Author Topic: Kindly Help Verify Authenticity - China Soviet 500 coin  (Read 6299 times)

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Offline Little Finger

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Kindly Help Verify Authenticity - China Soviet 500 coin
« on: July 16, 2015, 09:03:58 AM »
Fake or Real ?

Offline TomG

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NGC presents this as a genuine Y-512 1934 Soviet Chinese 500 Cash:
http://www.ngccoin.com/price-guide/world/china-peoples-republic-szechuan-shensi-soviet-50-cuid-41949-duid-120898
Obverse shows narrow stars in the perimeter legend. Characters are radially aligned  from the face center through the points and vertices of the large center star.
Reverse also shows radially aligned characters arranged evenly around the center.

The sample coin in the post, shown below, does not show the same radial character alignment and even arrangement. Border denticles appear unevenly spaced. Rim width changes are abrupt rather than gradual around the edge of either face.

This looks like an imitation 500 cash.

Offline poconopenn

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Re: Kindly Help Verify Authenticity - China Soviet 500 coin
« Reply #2 on: July 17, 2015, 04:25:43 PM »
Excellent analysis. Yes, IMO, this is a reproduction, based on the uneven rim, dentals, and surface.

I would like to add more information about this copper coin.

According to Krause World Coins, this 1934 Szechuan Shensi 500 cents copper coin has three versions.

Y-512: small stars flanking date, 35 mm in diameter (picture 1), NGC graded coin mentioned in TomG's post.

Y-512.1: large stars, flanking date and hammer handle across lower leg of star, 32.5 mm in diameter (picture 2).

Y-512.2: Hammer handle extends between right leg of star (NGC graded coin actually above the star), 33-34 mm in diameter (picture 3).

Unlike three versions mentioned above, the picture 4, posted by litter finger, shows a simplified Chinese character, which was not officially recognized by China until 1949. 


Offline SANDAC

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Re: Kindly Help Verify Authenticity - China Soviet 500 coin
« Reply #4 on: July 19, 2015, 01:27:39 PM »
I don't know anything about the Szechuan-Shensi Soviet 500 cash other than what I read in Krause's Standard Catalog of World Coins.  It stated that there are three varieties of 500 cash: Y512 (small star), Y512.1 (large star, hammer handle goes across the lower leg of star), and Y512.2 (large star, hammer handle goes across the upper leg of star).  In the catalog picture, Y512.1 has the Simplied "join" character and Y512.2/Y512 both have the Traditional form.  Based on the pictures in the catalog, I'll say your coin is Y512.1 like PCGS' 31564641.

I don't know about fake coin identification, but I'm pretty handy with picture overlay, so overlaying your coin with PCGS' 31564641 (see attached animated GIF), I can see there are significant discrepancy between yours and PCGS 31564641.  In particular is the position of date (1934)--the relationship of the character "4" with the character "year".

Edit: my apology: the annotation of the pictures is incorrect.  The annotation should be swapped between the coins.

Offline poconopenn

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Re: Kindly Help Verify Authenticity - China Soviet 500 coin
« Reply #5 on: July 19, 2015, 07:16:08 PM »
Now, it is becoming very interesting. We have seen 5 versions. The picture posted in my previous posting for Y512.1 (tradition Chinese) was copied from Heritage Auction, 2007 Long Beach Expo.

 http://coins.ha.com/itm/china/world-coins/china-soviet-republic-500-cash-1934-km-y5121-shensi-soviet-nice-brown-xf/a/44001-74144.s?ic4=ListView-ShortDescription-071515

Even more interesting, at PCGS website, PCGS has graded many 1960 restrike similar coins, but with 200 cents denomination (781045 and 781046).

http://www.pcgs.com/pop/detail.aspx?c=2419

People’s Republic of China (PRC) was found in 1949. As early as in 1927, the bank associated to communist army started to issue paper money and copper and silver coins in its controlled territory. The bank moved alone with the army. This coin is one of them issued during that period of time.

The eBay listed coin was graded by PCGS as planchet flaw XF details Y512.1 The definition of planchet flaw usually means the planchet had a rough surface. In this certified coin, the surface is definitely rough. However, there is a clear difference between the rough surface and pimples on the surface. This certified coin has many pimples. PCGS grader also fails to notice this coin has a major error, 90 degree rotation. In addition, the style of all Chinese charters in this PCGS certified coin are also different from little finger’s coin.
 
Just for information.
 
The first coin made by China Mint after the formation of PRC was 1955 aluminum 1 fen. The Chinese characters in this fen coin are traditional form. In fact, all Chinese characters in 1, 2, 5 fen coins from 1955 to 2011 are in traditional form. All Chinese characters in PM MCC made by China Mint, are in simplified form, except for historical figure series, wild life animal series and few sports related coins, which contract initiators provided the designs, are in traditional form.

Attached are pictures from PCGS website for Y512, Y512.1 and Y512.2.   

Offline Little Finger

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Re: Kindly Help Verify Authenticity - China Soviet 500 coin
« Reply #6 on: July 20, 2015, 01:18:56 AM »
So the only way I can be sure is to send it in for grading ? But hearing the general sentiments here, I'd probably waste 50 bucks.

Offline KeepOnTrying!

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Re: Kindly Help Verify Authenticity - China Soviet 500 coin
« Reply #7 on: July 20, 2015, 02:04:20 AM »
So the only way I can be sure is to send it in for grading ? But hearing the general sentiments here, I'd probably waste 50 bucks.
I don't know if it is possible but no harm in trying. Before deciding on sending in the coin or not why don't you call up the grading company, speak to someone senior there and then send him/her a link to the discussion here and the photos. At one level this is no more about making 50 bucks or whatever. It should brighten someone's day at PCGS to pull out their data file and info and find out where yours fits in. They can then tell you to send it in for formal grading and authentication or not. It's also not a one-way street because they are going to keep photos of your coin and data they generate from their examination of the actual coin or photos of. Unless the consensus here is that your coin is not official mintage. Good luck!
KeepOnTrying and Never Give Up!
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Offline SANDAC

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Re: Kindly Help Verify Authenticity - China Soviet 500 coin
« Reply #8 on: July 20, 2015, 03:37:57 PM »
So the only way I can be sure is to send it in for grading ? But hearing the general sentiments here, I'd probably waste 50 bucks.

I have 15 Y512.1 images in my NGC database.  The image qualities are poor, especially with low-
contrast circulated copper coins, but I can distinguish about 4 significant variations among them. 
Two of them have significant die rotation of 90 degree between obverse and reverse.  So there are
great deals of variations even in the Y512.1 catagory.  On the other hand, there are some disturbing
bumps in your coin such as the large lump between the end of the hammer handle and the star and the
area at the right of 文百五.  Speaking for myself, I'd submit it and see what happened.  I've
submitted a number of coins deemed questionable in this forum and I yet to have a "not genuine"
returned back to me.

FWIW, for the Y512.1 my database contained 15 graded and 7 questionable authen/not genuine.

These are the 15 NGC graded Y512.1 if you are interested in doing your own research: 2768963-009,2762667-028,2764536-023,2770389-053,2761869-003,2771169-008,2763939-023,2776341-003,3353961-009,3353961-012,3359409-003,2763939-024,2765332-018,2770389-052,3635765-001