Author Topic: Grading standard of NGC and PCGS  (Read 15259 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline poconopenn

  • Supporter
  • Trade Count: (+7)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2643
  • Karma: 226
Re: Grading standard of NGC and PCGS
« Reply #15 on: October 22, 2014, 09:07:34 PM »
Frankly, I was surprised to see the increase of % NGC69 &70 graded in the last two months vs. total coins graded in the past (about 10 years). In addition, the number of the coins graded by NGC during last two months was about 250% more than the monthly average during last 10 years. In earlier October, NGC had conducted an on-site grading inside China. This might be the reason of such large number coins graded by NGC during last two months. The following thread also suggested that NGC might had lowered its grading standard in the last two years and might be related to the on-site grading in China.

http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=10647.0

The conclusion reached was not based on my personal subjective opinion, but based on the data from NGC population report.
 
The following summarizes the changes, based on the data posted previously.

Offline silverstar1

  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 114
  • Karma: 6
Re: Grading standard of NGC and PCGS
« Reply #16 on: October 22, 2014, 11:14:28 PM »
This is a very good point about the on site grading in China , and I suspect could very well help explain the recent population growth in higher grade coins if some Chinese dealers or individuals are getting some very high grade coins and or sheets graded , plus the increased popularity in graded coins in China, especially if they are choosing NGC over PCGS. I hate to open a can of worms but I have noticed recently coins from China from both PCGS and NGC that i would consider overgraded . I would think that the grading standards would be consistent whether graded at the main sites in the US or overseas but that may not be the case , it could also be that Chinese dealers are selling the inferior coins (yet graded accordingly) to overseas customers . Again good data Poconopenn and thanks for sharing it. 

Offline Butch

  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 69
  • Karma: 3
Re: Grading standard of NGC and PCGS
« Reply #17 on: January 09, 2015, 05:38:25 PM »
poconopenn,

I love the work you put into Chinese numismatic statistics.  If you want, please create a list for 1 oz silver proof pandas (and other lines of coins!) 

It is interesting to see NGC is tougher in grading than PCGS with some lines of coins.  Never would imagine that!

Offline poconopenn

  • Supporter
  • Trade Count: (+7)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2643
  • Karma: 226
Re: Grading standard of NGC and PCGS
« Reply #18 on: August 11, 2016, 11:41:18 PM »
It has been two years since the last update. Here is the updated data for 1989-2000 silver BU panda.

The first table is based on the population reports of NGC and PCGS, dated 8/11/2016.

The second  and third table are copied from previous posts, based on the population reports on 8/10/2014 and 10/20/2014 respectively.

The new data, clearly, suggest that PCGS has a tougher grading standard than NGC, at least in the last two years, for earlier silver BU pandas.   

Offline KeyDate1/2ozPandas

  • Supporter
  • Trade Count: (+15)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 885
  • Karma: 199
  • Gender: Male
    • China Mint Coins, LLC
Re: Grading standard of NGC and PCGS
« Reply #19 on: August 12, 2016, 01:17:46 AM »
One thing that greatly affects grading distributions is bulk grading.  Under bulk grading you specify minimum grade of ms69 and any coin that doesn't meet the minimum is not added to the grading distribution.  In any given year the distribution of bulk grading vs collector submission makes a big difference on the distributions.  Also, someone like me rarely does bulk grading but any ms67-68 I get I crack open and turn in the labels back to NGC to remove from pop reports, so there appearance that ms69 is much easier to get than reality.

Offline poconopenn

  • Supporter
  • Trade Count: (+7)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2643
  • Karma: 226
Re: Grading standard of NGC and PCGS
« Reply #20 on: August 12, 2016, 10:54:12 PM »
The effects of bulk grading on the MS69 for pre-2000 silver pandas would be very limited, since they were simply not available in multiple sheets by any dealer during last few years. It definitely will affect post 2010 and the data of 2016 suggest that many dealers in US made submission of 1000-5000 coins during later December of 2015 and earlier January of 2016.  

Offline Tao-Panda

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 231
  • Karma: 5
Re: Grading standard of NGC and PCGS
« Reply #21 on: August 13, 2016, 05:19:53 AM »
The new data, clearly, suggest that PCGS has a tougher grading standard than NGC, at least in the last two years, for earlier silver BU pandas.  

It is really difficult to know the true behind grading standard but the rumour told previously that PCGS grading standard was more accurate than NGC standard.
I'm always surprised to hear people telling that NGC graded coins are sold higher than PCGS graded ones... that's not what I note in auction. From what I see, prices are into the same range.
But that's true that some people clearly claim that they only want to buy NGC graded coins. So, it means less PCGS buyers.

I sent some coins to PCGS restoration service but they only restored a single coins; others came back without being restored and in my opinion, increasing the eye appeal of these coins was not difficult at all
So, I plan to try NCS in the next few weeks.
Is NCS really good ?
For exemple, can NCS do something for this coin ?
For the record, it has been submitted to PCGS restoration service but it came back without restoration... bad point for me.



Offline KeyDate1/2ozPandas

  • Supporter
  • Trade Count: (+15)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 885
  • Karma: 199
  • Gender: Male
    • China Mint Coins, LLC
Re: Grading standard of NGC and PCGS
« Reply #22 on: August 13, 2016, 05:21:19 PM »
Bulk grading is supposed to be for submissions of a 100 coins of one date and type, however over the years dealers have worked out submissions where you can have 10 different coins that add up to 100 coins and still count as a bulk submission. I know dealers that still do a lot of bulk submission for 1989-2006 years.

Online Agpanda

  • Supporter
  • Trade Count: (+3)
  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 145
  • Karma: 8
    • agpandas
Re: Grading standard of NGC and PCGS
« Reply #23 on: August 13, 2016, 06:04:07 PM »
I did a quick search on ebay, put in "silver Panda"
There was 830graded by NGC, and 271 from PCGS
When i did same search but this time for MS69 and MS70
There was NGC 406 and PCGS 214
So it seems like there are higher % of PCGS that are graded high

Offline poconopenn

  • Supporter
  • Trade Count: (+7)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2643
  • Karma: 226
Re: Grading standard of NGC and PCGS
« Reply #24 on: August 13, 2016, 10:02:57 PM »
I did a quick search on ebay, put in "silver Panda"
There was 830graded by NGC, and 271 from PCGS
When i did same search but this time for MS69 and MS70
There was NGC 406 and PCGS 214
So it seems like there are higher % of PCGS that are graded high

The majority of eBay listings are for post-2010 pandas. All post-2010 were graded 98% better than MS69 by both companies. They are very different from pre-2000 silver panda.

Offline poconopenn

  • Supporter
  • Trade Count: (+7)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2643
  • Karma: 226
Re: Grading standard of NGC and PCGS
« Reply #25 on: August 13, 2016, 10:13:46 PM »
Bulk grading is supposed to be for submissions of a 100 coins of one date and type, however over the years dealers have worked out submissions where you can have 10 different coins that add up to 100 coins and still count as a bulk submission. I know dealers that still do a lot of bulk submission for 1989-2006 years.

I just examined eBay listings for 1989 silver panda. 14 of NGC graded coin out of 33 listings, based on the holder and label, are determined to be graded during last few years. Only two of those recent graded coin, based on the invoice #, suggest more than one coin was graded (one has two and another has 4).

It is my understanding, the bulk submission can be more than 100. Here is an example, 4386895-274 is for 2016 silver panda.

Offline Tao-Panda

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 231
  • Karma: 5
Re: Grading standard of NGC and PCGS
« Reply #26 on: August 14, 2016, 04:05:59 PM »
No answer to my question.
Isn't there, on this forum, any experienced NCS customer who could share his expertise about conservation for such a coin ?

Offline silverpv

  • Supporter
  • Trade Count: (+9)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 326
  • Karma: 17
Re: Grading standard of NGC and PCGS
« Reply #27 on: August 15, 2016, 01:17:16 AM »
No answer to my question.
Isn't there, on this forum, any experienced NCS customer who could share his expertise about conservation for such a coin ?

ncs can do wonders for a coin and I've seen them clear red spots no problem. However in my last interaction with NCS and gold pandas they did not conserve the coin with red spots, all other times they have and increased the eye appeal. I still received a ms69 even with the red spot.

So in my opinion, yes they can fix it, but sometimes they choose not to. I'm not sure why.

Offline Tao-Panda

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 231
  • Karma: 5
Re: Grading standard of NGC and PCGS
« Reply #28 on: August 15, 2016, 09:28:20 AM »
ncs can do wonders for a coin and I've seen them clear red spots no problem. However in my last interaction with NCS and gold pandas they did not conserve the coin with red spots, all other times they have and increased the eye appeal. I still received a ms69 even with the red spot.

So in my opinion, yes they can fix it, but sometimes they choose not to. I'm not sure why.

Thank you for your reply.
Could you post a phot of your coin which has not been conserved ?

Offline poconopenn

  • Supporter
  • Trade Count: (+7)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2643
  • Karma: 226
Re: Grading standard of NGC and PCGS
« Reply #29 on: August 17, 2016, 06:23:21 PM »
The updated grading population data, covered period of 8/2014-8/2016, for 15gm silver lunar series and 1/10 oz. gold panda for period of 1982-1993 are given in the attached tables.

NGC clearly has lowered its grading standard for both series during last two years and PCGS has maintained a tougher grading standard than NGC in grading these two series during last two years. The difference is quite significant in 15 gm lunar series.   The new data confirm the similar trend shown in the updated data of 1 oz. silver panda posted in reply #18. It is interested to note that NGC has further gained the market share in grading MCC, based on the data from these three series, during last two years.

NGC had its office in China much earlier (at least two years) than PCGS and its connection to few large bullion dealers, with some of them having their office located in South Florida, has made NGC to be the preferable grading service for MCC. For collectors, the grading of recently issued bullions (panda, eagle, maple and etc.) is just not cost-effective vs. buying graded coin from those large dealers, who are enjoy large discount of grading fee for bulk submission and no shipping cost, since they are located nearby the NGC office. This has created a win-win marketing strategy for NGC and those bullion dealers, as well as collectors of bullion coins. Similarly, PCGS was in the grading of Imperial and Republic coins for much longer time than NGC, therefore, a higher premium for those coins.

IMO, the current preference of NGC over PCGS and a higher premium for MCC has nothing to do with the grading standard. Clearly NGC has a better marketing strategy and has reacted quickly to the market demand inside China. IMO, the better chance to receive a higher grade from NGC than PCGS for those three series may be part of NGC marketing strategy in gaining the market share.

It is also interesting to note that the combined NGC and PCGS graded 0.1 oz. earlier gold panda is only 0.6% of the total mintage.