Author Topic: Is this the 2013 Wutai silver medal original mint packaging????  (Read 25819 times)

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barsenault

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Re: Is this the 2013 Wutai silver medal original mint packaging????
« Reply #30 on: April 23, 2014, 11:23:40 PM »
I'm just explained the relationship between Shenyang Mint ,Shenyang spring silver industrial company and CCTV.
My conclusion is to say, the medal has no direct relation with CCTV

perfect.  thank you so much.  not that it mattered much to me, as I love the medal, but appreciate you confirming.  have a great day



Offline poconopenn

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Re: Is this the 2013 Wutai silver medal original mint packaging????
« Reply #31 on: April 24, 2014, 12:39:35 AM »
The back page of the COA shows that Shenyang Mint is a partner of the cctv.com advertising program. It runs ads on CCTV.com. If you are not sure how the program works, please see the following links:

http://home.gz.soufun.com/news/2013-04-22/9956671.htm
http://www.dearland.com.cn/Article/jiemengyangshiwangdi_1.html

It is likely that this logo is printed on all COA's from Shenyang Mint. Our dealer friends can verify or falsify.

Thanks for the link. I know that CCTV is powerful, but have never expected to be in the business of providing the ”seal of approval” for commercial products.

This medal was minted by Shenyang Mint,and total sold by Shenyang spring silver industrial company.In the middle of the COA on the left side ,It is the mark of Shenyang spring silver industrial company.
Shenyang spring Silver Industrial Company under the Shenyang Mint Co Ltd, its predecessor for the Shenyang Mint Industrial Company, is the Shenyang Mint limited self economic entity with independent legal person qualification, the company enjoys "the exclusive right to use the Shenyang Mint Co Ltd" trademark and brand
The relationship of them is similar to Shanghai Mint and Shanghai Shen Quan Industrial Co., Ltd.
Because Shenyang spring silver industrial corporation is advertising partners of CCTV.so the mark of CCTV appears in the top of the COA on the left side.
In China, CCTV is so famous,with CCTV on a relationship is to enhance the visibility of a shortcut,So no one will give up such a chance,so the mark of CCTV appears......
That is all the reasons


It is my understanding that Shenyang Spring Silver Industrial Co. (沈阳泉银实业总公司) is a contract manufacturer of Shenyang Mint Co., Ltd. for gold, silver and copper medals. The company has its own production facility and quality control. I believe that NGC in its website refers those contract manufacturers as private mints. Most medals issued recently and  discussed in this forum were made by those contract manufacturers. There is quality control problem.

Offline ggoodluck2013

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Re: Is this the 2013 Wutai silver medal original mint packaging????
« Reply #32 on: April 24, 2014, 01:11:26 AM »
Thanks for the link. I know that CCTV is powerful, but have never expected to be in the business of providing the ”seal of approval” for commercial products.

It is my understanding that Shenyang Spring Silver Industrial Co. (沈阳泉银实业总公司) is a contract manufacturer of Shenyang Mint Co., Ltd. for gold, silver and copper medals. The company has its own production facility and quality control. I believe that NGC in its website refers those contract manufacturers as private mints. Most medals issued recently and  discussed in this forum were made by those contract manufacturers. There is quality control problem.
Not a contrcat manufactureer,just a subsidiary of Shenyang Mint Co., Ltd.In fact,there are two subsidiary of Shenyang Mint Co., Ltd.They are Shenyang Spring Silver Industrial Co.and Shenyang Zhongchao Securities printing company(All the COA from Shenyang Mint are printed by Shenyang Zhongchao Securities printing company) .These two companies play an important role in the Shenyang Mint production.They are an important part of the Shenyang Mint.
So NGC will label it as official mint,not  private mint.






Offline fwang2450

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Re: Is this the 2013 Wutai silver medal original mint packaging????
« Reply #33 on: April 24, 2014, 01:27:33 AM »

It is my understanding that Shenyang Spring Silver Industrial Co. (沈阳泉银实业总公司) is a contract manufacturer of Shenyang Mint Co., Ltd. for gold, silver and copper medals. The company has its own production facility and quality control. I believe that NGC in its website refers those contract manufacturers as private mints. Most medals issued recently and  discussed in this forum were made by those contract manufacturers. There is quality control problem.
I am not sure about Shenyang Mint, but Shanghai Mint has been producing brass and bronze medals offsite, in another facility, or satellite site. But that site is not a contract manufacturer. It is part of Shanghai Mint, called 二分厂 or Branch Factory Number 2. It does have its own production facilities and QC processes, but then the precious metal coins/medals produced on the main site also have their own production facilities and QC processes, different from those of circulating coins, which are their main business. All these have had their own share of quality problems, as witnessed in the Lucky Panda, or first panda expo panda.

Offline poconopenn

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Re: Is this the 2013 Wutai silver medal original mint packaging????
« Reply #34 on: April 24, 2014, 11:17:49 PM »
Yes, Shenyang Silver Spring Industrial Co., Ltd. and Shanghai Shen Quan Industrial Co., Ltd. are the subsidiary of Shenyang and Shanghai Mint respectively.  They are the division doing contract manufacturing of gold, silver and copper medals for their respective Mint and have their own production facilities and distribution channels. The medals made by these two subsidiary can be marketed as Mint brand or their own brand, depending on the requirement of contract originator. Both companies produce more than 100 products annually, not just medal but also gold and silver bar, sycee, etc. The quality, based on the recent issued show medals, may not be as good as medals made by Mint in the earlier years.

Medal collection is an advanced numismatic field and has a small collector base. It is also safer for counterfeiter to copy. Usually, the valuation of medal takes long time to appreciate. For collectors, as long as enjoy the design and have fun, it is fine. For investor/speculator, IMO, medal is not a right investment. For example, current valuation of 2013 20 Yuan 2 oz. Wutai silver coin with a planned mintage of 100,000 is about $400 while 80 gm silver Wutai medal with a planned mintage of 3,000 is about $160.

barsenault

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Re: Is this the 2013 Wutai silver medal original mint packaging????
« Reply #35 on: April 24, 2014, 11:33:01 PM »
Yes, Shenyang Silver Spring Industrial Co., Ltd. and Shanghai Shen Quan Industrial Co., Ltd. are the subsidiary of Shenyang and Shanghai Mint respectively.  They are the division doing contract manufacturing of gold, silver and copper medals for their respective Mint and have their own production facilities and distribution channels. The medals made by these two subsidiary can be marketed as Mint brand or their own brand, depending on the requirement of contract originator. Both companies produce more than 100 products annually, not just medal but also gold and silver bar, sycee, etc. The quality, based on the recent issued show medals, may not be as good as medals made by Mint in the earlier years.

Medal collection is an advanced numismatic field and has a small collector base. It is also safer for counterfeiter to copy. Usually, the valuation of medal takes long time to appreciate. For collectors, as long as enjoy the design and have fun, it is fine. For investor/speculator, IMO, medal is not a right investment. For example, current valuation of 2013 20 Yuan 2 oz. Wutai silver coin with a planned mintage of 100,000 is about $400 while 80 gm silver Wutai medal with a planned mintage of 3,000 is about $160.

[/quote

I believe the planned mintage for the Wutai is 999, and you can't find it for 160.00 on eBay, try 220.00
China 2013 80 Grams Silver Medal - Wutai from Shenyang Mint
Purity: 99.9% Silver
Weight: 80 Grams
Diameter: 45 mm
Mintage: 999
Condition: Uncirculated and placed in original pouch. Mint double sealed. With C.O.A. and box. No scratches, No marks, No oxidation spots.

Offline poconopenn

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Re: Is this the 2013 Wutai silver medal original mint packaging????
« Reply #36 on: April 24, 2014, 11:59:39 PM »
Yes, you are correct. The mintage of silver medal is 999. The 3000 mintage is for copper medal.

The price  for this medal is about $160 inside China.

http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?spm=a230r.1.14.336.ij8Z3D&id=36648183985

http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?spm=a230r.1.14.34.ij8Z3D&id=36927552295


Offline fwang2450

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Re: Is this the 2013 Wutai silver medal original mint packaging????
« Reply #37 on: April 25, 2014, 01:50:08 AM »
Medal collection is an advanced numismatic field and has a small collector base. It is also safer for counterfeiter to copy. Usually, the valuation of medal takes long time to appreciate. For collectors, as long as enjoy the design and have fun, it is fine. For investor/speculator, IMO, medal is not a right investment. For example, current valuation of 2013 20 Yuan 2 oz. Wutai silver coin with a planned mintage of 100,000 is about $400 while 80 gm silver Wutai medal with a planned mintage of 3,000 is about $160.

I am not against your view that medals appreciate more slowly than coins. This happened in the past. But your particular example of the Wutai coin vs. medal is kind of simplistic. The Wutai coin was issued in May, 2012, while the Wutai medal was released in Dec., 2014. Their current prices do not reflect price appreciation during the same period of time. If any comparison can be drawn, the Putuo medal issued in June, 2013 is the closest, although it was still more than a year later than the Wutai coin. Still, during the past year, the Putuo medal rose from 1000 yuan to 1500 yuan, a 50% increase. On the other hand, the Wutai 2 oz silver coin had the release price of 1850 yuan. In two years, it appreciated by 600 yuan (using your number), an approximately 30% rise. 50% in one year (medal) vs. 30% in two years (coin). It is not an argument against medals.

In fact the 45mm Putuo bronze medal rose from 138 yuan to about 400 yuan in one year. Almost a 300% increase.

Actually more people are collecting medals in China, including silver or brass or bronze medals. The Garden series has been pretty popular, although commissioned by some collectors. The Sacred Buddhist Lands, starting with Putuo, is promising, too. Whether this reflects a general trend among existing collectors, or whether it is driven by new collectors who do not make a distinction between coins and medals, is hard to tell at this moment. I myself have started on medals with no consideration of investment return.

Offline mmissinglink

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Re: Is this the 2013 Wutai silver medal original mint packaging????
« Reply #38 on: April 25, 2014, 11:56:35 AM »
This is really a great conversation by all the members here sharing their views. Thank you to all of you...I have learned a lot from just this thread.

One question I have is:  Is the Shanghai Mint coins equal to the US Mint coins? In other words, is the Shanghai Mint the official coin currency producing mint in China?

What would be the U.S. equivalent of the Shenyang Mint or the Shanghai New Century Mint?

Thanks for helping me understand the status of these Chinese Mints.

Also, is there a list or can one of you make a list of the most prestigious Mints in China and put them into categories or rankings of how important they are to Chinese medal collectors.

Thank you.

Offline ggoodluck2013

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Re: Is this the 2013 Wutai silver medal original mint packaging????
« Reply #39 on: April 25, 2014, 01:03:27 PM »
This is really a great conversation by all the members here sharing their views. Thank you to all of you...I have learned a lot from just this thread.

One question I have is:  Is the Shanghai Mint coins equal to the US Mint coins? In other words, is the Shanghai Mint the official coin currency producing mint in China?

What would be the U.S. equivalent of the Shenyang Mint or the Shanghai New Century Mint?

Thanks for helping me understand the status of these Chinese Mints.

Also, is there a list or can one of you make a list of the most prestigious Mints in China and put them into categories or rankings of how important they are to Chinese medal collectors.

Thank you.
In simple terms, in China, at the highest leadership position in the financial field is the people's Bank of China, China banknote printing and Minting Corporation and China Gold Coin Corporation are the people's Bank of China's affiliated enterprises. China banknote printing and Minting Corporation subordinate: Shanghai mint, Shenyang mint and Nanjing mint. China Gold Coin Corporation subordinate: Shenzhen Guobao Mint
At NGC,  Shanghai mint,  Shenyang mint and Shenzhen Guobao Mint are defined as the official mint(but in fact,Nanjing mint is also an official mint,maybe one day in the future,NGC will define it as official mint),the others,such as Shanghai New Century Mint,NGC define it as private mint.

Offline mmissinglink

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Re: Is this the 2013 Wutai silver medal original mint packaging????
« Reply #40 on: April 25, 2014, 07:48:36 PM »
Thank you ggoodluck! I sent you a private message early this morning...did you see it?

barsenault

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Re: Is this the 2013 Wutai silver medal original mint packaging????
« Reply #41 on: April 25, 2014, 10:26:49 PM »
just thought I'd share the Wutai medal video.  It's hard to fully appreciate under the sealed packaging, but beautiful nevertheless. http://youtu.be/kT7EqX5IToE

Offline mmissinglink

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Re: Is this the 2013 Wutai silver medal original mint packaging????
« Reply #42 on: April 26, 2014, 12:00:05 AM »
Even under the double pouch, it's obvious that this is a remarkable medal. The sculptor ought to be awarded high recognition and praise for this design.

Offline poconopenn

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Re: Is this the 2013 Wutai silver medal original mint packaging????
« Reply #43 on: April 26, 2014, 12:35:46 AM »
I am not against your view that medals appreciate more slowly than coins. This happened in the past. But your particular example of the Wutai coin vs. medal is kind of simplistic. The Wutai coin was issued in May, 2012, while the Wutai medal was released in Dec., 2014. Their current prices do not reflect price appreciation during the same period of time. If any comparison can be drawn, the Putuo medal issued in June, 2013 is the closest, although it was still more than a year later than the Wutai coin. Still, during the past year, the Putuo medal rose from 1000 yuan to 1500 yuan, a 50% increase. On the other hand, the Wutai 2 oz silver coin had the release price of 1850 yuan. In two years, it appreciated by 600 yuan (using your number), an approximately 30% rise. 50% in one year (medal) vs. 30% in two years (coin). It is not an argument against medals.

In fact the 45mm Putuo bronze medal rose from 138 yuan to about 400 yuan in one year. Almost a 300% increase.

Actually more people are collecting medals in China, including silver or brass or bronze medals. The Garden series has been pretty popular, although commissioned by some collectors. The Sacred Buddhist Lands, starting with Putuo, is promising, too. Whether this reflects a general trend among existing collectors, or whether it is driven by new collectors who do not make a distinction between coins and medals, is hard to tell at this moment. I myself have started on medals with no consideration of investment return.

Let me say in a different way. Assuming the mintage of Wutai 20 Yuan 2 oz. silver coin is 999, most likely, the current value of this coin will be in four figure and the first digit may not be 1.
 
The combined medals issued by Shanghai, Shenyang and Shenzhen mints are more than 100/year during the last few years. If each medal has a mintage of 1,000, the total number of medals will be more than 100,000/year.  In pre-1990 years, the total number of medals issued by China Mint/year were several thousand and majority had the approval of the People’s Bank of China. Clearly, the medals issued at earlier years are different class from the recent issued medals. The collector base in China simply can not absorb such large quantity medals in the market place. If China Mint continues to produce such large quantity of coin/medal, the MCC market simply can not be sustained in an average rate of appreciation similar to the last five years, especially for post-2010 coins/medals.
 
By the way, I do agree this Wutai medal is well-design by a well-known artist. The question is related to the fair value of this medal. Does this medal worth 4X of silver value? IMO, the answer is a definitely negative, since the current average value of semi-key date gold pandas is about 2.5 x of gold value. For $160, you can buy 1990-1994 1/20 oz. gold panda in OMP or 1992/1993 1 oz. silver panda.  In addition, I also believe that 20 Yuan, 2 oz. Wutai silver coin is overvalued at $400. For $400, flower lunar silver coin which has a mintage of 6,800 is a much better choice.
 
This MCC bear market is not over yet, especially the People's Bank of China is trying very hard to encourage collectors/investors to buy post-2000 gold pandas by removing the VAT for those coins. The current buyback 2013 gold panda program further induces the collectors/investors to buy 2013 and 2014 gold pandas. This will dry up the financial resource of collector/investor for other coins.  For collector, this may be the opportunity to pick up some hard to find coins in a reasonable cost. For investor, do your research, be patient and buy selectively.
   
Frank, thank you for the opportunity to have a friendly discussion. I value your opinion highly.


Offline Birdman

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Re: Is this the 2013 Wutai silver medal original mint packaging????
« Reply #44 on: April 26, 2014, 08:35:23 AM »

This MCC bear market is not over yet, especially the People's Bank of China is trying very hard to encourage collectors/investors to buy post-2000 gold pandas by removing the VAT for those coins. The current buyback 2013 gold panda program further induces the collectors/investors to buy 2013 and 2014 gold pandas. This will dry up the financial resource of collector/investor for other coins.  For collector, this may be the opportunity to pick up some hard to find coins in a reasonable cost. For investor, do your research, be patient and buy selectively.

I never fully understood why the VAT was removed for post year 2000.  Why not all gold pandas?  Or why not only post 2010 or some other date?  Depending on the answer to that, we might better understand whether the VAT removal is temporary for post-2000 or might be extended to older dates?  Perhaps there is a link to a previous forum discussion that clarifies this.

What is the "Current buyback 2013 gold panda program"?  I assumed that the reason 2013 pandas have a low premium is because they have such a much high mintage, but is there an additional incentive or discount for 2013 that a 2011 or 2012 (also high mintages) don't have?

Your hypothesis that the financial resources of collector/investors may be currently somewhat focused on the non-VAT post-2000 pandas seems reasonable.  After all, if a person bought a 2014 for bullion value and then his relative bought him Peter Anthony's book and turned him on to panda collecting, he might start collecting post 2000, since there isn't a VAT, and many of the coins are higher mintage and have lower premiums.  Since gold is not cheap, collecting those dates might occupy him and the disposable income from his paycheck for months or years.  A key question seems to be, how many of those people, once they complete their post 2000 collection, get the urge to then channel their disposable income towards the pre-2000 panda dates?  And how long will it take for that shift to pre-2000 to occur?  And will collectors and their money find a new priority before then?  Interesting questions, but I am definitely on the side of being the patient and selective collector/investor.