Author Topic: China Coin and/or Banknote Exchanges  (Read 27748 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline canadian

  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 132
  • Karma: 6
Re: China Coin and/or Banknote Exchanges
« Reply #30 on: June 20, 2015, 11:00:08 PM »
Thankyou  poconopenn

Offline ninteno

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 28
  • Karma: 3
Re: China Coin and/or Banknote Exchanges
« Reply #31 on: July 08, 2015, 04:11:12 AM »
Please, please a update how the market is doing while the stock exchange is crashing.

I have seen once a chart you posted in another theat. is it possible to give us a link ti this chart

Thanks a lot

Offline poconopenn

  • Supporter
  • Trade Count: (+7)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2658
  • Karma: 226
Re: China Coin and/or Banknote Exchanges
« Reply #32 on: July 08, 2015, 01:00:52 PM »
Here is the link to the chart of total index for Nanjing Exchange. The total index had been down more than 50% since it reached peak in later May 2015.

http://bbs.jibi.net/dispbbs.asp?boardid=250&ID=271502&replyID=271502

Offline poconopenn

  • Supporter
  • Trade Count: (+7)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2658
  • Karma: 226
Re: China Coin and/or Banknote Exchanges
« Reply #33 on: August 09, 2015, 03:15:10 PM »
Update for total index of Nanjing Exchange as 8/8/2015.

Just for information.

The attached table covers all coins listed at Nanjing Exchange. Gold coins are in red, silver coins in black and circulated coins in blue.

Offline ninteno

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 28
  • Karma: 3
Re: China Coin and/or Banknote Exchanges
« Reply #34 on: August 09, 2015, 04:30:03 PM »
thanks for sharing

Offline pandamonium

  • Supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2140
  • Karma: 32
Re: China Coin and/or Banknote Exchanges
« Reply #35 on: August 09, 2015, 04:56:48 PM »
What a list.  Mintage numbers and coins held by Nanjinag Exchange which is one of 20.   That is a huge number of MCC held.   What is the list of MCC held by the other 19 Exchanges?   Will there be any supply left?......

Offline KeepOnTrying!

  • Supporter
  • Trade Count: (+23)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1751
  • Karma: 54
  • Gender: Male
Re: China Coin and/or Banknote Exchanges
« Reply #36 on: August 09, 2015, 05:50:07 PM »
Poconopenn & Everyone, What is the practical implication of this control or sequestration of a significant proportion of MCC in these Exchanges? Your chart shows for example that 33.61% of the 2010 1oz Silver Panda coin mintage is held by the Nanjing Exchange. Won't this be similar to a situation in which instead of 800,000 minted coins we effectively have access to less than 540,000 coins? Can the exchange dump back the coins into circulation all of a sudden? Can they buy up more of the 2010 coins? Thanks for additional insight.
KeepOnTrying and Never Give Up!
That lion is also after you!

Offline PandaCollector

  • Supporter
  • Trade Count: (+5)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2529
  • Karma: 82
  • Gender: Male
    • Pandacollector.com
Re: China Coin and/or Banknote Exchanges
« Reply #37 on: August 09, 2015, 09:24:27 PM »
Poconopenn & Everyone, What is the practical implication of this control or sequestration of a significant proportion of MCC in these Exchanges? Your chart shows for example that 33.61% of the 2010 1oz Silver Panda coin mintage is held by the Nanjing Exchange. Won't this be similar to a situation in which instead of 800,000 minted coins we effectively have access to less than 540,000 coins? Can the exchange dump back the coins into circulation all of a sudden? Can they buy up more of the 2010 coins? Thanks for additional insight.

As far as I can tell it is very unlikely that the exchange coin funds will be to "dumped" back into the market. They are not structured for that.

Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
China Pricepedia
www.pandacollector.com

Offline poconopenn

  • Supporter
  • Trade Count: (+7)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2658
  • Karma: 226
Re: China Coin and/or Banknote Exchanges
« Reply #38 on: August 09, 2015, 11:18:02 PM »
One of the advantage of being a member of the fund is to be able to deposit the coins to the bank associated to the fund. This will avoid the safe-keeping problem for dealers and investors who may hold very large quantity of coins in their store and home.  The member still has the control of the coins deposited at fund. The fund actually provide the channel for members to sell and buy large quantity of coins in a very short period of time. In other words, the fund can improve the liquidity of the coin market.

The data clearly do not suggest that the coin with a higher percentage mintage controlled by the fund can have a higher rate of price appreciation in the market place. For example, 2010 1 oz. silver panda had the highest % mintage controlled by Exchange and the IPO price was RMB360, but last week market price for this coin in Shanghai market was about RMB450, just a 25% increase in price during last five months, the lowest price appreciation of all coins listed at Nanjing Exchange.
 
There is no correlation between % mintage controlled by the Exchange and price appreciation of the said exchange fund either. This is still a very early stage of experience and time is needed to determine if the Exchange will help or hurt the coin market. Up to now, all coins listed at Nanjing Exchange show price increase at market place since their IPO, but the increase is significantly lower than the gain at Exchange.    

Offline KeepOnTrying!

  • Supporter
  • Trade Count: (+23)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1751
  • Karma: 54
  • Gender: Male
Re: China Coin and/or Banknote Exchanges
« Reply #39 on: August 09, 2015, 11:49:31 PM »
Thanks for the response and additional insight.
KeepOnTrying and Never Give Up!
That lion is also after you!

Offline KeyDate1/2ozPandas

  • Supporter
  • Trade Count: (+15)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 901
  • Karma: 202
  • Gender: Male
    • China Mint Coins, LLC
Re: China Coin and/or Banknote Exchanges
« Reply #40 on: August 10, 2015, 12:00:06 AM »
I personally believe the exchanges help the coin market, because it provides liquidity to dealers for their common coins, which allows them to own more semi-rare and rare coins.  It is similar to when the price of bullion goes up, it allows dealers to offload their bullion coins, which puts money in their pocket to buy semi-rare and rare coins, all boats rise when bullion rises, even high end numismatics.  

While the exchanges are boon for dealers, the traders that play on the exchanges are surely going to get hurt if they are paying more than 15-30% premium relative to the market price for a coin.  For the physical coin market, typical spread between the bid and ask is 10-30%, so it seems reasonable to pay 15-30% premium to own an exchange traded product that reduces bid/ask spread to less than 1%.  The good news is most of the suckers that are paying 100%-1000% premium to market are dumb money and they would never get involved in physical coin market so when they go broke, it won't impact the physical coin market.  

As for the coins coming back to the market, it can happen if the exchange price gets below the market price for an extended period of time.  How it works legally, I don't have the details, but every structured finance product has an exit clause under certain conditions.

Offline ninteno

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 28
  • Karma: 3
Re: China Coin and/or Banknote Exchanges
« Reply #41 on: August 10, 2015, 01:43:02 AM »
a lot of good informations, thanks.
if i own the etf fund am i able to withdraw coins?
if i am member and depost coins, i have stll control of my coins to withdraw them?
did i get paid the the etf price if i deposit coins and have to pay the etf price if i withdraw them again ?

Offline PandaCollector

  • Supporter
  • Trade Count: (+5)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2529
  • Karma: 82
  • Gender: Male
    • Pandacollector.com
Re: China Coin and/or Banknote Exchanges
« Reply #42 on: August 10, 2015, 02:50:48 AM »

if i own the etf fund am i able to withdraw coins?
if i am member and depost coins, i have stll control of my coins to withdraw them?

This is not an ETF. An individual cannot withdraw coins. The investor does not have control over the fund assets (coins). The shares can be traded.

Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
China Pricepedia
www.pandacollector.com

Offline poconopenn

  • Supporter
  • Trade Count: (+7)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2658
  • Karma: 226
Re: China Coin and/or Banknote Exchanges
« Reply #43 on: August 10, 2015, 02:21:05 PM »
In US, ETF (Exchange Traded Funds) for stock fund is cash settlement and Commodity Future can be cash settlement or excise to possess the said commodity. The Chinese ETFs listed at Stamp, Phone card, Coin and Banknote Exchanges are traded very similar to most commodity futures in US, can be cash settlement or excise the right anytime to take the possession of  the said item. (Currency future and stock index are always cash settlement in US, so are the Index funds at Chinese Exchange.)
 
At this moment, the price of majority ETF at Nanjing Exchange is significantly higher than the market value on the street. Nobody will excise to buy the listed item from Exchange. The traders will take the profit using cash settlement. During the down market in June this year (about 50% dropped of Exchange Total Index), the price of one banknote fund, one phone card fund and two stamp funds actually lower than the market value, some traders did excise the right to take the possession of the item, instead of cash settlement. The Exchange did suspend the trading of those funds for 3-5 days and changed the limited down from 10% to 5% for those funds.
 
The Exchange can delist or re-stocking the fund if the total capital of the fund is dropped below the minimum capital requirement (20MM RNB). Currently, no fund at Nanjing Exchange has total capital less than 8x of the minimum requirement.

Offline PandaCollector

  • Supporter
  • Trade Count: (+5)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2529
  • Karma: 82
  • Gender: Male
    • Pandacollector.com
Re: China Coin and/or Banknote Exchanges
« Reply #44 on: August 10, 2015, 06:47:43 PM »
In US, ETF (Exchange Traded Funds) for stock fund is cash settlement and Commodity Future can be cash settlement or excise to possess the said commodity. The Chinese ETFs listed at Stamp, Phone card, Coin and Banknote Exchanges are traded very similar to most commodity futures in US, can be cash settlement or excise the right anytime to take the possession of  the said item. (Currency future and stock index are always cash settlement in US, so are the Index funds at Chinese Exchange.)
 
At this moment, the price of majority ETF at Nanjing Exchange is significantly higher than the market value on the street. Nobody will excise to buy the listed item from Exchange. The traders will take the profit using cash settlement. During the down market in June this year (about 50% dropped of Exchange Total Index), the price of one banknote fund, one phone card fund and two stamp funds actually lower than the market value, some traders did excise the right to take the possession of the item, instead of cash settlement. The Exchange did suspend the trading of those funds for 3-5 days and changed the limited down from 10% to 5% for those funds.
 
The Exchange can delist or re-stocking the fund if the total capital of the fund is dropped below the minimum capital requirement (20MM RNB). Currently, no fund at Nanjing Exchange has total capital less than 8x of the minimum requirement.


Poconopenn,

Can you tell us more about the circumstances in which the banknote was withdrawn from a fund? I have been told several times that when banknotes are submitted to a fund in bundles, as required, the bundles are then broken apart and the notes examined for quality control purposes. So if a person withdraws banknotes later they will not receive bundles, which is the way that most recent banknotes are traded. It's also a pretty raw deal for the submitter if his notes are rejected by qc because he will get his notes back in a form that is hard to sell, or must be sold at a discount. There is a similar issue with coins. This is one of the disincentives to breaking apart a fund.

Thanks very much!

Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
China Pricepedia
www.pandacollector.com