Topic: Do I have the Record for most milk spots on ms69 coin

[Cornishfarmer]

Just received a coin from a reputable coin seller on eBay with a feed back of over 13000, it's a 2007 1 oz ms69 NCGS panda. So far I have counted over 60 spots on the coin with the naked eye, is this a record??!!! On a serious note I know they do get spots but it wasn't on the description that it had them, the photo wasn't of the actual coin. I did get it for £45 which is quite good, what should I do?
1 return the coin
2 keep the coin because it is still an 07 ms69
3 sell it on with an honest description
4 sell it to anyone that reads this for $300

Also bought a couple ms65 and ms66 they are marked like they look like they have condensation on, should I expect that on this grade coin

[1668Chris]

Return the coin.  For the others graded 65 or 66 haze and spots would be common place.

[digbird]

 I'd return it then give the bloke a neutral or red blotch for lousy coin descriptions. This practice has to stop. We need all the honesty we can get in this hobby. Non-disclosure is deceptive.

This happened to me and that's what I did many years ago. Seller wrote to me that he was upset, I replied, probably not as much as me.

[NBM]

It is dishonest to sell a coin without disclosing it's glaring flaws, especially when they use a different picture.
Their feedback should describe this deceptive behavior.

[AllSong]

A wild wild guess: Thelondoncoincompany?! 45£+15£?

[AllSong]

Try to return it (it´s against their policies, since they don´t grade coins, PCGS does) 

[Cornishfarmer]

A wild wild guess: Thelondoncoincompany?! 45£+15£?

You are right, had bit of a set to with them about the cost of additional shipping as well, but they are right they do display what they will charge, still came as a shock when it was added together

[AllSong]

http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=9886.0

I never got to give them some negative feedback  I hesitated too much, which will never happen happen again! They truely are not honest and try to get rid of their poorly conserved coins 

[Cornishfarmer]

I am bit of a tool just read the listing and does say it has white spots. Know of and good honest ebay/web site sellers.

[wg]

http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=9886.0

I never got to give them some negative feedback  I hesitated too much, which will never happen happen again! They truely are not honest and try to get rid of their poorly conserved coins 

this seller still owes me money.

 

[NBM]

Title changed so search engines can pick it up.

This account?

http://members.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewUserPage&userid=thelondoncoincompany

Unhidden eBay feedback:

http://toolhaus.org/cgi-bin/negs?User=+thelondoncoincompany+&Dirn=Received+by&ref=home

Is this the same crook?

The London Coin Company Limited & eBay Copyright Theft
Alter ego of Ingram Liberman
Ingram Liberman used to list coins on eBay as ingramliberman, but appears to have changed his eBay user name to thelondoncoincompany, although there is also another eBay user registered as londoncoincompany, perhaps a spare?

http://taxfreegold.co.uk/thelondoncoincompanylimited.html

This particular eBay seller has as many IDs as Carlos the Jackal, including the grandly titled and important sounding "THE LONDON COIN COMPANY LTD" (thelondoncoincompany), with websites: www.GoldProof.co.uk, www.SilverProof.co.uk, www.CoinCollectables.co.uk; there may be more names out there...

thelondoncoincompany The London Coin Company Selling Replica Sovereigns on eBay as Restrikes

http://taxfreegold.co.uk/thelondoncoincompany.html

Mr. Ingram Liberman

http://www.zoominfo.com/p/Ingram-Liberman/1504529550

https://plus.google.com/113566715447108480723/about

PCGS quotes him in articles?

http://www.pcgs.com/news/pcgs-paris-grades-2014-2-britannia-lunar-mule-varieties

[jc888888888]

I really don't know what is so hard about ,you sell a coin to your customer he does not like it you take it back ,in the case of graded coins ,you take as good of photo,s as you can ,provide cert #,s and then still if a customer does not like it ,you take it back........... it seems if you know a coin has a problem you let the buyer know and you prevent hassles upfront, the only caveat  for buyers is if you have an inexpensive graded coin for example a 2007 panda and it is graded ms67 or 68 and sells for 60/70 usd ,it is graded that way for a reason:) if it is a 69 or 70 and it has spots the seller  should let the buyer know upfront and avoid hassles, every once in a while 1 can get by someone so you make the buyer happy and it is all good . This is why I try to stay away from pcgs graded coins ! they will grade spotted coins 69 and 70 ......NGC on the other hand no way ,no how! they pick up on it no matter how slight ,they do not want to pay on their guarantee:) if a coin has a slight shadow ,spot, haze etc, no matter how small it is not getting a 69 or better grade no matter how pretty the coin is. I can show you 1996 small date panda,s that you need 5x lighted magnification and you need to really ,really look for a shadow all received ms68  these are beautiful coins 8 out of 10 people would not even spot these very slight imperfection .ngc did:) NGC is looking for this with the right lighting and it is an automatic downgrade IMHO, it is their top priority when grading MCC, if a coin graded by ngc  a 69 or better and it has been graded in the last 2 years ,if it has spots it developed them after grading IMHO
001   1996   CHINA   PANDA SMALL DATE   S10Y    MS 69      
002   1996   CHINA   PANDA SMALL DATE   S10Y    MS 69      
003   1996   CHINA   PANDA SMALL DATE   S10Y    MS 68      
004   1996   CHINA   PANDA SMALL DATE   S10Y    MS 68      
005   1996   CHINA   PANDA SMALL DATE   S10Y    MS 68      
006   1996   CHINA   PANDA SMALL DATE   S10Y    MS 68      
007   1996   CHINA   PANDA SMALL DATE   S10Y    MS 68      
008   1996   CHINA   PANDA SMALL DATE   S10Y    MS 69      
009   1996   CHINA   PANDA SMALL DATE   S10Y    MS 68      

[GDG's]

I would like to thank everyone who contributed posts to this thread.

I for one will never bid on another MCC from the londoncoincompany. I'll bet he just begins selling under a different name and ebay will allow it. I've contacted ebay before about dishonest sellers on ebay and NOTHING happened. If a seller makes money for ebay they seem to look the other way. Disappointing, especially to a novice collector who just may walk away forever. This forum is a great place for novice collectors. Perhaps a thread needs to be started for trustworthy sellers so newer guys/gals know who they can safely buy from. We have numerous quality sellers who post right here.

I also agree with jc888888888 that MCC sellers are better off offering a no quibble 14 day refund policy. I've bought dozens of coins from certain sellers who post on this forum. NEVER had to send a single coin back because they were HONEST but know if I wanted to send one back they would take it back. EVERYONE should boycott the dishonest sellers.

[AllSong]

I have mentioned "The London Coin Company" in two precious posts. Here is a quote from an email from him/them.

Quote
"Hi You have received a PR69 DCAM as designated by PCGS which is what you have received. If they are saying the coin is a PR69 DCAM this is what it is sold as and what you bid on. If you are now saying you do not want the coin please send the coin back and we will refund the price of the item as near enough every coin you have purchased from us you seem to have an issue with and think its better for both of us to send the coin back and refrain from bidding for the future as we do not grade the coins PCGS does and think you should take these issues up with them as we are honest sellers and go based on PCGS designations and if they make a mistake or feel a coin is worthy of a PR designation then we accept what they do as they are the professional Grading company not you or us. With best wishes The London Coin Company"

Taken from here http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=1115.1035
& the reason I started the following thread http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=9886.0

[thelondoncoincompany]

As mentioned to this buyer who no one would want as a customer, every coin this buyer bought from us he complained about silly things sniffing for something for nothing and we had said if unhappy please send the coin back and we would refund the price and to take his business elsewhere as we only deal with buyers who are reasonable and not ones you know you can never make happy and want something for nothing which this buyer clearly was.
Interesting how his side of the story is very one sided.
As we are an authorised dealer for PCGS in the UK we grade 1,000s of coins at a time and use stock photos and if a coin has spots it will mention this in the description to make buyers aware of this and we did not sell the coin as an error it was started at £0.01p with a clear picture of the which PCGS has designated as PR69 and if a buyer is unhappy with a PCGS Grade or Prefix they should contact PCGS directly as we base our information on what they provide.

Also for the company saying unreasonable things about us, this company says the same about all coin dealers in the UK and would recommend reading this article and making your own judgement who was also kicked out of the BNTA and Royal Mint refusing to do business with them.

http://lawrencechardexposed.com/

We are International specialists in PCGS Graded coins and as long as buyers are reasonable we will also be.

The London Coin Company

[Stevespandas]

As mentioned to this buyer who no one would want as a customer, every coin this buyer bought from us he complained about silly things sniffing for something for nothing and we had said if unhappy please send the coin back and we would refund the price and to take his business elsewhere as we only deal with buyers who are reasonable and not ones you know you can never make happy and want something for nothing which this buyer clearly was.
Interesting how his side of the story is very one sided.
As we are an authorised dealer for PCGS in the UK we grade 1,000s of coins at a time and use stock photos and if a coin has spots it will mention this in the description to make buyers aware of this and we did not sell the coin as an error it was started at £0.01p with a clear picture of the which PCGS has designated as PR69 and if a buyer is unhappy with a PCGS Grade or Prefix they should contact PCGS directly as we base our information on what they provide.

Also for the company saying unreasonable things about us, this company says the same about all coin dealers in the UK and would recommend reading this article and making your own judgement who was also kicked out of the BNTA and Royal Mint refusing to do business with them.

http://lawrencechardexposed.com/

We are International specialists in PCGS Graded coins and as long as buyers are reasonable we will also be.

The London Coin Company

How is it you end up with so many milk spots on your coins?
1, Is it your poor storage?
2, pcgs do a poor job slabbing?
3, you get 'seconds' from them?

Surely 50 ish customers that have had feedback removed can't all be wrong

[NBM]

this seller still owes me money.

 

When the owner of what is likely one of the largest & extensive collections of MCC in the world says this I would consider The London Coin Company as disreputable until wg says otherwise.

[r3globe]

As mentioned to this buyer who no one would want as a customer, every coin this buyer bought from us he complained about silly things sniffing for something for nothing and we had said if unhappy please send the coin back and we would refund the price and to take his business elsewhere as we only deal with buyers who are reasonable and not ones you know you can never make happy and want something for nothing which this buyer clearly was.
Interesting how his side of the story is very one sided.
As we are an authorised dealer for PCGS in the UK we grade 1,000s of coins at a time and use stock photos and if a coin has spots it will mention this in the description to make buyers aware of this and we did not sell the coin as an error it was started at £0.01p with a clear picture of the which PCGS has designated as PR69 and if a buyer is unhappy with a PCGS Grade or Prefix they should contact PCGS directly as we base our information on what they provide.

Also for the company saying unreasonable things about us, this company says the same about all coin dealers in the UK and would recommend reading this article and making your own judgement who was also kicked out of the BNTA and Royal Mint refusing to do business with them.

http://lawrencechardexposed.com/

We are International specialists in PCGS Graded coins and as long as buyers are reasonable we will also be.

The London Coin Company

I do not find your response satisfactory! There seems to be a pattern.

[thelondoncoincompany]

How is it you end up with so many milk spots on your coins?
1, Is it your poor storage?
2, pcgs do a poor job slabbing?
3, you get 'seconds' from them?

Surely 50 ish customers that have had feedback removed can't all be wrong

First of all we grade 1,000's of coins with PCGS directly and 90% of the time they are newly minted coins sent from either the Royal Mint or Distributors in the US and Europe.
Since about 2010-2011 newly minted coins seem to have an issue with spotting which only shows itself once a coin has been slabbed, the reason for this is the Mints are not washing the chemicals off the coins properly and shows itself by spotting once the coin has been slabbed and the air starved from the slabb.
If a coin has spotting we always mention this in the description and is not our fault buyers do not bother to read the description and then blame us when they receive a coin with spots.
We have been trading on Ebay for 11 years and pride ourselves on good customer service and dealing with issues as long as the buyer is reasonable.
We do not buy seconds as we grade the coins ourselves.
For example we graded 200 x 2013 Britannia £2 Silver Proofs sent from the Royal Mint straight to PCGS and by the time they came back to us all the coins had spots some worse than others, which shows you the quality of the coins being struck by certain Mints.
Same with China Silver Pandas, 2010, 2011 and 2012 were all very bad years for spotting on Pandas but 2013 and 2014 we have had no problems at all, so looks like the Mint has sorted the issue out.
We use PCGS rather than NGC as we prefer PCGS and their grading is more stricter than NGC as we see MS70's and PF70's in NGC and you can see marks the same for 69's and they call a badly struck coin an error.

The London Coin Company

[Contrapunctus]

First of all we grade 1,000's of coins with PCGS directly and 90% of the time they are newly minted coins sent from either the Royal Mint or Distributors in the US and Europe.
Since about 2010-2011 newly minted coins seem to have an issue with spotting which only shows itself once a coin has been slabbed, the reason for this is the Mints are not washing the chemicals off the coins properly and shows itself by spotting once the coin has been slabbed and the air starved from the slabb.
If a coin has spotting we always mention this in the description and is not our fault buyers do not bother to read the description and then blame us when they receive a coin with spots.
We have been trading on Ebay for 11 years and pride ourselves on good customer service and dealing with issues as long as the buyer is reasonable.
We do not buy seconds as we grade the coins ourselves.
For example we graded 200 x 2013 Britannia £2 Silver Proofs sent from the Royal Mint straight to PCGS and by the time they came back to us all the coins had spots some worse than others, which shows you the quality of the coins being struck by certain Mints.
Same with China Silver Pandas, 2010, 2011 and 2012 were all very bad years for spotting on Pandas but 2013 and 2014 we have had no problems at all, so looks like the Mint has sorted the issue out.
We use PCGS rather than NGC as we prefer PCGS and their grading is more stricter than NGC as we see MS70's and PF70's in NGC and you can see marks the same for 69's and they call a badly struck coin an error.

The London Coin Company

This should teach all coin collectors 2 lessons:

#1 - Even perfect 70 numeric grade doesn't mean coin is 100% perfect and free from imperfections.

#2 - If you want perfection, you should choose another hobby since genuine silver and gold coins will tone/tarnish over time, same as humans ageing over time. Numismatics is not suitable as a hobby for perfectionists.

[AllSong]

Thelondoncoincompany

use stock photos and if a coin has spots it will mention this in the description to make buyers aware of this If a coin has spotting we always mention this in the description and is not our fault buyers do not bother to read the description and then blame us when they receive a coin with spots.

That was just not the case, no matter how many times it is said.

As mentioned to this buyer who no one would want as a customer, every coin this buyer bought from us he complained about silly things sniffing for something for nothing and we had said if unhappy please send the coin back and we would refund the price and to take his business elsewhere as we only deal with buyers who are reasonable and not ones you know you can never make happy and want something for nothing which this buyer clearly was.

You have some nerve, coming here saying no one wants me as a customer! If you had your things in order (and actually were specialist in coins and not only in getting them mass graded), I wouldn´t have had any complaints. Fortunately, I´ve found better places to purchase my coins and they seem quite satisfied with me as customer. 

[thelondoncoincompany]

We are pleased to hear you have found yourself another source to buy your coins and we hope for their sake you are reasonable with them.

The London Coin Company