Author Topic: 2 varieties of the Nanjing mint panda 2014 copper medal  (Read 20071 times)

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Offline zafeu

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2 varieties of the Nanjing mint panda 2014 copper medal
« on: May 30, 2015, 05:49:58 AM »
Hi everyone.
My first post here, just to report 2 amazing varieties among the copper Nanjing panda 2014: the gate side may be rotated by about 30 degrees clockwise or trigonometric way. Here are the NGC references: 3877904-066 (trigonometric) and 3877904-057 (clockwise). According to dragonzeng dealer, the clockwise one is the rarer.
Really amazing varieties among a mintage of only 380 ! I think it's the first "rotate" variety seen among the panda coins/medals... Am I right?

Offline Birdman

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Re: 2 varieties of the Nanjing mint panda 2014 copper medal
« Reply #1 on: May 30, 2015, 07:38:36 AM »
Hi everyone.
My first post here, just to report 2 amazing varieties among the copper Nanjing panda 2014: the gate side may be rotated by about 30 degrees clockwise or trigonometric way. Here are the NGC references: 3877904-066 (trigonometric) and 3877904-057 (clockwise). According to dragonzeng dealer, the clockwise one is the rarer.
Really amazing varieties among a mintage of only 380 ! I think it's the first "rotate" variety seen among the panda coins/medals... Am I right?

Here is a link to a previously discussed die-rotated panda.
http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=8656.msg50430#msg50430

If you are new to the forum, and interested in some of the new releases such as the Nanjing Mint medals, it may be worth reading the following thread.
http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=11367.msg65952#msg65952

Offline SANDAC

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Re: 2 varieties of the Nanjing mint panda 2014 copper medal
« Reply #2 on: May 30, 2015, 08:05:07 AM »
zafeu,
Minor die rotation is quite common in modern Chinese coins.  Most of them are too minor to be recognized. 

http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=7805.0

I measured the die rotation of the two NGC coins you mentioned and the rotation is 29.7 degrees.  The rotation of the 1991 25Y panda mentioned in Birdman's link is 28 degree and that is sufficient to receive the "mint error" designation.  So there is a reasonable chance that one of the Nanjing panda 2014 may receive the mint error designation.

Offline zafeu

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Re: 2 varieties of the Nanjing mint panda 2014 copper medal
« Reply #3 on: May 30, 2015, 09:29:57 AM »
Thank you very much for these informations. The admin may cancel my post. It's a newbie's one ;)

Offline poconopenn

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Re: 2 varieties of the Nanjing mint panda 2014 copper medal
« Reply #4 on: May 30, 2015, 12:33:05 PM »
The rarity of the error coin depends on the minting company. The highly respected Mints such as US Mint, Perth Mint, Royal Canadian Mint, etc., in a rare instant, produces an error coin. Therefore, the error coins produced by those Mints will command a higher premium over the non-error coins because of its rarity. However, when a Mint with a not so good reputation and produces a high percentage (about 30% for this medal) of error coin, such as Nanjing Mint, it is just a poor minting process and the premium over non-error coins is very limited, unless it can improve its minting technology and becomes a reputable Mint in the future.
 
2014 Nanjing Mint panda medals are poorly made and its design is very similar to 1995 5 oz. silver panda coin. Attached are pictures of 2014 Nanjing Mint silver panda medal, 1995 fake 5 oz. silver panda and 1995 genuine 5 oz. silver panda.

barsenault

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Re: 2 varieties of the Nanjing mint panda 2014 copper medal
« Reply #5 on: September 09, 2015, 04:34:12 PM »
I know, here we are, one of the favorites of many in this community.  I know, the horrible medal, the bald medal, the sucky Nanjing mint.  :w00t:

However, after 3 tries, I'm happy to say, they finally listened.  It took cajoling, encouraging, and possibly setting up a call with the Nanjing Mint to prove they were authentic.  N17 Luckily they complied, and I'm one who has paved the way for others to now be graded...I think there are only 3 pieces graded.   :001_tt2:  And there are only 30 planned, actual is probably a bit lower.

Thanks for encouraging me to post this - you know who you are.   N66

I had 3 sets.  Sold one a while ago.  And one goes in the treasure box.  And this is my last one for sale.  





chinesemedals.com

Offline KeepOnTrying!

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Re: 2 varieties of the Nanjing mint panda 2014 copper medal
« Reply #6 on: September 09, 2015, 04:50:01 PM »
Looks like your medals made it into NGC slabs eventually. Congratulations! Perhaps later on you can share with us some of the insight you gained from this venture. I already picked up on the importance of making copies of COAs and enclosing with rare or brand new coin submissions. Seems like you spoke to them on the phone too. I assumed that the Chinese mints had communication channels set up with the grading agencies for proactively communicating new coin information and data. You are certainly persistent and pioneering. Got to give you that. Good job!
KeepOnTrying and Never Give Up!
That lion is also after you!

Offline Russ 736

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Re: 2 varieties of the Nanjing mint panda 2014 copper medal
« Reply #7 on: September 09, 2015, 06:29:09 PM »
Barsenault,
                I had no idea there were two of us pushing for these medals to be recognized. They had been entered into the NGC Panda medals set so I figured that they had already graded a set when I sent mine in for grading. Guess what? they sent them back as not verifiable. I contacted NGC and had a conversation that must have sounded a lot like the ones you had with them. They questioned the OMP ( they had removed that during their process ) and then said they didn't get the COAs ( I included them with the medals as I always do ). I resubmitted them with the COA copies the original size in color and a set of 150% size so they could read them easily. I offered to send in the boxes ( as you know, they are somewhat unique ) but they declined that offer. Then they sat on them for over a month and when they moved to graded/quality control, they stayed there another month. I thought they would wind up getting kicked back. I got tired of waiting for the bad news so I contacted Lisa Berzins ( a very nice lady ). She followed up and found that they had been graded but another medal in the order required a special slab. They are waiting on that medal to be finished to ship everything together. Congratulations and thank you for your work to get your set graded as I'm sure it had to help get mine graded too.

Russ

barsenault

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Re: 2 varieties of the Nanjing mint panda 2014 copper medal
« Reply #8 on: September 09, 2015, 08:38:21 PM »
Hey Russ and KOT,

Yes, I was very disappointed initially too.  But then my disappointment turned to determination.  I think you and I had similar experiences Russ.  I sent mine in with no COA the first time.  I know, rookie move.  Actually, I was a little nervous about them losing my COA's.  Then they said, well, just send your medals back, and include the COA's.  I did so.  I sent the originals.  I made sure they knew how important it was that I get those back.  They send them back again, unverifiable.  I was ticked.  I finally contacted some folks over in China, and asked if they could put me in touch with the Nanjing Mint, or perhaps write on their letterhead, saying they were authentic. I was given the go ahead to write the note, and they would put it on the letterhead.  So I wrote a note letting them know what the options are.  I said I can broker a conversation with the nanjing mint to prove their veracity or send a letter with their letterhead, where they indicate they are legit.  I get a call from Laura a couple days later, she said, we don't need anything, we will grade them.  I sent them in, and finally got them in today.  It was not an easy or simple process, but I'm glad we stuck by our guns.  Now the world can know they are authentic, even though we knew all along. :-))  Yes, even from that sucky mint otherwise known as the Nanjing mint. hehehe. 

Congrats on scoring a PF68.  I scored a PF68 and PFF67.  The 68's are getting tucked away for a long, long time.  I guess the standard to shoot is PF69 (probably the equivelent of PF70 in antique).  Here's to hoping someone gets one out of the 30 that may be out there. 

Thanks guys.  I'm glad our perseverance won them over. 

andrewlee10

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Re: 2 varieties of the Nanjing mint panda 2014 copper medal
« Reply #9 on: September 09, 2015, 11:58:34 PM »
The rarity of the error coin depends on the minting company. The highly respected Mints such as US Mint, Perth Mint, Royal Canadian Mint, etc., in a rare instant, produces an error coin. Therefore, the error coins produced by those Mints will command a higher premium over the non-error coins because of its rarity. However, when a Mint with a not so good reputation and produces a high percentage (about 30% for this medal) of error coin, such as Nanjing Mint, it is just a poor minting process and the premium over non-error coins is very limited, unless it can improve its minting technology and becomes a reputable Mint in the future.
 
2014 Nanjing Mint panda medals are poorly made and its design is very similar to 1995 5 oz. silver panda coin. Attached are pictures of 2014 Nanjing Mint silver panda medal, 1995 fake 5 oz. silver panda and 1995 genuine 5 oz. silver panda.


Please give us a list of error medals and coins minted by Nanjing Mints so we can category Nanjing mints is in bad reputation and always make errors.

As I know Royal Mints also mints wrong the horse and Britannia 2014. However, I do not know the errors of whole mintage. So can we make Royal Mints is bad reputation? I say NO.

2013 and 2014 proof silver Britannia are white spot around. How about compare  to Nanjing mints silver product. Is Nanjing mints tend to produce white spot silver product?

Offline poconopenn

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Re: 2 varieties of the Nanjing mint panda 2014 copper medal
« Reply #10 on: September 10, 2015, 11:36:28 PM »
Please give us a list of error medals and coins minted by Nanjing Mints so we can category Nanjing mints is in bad reputation and always make errors.

As I know Royal Mints also mints wrong the horse and Britannia 2014. However, I do not know the errors of whole mintage. So can we make Royal Mints is bad reputation? I say NO.

2013 and 2014 proof silver Britannia are white spot around. How about compare  to Nanjing mints silver product. Is Nanjing mints tend to produce white spot silver product?

Nanjing Mint is the factory to supply minting and printing machine to other Mints and banknote printing companies. The major products are minting and printing machines, Cu-Ni circulated coins and government coupons.  The China Mints (Shanghai, Shenyang and Shenzhen) have made more than 400 medals annually during last three years. Usually, those medals were commissioned by the third parties with mintage less than 5,000.  Nanjing Mint has no expertise in make medals, especially medal made with PM. Perhaps, you can provide names of medals made by Nanjing Mint in the past, since I do not know any and have no interest to do the search either.


Here is another example of risk involving in investing in recently issued medal. This Kuan Yin medal issued by Shanghai Mint in later Jan. of this year. The mintage of copper, 1 oz. silver and 2 oz. silver are 1599, 99 and 199 respectively with offering prices of RMB99, RMB850 and RMB850. Now, after 7 1/2 months, they are still available at the same price.

http://shop.jibi.net/dispbbs.asp?boardid=25&id=300199&page=2&star=1

IMO, the Nanjing Mint medal mentioned in this thread is more like two baby polar bears than panda, since panda has black fur on the arms, legs, area around the eye and ears. Just look at the attached original design of this medal and compare to the finished medal, clearly, Nanjing Mint had done a very poor job. The silver medal is very similar to those fake pandas seen at eBay, no black fur in any part of panda.

The white spots will be developed if the silver coin/medal is not stored properly. The number of white spots also depends on the total area of mirror surface in the design. The Nanjing medal has a very limited mirror surface. 

barsenault

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Re: 2 varieties of the Nanjing mint panda 2014 copper medal
« Reply #11 on: September 10, 2015, 11:42:53 PM »
lol.  And I don't mean the pictures posted.

andrewlee10

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Re: 2 varieties of the Nanjing mint panda 2014 copper medal
« Reply #12 on: September 10, 2015, 11:55:28 PM »
Nanjing Mint is the factory to supply minting and printing machine to other Mints and banknote printing companies. The major products are minting and printing machines, Cu-Ni circulated coins and government coupons.  The China Mints (Shanghai, Shenyang and Shenzhen) have made more than 400 medals annually during last three years. Usually, those medals were commissioned by the third parties with mintage less than 5,000.  Nanjing Mint has no expertise in make medals, especially medal made with PM. Perhaps, you can provide names of medals made by Nanjing Mint in the past, since I do not know any and have no interest to do the search either.

You quote Nanjing mints is poor quality for medal producing BUT is saying now "since I do not know any and have no interest to do the search either". This statement is contradict. If not knowing and not searching then say an official mints is bad.....

andrewlee10

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Re: 2 varieties of the Nanjing mint panda 2014 copper medal
« Reply #13 on: September 11, 2015, 12:08:17 AM »
Here is another example of risk involving in investing in recently issued medal. This Kuan Yin medal issued by Shanghai Mint in later Jan. of this year. The mintage of copper, 1 oz. silver and 2 oz. silver are 1599, 99 and 199 respectively with offering prices of RMB99, RMB850 and RMB850. Now, after 7 1/2 months, they are still available at the same price.

http://shop.jibi.net/dispbbs.asp?boardid=25&id=300199&page=2&star=1



the first page of the sell thread of jibi in your link state the price and someone still buying now. However, it does not stated the agreed buying price.



Look at this which china auction house sell at 456 for PF69 brass which omp is at 99. if omp 99 plus grading fee is 150 which cost is 249 which sold at 456 which is 1 times higher. Take into consideration the auction house commission yet to include in the 456.

Reader here have common sense.

andrewlee10

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Re: 2 varieties of the Nanjing mint panda 2014 copper medal
« Reply #14 on: September 11, 2015, 12:20:25 AM »
IMO, the Nanjing Mint medal mentioned in this thread is more like two baby polar bears than panda, since panda has black fur on the arms, legs, area around the eye and ears. Just look at the attached original design of this medal and compare to the finished medal, clearly, Nanjing Mint had done a very poor job. The silver medal is very similar to those fake pandas seen at eBay, no black fur in any part of panda.

The white spots will be developed if the silver coin/medal is not stored properly. The number of white spots also depends on the total area of mirror surface in the design. The Nanjing medal has a very limited mirror surface. 


First, this is ugly and bald panda design by Nanjing mints which I totally agree. However, this is selling so well even there are few type of material used for this ugly and bald design panda. Why those collectors buy it and pay for high premium???? All of them loss of mind and no brainer?

1995 silver panda coin is 2 siting panda which 2014 Nanjing panda is one siting and another one is walking which is not copy for my personnel view. You can wait for the panda expo 3 medal design by shanghai mints and comment on it. Please remember to keep commenting on it like this Nanjing panda. Otherwise I am suspecting something is wrong.

Frank Wong and other collectors have done a lot research on white spot development on coins and medal. Storage is one of the small factor for the white spot development which is not the main factor.

You claim Nanjing mints has poor minting technology as compare to other. White spot of coins/medal can cause by minting technology and processes. Please post as many photo here to prove that Nanjing mints produce poorly design and white spot prompted products than three other official mints and internationally mints. Maple by Canada mints, proof britannia 2013 and 2014, all tend to white spot which due to the minting processes as my view.

Panda expo 1, macao panda expo 1, long corridor of classical garden and recent years of silver bullion panda coin which produce by Shanghai mints which you claim more superior than Nanjing mints for minting technology are all famous of white spot. Why you are not mentioned it on and on and on?

I will be away for few weeks which might not access to internet. Hope the readers understood the situation and this is my personal view and no manipulation.

I sold many Nanjing panda even I do not like the design. I am seller which product has demand I likely to sell if I has access to it. I sold many panda expo 1 and long corridor classical garden too. I sold monster box silver panda coin too.
 

barsenault

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Re: 2 varieties of the Nanjing mint panda 2014 copper medal
« Reply #15 on: September 11, 2015, 06:30:15 AM »
Yeah Pconopenn, what about it? lol.

Thanks for the info Andy.

Offline Birdman

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Re: 2 varieties of the Nanjing mint panda 2014 copper medal
« Reply #16 on: September 11, 2015, 09:08:25 AM »
First, this is ugly and bald panda design by Nanjing mints which I totally agree. However, this is selling so well even there are few type of material used for this ugly and bald design panda. Why those collectors buy it and pay for high premium???? All of them loss of mind and no brainer?

This is a very interesting question.  There are several opinions that have been expressed in this and other threads.  Poconopenn can rest assured, however, knowing that he has openly expressed his concerns regarding this issue.  If someone still chooses to play the game on this and similar items, then that is their choice.  What is true is that someone will be making money.

barsenault

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Re: 2 varieties of the Nanjing mint panda 2014 copper medal
« Reply #17 on: September 11, 2015, 09:25:18 AM »
It's no different with any other medal or coin Birdman.  Because one person deems it ugly doesn't mean everyone does.  One man's opinion is just that, an opinion.  I happen to like them, does that make me any more right or wrong than anyone else who thinks they are ugly? Nope.  But one does have to wonder about why such a negative vibe against one mint, when ALL the mints have their issues. Yes, they all do.  Have you taken a look at EVERY SINGLE 1st Panda Expo produced?  Terrible staining.  Terrible spots.  Does that mean the mint sucks big bags of dog poop, nope.  Yes, someone is making money, just like in the Pagodas, Pandas, Gold Fish, Classical Gardens, Mammoths, et...need I go on?  I think you guys need to check your biases at the door as much as we may need to.  Thanks.

Offline 1668Chris

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Re: 2 varieties of the Nanjing mint panda 2014 copper medal
« Reply #18 on: September 11, 2015, 09:37:06 AM »
You like them because you are invested in them and selling them on your website.  There is a big difference in my mind btw white spots vs poor design.  Poconopenn speaks from years of experience and tremendous insight in the coin market.   N3 N3.   You should listen.


barsenault

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Re: 2 varieties of the Nanjing mint panda 2014 copper medal
« Reply #19 on: September 11, 2015, 09:48:10 AM »
Who cares if we are selling them on our website?  We have lots of other stuff on the website. lol.  I happen to love the 2008's Banknotes too. And all the other stuff on the website. So what? That logic holds no weight.  He may be respected, but he's not an untouchable. What he says isn't the holy bible. We simply have to agree to disagree. As andy said, if these were so bad, and so horrible, and so ugly, and the quality was in the pooper, then these would have tanked.  The market speaks louder than you and the other naysayers.  And my bet is, there are many well seasoned folks from this site who have invested in this series...I know this to be a fact.  Are they dumb? Stupid? Wrong? Me don't thinks so.  But time will tell.

P.S. We've been very clear about being primarily collectors of coins and medals; but we are also selling.  Just as you probably use your own product, because you love it, but you are also meeting a need in the market place.  N27

Offline Birdman

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Re: 2 varieties of the Nanjing mint panda 2014 copper medal
« Reply #20 on: September 11, 2015, 10:30:07 AM »
But time will tell.

Yes, time will tell.  In ten years (or some other time the future) we will be able to calmly check the history, updating this and other threads, and see how different investments have performed.  Some investments will be more successful than others.  All one can do at this point is listen to the various perspectives, weigh the pros and cons, and put your money where you think it has the most potential to grow (or where you just like the product, collect it, and don't care about the investment potential).  I can say that history shows that it is sometimes a great time to invest when market sentiment is very negative.  Sometimes not.

barsenault

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Re: 2 varieties of the Nanjing mint panda 2014 copper medal
« Reply #21 on: September 11, 2015, 10:49:24 AM »
Amen Birdman.  I hope all of us making investments into the Chinese medals do well.  I wish no harm or ill-will toward others. Take care. Oh, and I'm sure I have some winners and some losers in my treasure chest...I do believe the Nanjing series will be a winner.  That's my opinion, and I'm sticking by it...not simply because I'm selling it...I collect it.  Just like others on this site who collect Pagodas, and may still have a set or two, but back in the day they sold a set or two for 25K.  It doesn't make them any less a collector than me. :-))

Offline SANDAC

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Re: 2 varieties of the Nanjing mint panda 2014 copper medal
« Reply #22 on: September 11, 2015, 11:59:54 AM »
We simply have to agree to disagree.
That is the operative phrase.  I and poconopenn have had a number of differences of opinions, but I believe we had friendly and productive conversations and we agree to disagree at the end.  This is what CCF is about.  We are not expected to have identical thoughts at the beginning, middle, and end of a discussion.  Just because you have different opinions than the rest of the community doesn't mean you are wrong.  The big reason that the panda of the 1990's are so scarce and expensive is because China was a third-world country then and needed foreign currencies.  Panda were just bullions and no respectable collectors would collect them.  And varieties? well that's just manufacturing defects to be sneer at.  I bought several sheets of yr2000 silver panda at mostly bullion price and give them away as Chinese New Year and birthday gifts! 

Diversity of opinion is a good thing!

Offline Birdman

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Re: 2 varieties of the Nanjing mint panda 2014 copper medal
« Reply #23 on: September 11, 2015, 12:31:30 PM »
Diversity of opinion is a good thing!

Yes, when we are all saying the same thing, and patting ourselves on the back about how right we are, that is when I'd start to worry.  At that point, the best bet might be to take a contrarian view.  When everybody is "drinking the same Kool-aid", it can be a bad thing.

barsenault

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Re: 2 varieties of the Nanjing mint panda 2014 copper medal
« Reply #24 on: September 11, 2015, 12:53:04 PM »
Indeed.  Thanks much for the input Sandac and Birdman.  

Where I tend get a little worried, is when members think 'one man' can never be wrong...where the wisdom shared, is always faultless and error free...that's just as bad as group think.  I have felt at times there has been some back slapping, or group think, or folks rallying around a particular person (no particular person mentioned), because 'they've been around for years.'    

I do appreciate the spirited debates.  That's how folks learn, and make their own decisions on what is best for them. However, when a person is derided or looked down upon for disagreeing with a 'seasoned member' that's a problem.  

andrewlee10

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Re: 2 varieties of the Nanjing mint panda 2014 copper medal
« Reply #25 on: September 11, 2015, 01:07:35 PM »
Read the comments again because of one medal and cited the mints as low quality.

Diff opinions are subways good but must constructive and prove it rather than just justify by one product of a mints and saying it is poor quality mints. Does this justify the facts ?

I am not the person who commission this nanjing panda but as I know it sell well. Only left cooper and silver are not many in the market now.

Readers here also realise if someone get question many will come out and Bomber the thread. Why and how and what this imply......

You guy can continue but time will prove. This do no good and no bad.

Why no one Bomber the pagoda thread once it was 25k when someone make the hype. It is 2 to 4 k now. Anyone warn readers? Anythings with risk and return which nothing can be sure win.

I only puzzle the reason of citing banjing mints is worst mints among other official mints in China due to the only one medal they produced. Is this fair and justify ..... Reader eyes are clear. Time will proof. This my last sentence here. You guy ca. Happily continue and i decide express no opinion of this thread. Otherwise I will get bomber again and people will prolong guessing my intention and objective.

Offline Mirkkanen

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Re: 2 varieties of the Nanjing mint panda 2014 copper medal
« Reply #26 on: September 11, 2015, 01:23:51 PM »
IMO, there are a lot of PRO-medal threads on CCF right now and, while it is a breath of fresh air to have them, it is also very important to have both views on medals on public record. The medal lovers (who are mostly new to MCC collecting?) seem to get so bothered when non-medal lovers provide an alternate opinion.

As far as I can tell, poconopenn is simply using his experience (and personal bias) to warn prospective investors/collectors/buyers about the potential perils of "investing" in medals, especially those (inferiorly) produced by what he believes to be mints with poor quality control and minimal experience. You do not need to be offended by his statements. On the contrary, you should investigate them. If he is wrong, you have lost nothing and this will strengthen your resolve. If he is right, maybe he'll save you (and others) a whole lot of future pain.

Just my opinion.

barsenault

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Re: 2 varieties of the Nanjing mint panda 2014 copper medal
« Reply #27 on: September 11, 2015, 01:33:05 PM »
^^^^

 N31   N31   N31   :thumbup: :thumbup:

Offline Birdman

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Re: 2 varieties of the Nanjing mint panda 2014 copper medal
« Reply #28 on: September 11, 2015, 03:44:57 PM »
Why no one Bomber the pagoda thread once it was 25k when someone make the hype. It is 2 to 4 k now. Anyone warn readers?

A good question.

Just want to present the records and the truth. If my memory serve me correct, birdman and SANDC were not the moderator during the period from June 15, 2011 to Aug. 26, 2011. At that time, the only moderator was located in H.K. and ex-administrator had total control of this forum. This seller and ex-administrator were banned permanently from this Forum at the same time.

http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=3181.0 (June 15, 2011)

1989 3.3 oz silver God of War and Wealth clouded claw NCS NGC PF 69 UC
Ebay/PayPal price: $6200
check/money order price: $5650
cash price: $5150
NCS conserved. Population estimate less than 200. Rarely seen investment grade.

http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=3424.0 (July 8, 2011)

1989 3.3 oz silver God of War and Wealth clouded claw NCS NGC PF 69 UC
Ebay/PayPal price: $6200
check/money order price: $5650
cash price: $5150
Population estimate less than 200. Rarely seen investment grade.

http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=3452.0 (July 12, 2011)

1989 3.3 oz silver God of War and Wealth clouded claw NCS NGC PF 69 UC
Ebay/PayPal price: $6200
check/money order price: $5650
cash price: $5150
Population estimate less than 200. Rarely seen investment grade

http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=3725.0 (Aug. 15, 2011)

1984 20 g silver ancient pagoda temple 4 coin set NCS NGC PF 68 UC
Ebay/PayPal price: $14,000
check/money order price: $12,500
cash price: $10,000
Mintage 260, many melted.

1984 20 g silver ancient pagoda temple 4 coin set NCS NGC PF 69 UC
Ebay/PayPal price: $31,000
check/money order price: $28,500
cash price: $26,000
Mintage 260, many melted.

http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=3811.0 (Aug. 26, 2011)

1984 20 g silver ancient pagoda temple 4 coin set NCS NGC PF 68 UC
Ebay/PayPal price: $14,000
check/money order price: $12,500
cash price: $10,000
Mintage 260, many melted.

1984 20 g silver ancient pagoda temple 4 coin set NCS NGC PF 69 UC
Ebay/PayPal price: $31,000
check/money order price: $28,500
cash price: $26,000
Mintage 260, many melted.

Others please correct me if I have the historical facts wrong, but:

There was essentially one person controlling the forum during the pagoda hype.  As I understanding it, many who are active in their warnings now were abstaining from participating in the forum then, in protest to how things were run.  They didn't want to be associated with unsavory aspects.  Although their decision not to participate in the forum prevented their good name from giving an air of legitimacy to the forum, conversely, it essentially left the fox guarding the hen house.  When the ex-administrator was banned, however, then a number of quality, knowledgeable people returned to participate in the forum.  I think they have the mentality now of: "never again will we let such a thing happen to this forum"  Hence their current vigilance.

Offline pandamonium

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Re: 2 varieties of the Nanjing mint panda 2014 copper medal
« Reply #29 on: September 11, 2015, 04:22:25 PM »
Sadly there will not be another silver pagoda debate, due to controls put into place.    Demand was so low the dealers could not sell them so trades were accepted.   New information has come out on them so they should eventually rebound very well.   Opportunities like that, maybe once in a life time.   In a short time frame, bullion has to break to the upside and China's love of MCC can only increase as stocks, real estate, etc take a face plant.   Wish there was passion and anger for another early year MCC coin or medal so i can bottom fish.   Alas, those days are passed.........

Offline poconopenn

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Re: 2 varieties of the Nanjing mint panda 2014 copper medal
« Reply #30 on: September 11, 2015, 05:33:19 PM »
the first page of the sell thread of jibi in your link state the price and someone still buying now. However, it does not stated the agreed buying price.

 

I bought one set last night at the same price posted.

Offline poconopenn

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Re: 2 varieties of the Nanjing mint panda 2014 copper medal
« Reply #31 on: September 11, 2015, 05:42:49 PM »
First, this is ugly and bald panda design by Nanjing mints which I totally agree. However, this is selling so well even there are few type of material used for this ugly and bald design panda. Why those collectors buy it and pay for high premium???? All of them loss of mind and no brainer?


I have to give credit to sellers for their skillful and aggressive promotion with nice videos and pictures, simultaneously at three different forums. Even negative comments and the warming of “mintage trap” of recently minted medals from several members of this forum can not stop their efforts to gain the visibility of this medal.

Just for information and a friendly advice.

China Mint has produced about 3,100 MCC since 1979 and more than 1,000 medals since 2013, several times more than all medals produced in the prior years. Most medals produced are low mintage (less than 2,000) and commissioned by the third party. The “mintage trap” and quality of the medals ought to be considered before making investment decision in those medals, especially when those medals have an exceptional high numismatic premium. Unless you are an experienced, knowledgeable coin/medal collector, with as much or more knowledge than your numismatic dealer possesses, investing in "numismatics premium" is a high-risk proposition.



Offline poconopenn

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Re: 2 varieties of the Nanjing mint panda 2014 copper medal
« Reply #32 on: September 11, 2015, 05:55:43 PM »
Frank Wong and other collectors have done a lot research on white spot development on coins and medal. Storage is one of the small factor for the white spot development which is not the main factor.

You claim Nanjing mints has poor minting technology as compare to other. White spot of coins/medal can cause by minting technology and processes. Please post as many photo here to prove that Nanjing mints produce poorly design and white spot prompted products than three other official mints and internationally mints. Maple by Canada mints, proof britannia 2013 and 2014, all tend to white spot which due to the minting processes as my view.

Panda expo 1, macao panda expo 1, long corridor of classical garden and recent years of silver bullion panda coin which produce by Shanghai mints which you claim more superior than Nanjing mints for minting technology are all famous of white spot. Why you are not mentioned it on and on and on?


Please read the white spots article published by China Mint in the following thread and my summary of the article (Reply # 11). All silver coins will form white spots. The timing is depending on the storage condition as well as the roughness of the mirror surface. IMO, Nanjing Mint still use the old method, leather belt, to polish the blank, instead of chemical treatment currently used by all major mints, consequently, a less rough mirror surface and slower in developing white spots.

http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=7823.0

barsenault

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Re: 2 varieties of the Nanjing mint panda 2014 copper medal
« Reply #33 on: September 11, 2015, 06:09:44 PM »
I have to give credit to sellers for their skillful and aggressive promotion with nice videos and pictures, simultaneously at three different forums. Even negative comments and the warming of “mintage trap” of recently minted medals from several members of this forum can not stop their efforts to gain the visibility of this medal.

Just for information and a friendly advice.

China Mint has produced about 3,100 MCC since 1979 and more than 1,000 medals since 2013, several times more than all medals produced in the prior years. Most medals produced are low mintage (less than 2,000) and commissioned by the third party. The “mintage trap” and quality of the medals ought to be considered before making investment decision in those medals, especially when those medals have an exceptional high numismatic premium. Unless you are an experienced, knowledgeable coin/medal collector, with as much or more knowledge than your numismatic dealer possesses, investing in "numismatics premium" is a high-risk proposition.



I think you are giving the sellers too much credit and not enough credit to the brain power, decision making capability, and thinking prowess of those who actually bought.  Ouch.  :scared:

Offline Birdman

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Re: 2 varieties of the Nanjing mint panda 2014 copper medal
« Reply #34 on: September 11, 2015, 08:57:53 PM »
I have to give credit to sellers for their skillful and aggressive promotion with nice videos and pictures, simultaneously at three different forums. Even negative comments and the warming of “mintage trap” of recently minted medals from several members of this forum can not stop their efforts to gain the visibility of this medal.

Just for information and a friendly advice.

China Mint has produced about 3,100 MCC since 1979 and more than 1,000 medals since 2013, several times more than all medals produced in the prior years. Most medals produced are low mintage (less than 2,000) and commissioned by the third party. The “mintage trap” and quality of the medals ought to be considered before making investment decision in those medals, especially when those medals have an exceptional high numismatic premium. Unless you are an experienced, knowledgeable coin/medal collector, with as much or more knowledge than your numismatic dealer possesses, investing in "numismatics premium" is a high-risk proposition.





China Mint has produced about 3,100 MCC since 1979 and more than 1,000 medals since 2013, several times more than all medals produced in the prior years. Most medals produced are low mintage (less than 2,000) and commissioned by the third party.

Wow, I didn't realize the mints have been so busy, recently.  And if these medals have sold as well as reported, despite the high numismatic premium, it will surely inspire the minting of new medals, soon to be marketed.  Will the new money go to the next wave of private issues, or to drive up the numismatic premium of the current issues even more?  I'm not smart enough to play that trade, but I'm a more conservative, traditional investor, so I'll leave the the adrenaline chess match to others.



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Re: 2 varieties of the Nanjing mint panda 2014 copper medal
« Reply #35 on: September 11, 2015, 09:17:20 PM »
IMO, there are a lot of PRO-medal threads on CCF right now and, while it is a breath of fresh air to have them, it is also very important to have both views on medals on public record. The medal lovers (who are mostly new to MCC collecting?) seem to get so bothered when non-medal lovers provide an alternate opinion.

As far as I can tell, poconopenn is simply using his experience (and personal bias) to warn prospective investors/collectors/buyers about the potential perils of "investing" in medals, especially those (inferiorly) produced by what he believes to be mints with poor quality control and minimal experience. You do not need to be offended by his statements. On the contrary, you should investigate them. If he is wrong, you have lost nothing and this will strengthen your resolve. If he is right, maybe he'll save you (and others) a whole lot of future pain.

Just my opinion.

Yes totally agree. This is constructive opinion rather than no evident and basis to claim one of the reputable mints as shit like someone. Any motive behind ???? Very puzzke

andrewlee10

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Re: 2 varieties of the Nanjing mint panda 2014 copper medal
« Reply #36 on: September 11, 2015, 09:20:50 PM »
Wow, I didn't realize the mints have been so busy, recently.  And if these medals have sold as well as reported, despite the high numismatic premium, it will surely inspire the minting of new medals, soon to be marketed.  Will the new money go to the next wave of private issues, or to drive up the numismatic premium of the current issues even more?  I'm not smart enough to play that trade, but I'm a more conservative, traditional investor, so I'll leave the the adrenaline chess match to others.




I break my small word. I hope this is my last sentence at this thread and end it.

Private investors are profit oriented which I assume. Why so many out with lower mintage as compare to fist coin mcc? This implied selling well and demand are there but someone can get it right.

Time will tell. This is the time from 79 to now told u demand of medal up. Why because many people use here to dumb. Definitely not......

Why not state and warn in pagoda and all other thread of China medal in the forum? Now the members who do not like medal Only do it for nanjing mints and nanjing panda  ?


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Re: 2 varieties of the Nanjing mint panda 2014 copper medal
« Reply #37 on: September 11, 2015, 09:41:11 PM »
It sure does appear that Chinese medals have set the world on fire.  The one below is inspired by the amazing craftsmanship of the Chinese.  Kudos to the forerunners of producing fine works of art - the Chinese mints - Private Investors. So much so, that we have other mints around the world following suit. Granted it is a coin, but an offshoot of the Chinese high relief medals.

"An initial glance over the images has you wondering how that depth is even possible, approaching that of some of the many amazing medallions issued in China by the Shanghai Mint which are actually cast, not struck."

http://agaunews.com/world-exclusive-look-max-relief-odin-coin-launches-choice-mint-legends-asgard-series/







Offline dynamike51

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Re: 2 varieties of the Nanjing mint panda 2014 copper medal
« Reply #38 on: September 11, 2015, 11:33:02 PM »
A straightforward question to barsenault and andrewlee (in the spirit of full disclosure):

By appearance, you two seem to be very enthusiastic with medals, and your recent volume on CCF in this regard is self-evident. My question is: do you personally have any financial gain from promoting the medals ?

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Re: 2 varieties of the Nanjing mint panda 2014 copper medal
« Reply #39 on: September 11, 2015, 11:43:48 PM »
Hey dynamike.  Great question.  We have been abundantly clear on this forum, that we are first and foremost collectors.  And yes, as of late, Andy and I have started a website called Chinesemedals.com.  We've had the disclaimer on the bottom of our pages for months.  Yes, some of the medals we mention are on the site, but others are not (i.e. Odin).  We share a passion for Chinese medals and coins. I'm not sure what you mean by recent volume.  I've been posting pictures and videos of medals and coins, long before we started our website a month or so ago. We've only increased our volume in this thread, to answer some concerns about a particular mint or medal.

Offline dynamike51

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Re: 2 varieties of the Nanjing mint panda 2014 copper medal
« Reply #40 on: September 11, 2015, 11:48:43 PM »
IMO, there are a lot of PRO-medal threads on CCF right now and, while it is a breath of fresh air to have them, it is also very important to have both views on medals on public record. The medal lovers (who are mostly new to MCC collecting?) seem to get so bothered when non-medal lovers provide an alternate opinion.

As far as I can tell, poconopenn is simply using his experience (and personal bias) to warn prospective investors/collectors/buyers about the potential perils of "investing" in medals, especially those (inferiorly) produced by what he believes to be mints with poor quality control and minimal experience. You do not need to be offended by his statements. On the contrary, you should investigate them. If he is wrong, you have lost nothing and this will strengthen your resolve. If he is right, maybe he'll save you (and others) a whole lot of future pain.

Just my opinion.

Ditto. +1

Offline Hippanda

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Re: 2 varieties of the Nanjing mint panda 2014 copper medal
« Reply #41 on: September 12, 2015, 01:29:53 AM »
Hey dynamike.  Great question.  We have been abundantly clear on this forum, that we are first and foremost collectors.  And yes, as of late, Andy and I have started a website called Chinesemedals.com.  We've had the disclaimer on the bottom of our pages for months.  Yes, some of the medals we mention are on the site, but others are not (i.e. Odin).  We share a passion for Chinese medals and coins. I'm not sure what you mean by recent volume.  I've been posting pictures and videos of medals and coins, long before we started our website a month or so ago. We've only increased our volume in this thread, to answer some concerns about a particular mint or medal.

This is getting past comical Barsenault- You are doing it all wrong.  Don't try to further your wealth, in small cheap increments I should add,  by dissing a well-respected expert in the field Poconopenn who has been contributing here for way longer than you have been trying to make a poor man's nickel trying to pump cheaply made schlock. Your post elsewhere on a website of questionable character insulting and denegrating a valuable member of the Chinese Coin Collectors community here is very low, to call them out as "pomp and ego" is a low class move of you. Worse than stetching honesty past its breaking point, pushing these cheap medals for cheap gains stands out obviously as unseemly. Surely you can make the few bucks involved a bit more honestly, and honorably than this ?

These cheap, poorly made pieces of metal, and all the supposed wonderful high relief "masterpieces" you are pushing, are nothing more, really, than cheap Mexican velvet paintings.
Your high pressure sales tactics veiled as sincere excitement are a farce. These bear no relationship to quality coins and medals and have contrived rarity, and the pump to inflate their prices for gain of the distributors (you) should be embarrasing. Caveat emptor to newbies.

Mildly entertaining, but transparent.

You have a lot to learn, in life it seems.


Do I need to state "In my opinion" ? in order to protect my post?


Cheap schlock velvet paintings see bottom of ad : "Quality you can feel"  . Says it all.

Flame away on the site where dishonest pumpers are proven to be. But remember the old adage "He who sleeps with dogs, wakes up with fleas"

"He who speaks without modesty will find it difficult to make his words good."

Confucius

Offline comeaux

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Re: 2 varieties of the Nanjing mint panda 2014 copper medal
« Reply #42 on: September 13, 2015, 11:57:34 AM »
This is getting past comical Barsenault- You are doing it all wrong.  Don't try to further your wealth, in small cheap increments I should add,  by dissing a well-respected expert in the field Poconopenn who has been contributing here for way longer than you have been trying to make a poor man's nickel trying to pump cheaply made schlock. Your post elsewhere on a website of questionable character insulting and denegrating a valuable member of the Chinese Coin Collectors community here is very low, to call them out as "pomp and ego" is a low class move of you. Worse than stetching honesty past its breaking point, pushing these cheap medals for cheap gains stands out obviously as unseemly. Surely you can make the few bucks involved a bit more honestly, and honorably than this ?

These cheap, poorly made pieces of metal, and all the supposed wonderful high relief "masterpieces" you are pushing, are nothing more, really, than cheap Mexican velvet paintings.
Your high pressure sales tactics veiled as sincere excitement are a farce. These bear no relationship to quality coins and medals and have contrived rarity, and the pump to inflate their prices for gain of the distributors (you) should be embarrasing. Caveat emptor to newbies.

Mildly entertaining, but transparent.

You have a lot to learn, in life it seems.


Do I need to state "In my opinion" ? in order to protect my post?


Cheap schlock velvet paintings see bottom of ad : "Quality you can feel"  . Says it all.

Flame away on the site where dishonest pumpers are proven to be. But remember the old adage "He who sleeps with dogs, wakes up with fleas"



Bravo !  :thumbup:

I agree that the cheap shots at poconopenn are uncalled for and classless, he has done way too much for collectors and this forum.

Offline trozau

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Re: 2 varieties of the Nanjing mint panda 2014 copper medal
« Reply #43 on: September 13, 2015, 12:49:52 PM »
Hmmm... Looks like I missed all the drama.
trozau (troy ounce gold)
honi soit qui mal y pense

gold - the barbarous relic!

Offline fwang2450

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Re: 2 varieties of the Nanjing mint panda 2014 copper medal
« Reply #44 on: September 13, 2015, 05:05:39 PM »
Hmmm... Looks like I missed all the drama.
Me too!

As someone who started on many medal topics, the Classical Garden series included, I would like anyone who intends to "invest" in recent medals to be extremely careful. I wrote in my blog that in terms of investment return, the top EARLY medals did not lose out to the top early silver coins. But with the massive number of privately commissioned new medals, there is no way to tell which will be the top ones. Artificially induced low mintage/rarity does not guarantee the medal to come out on top in the long run. In fact rarity does not count with recent issues because of the very obvious manipulation on the part of the sponsors. (This view goes against the hyping on some other site.) With new issues, profit comes from short term speculation, as some dealers/distributors are doing right now. If someone seeks long term investment gains with medals, go for the top early ones, from the 80's. Otherwise just enjoy the beauty of some of the recent issues (not the bald pandas though), forgetting about the price gain.

Offline KeepOnTrying!

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Re: 2 varieties of the Nanjing mint panda 2014 copper medal
« Reply #45 on: September 13, 2015, 10:45:28 PM »
Barsenault has decided to stop posting on CCF. From historical precedent this may be temporary and we could see him return and resume posting. Or it may be permanent. Dialogue is dialogue; a discussion amongst people with opposing views on a subject. If there is appropriate give and take there is always a chance at a consensus being arrived at eventually. But that is as long as the rules of healthy discuss are adhered to.

Points that were made by all parties to the discussion were all instructive in various ways either positive or negative. I don't know which records will remain on the CCF archives given requests for deletion of certain items. Only time will tell and readers will have the opportunity to decide based on the facts as hopefully documented in the archives.

This has been a long running discussion on how to navigate safely what has turned out to be figuratively, shark infested waters on which both golden age and yuppie MCCM are floating. Principles that pertain to the golden age MCC may not be directly translatable to the new age MCCM. With cordial discussions we can figure out where the quicksand is and protect ourselves from losing our hard earned money chasing after rigged/speculative coin investments in which the winner is who bails out just before the bubble bursts!

Barsenault brought a spark of cheer to this forum!
KeepOnTrying and Never Give Up!
That lion is also after you!

Offline KeepOnTrying!

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Re: 2 varieties of the Nanjing mint panda 2014 copper medal
« Reply #46 on: September 13, 2015, 10:47:50 PM »
Respect!
There are no two ways about it. Civility is essential in especially large group discussions as we have here. Without it chaos reigns supreme and our thoughts become even more muddled. I am someone who believes that not just all deserve to be respected but the highly accomplished amongst us deserve even more of it.

I have unfortunately responded hot under the collar to posts by two respected members of this community. I subsequently apologized to both publicly and privately. The apologies were not out of fear but as a result of a realization that I could have done a better job explaining myself in a more acceptable manner. In such misguided situations it did not matter if I was right or wrong.

There are several forum members who share their knowledge and expertise generously with other members and visitors to the site. Some even stick out their neck, so to speak, even when they run the risk of ridicule for opining on "sensitive" subjects. They make out time from what may be an already busy schedule to provide information that may not make more money for them but could help others make more informed decisions regarding what to buy or not. They also provide helpful advice on coin identification and a myriad of issues.

We don't have to agree and accept all they say BUT they deserve to be respected!
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Offline KeepOnTrying!

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Re: 2 varieties of the Nanjing mint panda 2014 copper medal
« Reply #47 on: September 13, 2015, 11:22:24 PM »
Me too!

As someone who started on many medal topics, the Classical Garden series included, I would like anyone who intends to "invest" in recent medals to be extremely careful. I wrote in my blog that in terms of investment return, the top EARLY medals did not lose out to the top early silver coins. But with the massive number of privately commissioned new medals, there is no way to tell which will be the top ones. Artificially induced low mintage/rarity does not guarantee the medal to come out on top in the long run. In fact rarity does not count with recent issues because of the very obvious manipulation on the part of the sponsors. (This view goes against the hyping on some other site.) With new issues, profit comes from short term speculation, as some dealers/distributors are doing right now. If someone seeks long term investment gains with medals, go for the top early ones, from the 80's. Otherwise just enjoy the beauty of some of the recent issues (not the bald pandas though), forgetting about the price gain.

The 800Ib gorilla in the room has to be acknowledged! CCF came through a bad patch years ago and every well meaning forum member is loathe to have a repeat performance or offshoots of, happen here again.

I wasn't here then but I have picked up enough information to get a gist of what happened. I don't have to cast the stone of blame at anyone because there may be other parties involved who are as yet unidentified or may never be identified. It appears that some even had multiple identities!

But, looking across the street it is difficult not arriving at similar conclusions, drawing contemporary evidence from what is playing out in front of us in real time. The cacophony around a narrow spectrum of coins and medals and uncritical acceptance and trumpeting of "virtues" of these items has an uncanny semblance to activities of old.

This does not mean that we should not talk about the new low mintage medals that are being released several times a year. This is a conversation we need to have and on a continued basis. This cannot be misconstrued as an ongoing battle between the golden age coin collectors and investors and the new-age yuppies. This should not happen at CCF. This is the only way in which we can accurately characterize these numismatic products so that both members and guests to the forum can have a more balanced view and make more informed decisions on what to buy and why.
KeepOnTrying and Never Give Up!
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Offline dynamike51

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Re: 2 varieties of the Nanjing mint panda 2014 copper medal
« Reply #48 on: September 13, 2015, 11:43:10 PM »
KOT!

Saying less is more, sometimes. (chew on that for a second)

Quality instead of quantity. Some of the things other members said (criticized) about you might have been missed by you. Are you here just to opine? If so, remember opinion is just like you-know-what, everybody has one. Try not to expose it too much to limit the stench - unless you have the uncontrollable urge to editorialize every topic and conversation, in addition to the ones you started. In case you haven't noticed, there's no vacant "editor" position open on CCF. So, if that's what you're auditioning, keep on trying here is just a waste of time. So far, (as far as I can see) you posts are just a bunch of "writing" without substance. That said, the sheer volume of your posts will earn you a "hero member" in no time. Congrats !!

Offline fwang2450

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Re: 2 varieties of the Nanjing mint panda 2014 copper medal
« Reply #49 on: September 14, 2015, 12:13:35 AM »
This does not mean that we should not talk about the new low mintage medals that are being released several times a year. This is a conversation we need to have and on a continued basis. This cannot be misconstrued as an ongoing battle between the golden age coin collectors and investors and the new-age yuppies. This should not happen at CCF. This is the only way in which we can accurately characterize these numismatic products so that both members and guests to the forum can have a more balanced view and make more informed decisions on what to buy and why.
I believe the answer is already in my post. We can talk about the good and bad sides of newly released medals, including their low mintage. But if you want to invest, pick the early ones or coins. Those are better bets, unless you have access to the inventory at release prices and can make quick money on them through speculation. Their long-term investment potential is unknown at the moment.

Offline KeepOnTrying!

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Re: 2 varieties of the Nanjing mint panda 2014 copper medal
« Reply #50 on: September 14, 2015, 12:49:24 AM »
I believe the answer is already in my post. We can talk about the good and bad sides of newly released medals, including their low mintage. But if you want to invest, pick the early ones or coins. Those are better bets, unless you have access to the inventory at release prices and can make quick money on them through speculation. Their long-term investment potential is unknown at the moment.

This is exactly what I do whenever I can; I buy early year coins and medals and have been lucky to pick up choice pieces from time to time. But I have also bought post-2010 coins and medals. I have bought the latter coins for their bullion value and at times just for collection. The medals have been mainly for my collection but I keep an eye on possible appreciation potential.

I often add beneficiary considerations (as you are aware of) when purchasing some of the new age coins and medals. I hope this will stimulate their interest in collecting more MCCMs when these pass on to them in future. I do not favor or buy into the rapid-valuation-appreciation school of thought. I have also in previous posts decried the rapid escalation of pricing on many of the new releases, because it is not sustainable.

I have also NEVER sold any coin or medal in my possession. Most of my life's investments have been made outside coins and medals. I just discovered and like collecting MCCMs, with discretionary income!
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