious Metals MCC
« Reply #35 on: August 31, 2015, 01:42:32 AM »
The highest returns on modern Chinese numismatic items have been in brass and aluminum coins and medals. That is because their starting price was so low. The best is probably the 1988 Hong Kong Coin Expo brass Panda because it was initially free and is now worth several thousand Dollars. You can't beat free. The 1985 brass Panda comes close with a minimal original valuation and a current value of more than $25,000.

The price of many coins with significant precious metal content is tied to their intrinsic value, for better or worse. This can viewed as an insurance policy, as KeyDatePanda points out, or as a drag on performance in a weak metal market. Nonetheless, the prices of many precious metal coins do not track trends in the gold and silver markets. In particular, demand is influenced by factors that often have little to do with the price of precious metals. An example is the heavy demand in Japan during the 1980s for less than one oz. gold Pandas. This was due to a Japanese government policy.

FWIW, several of the most successful coin "investors" I have met are people who paid a lot of attention to how much gold and silver they own and minimal attention to the price of the underlying metals. But these people were generally buying numismatic coins, not Krugerrands. Others have benefitted enormously from buying numismatically interesting coins with almost no regard for precious metal value or trends. When the rest of the world caught up to them their returns made a joke of the returns from unleveraged precious metals. An example of this is the person who bought a barrel full of 2000 silver Pandas at the new issue price. That barrel later paid for a house in a world-famous neighborhood.

in any case, I think that buying coins of any metal, be it brass or gold, for their collectible qualities is a lot more fun than buying metal bars. You will receive a guaranteed return  in enjoyment and potentially a superior ROI down the road. Good luck to all.

Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
China Pricepedia
www.pandacollector.com


Hi Peter,

Agreed on the statement.

How collectors/investors to identify an item is worth to buy and sustain over time? I name the "silver pagoda" is bubble . It once 25K and down 2K now. This item has been cause a lot arguments in CCF as I heard. Personally, I like the items BUT I has no faith on it since the up down is too drastic. Sometimes, it is very tough decision. 

Offline KeepOnTrying!

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Re: Why Copper/Brass/Bronze MCC will outperform Precious Metals MCC
« Reply #36 on: August 31, 2015, 07:56:11 AM »
The highest returns on modern Chinese numismatic items have been in brass and aluminum coins and medals. That is because their starting price was so low. The best is probably the 1988 Hong Kong Coin Expo brass Panda because it was initially free and is now worth several thousand Dollars. You can't beat free. The 1985 brass Panda comes close with a minimal original valuation and a current value of more than $25,000.

The price of many coins with significant precious metal content is tied to their intrinsic value, for better or worse. This can viewed as an insurance policy, as KeyDatePanda points out, or as a drag on performance in a weak metal market. Nonetheless, the prices of many precious metal coins do not track trends in the gold and silver markets. In particular, demand is influenced by factors that often have little to do with the price of precious metals. An example is the heavy demand in Japan during the 1980s for less than one oz. gold Pandas. This was due to a Japanese government policy.

FWIW, several of the most successful coin "investors" I have met are people who paid a lot of attention to how much gold and silver they own and minimal attention to the price of the underlying metals. But these people were generally buying numismatic coins, not Krugerrands. Others have benefitted enormously from buying numismatically interesting coins with almost no regard for precious metal value or trends. When the rest of the world caught up to them their returns made a joke of the returns from unleveraged precious metals. An example of this is the person who bought a barrel full of 2000 silver Pandas at the new issue price. That barrel later paid for a house in a world-famous neighborhood.

in any case, I think that buying coins of any metal, be it brass or gold, for their collectible qualities is a lot more fun than buying metal bars. You will receive a guaranteed return  in enjoyment and potentially a superior ROI down the road. Good luck to all.

Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
China Pricepedia
www.pandacollector.com


I see successful coin collection as a long term project in which you gradually acquire experience and pick up reasonably priced items along the way. At times you may be very lucky to come across great deals. At other times you may make mistakes in your acquisitions. There is also a Ying yang type of conflict that exists in the collection identity. This is probably what makes some pay more than items are worth on occasions as has clearly happened with the silver pagodas. However the history of MCC collection is still short and the future may evaluate more kindly some of these collection decisions.
KeepOnTrying and Never Give Up!
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Offline Birdman

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Re: Why Copper/Brass/Bronze MCC will outperform Precious Metals MCC
« Reply #37 on: August 31, 2015, 09:10:47 AM »
lol.  I didn't mean 'challenge' to mean harshness. I just meant that hopefully everyone abides by this request, and that some veterans don't think they're 'above the law.'  Not sure what would gave me that crazy idea, as I'm sure everyone who sells on this site lives by the highest standards of ethics.   Thanks Mirk

You ask an important question, barsenault.  Ever since I was asked to be a moderator, I've felt a burden of even higher standards of operation.  I certainly would not want to be perceived as a hypocrite!

I occasionally offer some coins for sale on the site as a discount for forum members compared to the prices I sell them on eBay, which I price higher to cover the ebay/paypal fees.  I would not consider myself a dealer, however, just someone who seeks to sell parts of my collection to free up money to buy other things.  For instance, within the last year I bought an entire 5-coin gold proof set that had several PF70 denominations in order to get one G1/2 PF70 coin.  I paid a lot for the set and my funds are limited, so I proceeded to list the other four coins on ebay and here.  After much work, I found a home for all of the coins and I have the G1/2 PF70 in my collection.  Also, I occasionally send coins in for grading, and I will sell the 68s on this site (often at a loss), just to free up money.

I like to think that I am transparent in what I collect, and hopefully every forum member reading this will not be surprised when I say that I like to collect gold pandas in general, and G1/2 in particular.  Since I track the prices carefully, I will occasionally post a "Wow of the Day" to share my observations, as I did recently 

http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=2618.msg67449#msg67449

I was fortunate enough to buy a 1995 G1/2 MS69 a few years ago and I am genuinely amazed at how the price has spiked.  I also found a 1995 G1/2 OMP in a coin shop a few years ago and posted a photo of it one this site.  I got it graded (only a MS68) and then sold it to a big dealer for peanuts relative to the current price  :(   

I consider my posting behavior to be appropriate, because I think I've been very open.

I have bought more than one of some gold 1/2 panda dates that I think is a good investment.  They are sitting in a safety deposit box.  I do intend to sell at some point, but I think the price will go much higher, so I am holding them for now.

I remember someone keep mentioning no bump and dump in this forum.

When a coin at peak selling price and I say I have some for sell and it is good. Does this constitute bump and dump ? I am trying to learn the norm here.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pump_and_dump

I think the worst cases of pump and dump as applied to coins would be when a person actively talks bad about a coin (perhaps spreading false rumors that there are lots of fakes) in order to depress the price.  The person then actively buys at that artificially lower price.  Then, once he has a sizeable position, he (using multiple username accounts or accomplices) starts pumping the coins, saying how great they are and what wonderful investment potential they have.  Importantly, at the same time he is talking about how great they are and how he is actively buying them, he, instead, is actively selling them!  Taking advantage of the artificially high price because of all the hype.  Once he has made his money on that coin, he stops hyping it and moves on to pump the next coin type that he has acquired a sizable position in (or some other advantageous financial arrangement).  He (or she) makes money by manipulating the market and taking advantage of people who are novices and/or haven't done their due diligence. 

The above scenario is a hypothetical one and I'm not sure something has happened on the forum with all of those elements.  Having said that, I'm pretty certain that some pumping and dumping with some of the above elements has happened this site in the past.  That is why members are very sensitive to it happening again.  And why some members may even be overvigilant and have perhaps been too quick to accuse some newcomers of deceitful practices.  Besides a few bruised egos and some minor squabbling, I think we do a good job at maintaining a site that is a great place to learn and is safe for newcomers.  They can feel good that they are not going to be manipulated in a pump and dump scam. 

Oh, by the way Arif is  :thumbup:

Offline fwang2450

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Re: Why Copper/Brass/Bronze MCC will outperform Precious Metals MCC
« Reply #38 on: August 31, 2015, 12:06:04 PM »
The highest returns on modern Chinese numismatic items have been in brass and aluminum coins and medals. That is because their starting price was so low. The best is probably the 1988 Hong Kong Coin Expo brass Panda because it was initially free and is now worth several thousand Dollars. You can't beat free. The 1985 brass Panda comes close with a minimal original valuation and a current value of more than $25,000.

The price of many coins with significant precious metal content is tied to their intrinsic value, for better or worse. This can viewed as an insurance policy, as KeyDatePanda points out, or as a drag on performance in a weak metal market. Nonetheless, the prices of many precious metal coins do not track trends in the gold and silver markets. In particular, demand is influenced by factors that often have little to do with the price of precious metals. An example is the heavy demand in Japan during the 1980s for less than one oz. gold Pandas. This was due to a Japanese government policy.

FWIW, several of the most successful coin "investors" I have met are people who paid a lot of attention to how much gold and silver they own and minimal attention to the price of the underlying metals. But these people were generally buying numismatic coins, not Krugerrands. Others have benefitted enormously from buying numismatically interesting coins with almost no regard for precious metal value or trends. When the rest of the world caught up to them their returns made a joke of the returns from unleveraged precious metals. An example of this is the person who bought a barrel full of 2000 silver Pandas at the new issue price. That barrel later paid for a house in a world-famous neighborhood.

in any case, I think that buying coins of any metal, be it brass or gold, for their collectible qualities is a lot more fun than buying metal bars. You will receive a guaranteed return  in enjoyment and potentially a superior ROI down the road. Good luck to all.

Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
China Pricepedia
www.pandacollector.com

I agree with Peter, especially on the last paragraph. One point I want to add about base metal circulating coins is that they are known to everybody in China and have a much larger collector base. The membership of the circulating coin collection site coin001.com grew from 20,000 when I joined it in mid 2013, to about 80,000 now. This rapid expansion of the collector base is driving up the prices of base metal coins. I have met with some people who started base metal coin collection by searching through their pocket change and noticed something weird about the coins (doubled dies, very late die state, cracked dies, die rotation, cuds and so on). This advantage of popularity, in addition to the extremely low entry point, contributes to the rise of the circulating coins, the collection of which, by the way, has a much shorter history than precious metal coins. Serious base metal coin collection in China started only this century.

Offline KeepOnTrying!

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Re: Why Copper/Brass/Bronze MCC will outperform Precious Metals MCC
« Reply #39 on: August 31, 2015, 12:21:36 PM »
You ask an important question, barsenault.  Ever since I was asked to be a moderator, I've felt a burden of even higher standards of operation.  I certainly would not want to be perceived as a hypocrite!

I occasionally offer some coins for sale on the site as a discount for forum members compared to the prices I sell them on eBay, which I price higher to cover the ebay/paypal fees.  I would not consider myself a dealer, however, just someone who seeks to sell parts of my collection to free up money to buy other things.  For instance, within the last year I bought an entire 5-coin gold proof set that had several PF70 denominations in order to get one G1/2 PF70 coin.  I paid a lot for the set and my funds are limited, so I proceeded to list the other four coins on ebay and here.  After much work, I found a home for all of the coins and I have the G1/2 PF70 in my collection.  Also, I occasionally send coins in for grading, and I will sell the 68s on this site (often at a loss), just to free up money.

I like to think that I am transparent in what I collect, and hopefully every forum member reading this will not be surprised when I say that I like to collect gold pandas in general, and G1/2 in particular.  Since I track the prices carefully, I will occasionally post a "Wow of the Day" to share my observations, as I did recently 

http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=2618.msg67449#msg67449

I was fortunate enough to buy a 1995 G1/2 MS69 a few years ago and I am genuinely amazed at how the price has spiked.  I also found a 1995 G1/2 OMP in a coin shop a few years ago and posted a photo of it one this site.  I got it graded (only a MS68) and then sold it to a big dealer for peanuts relative to the current price  :(   

I consider my posting behavior to be appropriate, because I think I've been very open.

I have bought more than one of some gold 1/2 panda dates that I think is a good investment.  They are sitting in a safety deposit box.  I do intend to sell at some point, but I think the price will go much higher, so I am holding them for now.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pump_and_dump

I think the worst cases of pump and dump as applied to coins would be when a person actively talks bad about a coin (perhaps spreading false rumors that there are lots of fakes) in order to depress the price.  The person then actively buys at that artificially lower price.  Then, once he has a sizeable position, he (using multiple username accounts or accomplices) starts pumping the coins, saying how great they are and what wonderful investment potential they have.  Importantly, at the same time he is talking about how great they are and how he is actively buying them, he, instead, is actively selling them!  Taking advantage of the artificially high price because of all the hype.  Once he has made his money on that coin, he stops hyping it and moves on to pump the next coin type that he has acquired a sizable position in (or some other advantageous financial arrangement).  He (or she) makes money by manipulating the market and taking advantage of people who are novices and/or haven't done their due diligence. 

The above scenario is a hypothetical one and I'm not sure something has happened on the forum with all of those elements.  Having said that, I'm pretty certain that some pumping and dumping with some of the above elements has happened this site in the past.  That is why members are very sensitive to it happening again.  And why some members may even be overvigilant and have perhaps been too quick to accuse some newcomers of deceitful practices.  Besides a few bruised egos and some minor squabbling, I think we do a good job at maintaining a site that is a great place to learn and is safe for newcomers.  They can feel good that they are not going to be manipulated in a pump and dump scam. 

Oh, by the way Arif is  :thumbup:

I believe CCF has an established record of rooting out questionable practices and forum members. This is documented in the forum archives. I also see continuing efforts to ensure that things don't get out of hand as they once did in the past.

This is why I have now done most of my postings in this forum because I am confident of the integrity of the administrative staff as well as the veteran members who are ready to step in without fear or favor to correct any aberrant situation.

This is also one of the reasons I have stuck to this forum despite recent attempts to otherize me and incessant smiting of which I don't know what I have done that is so egregious as to merit >20 smites often on a daily basis and even 2-3 times a day.

Several forum members have my personal and contact data as a result of transactions with them or discussions by PM. I don't think it is safe for such details to be presented here as this is not a private discussion forum and nothing is sacrosanct on the internet.
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Offline pandamonium

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Re: Why Copper/Brass/Bronze MCC will outperform Precious Metals MCC
« Reply #40 on: August 31, 2015, 01:57:58 PM »
I agree with Peter, especially on the last paragraph. One point I want to add about base metal circulating coins is that they are known to everybody in China and have a much larger collector base. The membership of the circulating coin collection site coin001.com grew from 20,000 when I joined it in mid 2013, to about 80,000 now. This rapid expansion of the collector base is driving up the prices of base metal coins. I have met with some people who started base metal coin collection by searching through their pocket change and noticed something weird about the coins (doubled dies, very late die state, cracked dies, die rotation, cuds and so on). This advantage of popularity, in addition to the extremely low entry point, contributes to the rise of the circulating coins, the collection of which, by the way, has a much shorter history than precious metal coins. Serious base metal coin collection in China started only this century.



Fwang, I think you should start a new topic on circulating coins as there is alot to learn and prices may surprise some.   My ebay searches resulted in very few offered in UNC or worn circulating condition.  Where are all the circulating coins?  The UNC?.......

Offline SANDAC

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Re: Why Copper/Brass/Bronze MCC will outperform Precious Metals MCC
« Reply #41 on: August 31, 2015, 03:16:56 PM »
There already is a long thread on fen coins of PRC: 
http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=1078.0

Offline fwang2450

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Re: Why Copper/Brass/Bronze MCC will outperform Precious Metals MCC
« Reply #42 on: August 31, 2015, 04:48:34 PM »


Fwang, I think you should start a new topic on circulating coins as there is alot to learn and prices may surprise some.   My ebay searches resulted in very few offered in UNC or worn circulating condition.  Where are all the circulating coins?  The UNC?.......
Chinese circulating coins were not exported like the precious metal coins except for the 1979-1986 bank sets, and so they are mostly available in China, although on eBay you can see some Hong Kong sellers selling graded circulating coins now and then. There are also offers of 1997-2000 bank sets, usually at a lower price than in China.

Offline davidt3251

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Re: Why Copper/Brass/Bronze MCC will outperform Precious Metals MCC
« Reply #43 on: August 31, 2015, 05:52:48 PM »
I believe CCF has an established record of rooting out questionable practices and forum members. This is documented in the forum archives. I also see continuing efforts to ensure that things don't get out of hand as they once did in the past.

This is why I have now done most of my postings in this forum because I am confident of the integrity of the administrative staff as well as the veteran members who are ready

I suggest you read posts back around 2011-2013 when CCF promoted the 3.3oz silver God of Wealth in 69 as a $5600 medal. Then, if you wanted one, certain unnamed CCF members would require you FedEx the $5600 in small denomination notes. The veterans were largely around at that time.

Now it's a $900 medal.


Offline Birdman

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Re: Why Copper/Brass/Bronze MCC will outperform Precious Metals MCC
« Reply #44 on: August 31, 2015, 06:12:39 PM »
I suggest you read posts back around 2011-2013 when CCF promoted the 3.3oz silver God of Wealth in 69 as a $5600 medal. Then, if you wanted one, certain unnamed CCF members would require you FedEx the $5600 in small denomination notes. The veterans were largely around at that time.

Now it's a $900 medal.

Wow, they required you to FedEx a large payment in small denomination bills?  That would raise red flags for me!