Author Topic: Zeng Chenghu discussing coin dies including those for pagodas and goldfish  (Read 19463 times)

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Offline Hippanda

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Re: Zeng Chenghu discussing coin dies including those for pagodas and goldfish
« Reply #30 on: October 17, 2017, 02:04:37 AM »
There are important differences between original 1984 Goldfish  (Mr Yi Shizhong ) which can help determine whether it's desired Silver, or just plated.  First die state (both brass and silver) DragonEyes have full water plant. (Pic1).  First Re-strikes have missing branch (pic 2) and second restrikes have repaired branch ( pic 3). Cheap silver plated do not have full branch version (except cheap gold gilded, oddly).  If medal is silver and Dragon Eyes has full branch (pic 1)  then it is original first die state Silver, without flaw and rare and valuable.  All three die states exist with original 1984 Goldfish.  There was once some bogus conjecture offered by a discredited poster that a flawless 1984 did not exist and that is why they were somehow not given due attention over Pagoda medal, but that is clearly erroneous.  Indeed- flawless 1984 original die state, with full water plant, does exist. See photos. Happy hunting!



** credit to FWang and others for photos and research.
"He who speaks without modesty will find it difficult to make his words good."

Confucius

Online pandamonium

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Re: Zeng Chenghu discussing coin dies including those for pagodas and goldfish
« Reply #31 on: October 17, 2017, 08:10:02 AM »
Interesting.    If there are 2 restrikes of the 84 silver goldfish then what is actual mintage?      I have seen on ebay - list and sell 3 OMP silver goldfish sets in the last yr (plus graded sets).
How about silver Plate goldfish?    Are there photos to distinguish real silver from Plate?     Was this info on another CCF post?

How about this 1980 Chinese Exhibition horse w/ swallow photo in PF 66?     3 piece set w/ Handshake and Bao He Palace.     Probably not, but is this hand engraved dies?      Ebay photo.....

Offline Hippanda

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Re: Zeng Chenghu discussing coin dies including those for pagodas and goldfish
« Reply #32 on: October 17, 2017, 10:29:56 AM »
Correction : did not mean to write restrikes : meant second die states and third die states.   
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Confucius

Offline PandaQuest

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Re: Zeng Chenghu discussing coin dies including those for pagodas and goldfish
« Reply #33 on: October 17, 2017, 12:26:12 PM »
IMHO, pic #2 looks like the same die as #3 but worn down and polished. Maybe #2 was reworked.

Offline Hippanda

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Re: Zeng Chenghu discussing coin dies including those for pagodas and goldfish
« Reply #34 on: October 17, 2017, 01:34:12 PM »
I can see how that is possible.
"He who speaks without modesty will find it difficult to make his words good."

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Offline bonke

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Re: Zeng Chenghu discussing coin dies including those for pagodas and goldfish
« Reply #35 on: October 18, 2017, 12:09:58 PM »
After reading the post about the three die states, I looked at my three silver Dragon Eyes medals and my two silver-plated brass Dragon Eyes medals.  My silver medals are 1-first die state and 2-third die state varieties.  My silver-plated medals are both second die state varieties.  In the past, there were posts about these die states because I already had small stickers on the NGC slabs showing the appropriate die state.

I have not purchased one of these medals for many years and have lost track of the discussion about them.

Mark Bonke

Offline Hippanda

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Re: Zeng Chenghu discussing coin dies including those for pagodas and goldfish
« Reply #36 on: October 24, 2017, 01:54:55 AM »
IMHO, pic #2 looks like the same die as #3 but worn down and polished. Maybe #2 was reworked.

It is difficult to make judgements off of photos, where lighting can affect perceived quality of strike. Much better to judge actual coins under magnification and good images. I pulled out my set of die state 1 with water plant intact, to examine under magnification, and compared with several magnified images of die state 2 and 3. Details which either show up, or not, on photos can furnish clues which can help lead to an educated guess.  On specimen #3, (with the water plant stem apparently added) there is some detail missing in the area before the tail, which is evident in both specimens 1 and 2. Also, water plant under fish belly does not seem to reach as far as 1 and 2.  Therefore it seems logical to conclude photo specimen 2 although faulty due to poor photo quality, has some details of #1 while 3 does not, supporting previous theories about water plant being intact on die state 1, missing on die state 2, then stem added on die state 3, which seems to make most sense.
"He who speaks without modesty will find it difficult to make his words good."

Confucius

Offline poconopenn

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Re: Zeng Chenghu discussing coin dies including those for pagodas and goldfish
« Reply #37 on: October 28, 2017, 02:03:03 PM »
It is difficult to make judgements off of photos, where lighting can affect perceived quality of strike. Much better to judge actual coins under magnification and good images. I pulled out my set of die state 1 with water plant intact, to examine under magnification, and compared with several magnified images of die state 2 and 3. Details which either show up, or not, on photos can furnish clues which can help lead to an educated guess.  On specimen #3, (with the water plant stem apparently added) there is some detail missing in the area before the tail, which is evident in both specimens 1 and 2. Also, water plant under fish belly does not seem to reach as far as 1 and 2.  Therefore it seems logical to conclude photo specimen 2 although faulty due to poor photo quality, has some details of #1 while 3 does not, supporting previous theories about water plant being intact on die state 1, missing on die state 2, then stem added on die state 3, which seems to make most sense.

IMO, based on the pictures, medal in picture 1 is an earlier stage die, medal in picture 2 is a later stage die and picture 3 is a reworked die, as suggested of frosty design differences in the marked areas.

Offline Hippanda

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Re: Zeng Chenghu discussing coin dies including those for pagodas and goldfish
« Reply #38 on: October 28, 2017, 06:40:36 PM »
Agreed. 
"He who speaks without modesty will find it difficult to make his words good."

Confucius

Offline Hippanda

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Re: Zeng Chenghu discussing coin dies including those for pagodas and goldfish
« Reply #39 on: October 29, 2017, 02:37:27 AM »
Question : How can this whole cluster of water plant "disappear" from the first die?
"He who speaks without modesty will find it difficult to make his words good."

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Offline poconopenn

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Re: Zeng Chenghu discussing coin dies including those for pagodas and goldfish
« Reply #40 on: October 29, 2017, 05:16:00 PM »
Question : How can this whole cluster of water plant "disappear" from the first die?

Hippanda

As always, your question is very thoughtful and right to the point of the mysterious part of this 1984 goldfish set. Apparently, I have reached my opinion pre-mutually. Unlike “vanished features” (usually thin lines) of Historical Figures as shown in SANDAC’s postings in the following links, the vanished section of water plant in gold fish is too bulky to be attributed to a later stage of working die. The possibility of the removal of this water plant may be caused by polishing the working hub since the water plant is the raised part of the working hub. It is much more difficulty to polished away the raised part of medal designs on a working die (negative imagine) vs. working hub (positive imagine), especially for a relatively large section of the raised part of the design to be vanished without trace of visible residue.

http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=4585.msg25369#msg25369
http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=4585.msg25370#msg25370
http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=4585.msg26205#msg26205

“raremedal” also posted pictures in the following link for three versions of copper medals. Clearly the frosty designs of copper medals are different from silver medals in the marked areas in my previous posted pictures for these three versions; the picture of copper medal with a missed section of water plant has a design similar to silver medal with intact water plant, while copper medal with an intact water plant is similar to silver medal with a missed section of water plant.

http://www.coin001.com/read.php?tid=75456

“raremedal” stated that some of his pictures were copied from internet. We definitely need better pictures to rule out the possibility of “optical illusion” caused by the differences in angles and lightings used in those pictures.

Regardless of the differences of frosty designs which caused by frosty treatment of working die, we can conclude medals in picture 2 and picture 3 in previous post  were made from two different reworked working hubs.

Unlike most MCC which have multiple master dies (negative imagine), hand engraved medal, such as this medal, only has one master die, therefore, very limited working hub.


Offline Hippanda

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Re: Zeng Chenghu discussing coin dies including those for pagodas and goldfish
« Reply #41 on: October 29, 2017, 08:00:28 PM »
Yes, poconopenn- mysteries still pop up unexplained.  Here is another one I noticed last year : there appears to be TWO different "water plant added" stem types : one is in line with plant as it would seem meant to be (shown in pic 1 silver medal) and the other out of line with plant, angled somewhat upwards on what appears to be brass or gilt brass medal (pic 2). (Somebody has mentioned there were no "copper" goldfish, brass was once mis-translated as copper) I've looked at it many times and cannot believe it is due to angle of camera. So possibly there were at least four different dies used for obverse?
And furthermore, speculating due to the differences in die state features you pointed out, the brass / gilt brass pic 2 shows more details than silver pic 1, so possibly the mal-aimed stem was added on die #3, and then possibly corrected and made straight on the last iteration with a later die?
"He who speaks without modesty will find it difficult to make his words good."

Confucius

Offline wg

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Re: Zeng Chenghu discussing coin dies including those for pagodas and goldfish
« Reply #42 on: November 19, 2017, 11:02:39 AM »
IMO, based on the pictures, medal in picture 1 is an earlier stage die ...




Offline wg

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Re: Zeng Chenghu discussing coin dies including those for pagodas and goldfish
« Reply #43 on: November 27, 2017, 10:37:40 AM »
1990 ag goldfish
1984 ag plated

Offline wg

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Re: Zeng Chenghu discussing coin dies including those for pagodas and goldfish
« Reply #44 on: November 28, 2017, 06:22:22 AM »