Author Topic: G100Y 1986 Ghost Date is a matter of degrees  (Read 6340 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline eric

  • Supporter
  • Trade Count: (+5)
  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 163
  • Karma: 7
G100Y 1986 Ghost Date is a matter of degrees
« on: January 12, 2015, 11:06:23 PM »
Ever since PCGS recognized the G100Y 1986 Ghost Date variety, as mentioned in Peter's 2nd edition book, I've been trying to track one down. Although I've not found one of the handful that PCGS has actually labeled, I've seen several that look like the ghost date... but the problem is that I've also seen many that look KIND of like the ghost date.

According to Peter's book, the ghost date was caused by a late die state (therefore not a true die variety by my interpretation). As I see it, if the lack of frosting on the date and denomination was caused by worn down die, then there are also countless "tweeners" (intermediate die states) in between a clean struck coin from the early die, and the ghost date of the late die. So then my question is... when does a ghost date become a ghost date?

I've seen some 1986 G100Y with "slight frosting" on the date and denomination. I've seen others with absolutely NO frosting on the denomination, but frosting on the date. What do you call that?

Therein lies what I think is a problem with the variety, as it's currently being attributed by PCGS.

Here is PCGS population page for the coin:
http://www.pcgs.com/pop/valueview.aspx?s=523672
In the example they give, it appears there is no frosting on either the date or denomination. A true ghost date.

Now here is one of the 6 coins they've graded MS69:
http://www.pcgs.com/Cert/26233342/
It appears the denomination is ghosted, with minimal if any frosting. But the date does NOT appear to be ghosted. The date seems to be at least somewhat frosted.

Here are some NGC coins I'm looking at:
http://www.ngccoin.com/certlookup/index.aspx?CertNumber=3688952-001
This one the denomination is clearly ghosted, and it looks like the date "might" be ghosted. Again what I might call a tweener, but the denomination is so clearly ghosted with no frosting, maybe PCGS would consider it a ghost date?

For comparison here is one with typical frosted denomination:
http://www.ngccoin.com/certlookup/index.aspx?CertNumber=3451474-001

Here is another one with mixed sides...
http://www.ngccoin.com/certlookup/index.aspx?CertNumber=3910998-020
The denomination has zero frosting, to the point that you can see mirror within the outlines of the 100Y. But the date itself does not appear to be ghosted.

Here is an MS68 being sold by Liberty Coin that looks very ghosted to me:
http://www.libertycoin.com/product-p/cgp-480.htm

Now to throw another monkey wrench into the works, they're also selling a G50Y that seems to have the same look:
http://www.libertycoin.com/product-p/cgp-470.htm

Here's another G50Y that looks like it might be ghosted:
http://www.ngccoin.com/certlookup/index.aspx?CertNumber=3590914-002

I would like to know, what do you think of these variations?

1) Would you call the tweeners ghost date or not? (ie. when does a ghost date become a ghost date)

2) Do you think there is significance to the totally ghosted denominations without the ghost date? (IMO it is a clearly visible intermediate die state, so it's just as valid of a variance as the ghosted date, though perhaps not as rare as coins with both sides ghosted)

3) Does the ghost date exist for the 1986 G50Y and/or other denominations?
 

Offline SANDAC

  • Supporter
  • Global Moderator
  • Trade Count: (+8)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2264
  • Karma: 118
Re: G100Y 1986 Ghost Date is a matter of degrees
« Reply #1 on: January 14, 2015, 09:05:20 AM »
eric,

Great topic and research.  I was hoping others may chime in with their point of views about this emerging trend.

My own view is that varieties should be distinct and separable for the sake of average collectors.  Splitting hair on a gradual shade of variations is difficult for the collectors as well as the graders.  I don't know PCGS's fee structure with regard to varieties, but I know as recent as 6 months ago when I was submitting coins with potential varieties that NGC does not charge extra fee for varieties of MCC.  So splitting hair on these subtle varieties are just extra works (and extra complaints) for NGC graders without a direct monetary benefit.  NGC may rethink their variety fee structure if they keep coming up with these subtle/confusing varieties. 

Ghost (i.e., no frosting on text, only the text outline) date and denomination of various shades are common occurrence much like the frosting or lack of on other devices, so the combination/permutation of ghosting on date/denomination/legend/design seems endless.  Panda certainly have the most collector base and should lead the way in variety trends, but catching ghost seems an elusive endeavor.

Offline eric

  • Supporter
  • Trade Count: (+5)
  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 163
  • Karma: 7
Re: G100Y 1986 Ghost Date is a matter of degrees
« Reply #2 on: January 14, 2015, 01:35:16 PM »
Thanks for your input sandac!

PCGS does not charge for variety attribution on pandas. In theory, they automatically assign the variety such as small date, large date, etc... similar to how NGC does it.

They do charge $18 for variety attribution of certain varieties listed here, such as VAM's on Morgan and Peace dollars:
http://www.pcgs.com/varietyfaq.html

I have mixed feelings about the attribution of ghost date. On the one hand, I like that they are apparently taking some collector's suggestion seriously, and including a die state variety which is mentioned in the best-known publication on panda coins. On the other hand, I agree with you that such die state varieties are endless, thus difficult for graders and collectors alike.

As much as I love collecting the different varieties, I don't think the variety was warranted in this particular case. PCGS is treating it as a true die variety, thus adding it to their Registry Set of G100Y Circulation Strikes with Varieties. No one is likely to complain, as only me and one other collector have sets listed, LOL:
http://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/composite.aspx?c=5061

But in principle, this is inconsistent treatment of the variety compared to the way PCGS handles such varieties for other coins. For example, the Morgan Dollar Circulation Strikes with Varieties set does NOT include any VAM's (which are mainly subtle die state varieties). Instead, they have special registry sets for those who wish to collect VAM's.

To be truly consistent, PCGS would need to add a "Peter Anthony Varieties" to their varieties list, and then charge $18 for attribution of such die state varieties. And they would need to not include those die state varieties in the main registry sets, but instead add new "specialty" sets. Of course the problem with that is it's not popular enough to do so. There are over 500 collections of Morgan Dollars listed, and only a few G100Y panda collections.

Likewise the "VAM" book lists 3000 varieties of Morgan and Peace Dollars, whereas Peter's book lists only a handful of such pseudo-varieties (like the 1986 Ghost Date and 1993 Rough Date). So it would not make a lot of business sense for the grading companies to get into those. Instead it makes more sense to stick with the true die varieties, and let the collectors make their own differentiations on the die-state varieties.

Of course none of this is to fault Peter's book at all! To the contrary, I think he should keep adding as many die state varieties as possible that are discovered, as it is interesting and "significant" to serious collectors. But the grading companies should be consistent in what they consider a variety. If it's a true die variety, it should be attributed. That's why I was surprised recently when NGC removed the 2002 G500Y Near Au vs Far Au, as it's a true variety (http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=11018.0).

Offline PandaCollector

  • Supporter
  • Trade Count: (+5)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2532
  • Karma: 83
  • Gender: Male
    • Pandacollector.com
Re: G100Y 1986 Ghost Date is a matter of degrees
« Reply #3 on: January 15, 2015, 05:33:23 AM »
Eric and Sandac,
Thank you for your comments on the 1986 "Ghost Date." I agree that it’s not a true variety. The chapter has a short introduction (Variety Show) that explains "pseudo-varieties," which are caused by production-related factors like late die states. They are interesting to know about and perhaps collect, but not as significant as true varieties. I plan to remove the PAN number for the 1986 "Ghost Date" in the third edition of “The Gold and Silver Panda Coin Buyer’s Guide.”

Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
China Pricepedia
www.pandacollector.com

Offline pandamonium

  • Supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2162
  • Karma: 34
Re: G100Y 1986 Ghost Date is a matter of degrees
« Reply #4 on: January 15, 2015, 08:19:47 AM »
Peter:   When is the 3rd edition of the Panda book available?..........

Offline PandaCollector

  • Supporter
  • Trade Count: (+5)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2532
  • Karma: 83
  • Gender: Male
    • Pandacollector.com
Re: G100Y 1986 Ghost Date is a matter of degrees
« Reply #5 on: January 15, 2015, 08:31:22 AM »
Peter:   When is the 3rd edition of the Panda book available?..........

I'm working on it, but also working on a different book about Chinese coins...I'll make an announcement when there is a definite publication date.

Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
China Pricepedia
www.pandacollector.com

Offline pandamonium

  • Supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2162
  • Karma: 34
Re: G100Y 1986 Ghost Date is a matter of degrees
« Reply #6 on: January 15, 2015, 09:22:14 AM »
Thanks Peter, but inquiring minds want to know so please pick up the pace and get those books in our hands!.......

Offline eric

  • Supporter
  • Trade Count: (+5)
  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 163
  • Karma: 7
Re: G100Y 1986 Ghost Date is a matter of degrees
« Reply #7 on: January 15, 2015, 04:59:23 PM »
I'll be first in line to buy your new books too Peter :-)

And like I said, I for one would like to see as many pseudo-varieties as possible in the book. I just think the grading companies need to be consistent and not treat them as true varieties.

If you want any nominations for pseudo-varieties to add to the next edition, I think some folks here would be happy to make some suggestions ;-)

Offline PandaCollector

  • Supporter
  • Trade Count: (+5)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2532
  • Karma: 83
  • Gender: Male
    • Pandacollector.com
Re: G100Y 1986 Ghost Date is a matter of degrees
« Reply #8 on: January 16, 2015, 10:12:47 AM »

And like I said, I for one would like to see as many pseudo-varieties as possible in the book...If you want any nominations for pseudo-varieties to add to the next edition, I think some folks here would be happy to make some suggestions ;-)

Eric, thanks and I will remember that.

Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
China Pricepedia
www.pandacollector.com

Offline SANDAC

  • Supporter
  • Global Moderator
  • Trade Count: (+8)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2264
  • Karma: 118
Re: G100Y 1986 Ghost Date is a matter of degrees
« Reply #9 on: January 16, 2015, 12:57:28 PM »
Peter,
I have great admirations for your books and your monthly Pricepedia where varieties are regularly discussed.  The
difference between frosted and ghost can be quite dramatic like the two 1985 G100Y panda below.  So naturally collectors want to know if they are significant enough to be different varieties.  The answer is complicated and I certainly have expressed my current view, but I think it is an opportunity for education and furthur discussion.  Panda is the trend setter and recognition of minor varieties in panda seems the emerging trend.  Like eric, I too am looking for a cohesive methodology of categorizing them.  I hope I'm not putting too much on your shoulder, but I'm looking up to you as the lead proponent in this area.

Offline eric

  • Supporter
  • Trade Count: (+5)
  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 163
  • Karma: 7
Re: G100Y 1986 Ghost Date is a matter of degrees
« Reply #10 on: January 17, 2015, 12:41:50 AM »
Pretty much everything's ghosted on that 1985 G100Y. LOL you just added another must-find to my collection list, thanks SANDAC!  N23

Offline SANDAC

  • Supporter
  • Global Moderator
  • Trade Count: (+8)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2264
  • Karma: 118
Re: G100Y 1986 Ghost Date is a matter of degrees
« Reply #11 on: December 11, 2016, 12:53:08 PM »
Another example of ghost, this is 1991 1/20 small date.  It seems to me most are frosted, but a ghost version can be found.  I still don't consider them as varieties because there are intermediate level of frosting.  The above merely show two most far apart coins out of a random sample of 10.

Offline eric

  • Supporter
  • Trade Count: (+5)
  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 163
  • Karma: 7
Re: G100Y 1986 Ghost Date is a matter of degrees
« Reply #12 on: December 17, 2016, 03:31:00 PM »
Another example of ghost, this is 1991 1/20 small date.  It seems to me most are frosted, but a ghost version can be found.  I still don't consider them as varieties because there are intermediate level of frosting.  The above merely show two most far apart coins out of a random sample of 10.

Another very interesting comparison. The heavily frosted one is extremely heavy frosted, as some of the details are frosted over. So both extremes could be considered an "interesting" addition for a collector. The heavy frosted one is very early die state, and that extreme frosting probably did not last for many strikes. On the other hand, the ghosted is very late die state, and those seem to be a minority also. I still agree they are not true varieties.

Which brings up another very subjective question... which coin is most desirable? The rarity of an early or late strike? Or a typical clean strike from the middle of the batch?

Offline poconopenn

  • Supporter
  • Trade Count: (+7)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2668
  • Karma: 227
Re: G100Y 1986 Ghost Date is a matter of degrees
« Reply #13 on: December 17, 2016, 04:53:24 PM »
The coin with a better frosty surface does not necessary to be made with the earlier stage of die state. Most production die under 3-4 frosty treatments before being consider to be wore out and unusable. Usually, the coin made from production die with earlier stage of second treatment is considered to be the best struck coin. It still has the original 3-D details but with a better frosty surface. Based on the 3-D details in the picture post by SANDC (assuming the pictures were taking with the same lighting, resolution, etc.), IMO, the frosty coin may be made from die after 2 or 3 frosty treatments, while the ghost coin may be the later stage of die state after initial or second treatment.

Offline Hippanda

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 865
  • Karma: 76
Re: G100Y 1986 Ghost Date is a matter of degrees
« Reply #14 on: December 17, 2016, 05:31:49 PM »
Very interesting Poconopenn,
the first coin appears to have most all of its details "frosted out".

One of the standout dates I have observed involving a high level of frosting but with detail retained, is on the 1995 Shenyang pandas.
"He who speaks without modesty will find it difficult to make his words good."

Confucius