Author Topic: WTS 1991 Panda NGC MS69 3.3oz 10th Anniversary Issuance of Chinese Coin silver  (Read 12477 times)

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Offline jc888888888

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Great coin ,has been recently graded also has been conserved by NCS ,no toning ,no spots ,holder is pristine .......3970252-002
1200 usd   pp gift  or add 3% for pay pal invoice     only 2 are graded ms69 @ NGC very low mintage, I also have the brass example of this coin graded ms 68 and will throw it into the deal for 250.00 usd also conserved 3970252-003    free shipping in the US  Happy Holidays!

Offline bonke

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If possible, could you post pictures of the proof and mint state versions of this medal.  Is there a "real" difference or is this just an inconsistency in the NGC label for the same finish on these medals?

Mark Bonke

Offline SANDAC

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The MS catagory first showed up on population report of 10/13/2014.  jc888888888's 3970252-003 is an example.  Here are a few example of the PF: 2760954-015, 3540686-024, 3617341-056.  PF has more mirrored field, especially on the reverse side.

edit: hmmm, this is interesting--it seems most of the "PF" are really MS: 2765304-001, 3357649-001, 3364335-017, 3548834-002, 553437-004, 3553437-005, 3560032-001
« Last Edit: December 17, 2014, 10:10:54 AM by SANDAC »

Offline jc888888888

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So what in fact is the rarer variety?

Offline jc888888888

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3970252-004 is the other MS coin graded by NGC I conserved that coin for a friend of mine it is for sale on eBay

Offline SANDAC

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It seems to me the high-contrast, mirrored field PF are more rare, but the picture quality varies so it is hard to tell in some cases.  The two of three PF I mentioned, 2760954-015, 3540686-024, are actually labelled as "MS" but placed in PF population.  The third one, 3617341-056, is labelled as PF.  So labelling is definitely inconsistent just like bonke said.
 
This one is interesting, 3544547-025, the label says "MS 68" and next line "SET 88/750".  I wonder if this one has a serial number on the edge?  Mr. Gee's book says the mintage is 2000, so I don't know where the 750 number came from. 

I'm confused as well, but I'll post a side-by-side of what I think is PF (2760954-015) vs MS (3970252-004).  Hopefully other members can shed more light on this.

Offline larrydreher

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I have been interested in the 1991 anniversary sets for a number of years.  I've probably seen 12 or more in person and own 5+.  I've never seen a difference in the coins to suggest there are different proof or MS versions of the 3.3 oz silver.  I think its just NGC label inconsistency.

FWIW, an entire raw set including the 3.3 oz silver, 2oz silver, 3Y gold just sold on ebay for $1300.  That's the lowest price I've seen in many years.  Someone got a good deal.

Offline Russ 736

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Larry,
        I watched that set and became ill when I saw it sell at that price. I have the complete set and didn't need another one but if I would have known they were going to give it away, I could have found room for it somewhere.

Russ

Offline SANDAC

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I was researching Zhaoonline for better pictures of the 1991 10th anniversary.  I noticed the recent price of NGC PF69 is around $750 like this one: http://english.zhaoonline.com/detail/auction-2830458-detail.shtml sold in Sept 1, 2014

I also ran across this ungraded 1991 10th anniversary, http://english.zhaoonline.com/detail/auction-2360911-detail.shtml  It looks very suspicious.  The obverse has excessive frosting and lost of details and the reverse has dark spots and craters on the stairway on top of the Great Wall.  Please compare it to yours and confirm my suspicion.

Offline larrydreher

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sorry but I won't have access to be able to compare the coins for at least a few days

Offline jc888888888

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I was researching Zhaoonline for better pictures of the 1991 10th anniversary.  I noticed the recent price of NGC PF69 is around $750 like this one: http://english.zhaoonline.com/detail/auction-2830458-detail.shtml sold in Sept 1, 2014
someone stole that one:)
the pictures of the raw coin are extremely suspect :) those craters on the stairs and on several locations along the wall itself ,I cannot find anywhere on the 3 examples I own (2 raw, one graded ) dark spots of death??

Offline jc888888888

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HOLIDAY SALE !! I WILL LET BOTH MEDALS GO FOR A BARGAIN PRICE $1150 PAY PAL GIFT FOR BOTH PM any interest this weekend the pair will go up for auction on e bay Regard,s Joe
Great coin ,has been recently graded also has been conserved by NCS ,no toning ,no spots ,holder is pristine .......3970252-002
1200 usd   pp gift  or add 3% for pay pal invoice     only 2 are graded ms69 @ NGC very low mintage, I also have the brass example of this coin graded ms 68 and will throw it into the deal for 250.00 usd also conserved 3970252-003    free shipping in the US  Happy Holidays!

Offline jc888888888

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HOLIDAY SALE !! I WILL LET BOTH MEDALS GO FOR A BARGAIN PRICE $1050 PAY PAL GIFT FOR BOTH PM any interest this weekend the pair will go up for auction on e bay Regard,s Joe
Great medals,has been recently graded also has been conserved by NCS ,no toning ,no spots ,holder is pristine .......3970252-002
1050 usd   pp gift  or add 3% for pay pal invoice     only 2 are graded ms69 @ NGC very low mintage, deal comes with the brass example of this coin graded ms 68  also conserved 3970252-003    free shipping in the US  Happy Holidays!
medals are on e bay currently listing #221640992376

andrewlee10

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Hi I have the whole set of the 10Th anni panda 3.3 oz silver, 3.3 oz brass, 2 oz silver and 1 oz gold.

PF68 for the 3.3 oz silver, PF69:3.3 oz brass, PF69:2 oz silver and PF68 : 1 oz gold.

I did came across at least 5 pcs 3.3 oz silver which grade by NGC. All are either toning or with black dot. I heard that many are fake even graded by NGC especially the clean and perfect 3.3 oz silver.

I have been searching for long to get the replacement of the 3.3oz silver PF69 and the 1oz gold PF69. However, a bit scare of the wrongly graded by NGC. There are too many news about this medal in china.

Any panda expert here to help?

Offline jc888888888

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My medals have been sold ..............the one,s i graded came from a 4 coin set 10Th anniv panda 3.3 oz silver, 3.3 oz brass, 2 oz silver and the little 3 y gold  I graded all 4 coins at the same time ,it is highly unlikely that someone would fake the silver medal and put it with 3 genuine coins it does not make sense ,I guess you have to know where the medal comes from ,I have heard that the silver 3.3 medal has been counterfeited I have also heard that the  WGT of the fake medal is way off by like 3/10 of an oz I have a hard time believing that NGC would not pick that up......that being said would i buy a raw medal on its own from someone I did not know probably not .....I do believe you are ok buying the graded ones .

andrewlee10

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68I bought the whole set with box and coa from panda America which definitely safe in this case.

I am a bit worry of buying a wrongly graded 3.3oz silver PF69 to replace my PF68 as many china coin expert have cited counterfeited. It is not the low grade counterfeit with 3/120 oz type N24

Offline jc888888888

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NGC has pretty good authenticity guarantee

Offline poconopenn

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I also ran across this ungraded 1991 10th anniversary, http://english.zhaoonline.com/detail/auction-2360911-detail.shtml  It looks very suspicious.  The obverse has excessive frosting and lost of details and the reverse has dark spots and craters on the stairway on top of the Great Wall.  Please compare it to yours and confirm my suspicion.

This medal is definitely a fake, most likely was silver plated on clad (white metal). Attached is an enlarged picture of part of great wall side.

andrewlee10

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I will not be particular if I wear seller hat. Even wrongly grade item even it grade by the reputable grading company.

However, I am super particular when I wear a collector hat. I really concern for the wrongly graded coin even o know I can get the money back from grading company as their policy. However, this not money matter.

It has romour that the mould for this 3.3 oz silver panda has been circulated so the so call counterfeit is not easy to identify. I really not sure is this true

Offline jc888888888

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Understood I am a collector first and a part time seller to try to support my collecting habit :),NGC makes mistakes for sure ..but they do in general know what they are doing............. but with this medal only apx 93 in total graded which represents less than 5% of the planned mintage one would think the coins graded  would be legitimate .if fakes where graded The population would be larger IMHO.....the MS vs PF debate in my opinion looking at a lot of these coins is most probably a grading error when you compare the 2 the difference does not stand out enough to warrant this designation I think they are all MS coins I have never seen a mint COA to know the mint intention the only COA,s I have seen have been from the 4 coin box that everyone is aware of  ........Also consider this there was a fair amount of NGC bashing among st coin dealers in China it has slowed in the recent past and I do business with dealers in China all the time ......but apx 3 to 4 years ago there was a lot of NGC bashing by dealers in China the song was almost deafening ,it pretty much went like this EVERYTHING NGC grades has fakes among them ,they dont know what they are doing etc...........I think a lot of it stemmed from those dealers seeing a premium for NGC coins at the time and at the time they as dealers did not have  access to NGC easily to grade their coins and reap a premium ......Now lets fast forward almost all the reputable dealers in China sell and grade coins with NGC and I can tell you that song from them has become almost silent:) I am not an NGC cheerleader I accept the service as for what it is ,at this time probably the best option to grade and authenticate Modern chinese coins ...

andrewlee10

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I like NGC more than PCGS as personal preference.

As my understand that panda America has sold many version of the coin set like 3 coin, 4 coins and 5 coins set.

The 3.3 silver own by them and grade it are all tones and some with black mark at the great wall sides. They did release few for selling at ebay. However, they did keep few as personal collection.

This really worry me of buying a totally clean 3.3 oz except the reliable sources as you quote. Therefore, I did not bid any PF69 till now

Offline SANDAC

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This medal is definitely a fake, most likely was silver plated on clad (white metal). Attached is an enlarged picture of part of great wall side.
poconopenn,
Thank you for your analysis.  The particular item received 62 bids and was sold for ~$550 on 10/21/2013 on zhaoonline.  Apparently a number of bidders were fooled by it.  Given a good picture, that particular fake is not too hard to spot.  It is rough with details missing.  The crater marks on the Great Wall are certainly easy to spot.  On second thought, $550 seems high for this ungraded, cratered coin even if it was genuine. 

I have an on-going project to assemble side-by-side pictures of genuine vs fakes and post them on CCF gallery.  I'd appreciate good pictures of suspect fakes from everyone.



http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=509

Offline jc888888888

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Just my opinion here : the recent downturn in coin prices has certainly reset expectations of what folks will pay for a coin or medal but looking back that silver medal graded 69 by ngc was a 1500 to 2000 usd medal ,look at the 1991 piefort 2oz coin you never saw them under 1200 now you probably can buy one for 700/800 usd   I only can speak for myself my opinion is we are bouncing along the bottom here and I am buying as much as I can ,I just bought a 1991 4 coin set on e bay a few days ago .these and many other MCC are bargains and we will look back at this 2 year period and there will be a fair amount of folks kicking themselves ...  IMHO $550 for a genuine ungraded 1991 silver medal is an absolute steal  and is an easy double your money proposition in 2 to 4 years and I believe less when the cycle turns.these are low mintage medals with subject matter that speaks tremendous volumes to MCC collectors  "great wall"  "panda anniversary" I could be wrong but we will see :) I sold 1 of my graded ones to fund buying 2 more sets or trust me it would have not been for sale and it went for almost double that 550 price just an FYI....I see too many signs of this market turning there is no dumping there is a whole lot of strong hands knowing  that what they hold is going to turn.

Offline jc888888888

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BTW poconopenn is spot on .....the white clad fakes are easily detected ,just pop them up on a scale they are way off ,I dont know if any pure silver fakes have been produced as another member has suggested but a friend in China was offered 10 and the scale told the story right away

barsenault

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Dang, I have a 69, and it better be real. LOL. I bought it from a reputable dealer a while back.  IT was conserved and on the NGC website.  the one piece of equipment I'm investing in when I get my tax return is one of these verifiers for about 800.00.  Must have in these times!!

Offline PandaCollector

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I like NGC more than PCGS as personal preference.

As my understand that panda America has sold many version of the coin set like 3 coin, 4 coins and 5 coins set.

The 3.3 silver own by them and grade it are all tones and some with black mark at the great wall sides. They did release few for selling at ebay. However, they did keep few as personal collection.

This really worry me of buying a totally clean 3.3 oz except the reliable sources as you quote. Therefore, I did not bid any PF69 till now

From what I recall, all – or nearly all – of these medals passed though PandaAmerica's hands after they were struck. Many were then sold as sets wholesale to another dealer, as well as to retail customers.

Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
China Pricepedia
www.pandacollector.com

Offline PandaCollector

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poconopenn,
Thank you for your analysis.  The particular item received 62 bids and was sold for ~$550 on 10/21/2013 on zhaoonline.  Apparently a number of bidders were fooled by it.  Given a good picture, that particular fake is not too hard to spot.  It is rough with details missing.  The crater marks on the Great Wall are certainly easy to spot.  On second thought, $550 seems high for this ungraded, cratered coin even if it was genuine.  


I agree. For me, it is always important to look at the texture of a coin's surface. The wrong texture can be a strong indication that there is something suspicious about a coin.

Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
China Pricepedia
www.pandacollector.com

Offline pandamonium

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Dang, I have a 69, and it better be real. LOL. I bought it from a reputable dealer a while back.  IT was conserved and on the NGC website.  the one piece of equipment I'm investing in when I get my tax return is one of these verifiers for about 800.00.  Must have in these times!!




What do you mean verifier for $800??......

barsenault

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check it out.  I think the price range is 750 - 900, depending on parts ordered.  This will be a staple among collectors, I believe.  I know I will be buying one when I save pennies; and those on silver stackers forum have used them, and say they work great.  http://youtu.be/v_6XbbuDc9Uj

anyone interested in a group buy.  I'm going to ask my commrads over in Silver Stackers too.  Maybe we can widdle this ugy down some.  Looks like 889.00 all in (including the bullion wand)
« Last Edit: December 26, 2014, 09:41:55 AM by barsenault »

Offline SANDAC

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I agree. For me, it is always important to look at the texture of a coin's surface. The wrong texture can be a strong indication that there is something suspicious about a coin.

Having engaged in several forgery discussions lately and thought about it a few more times, IMO the Achilles heel of EDM forgery is the loss of details and rough surface texture.  That is the inherent flaw of EDM forgery due to three additional and unavoidable duplication steps:  

original coin --> EDM master (positive master),
EDM master --> EDM working die (negative),
EDM working die --> EDM fake coins.  

Even if the EDM duplication and subsequent die making and coin striking were perfect (in many cases they are not), the resulting coins will always lack the sharpness of details and smoothness of devices of the genuine coins.  Looking back to the earlier discussions on forgery, similar observations have already been made by respected senior members like yourself and poconopenn.  However, it is perhaps worth repeating for the benefit of newer members.

The problem with the loss-detail-rough-texture identification technique is that it needs very good picture of the fake and detailed knowledge of the genuine one.  This is why physical examination by NGC/PCGS or knowledgable dealers is the best method.  A somewhat less certain but DIY approach is to compare the coin in question with a good picture of the genuine coin.  Regrettably, the NGC file pictures are not good enough.  I find zhao online has high quality pictures of MCC and it is worth one's effort to learn their clumsy search engine.

barsenault

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I'm assuming this is real?  N17





andrewlee10

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There are toning of this medal. As I saw majority are toning. Panda America has at least 5 graded on hand. All tones.

I really concern of buying a totally clean graded one from unknown seller.

Peter Anthony,

Yes, I heard from peter yeung that panda America get this set and make few version for distribution.

Cheers

Offline jc888888888

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Toned genuine raw example  :001_rolleyes:

barsenault

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Hey JC is that yours?  Nothing a little NCS can't clean up? :-0)

Offline jc888888888

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There are toning of this medal. As I saw majority are toning. Panda America has at least 5 graded on hand. All tones.

I really concern of buying a totally clean graded one from unknown seller.

Peter Anthony,

Yes, I heard from peter yeung that panda America get this set and make few version for distribution.

Cheers

The one thing you might like to consider in regard,s to toned and not toned graded medals : a fair amount of these medals have been conserved by NCS before being graded by NGC the giveaway is in the cert # normally a coin that has been conserved by NCS the cert# will start with 36,37,38 ,39  ...I have personally never owned a raw example that was genuine and not toned and I have owned more than 10...if I was buying a raw coin and it was not toned I would be wary the capsules that these coins where put in where loose and in no way anywhere close to airtight causing toning .....the real find and what I personally feel is a more valuable medal is the gilt /brass version in a 69 grade, every one that I have ever seen has a head rub on the center panda because of the loose capsules and the medal consequently bouncing around when graded many will only grade 67 68 still a beautiful medal and a high grade for a large brass/gilt coin the sets in the wood box 4 coin are very prone to this brass bear with the head rub .  

Offline jc888888888

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Hey JC is that yours?  Nothing a little NCS can't clean up? :-0)

yes sir .that is where it is going:)

barsenault

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not a bad return...get it for 50.00, brighten it up, and sell it for 900.00...not a bad gig. :-)

Offline jc888888888

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not a bad return...get it for 50.00, brighten it up, and sell it for 900.00...not a bad gig. :-)

from your mouth to God,s ears my friend ...........:) LOL    I only wish........LOL

andrewlee10

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This is mine. The 3.3 silver have bad mar in great wall.

3750914-001. It is tone. As my understand it is not clean and conserved by NGC even it is start with 37XXXX.

The brass is PF69. Gold is PF68

Offline jc888888888

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very nice your silver medal has very little toning? looks like it could have been conserved ?? you mind sharing the first 2 digits of the cert #? 

andrewlee10

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3750914-001 for the 3.3 silver
3750914-002 for the 3.3 brass
2625153-007 for the 2 oz silver
2525154-006 for the 1 oz gold

Offline jc888888888

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both the silver and the brass I am quite sure by the cert#,s have been conserved by NCS thanks

andrewlee10

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according to the seller panda America the reply is "NON" conserved

Offline jc888888888

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my mistake ......

andrewlee10

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Do you come across any 5 oz gold 30th anniversary with good grade?

This is my 2015 target