Author Topic: Is this the 2013 Wutai silver medal original mint packaging????  (Read 23207 times)

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Offline mmissinglink

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Re: Is this the 2013 Wutai silver medal original mint packaging????
« Reply #45 on: April 26, 2014, 09:45:23 AM »
Good insight and comments poconopenn and Birdman.

How much volume in the market for Chinese medals comes from foreign (non-Chinese) buyers? How does this compare to the volume of the foreign (non-Chinese) market for Chinese coins?

This may be an important factor in the question of how the value of Chinese coins and medals will appreciate in the years to come.

Offline SANDAC

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Re: Is this the 2013 Wutai silver medal original mint packaging????
« Reply #46 on: April 26, 2014, 06:35:14 PM »
What is the "Current buyback 2013 gold panda program"?  I assumed that the reason 2013 pandas have a low premium is because they have such a much high mintage, but is there an additional incentive or discount for 2013 that a 2011 or 2012 (also high mintages) don't have?
This the link provided by fwang2450 regarding gold panda buyback program:
http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=5665.msg59869#msg59869

The program is not working at this point, but I believe it is an important story.  Reading between the lines I believe there is a long-standing desire on the part of People's bank of china to treat gold panda as the investment bullion and encourage Chinese citizens to own gold in the form of panda.  Toward that end, the marked up price of gold panda purchase is minimal, the capital gain tax is removed (http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=8087.0), and there is a buyback program in place.

fwang2450 has translated an article by Hu Fuqing in 2006, http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=8001.msg46946#msg46946
toward the end of this long article Hu described some of obstacles (in year 2006) facing gold panda as an investment vehicle:  One is the 17% VAT and the other is the lack of buyback channel.  Both obstacles are removed in 2013.  IMO, these are slow-moving but important developments in the on-going gold ownership policy by Chinese citizens and government.

Offline fwang2450

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Re: Is this the 2013 Wutai silver medal original mint packaging????
« Reply #47 on: April 26, 2014, 06:35:54 PM »

By the way, I do agree this Wutai medal is well-design by a well-known artist. The question is related to the fair value of this medal. Does this medal worth 4X of silver value? IMO, the answer is a definitely negative, since the current average value of semi-key date gold pandas is about 2.5 x of gold value. For $160, you can buy 1990-1994 1/20 oz. gold panda in OMP or 1992/1993 1 oz. silver panda.  In addition, I also believe that 20 Yuan, 2 oz. Wutai silver coin is overvalued at $400. For $400, flower lunar silver coin which has a mintage of 6,800 is a much better choice.
 
This MCC bear market is not over yet, especially the People's Bank of China is trying very hard to encourage collectors/investors to buy post-2000 gold pandas by removing the VAT for those coins. The current buyback 2013 gold panda program further induces the collectors/investors to buy 2013 and 2014 gold pandas. This will dry up the financial resource of collector/investor for other coins.  For collector, this may be the opportunity to pick up some hard to find coins in a reasonable cost. For investor, do your research, be patient and buy selectively.
Thanks for your comments, poconopenn. I really appreciate this exchange of views. In my opinion, comparing commemorative/artistic medals, especially large size medals, with bullion pandas may not give the right estimate of their valuation. Panda coins from the very beginning were meant for bullion coins. High premium over the metal cost is unexpected. Even now, collectors in China are complaining about the high premium of panda coin new issues. The price of panda coins is expected to follow the movement of spot prices of gold and silver. Although some early panda coins or rare varieties have broken out of this pattern, the general trend still holds. They are tied down to the spot prices, at a premium, though. Not long ago, a post on jibi.net discussed this dilemma of panda coins in terms of market positioning: http://bbs.jibi.net/dispbbs.asp?boardid=70&Id=257563&page=5

If we move beyond bullion coins, talking about X over the spot price does not make sense anymore. Who would care about the premium of copper-nickel coins, or brass/bronze medals, over the material cost? At the extreme end, we have stamps and paper banknotes, the material cost of which is negligible. For numismatic/commemorative/artistic coins and medals, the numismatic/commemorative/artistic value plays an important role in determining the premium, no matter how many times it is over the material cost. In this light, the non-key or semi-key panda coins will always be bound by the spot price, but the cap of commemorative/artistic medals will depend on other factors than the spot price.

Here are some interesting posts on valuation and pricing of large bronze medals for your reference, in Chinese:

http://bbs.bqcoin.com/read-htm-tid-4414.html
http://bbs.bqcoin.com/read-htm-tid-4415.html
http://bbs.bqcoin.com/read-htm-tid-4416.html

barsenault

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Re: Is this the 2013 Wutai silver medal original mint packaging????
« Reply #48 on: April 26, 2014, 06:40:37 PM »
Thanks for your comments, poconopenn. I really appreciate this exchange of views. In my opinion, comparing commemorative/artistic medals, especially large size medals, with bullion pandas may not give the right estimate of their valuation. Panda coins from the very beginning were meant for bullion coins. High premium over the metal cost is unexpected. Even now, collectors in China are complaining about the high premium of panda coin new issues. The price of panda coins is expected to follow the movement of spot prices of gold and silver. Although some early panda coins or rare varieties have broken out of this pattern, the general trend still holds. They are tied down to the spot prices, at a premium, though. Not long ago, a post on jibi.net discussed this dilemma of panda coins in terms of market positioning: http://bbs.jibi.net/dispbbs.asp?boardid=70&Id=257563&page=5

If we move beyond bullion coins, talking about X over the spot price does not make sense anymore. Who would care about the premium of copper-nickel coins, or brass/bronze medals, over the material cost? At the extreme end, we have stamps and paper banknotes, the material cost of which is negligible. For numismatic/commemorative/artistic coins and medals, the numismatic/commemorative/artistic value plays an important role in determining the premium, no matter how many times it is over the material cost. In this light, the non-key or semi-key panda coins will always be bound by the spot price, but the cap of commemorative/artistic medals will depend on other factors than the spot price.

Here are some interesting posts on valuation and pricing of large bronze medals for your reference, in Chinese:

http://bbs.bqcoin.com/read-htm-tid-4414.html
http://bbs.bqcoin.com/read-htm-tid-4415.html
http://bbs.bqcoin.com/read-htm-tid-4416.html


Damn, I need to learn chinese.  LOL

Offline poconopenn

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Re: Is this the 2013 Wutai silver medal original mint packaging????
« Reply #49 on: April 26, 2014, 11:04:54 PM »

Here are some interesting posts on valuation and pricing of large bronze medals for your reference, in Chinese:

http://bbs.bqcoin.com/read-htm-tid-4414.html
http://bbs.bqcoin.com/read-htm-tid-4415.html
http://bbs.bqcoin.com/read-htm-tid-4416.html


I do collect large size copper/brass medals very selectively for their artistic value and design. Again, this is a very different class and they are not made by China Mint. Two books as attached are must have before for anyone to start to collect those medals.

Offline poconopenn

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Re: Is this the 2013 Wutai silver medal original mint packaging????
« Reply #50 on: April 26, 2014, 11:11:46 PM »
The buyback program actually started in 2003 for 2001-D gold panda. It did not work out due to the complication of VAT. After the removal of VAT for post-2000 gold pandas in 2012, China Gold Coin Inc. decided to try again. In September 2013, a pilot program was initiated at three retail stores of China Gold Coin Inc. located at Beijing, Shanghai and Shenzhen respectively for gold pandas issued after 2013, since its mintage is very high and the value is close to bullion. Eventually, if the pilot program work out, it will expand to the banks and other retail stores associated to China Gold Coin Inc.

Chinese have the tradition to hold gold bar or sycee. It is logical for People’s Bank of China to try to make gold trading as transparent as possible. Unlike gold bar and sycee, the gold panda has a precise weight and issued by government. The general public will fell safe to buy gold panda as investment vehicle without any concern of liquidation problem later with this buyback program.  The buyback price is based on the price at Shanghai Gold Exchange at the time of buyback. 

Offline mmissinglink

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Re: Is this the 2013 Wutai silver medal original mint packaging????
« Reply #51 on: April 27, 2014, 12:14:22 AM »
Pocono, I don't suppose those books are available in an English translated version, are they?

Just like Barsenault, I feel woefully inadequate in getting deeper understanding because some of the important writing on this subject is in Chinese....understandably of course.

Also, I'm curious to know is there is some internet source (in English preferably) which makes regularly updated lists of newly released  Chinese medals? I am a fan of medals.

The reason I ask is because if it weren't for a person in a different forum mentioning the Wutai silver medal and if it weren't for me logging into that forum regularly, I probably would never have learned of this medal. And it was by sheer luck that I learned about another Chinese medal that I want to buy soon. So, instead of learning of new medals by luck, I want to know if there is a source which focuses on medals which gives updates on newly released medals.

barsenault

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Re: Is this the 2013 Wutai silver medal original mint packaging????
« Reply #52 on: April 27, 2014, 08:06:15 AM »
Hey poconopen, the brass medals on the front of that book are amazing.  I can see why this type of collecting is in a different category.  It truly is like buying a painting, which can appreciate in value over time.  You're appreciating the artistic work of the designer or 'painter.'  Very impressive.  I was tempted to buy the brass panda insurrrance medal, but decided against it, since it wasn't done by an 'official mint.'  What are your thoughts about that medal? http://www.ebay.com/itm/China-2012-Brass-Medal-30th-Anniversary-of-Issurance-of-China-Panda-Gold-Coins-/151250801957?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2337401525

Offline wg

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Re: Is this the 2013 Wutai silver medal original mint packaging????
« Reply #53 on: April 27, 2014, 10:10:48 AM »


Offline mmissinglink

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Re: Is this the 2013 Wutai silver medal original mint packaging????
« Reply #55 on: April 27, 2014, 11:07:04 AM »
^  Right, they can't both be the OGP because one is in a baggie inside a plastic pouch and the other isn't.

Offline poconopenn

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Re: Is this the 2013 Wutai silver medal original mint packaging????
« Reply #56 on: April 27, 2014, 11:51:52 PM »
The sealing pattern of  pouch with bag inside in wg's picture is not Shenyang Mint. It is resealed by somebody.

Offline poconopenn

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Re: Is this the 2013 Wutai silver medal original mint packaging????
« Reply #57 on: April 28, 2014, 12:11:04 AM »
Pocono, I don't suppose those books are available in an English translated version, are they?

Just like Barsenault, I feel woefully inadequate in getting deeper understanding because some of the important writing on this subject is in Chinese....understandably of course.

Also, I'm curious to know is there is some internet source (in English preferably) which makes regularly updated lists of newly released  Chinese medals? I am a fan of medals.

The reason I ask is because if it weren't for a person in a different forum mentioning the Wutai silver medal and if it weren't for me logging into that forum regularly, I probably would never have learned of this medal. And it was by sheer luck that I learned about another Chinese medal that I want to buy soon. So, instead of learning of new medals by luck, I want to know if there is a source which focuses on medals which gives updates on newly released medals.

Sorry, there is no English website to discuss Chines medal, except CCF.

Here is the website of Shanghai Mint. The page shows pictures of medals issued recently.

http://www.shmintjp.com/

Here is website of Shenyang Mint. The page show pictures of products issued recently.

http://www.sy-mint.com/Product.asp



barsenault

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Re: Is this the 2013 Wutai silver medal original mint packaging????
« Reply #58 on: April 28, 2014, 06:22:25 AM »
The sealing pattern of  pouch with bag inside in wg's picture is not Shenyang Mint. It is resealed by somebody.

Dang.  I got the one with a bag from Lucky.  Bummer.  Better not be a fake. Why would someone put a bag inside? Strange.  You think the one with a bag is fake?

barsenault

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Re: Is this the 2013 Wutai silver medal original mint packaging????
« Reply #59 on: April 28, 2014, 06:25:06 AM »
Sorry, there is no English website to discuss Chines medal, except CCF.

Here is the website of Shanghai Mint. The page shows pictures of medals issued recently.

http://www.shmintjp.com/

Here is website of Shenyang Mint. The page show pictures of products issued recently.

http://www.sy-mint.com/Product.asp



wow, there are some nice medals.  as someone said, it seems as though there are unlimited amount, and unless you are doing this as a collector of art, it's best to stay away as an investor.  How does one know which to get or which to stay away from as an investor.  Too many to know the difference.  I have to say, the way the chinese can put such intricate detail on a piece of medal is quite astounding and impressive.  It is simply delicious.  :-)  
« Last Edit: April 28, 2014, 06:51:05 AM by barsenault »