Author Topic: Is this the 2013 Wutai silver medal original mint packaging????  (Read 24431 times)

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Offline mmissinglink

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I very recently purchased a beautiful China Wutai silver medal from a Chinese dealer on eBay.

The listing description claimed that the medal comes double sealed in the original Shenyang Mint plastic pouch.

I took pictures of the actual medal I received...is this what the original official Mint plastic pouches look like coming directly from the Mint? Would the Mint really use a little folded type of plastic baggie inside a plastic pouch? Or is this not how the medal comes directly from the Mint?

Thanks for any help.


   




Offline Russ 736

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Re: Is this the 2013 Wutai silver medal original mint packaging????
« Reply #1 on: April 20, 2014, 11:58:49 PM »
I am far from being an expert on OMP but I have bought hundreds of coins and medals in OMP. I have never seen any come with the interior container being an oversized Ziploc baggie folded to fit inside the outer sealed pouch. They either came in a plastic capsule and then in the outer sealed pouch or just in the sealed pouch.

Russ

Offline wg

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Re: Is this the 2013 Wutai silver medal original mint packaging????
« Reply #2 on: April 21, 2014, 03:29:26 AM »
 
Quote
The listing description claimed that the medal comes double sealed in the original Shenyang Mint plastic pouch.
sure ... mistake of the "work shop"  :001_tongue:


  
Quote
Details:

Shenyang Mint 2013 four Foshan Manjushri 80g Silver Mountain China medal
Material: sterling silver. Weight: 80g. Release Date: 2013. Issued at: Shenyang Mint. Diameter: 45mm. Circulation: 999
http://www.luckpawnshop.com/shenyang-mint-2013-four-foshan-manjushri-80g-silver-mountain-chi-p-188.html

.

Quote
Hello, sir, please rest assured that I will properly handle this issue, indeed this is my work shop mistakes, please be assured

    
    http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=9736.msg57292#msg57292

Offline mmissinglink

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Re: Is this the 2013 Wutai silver medal original mint packaging????
« Reply #3 on: April 21, 2014, 07:50:50 AM »
I am beginning to get the picture that the seller was very dishonest in his listing description. The fact that a medal is in a sandwich baggie immediately raised suspicion for me but I first wanted to give the seller the benefit of the doubt just in case it is possible that the Mint does this. But I am beginning to feel quite sure now that this is not the way this Mint seals and ships medals. I hate dishonest people.

Offline NBM

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Re: Is this the 2013 Wutai silver medal original mint packaging????
« Reply #4 on: April 21, 2014, 01:10:34 PM »
Looks like you got "Lucky" (luckied?).
Been there, done that.. haven't been back.

Offline fantom

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Re: Is this the 2013 Wutai silver medal original mint packaging????
« Reply #5 on: April 21, 2014, 03:05:00 PM »
 sure ... mistake of the "work shop"

similar to that!

If it's the same seller, then everything is clear! lucklymoney ?

Offline mmissinglink

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Re: Is this the 2013 Wutai silver medal original mint packaging????
« Reply #6 on: April 21, 2014, 04:03:43 PM »
Not lucklymoney...another well known eBay dealer from China. I want to give the opportunity for him to work it out before I post here the seller's eBay name. I don't want to be accused of being unfair.


Offline Mirkkanen

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Re: Is this the 2013 Wutai silver medal original mint packaging????
« Reply #8 on: April 21, 2014, 05:18:40 PM »
Wow, good detective work fwang.  N40

I am glad I did not open my big mouth.  :thumbup:

Offline mmissinglink

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Re: Is this the 2013 Wutai silver medal original mint packaging????
« Reply #9 on: April 21, 2014, 08:08:38 PM »
fwang has again shown why I view him as the go-to-expert in matters of Modern Chinese medals and coins. Thank you fwang.

fwang, since you read Chinese, can you tell if the text in any of the links you provide say something like 'original mint sealed pouch' or anything like this. I have to determine quickly whether or not these zip lock baggies inside the outer plastic pouch are what the Shenyang Mint puts these medals in.

Thank you for helping me determine this.



Offline fwang2450

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Re: Is this the 2013 Wutai silver medal original mint packaging????
« Reply #10 on: April 21, 2014, 08:30:47 PM »
fwang has again shown why I view him as the go-to-expert in matters of Modern Chinese medals and coins. Thank you fwang.

fwang, since you read Chinese, can you tell if the text in any of the links you provide say something like 'original mint sealed pouch' or anything like this. I have to determine quickly whether or not these zip lock baggies inside the outer plastic pouch are what the Shenyang Mint puts these medals in.

Thank you for helping me determine this.



No wording like that. I  will ask some medal dealers in China about the standard packaging of this medal.

Offline mmissinglink

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Re: Is this the 2013 Wutai silver medal original mint packaging????
« Reply #11 on: April 21, 2014, 09:04:55 PM »
Thank you fwang...you are very kind to be so helpful and I appreciate it because I want to make things right as I jumped the gun (figure of speech) and earlier today opened up a case against the seller. I need to close the case a.s.a.p. if this medal is packaged and shipped from the Mint like that...but it is such a bizarre way for a Mint to package a medal that way. If I am wrong, I need to apologize to the seller after closing the case and then I want to make sure to continue to give this seller on eBay my business if it turns out that the medal is shipped that way from the Mint.

Offline fwang2450

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Re: Is this the 2013 Wutai silver medal original mint packaging????
« Reply #12 on: April 21, 2014, 10:29:41 PM »
Thank you fwang...you are very kind to be so helpful and I appreciate it because I want to make things right as I jumped the gun (figure of speech) and earlier today opened up a case against the seller. I need to close the case a.s.a.p. if this medal is packaged and shipped from the Mint like that...but it is such a bizarre way for a Mint to package a medal that way. If I am wrong, I need to apologize to the seller after closing the case and then I want to make sure to continue to give this seller on eBay my business if it turns out that the medal is shipped that way from the Mint.
Two medal dealers in China confirmed that this is the original packaging from Shenyang Mint, the reason being the high relief of the medal, which may rub against a plastic capsule.

barsenault

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Re: Is this the 2013 Wutai silver medal original mint packaging????
« Reply #13 on: April 21, 2014, 10:39:09 PM »
fwang and missing, thanks for the info.  Good to know before I get my 2 medals soon.  Now I won't be surprised. LOL.  Missing is it beautiful?  I can't wait to see it in my hand.  Although that wrapping is quite interesting. But heck, better than the PM issuing Zeus without a capsule.  Beautiful medal!

Offline mmissinglink

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Re: Is this the 2013 Wutai silver medal original mint packaging????
« Reply #14 on: April 21, 2014, 11:15:39 PM »
It is a spectacular looking medal. Not only very high relief, but the design is exceptionally appealing. In my view, the Zeus coin is one of the worst designs I have ever seen. Of course, that's just my opinion but just from a simple anatomical vantage, the Zeus figure is very poorly rendered, very angular and not aesthetically appealing at all to me.

I'm sure you will be pleased. I specifically sought out a seller selling the medal in the original Mint packaging and the eBay seller thincat00 was the only one selling it in the original plastic pouch on eBay that I could find. Yes, I paid more because the medal is being sold in the original plastic pouch and my thinking is that at least I will get a medal that hasn't been already looked over and handled....I prefer virgin coins and medals whenever possible even if I pay a premium for it.

Now I must get back quickly to thincat00 and apologize for making the bad judgement opening up a case with my assumption that the Mint would not use what looks like a sandwich baggie.

In hindsight, I should have just waited for fwang's input in this thread as he has ALWAYS been very thorough in his research. We here on the China-mint forum are lucky to have his unrivaled research skills, his expertise and his experience and knowledge.

Thanks again fwang.

Offline fantom

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Re: Is this the 2013 Wutai silver medal original mint packaging????
« Reply #15 on: April 22, 2014, 01:06:31 AM »
So that the original packaging from the China Mint!?  N24

?

barsenault

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Re: Is this the 2013 Wutai silver medal original mint packaging????
« Reply #16 on: April 22, 2014, 07:19:54 AM »
It is a spectacular looking medal. Not only very high relief, but the design is exceptionally appealing. In my view, the Zeus coin is one of the worst designs I have ever seen. Of course, that's just my opinion but just from a simple anatomical vantage, the Zeus figure is very poorly rendered, very angular and not aesthetically appealing at all to me.

I'm sure you will be pleased. I specifically sought out a seller selling the medal in the original Mint packaging and the eBay seller thincat00 was the only one selling it in the original plastic pouch on eBay that I could find. Yes, I paid more because the medal is being sold in the original plastic pouch and my thinking is that at least I will get a medal that hasn't been already looked over and handled....I prefer virgin coins and medals whenever possible even if I pay a premium for it.

Now I must get back quickly to thincat00 and apologize for making the bad judgement opening up a case with my assumption that the Mint would not use what looks like a sandwich baggie.

In hindsight, I should have just waited for fwang's input in this thread as he has ALWAYS been very thorough in his research. We here on the China-mint forum are lucky to have his unrivaled research skills, his expertise and his experience and knowledge.

Thanks again fwang.

Hey Missing. Great intel.  Thanks again.  I went ahead and asked Thincat for an invoice to order one.  Looks like I'll have to get the other one graded.  Was just about to place the order for the 2nd one thru lucky again, but not now.  I didn't know it didn't have the wrap.  Oh well.  He's been good to me.  I'll just send it in to get graded, and the wrap or no wrap won't matter. LOL.  But you're right, how do I know there isn't finger prints, and oil marks and scratches, or 'ooopsie, dropped to the ground, let me brush it off, no one will know...'  Knowing my luck, all of the above. :-)  Appreciate the heads up sir.  And again thanks for sharing the info.

Offline mmissinglink

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Re: Is this the 2013 Wutai silver medal original mint packaging????
« Reply #17 on: April 22, 2014, 08:42:09 AM »
I can now say that thincat00 is a trustworthy and excellent seller. We finally communicated and he reminded me that the time difference was one of the reasons it took a long time to respond to me. I am putting thincat00 on the top of my list of eBay Chinese medal and coin sellers as he has been very polite even though I wrongly opened up a case against him (which I closed yesterday) because I was too impatient. I explained how to me, honesty is the most important quality I want when I am looking for a seller/dealer overseas. For me, it's worth it even to pay a little extra to get that piece of mind.

Offline ggoodluck2013

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Re: Is this the 2013 Wutai silver medal original mint packaging????
« Reply #18 on: April 22, 2014, 11:54:50 AM »
No problem,It is an original packing.such as the photos following

Offline fwang2450

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Re: Is this the 2013 Wutai silver medal original mint packaging????
« Reply #19 on: April 22, 2014, 12:26:11 PM »
No problem,It is an original packing.such as the photos following
ggoodluck2013 was one of the dealers I consulted yesterday. He has been dealing in Chinese brass, bronze and silver medals for quite a few years.

Offline fwang2450

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Re: Is this the 2013 Wutai silver medal original mint packaging????
« Reply #20 on: April 22, 2014, 12:31:51 PM »
I can now say that thincat00 is a trustworthy and excellent seller. We finally communicated and he reminded me that the time difference was one of the reasons it took a long time to respond to me. I am putting thincat00 on the top of my list of eBay Chinese medal and coin sellers as he has been very polite even though I wrongly opened up a case against him (which I closed yesterday) because I was too impatient. I explained how to me, honesty is the most important quality I want when I am looking for a seller/dealer overseas. For me, it's worth it even to pay a little extra to get that piece of mind.
I am glad this got worked out, and that you are a happy customer. Thanks for your kind words about me, too!

Offline mmissinglink

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Re: Is this the 2013 Wutai silver medal original mint packaging????
« Reply #21 on: April 23, 2014, 12:34:27 AM »
Thank you ggoodluck for sharing those pictures.

Offline mowi

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Re: Is this the 2013 Wutai silver medal original mint packaging????
« Reply #22 on: April 23, 2014, 05:08:22 AM »
...
Thanks again fwang.

+1.

Plastic baggie OMP. :-O

Interesting! There is lots of knowledge in these treads.

Offline poconopenn

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Re: Is this the 2013 Wutai silver medal original mint packaging????
« Reply #23 on: April 23, 2014, 06:11:50 PM »
Here is the link to Shanghai Mint website. The page shows pictures of 51 silver medals issued by Shanghai Mint during last two years.

http://www.shmintjp.com/product/default.aspx?cate=21

Anyone with money can ask China Mint to issue medal as long as the person is willing to pay the production cost plus few percentage points as profit for Mint. The 2013 Wutai silver medal was commissioned by CCTV.com (China Central Television Network) and produced by Shenyang Mint. The privately commissioned medal is not considered as an "official China mint” product which requires the approval of the People's Bank of China. Most Pre-2000 medals are considered as “official China mint” medals. There is significant valuation difference between these two types of medal.

IMO, when CCTV starts to promote medals publically, it may be the start of the end of medal bull market. If you are a collector and like the design of those medals and willing to pay more than 2X of silver value, it is fine. However, if you are an investor/speculator, IMO, this is a very bad investment.
 
Here is another link to another silver medal commissioned by CCTV.com with a very similar design issued recently with a planned mintage of 1,500 and actual mintage of 1,000.

http://shop.jibi.net/dispbbs.asp?boardid=25&ID=104737&replyID=104737

Offline fwang2450

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Re: Is this the 2013 Wutai silver medal original mint packaging????
« Reply #24 on: April 23, 2014, 07:47:54 PM »
Here is the link to Shanghai Mint website. The page shows pictures of 51 silver medals issued by Shanghai Mint during last two years.

http://www.shmintjp.com/product/default.aspx?cate=21

Anyone with money can ask China Mint to issue medal as long as the person is willing to pay the production cost plus few percentage points as profit for Mint. The 2013 Wutai silver medal was commissioned by CCTV.com (China Central Television Network) and produced by Shenyang Mint. The privately commissioned medal is not considered as an "official China mint” product which requires the approval of the People's Bank of China. Most Pre-2000 medals are considered as “official China mint” medals. There is significant valuation difference between these two types of medal.

IMO, when CCTV starts to promote medals publically, it may be the start of the end of medal bull market. If you are a collector and like the design of those medals and willing to pay more than 2X of silver value, it is fine. However, if you are an investor/speculator, IMO, this is a very bad investment.
 
Here is another link to another silver medal commissioned by CCTV.com with a very similar design issued recently with a planned mintage of 1,500 and actual mintage of 1,000.

http://shop.jibi.net/dispbbs.asp?boardid=25&ID=104737&replyID=104737

Thanks for the reminder, poconopenn, but I find your tone on this medal somewhat negative. First, this medal is not to be mixed with the listing you gave at the end of the post. That one commissioned by CCTV was not minted by an official mint, designed by an unknown artist. Second, I have not found any information linking this Wutai medal designed by Liao Bo from Shenyang Mint to CCTV. I will appreciate it if you can provide more info on this. Third, this medal is widely praised among Chinese collectors, like its predecessor the Putuo medals from the same designer, which have already seen significant price appreciation.

I myself give cautious notes when some low mintage medals are found and talked about, especially medals commissioned by companies or individuals. But I do not see any reason to give the warning shot on this one. The theme, the series, the designer and the mint will guarantee its success in popularity, followed by price appreciation.

Disclosure: I do not own the Putuo or Wutai medals.

Here is the picture of the Shenyang Mint designer for this series, Liao  Bo.


Offline poconopenn

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Re: Is this the 2013 Wutai silver medal original mint packaging????
« Reply #25 on: April 23, 2014, 08:21:14 PM »
Here is the picture of COA. It is clearly commissioned by CCTV.com.

Offline fwang2450

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Re: Is this the 2013 Wutai silver medal original mint packaging????
« Reply #26 on: April 23, 2014, 09:10:23 PM »
Here is the picture of COA. It is clearly commissioned by CCTV.com.
The back page of the COA shows that Shenyang Mint is a partner of the cctv.com advertising program. It runs ads on CCTV.com. If you are not sure how the program works, please see the following links:

http://home.gz.soufun.com/news/2013-04-22/9956671.htm
http://www.dearland.com.cn/Article/jiemengyangshiwangdi_1.html

It is likely that this logo is printed on all COA's from Shenyang Mint. Our dealer friends can verify or falsify.

Offline ggoodluck2013

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Re: Is this the 2013 Wutai silver medal original mint packaging????
« Reply #27 on: April 23, 2014, 11:03:44 PM »
This medal was minted by Shenyang Mint,and total sold by Shenyang spring silver industrial company.In the middle of the COA on the left side ,It is the mark of Shenyang spring silver industrial company.
Shenyang spring Silver Industrial Company under the Shenyang Mint Co Ltd, its predecessor for the Shenyang Mint Industrial Company, is the Shenyang Mint limited self economic entity with independent legal person qualification, the company enjoys "the exclusive right to use the Shenyang Mint Co Ltd" trademark and brand
The relationship of them is similar to Shanghai Mint and Shanghai Shen Quan Industrial Co., Ltd.
Because Shenyang spring silver industrial corporation is advertising partners of CCTV.so the mark of CCTV appears in the top of the COA on the left side.
In China, CCTV is so famous,with CCTV on a relationship is to enhance the visibility of a shortcut,So no one will give up such a chance,so the mark of CCTV appears......
That is all the reasons







« Last Edit: April 23, 2014, 11:37:34 PM by ggoodluck2013 »

barsenault

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Re: Is this the 2013 Wutai silver medal original mint packaging????
« Reply #28 on: April 23, 2014, 11:08:09 PM »
This medal was minted by Shenyang Mint,and total sold by Shenyang spring silver industrial company.In the middle of the COA on the left side ,It is the mark of Shenyang spring silver industrial company.
Shenyang spring Silver Industrial Company under the Shenyang Mint Co Ltd, its predecessor for the Shenyang Mint Industrial Company, is the Shenyang Mint limited self economic entity with independent legal person qualification, the company enjoys "the exclusive right to use the Shenyang Mint Co Ltd" trademark and brand
The relationship of them is similar to Shanghai Mint and Shanghai Shen Quan Industrial Co., Ltd.
Because Shenyang spring silver industrial corporation is advertising partners of CCTV.so the mark of CCTV appears in the top of the COA on the left side.

And all this means.....what? Is this good or bad?  LOL.







Offline ggoodluck2013

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Re: Is this the 2013 Wutai silver medal original mint packaging????
« Reply #29 on: April 23, 2014, 11:17:35 PM »

I'm just explained the relationship between Shenyang Mint ,Shenyang spring silver industrial company and CCTV.
My conclusion is to say, the medal has no direct relation with CCTV


barsenault

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Re: Is this the 2013 Wutai silver medal original mint packaging????
« Reply #30 on: April 23, 2014, 11:23:40 PM »
I'm just explained the relationship between Shenyang Mint ,Shenyang spring silver industrial company and CCTV.
My conclusion is to say, the medal has no direct relation with CCTV

perfect.  thank you so much.  not that it mattered much to me, as I love the medal, but appreciate you confirming.  have a great day



Offline poconopenn

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Re: Is this the 2013 Wutai silver medal original mint packaging????
« Reply #31 on: April 24, 2014, 12:39:35 AM »
The back page of the COA shows that Shenyang Mint is a partner of the cctv.com advertising program. It runs ads on CCTV.com. If you are not sure how the program works, please see the following links:

http://home.gz.soufun.com/news/2013-04-22/9956671.htm
http://www.dearland.com.cn/Article/jiemengyangshiwangdi_1.html

It is likely that this logo is printed on all COA's from Shenyang Mint. Our dealer friends can verify or falsify.

Thanks for the link. I know that CCTV is powerful, but have never expected to be in the business of providing the ”seal of approval” for commercial products.

This medal was minted by Shenyang Mint,and total sold by Shenyang spring silver industrial company.In the middle of the COA on the left side ,It is the mark of Shenyang spring silver industrial company.
Shenyang spring Silver Industrial Company under the Shenyang Mint Co Ltd, its predecessor for the Shenyang Mint Industrial Company, is the Shenyang Mint limited self economic entity with independent legal person qualification, the company enjoys "the exclusive right to use the Shenyang Mint Co Ltd" trademark and brand
The relationship of them is similar to Shanghai Mint and Shanghai Shen Quan Industrial Co., Ltd.
Because Shenyang spring silver industrial corporation is advertising partners of CCTV.so the mark of CCTV appears in the top of the COA on the left side.
In China, CCTV is so famous,with CCTV on a relationship is to enhance the visibility of a shortcut,So no one will give up such a chance,so the mark of CCTV appears......
That is all the reasons


It is my understanding that Shenyang Spring Silver Industrial Co. (沈阳泉银实业总公司) is a contract manufacturer of Shenyang Mint Co., Ltd. for gold, silver and copper medals. The company has its own production facility and quality control. I believe that NGC in its website refers those contract manufacturers as private mints. Most medals issued recently and  discussed in this forum were made by those contract manufacturers. There is quality control problem.

Offline ggoodluck2013

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Re: Is this the 2013 Wutai silver medal original mint packaging????
« Reply #32 on: April 24, 2014, 01:11:26 AM »
Thanks for the link. I know that CCTV is powerful, but have never expected to be in the business of providing the ”seal of approval” for commercial products.

It is my understanding that Shenyang Spring Silver Industrial Co. (沈阳泉银实业总公司) is a contract manufacturer of Shenyang Mint Co., Ltd. for gold, silver and copper medals. The company has its own production facility and quality control. I believe that NGC in its website refers those contract manufacturers as private mints. Most medals issued recently and  discussed in this forum were made by those contract manufacturers. There is quality control problem.
Not a contrcat manufactureer,just a subsidiary of Shenyang Mint Co., Ltd.In fact,there are two subsidiary of Shenyang Mint Co., Ltd.They are Shenyang Spring Silver Industrial Co.and Shenyang Zhongchao Securities printing company(All the COA from Shenyang Mint are printed by Shenyang Zhongchao Securities printing company) .These two companies play an important role in the Shenyang Mint production.They are an important part of the Shenyang Mint.
So NGC will label it as official mint,not  private mint.






Offline fwang2450

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Re: Is this the 2013 Wutai silver medal original mint packaging????
« Reply #33 on: April 24, 2014, 01:27:33 AM »

It is my understanding that Shenyang Spring Silver Industrial Co. (沈阳泉银实业总公司) is a contract manufacturer of Shenyang Mint Co., Ltd. for gold, silver and copper medals. The company has its own production facility and quality control. I believe that NGC in its website refers those contract manufacturers as private mints. Most medals issued recently and  discussed in this forum were made by those contract manufacturers. There is quality control problem.
I am not sure about Shenyang Mint, but Shanghai Mint has been producing brass and bronze medals offsite, in another facility, or satellite site. But that site is not a contract manufacturer. It is part of Shanghai Mint, called 二分厂 or Branch Factory Number 2. It does have its own production facilities and QC processes, but then the precious metal coins/medals produced on the main site also have their own production facilities and QC processes, different from those of circulating coins, which are their main business. All these have had their own share of quality problems, as witnessed in the Lucky Panda, or first panda expo panda.

Offline poconopenn

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Re: Is this the 2013 Wutai silver medal original mint packaging????
« Reply #34 on: April 24, 2014, 11:17:49 PM »
Yes, Shenyang Silver Spring Industrial Co., Ltd. and Shanghai Shen Quan Industrial Co., Ltd. are the subsidiary of Shenyang and Shanghai Mint respectively.  They are the division doing contract manufacturing of gold, silver and copper medals for their respective Mint and have their own production facilities and distribution channels. The medals made by these two subsidiary can be marketed as Mint brand or their own brand, depending on the requirement of contract originator. Both companies produce more than 100 products annually, not just medal but also gold and silver bar, sycee, etc. The quality, based on the recent issued show medals, may not be as good as medals made by Mint in the earlier years.

Medal collection is an advanced numismatic field and has a small collector base. It is also safer for counterfeiter to copy. Usually, the valuation of medal takes long time to appreciate. For collectors, as long as enjoy the design and have fun, it is fine. For investor/speculator, IMO, medal is not a right investment. For example, current valuation of 2013 20 Yuan 2 oz. Wutai silver coin with a planned mintage of 100,000 is about $400 while 80 gm silver Wutai medal with a planned mintage of 3,000 is about $160.

barsenault

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Re: Is this the 2013 Wutai silver medal original mint packaging????
« Reply #35 on: April 24, 2014, 11:33:01 PM »
Yes, Shenyang Silver Spring Industrial Co., Ltd. and Shanghai Shen Quan Industrial Co., Ltd. are the subsidiary of Shenyang and Shanghai Mint respectively.  They are the division doing contract manufacturing of gold, silver and copper medals for their respective Mint and have their own production facilities and distribution channels. The medals made by these two subsidiary can be marketed as Mint brand or their own brand, depending on the requirement of contract originator. Both companies produce more than 100 products annually, not just medal but also gold and silver bar, sycee, etc. The quality, based on the recent issued show medals, may not be as good as medals made by Mint in the earlier years.

Medal collection is an advanced numismatic field and has a small collector base. It is also safer for counterfeiter to copy. Usually, the valuation of medal takes long time to appreciate. For collectors, as long as enjoy the design and have fun, it is fine. For investor/speculator, IMO, medal is not a right investment. For example, current valuation of 2013 20 Yuan 2 oz. Wutai silver coin with a planned mintage of 100,000 is about $400 while 80 gm silver Wutai medal with a planned mintage of 3,000 is about $160.

[/quote

I believe the planned mintage for the Wutai is 999, and you can't find it for 160.00 on eBay, try 220.00
China 2013 80 Grams Silver Medal - Wutai from Shenyang Mint
Purity: 99.9% Silver
Weight: 80 Grams
Diameter: 45 mm
Mintage: 999
Condition: Uncirculated and placed in original pouch. Mint double sealed. With C.O.A. and box. No scratches, No marks, No oxidation spots.

Offline poconopenn

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Re: Is this the 2013 Wutai silver medal original mint packaging????
« Reply #36 on: April 24, 2014, 11:59:39 PM »
Yes, you are correct. The mintage of silver medal is 999. The 3000 mintage is for copper medal.

The price  for this medal is about $160 inside China.

http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?spm=a230r.1.14.336.ij8Z3D&id=36648183985

http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?spm=a230r.1.14.34.ij8Z3D&id=36927552295


Offline fwang2450

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Re: Is this the 2013 Wutai silver medal original mint packaging????
« Reply #37 on: April 25, 2014, 01:50:08 AM »
Medal collection is an advanced numismatic field and has a small collector base. It is also safer for counterfeiter to copy. Usually, the valuation of medal takes long time to appreciate. For collectors, as long as enjoy the design and have fun, it is fine. For investor/speculator, IMO, medal is not a right investment. For example, current valuation of 2013 20 Yuan 2 oz. Wutai silver coin with a planned mintage of 100,000 is about $400 while 80 gm silver Wutai medal with a planned mintage of 3,000 is about $160.

I am not against your view that medals appreciate more slowly than coins. This happened in the past. But your particular example of the Wutai coin vs. medal is kind of simplistic. The Wutai coin was issued in May, 2012, while the Wutai medal was released in Dec., 2014. Their current prices do not reflect price appreciation during the same period of time. If any comparison can be drawn, the Putuo medal issued in June, 2013 is the closest, although it was still more than a year later than the Wutai coin. Still, during the past year, the Putuo medal rose from 1000 yuan to 1500 yuan, a 50% increase. On the other hand, the Wutai 2 oz silver coin had the release price of 1850 yuan. In two years, it appreciated by 600 yuan (using your number), an approximately 30% rise. 50% in one year (medal) vs. 30% in two years (coin). It is not an argument against medals.

In fact the 45mm Putuo bronze medal rose from 138 yuan to about 400 yuan in one year. Almost a 300% increase.

Actually more people are collecting medals in China, including silver or brass or bronze medals. The Garden series has been pretty popular, although commissioned by some collectors. The Sacred Buddhist Lands, starting with Putuo, is promising, too. Whether this reflects a general trend among existing collectors, or whether it is driven by new collectors who do not make a distinction between coins and medals, is hard to tell at this moment. I myself have started on medals with no consideration of investment return.

Offline mmissinglink

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Re: Is this the 2013 Wutai silver medal original mint packaging????
« Reply #38 on: April 25, 2014, 11:56:35 AM »
This is really a great conversation by all the members here sharing their views. Thank you to all of you...I have learned a lot from just this thread.

One question I have is:  Is the Shanghai Mint coins equal to the US Mint coins? In other words, is the Shanghai Mint the official coin currency producing mint in China?

What would be the U.S. equivalent of the Shenyang Mint or the Shanghai New Century Mint?

Thanks for helping me understand the status of these Chinese Mints.

Also, is there a list or can one of you make a list of the most prestigious Mints in China and put them into categories or rankings of how important they are to Chinese medal collectors.

Thank you.

Offline ggoodluck2013

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Re: Is this the 2013 Wutai silver medal original mint packaging????
« Reply #39 on: April 25, 2014, 01:03:27 PM »
This is really a great conversation by all the members here sharing their views. Thank you to all of you...I have learned a lot from just this thread.

One question I have is:  Is the Shanghai Mint coins equal to the US Mint coins? In other words, is the Shanghai Mint the official coin currency producing mint in China?

What would be the U.S. equivalent of the Shenyang Mint or the Shanghai New Century Mint?

Thanks for helping me understand the status of these Chinese Mints.

Also, is there a list or can one of you make a list of the most prestigious Mints in China and put them into categories or rankings of how important they are to Chinese medal collectors.

Thank you.
In simple terms, in China, at the highest leadership position in the financial field is the people's Bank of China, China banknote printing and Minting Corporation and China Gold Coin Corporation are the people's Bank of China's affiliated enterprises. China banknote printing and Minting Corporation subordinate: Shanghai mint, Shenyang mint and Nanjing mint. China Gold Coin Corporation subordinate: Shenzhen Guobao Mint
At NGC,  Shanghai mint,  Shenyang mint and Shenzhen Guobao Mint are defined as the official mint(but in fact,Nanjing mint is also an official mint,maybe one day in the future,NGC will define it as official mint),the others,such as Shanghai New Century Mint,NGC define it as private mint.

Offline mmissinglink

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Re: Is this the 2013 Wutai silver medal original mint packaging????
« Reply #40 on: April 25, 2014, 07:48:36 PM »
Thank you ggoodluck! I sent you a private message early this morning...did you see it?

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Re: Is this the 2013 Wutai silver medal original mint packaging????
« Reply #41 on: April 25, 2014, 10:26:49 PM »
just thought I'd share the Wutai medal video.  It's hard to fully appreciate under the sealed packaging, but beautiful nevertheless. http://youtu.be/kT7EqX5IToE

Offline mmissinglink

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Re: Is this the 2013 Wutai silver medal original mint packaging????
« Reply #42 on: April 26, 2014, 12:00:05 AM »
Even under the double pouch, it's obvious that this is a remarkable medal. The sculptor ought to be awarded high recognition and praise for this design.

Offline poconopenn

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Re: Is this the 2013 Wutai silver medal original mint packaging????
« Reply #43 on: April 26, 2014, 12:35:46 AM »
I am not against your view that medals appreciate more slowly than coins. This happened in the past. But your particular example of the Wutai coin vs. medal is kind of simplistic. The Wutai coin was issued in May, 2012, while the Wutai medal was released in Dec., 2014. Their current prices do not reflect price appreciation during the same period of time. If any comparison can be drawn, the Putuo medal issued in June, 2013 is the closest, although it was still more than a year later than the Wutai coin. Still, during the past year, the Putuo medal rose from 1000 yuan to 1500 yuan, a 50% increase. On the other hand, the Wutai 2 oz silver coin had the release price of 1850 yuan. In two years, it appreciated by 600 yuan (using your number), an approximately 30% rise. 50% in one year (medal) vs. 30% in two years (coin). It is not an argument against medals.

In fact the 45mm Putuo bronze medal rose from 138 yuan to about 400 yuan in one year. Almost a 300% increase.

Actually more people are collecting medals in China, including silver or brass or bronze medals. The Garden series has been pretty popular, although commissioned by some collectors. The Sacred Buddhist Lands, starting with Putuo, is promising, too. Whether this reflects a general trend among existing collectors, or whether it is driven by new collectors who do not make a distinction between coins and medals, is hard to tell at this moment. I myself have started on medals with no consideration of investment return.

Let me say in a different way. Assuming the mintage of Wutai 20 Yuan 2 oz. silver coin is 999, most likely, the current value of this coin will be in four figure and the first digit may not be 1.
 
The combined medals issued by Shanghai, Shenyang and Shenzhen mints are more than 100/year during the last few years. If each medal has a mintage of 1,000, the total number of medals will be more than 100,000/year.  In pre-1990 years, the total number of medals issued by China Mint/year were several thousand and majority had the approval of the People’s Bank of China. Clearly, the medals issued at earlier years are different class from the recent issued medals. The collector base in China simply can not absorb such large quantity medals in the market place. If China Mint continues to produce such large quantity of coin/medal, the MCC market simply can not be sustained in an average rate of appreciation similar to the last five years, especially for post-2010 coins/medals.
 
By the way, I do agree this Wutai medal is well-design by a well-known artist. The question is related to the fair value of this medal. Does this medal worth 4X of silver value? IMO, the answer is a definitely negative, since the current average value of semi-key date gold pandas is about 2.5 x of gold value. For $160, you can buy 1990-1994 1/20 oz. gold panda in OMP or 1992/1993 1 oz. silver panda.  In addition, I also believe that 20 Yuan, 2 oz. Wutai silver coin is overvalued at $400. For $400, flower lunar silver coin which has a mintage of 6,800 is a much better choice.
 
This MCC bear market is not over yet, especially the People's Bank of China is trying very hard to encourage collectors/investors to buy post-2000 gold pandas by removing the VAT for those coins. The current buyback 2013 gold panda program further induces the collectors/investors to buy 2013 and 2014 gold pandas. This will dry up the financial resource of collector/investor for other coins.  For collector, this may be the opportunity to pick up some hard to find coins in a reasonable cost. For investor, do your research, be patient and buy selectively.
   
Frank, thank you for the opportunity to have a friendly discussion. I value your opinion highly.


Offline Birdman

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Re: Is this the 2013 Wutai silver medal original mint packaging????
« Reply #44 on: April 26, 2014, 08:35:23 AM »

This MCC bear market is not over yet, especially the People's Bank of China is trying very hard to encourage collectors/investors to buy post-2000 gold pandas by removing the VAT for those coins. The current buyback 2013 gold panda program further induces the collectors/investors to buy 2013 and 2014 gold pandas. This will dry up the financial resource of collector/investor for other coins.  For collector, this may be the opportunity to pick up some hard to find coins in a reasonable cost. For investor, do your research, be patient and buy selectively.

I never fully understood why the VAT was removed for post year 2000.  Why not all gold pandas?  Or why not only post 2010 or some other date?  Depending on the answer to that, we might better understand whether the VAT removal is temporary for post-2000 or might be extended to older dates?  Perhaps there is a link to a previous forum discussion that clarifies this.

What is the "Current buyback 2013 gold panda program"?  I assumed that the reason 2013 pandas have a low premium is because they have such a much high mintage, but is there an additional incentive or discount for 2013 that a 2011 or 2012 (also high mintages) don't have?

Your hypothesis that the financial resources of collector/investors may be currently somewhat focused on the non-VAT post-2000 pandas seems reasonable.  After all, if a person bought a 2014 for bullion value and then his relative bought him Peter Anthony's book and turned him on to panda collecting, he might start collecting post 2000, since there isn't a VAT, and many of the coins are higher mintage and have lower premiums.  Since gold is not cheap, collecting those dates might occupy him and the disposable income from his paycheck for months or years.  A key question seems to be, how many of those people, once they complete their post 2000 collection, get the urge to then channel their disposable income towards the pre-2000 panda dates?  And how long will it take for that shift to pre-2000 to occur?  And will collectors and their money find a new priority before then?  Interesting questions, but I am definitely on the side of being the patient and selective collector/investor.



Offline mmissinglink

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Re: Is this the 2013 Wutai silver medal original mint packaging????
« Reply #45 on: April 26, 2014, 09:45:23 AM »
Good insight and comments poconopenn and Birdman.

How much volume in the market for Chinese medals comes from foreign (non-Chinese) buyers? How does this compare to the volume of the foreign (non-Chinese) market for Chinese coins?

This may be an important factor in the question of how the value of Chinese coins and medals will appreciate in the years to come.

Offline SANDAC

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Re: Is this the 2013 Wutai silver medal original mint packaging????
« Reply #46 on: April 26, 2014, 06:35:14 PM »
What is the "Current buyback 2013 gold panda program"?  I assumed that the reason 2013 pandas have a low premium is because they have such a much high mintage, but is there an additional incentive or discount for 2013 that a 2011 or 2012 (also high mintages) don't have?
This the link provided by fwang2450 regarding gold panda buyback program:
http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=5665.msg59869#msg59869

The program is not working at this point, but I believe it is an important story.  Reading between the lines I believe there is a long-standing desire on the part of People's bank of china to treat gold panda as the investment bullion and encourage Chinese citizens to own gold in the form of panda.  Toward that end, the marked up price of gold panda purchase is minimal, the capital gain tax is removed (http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=8087.0), and there is a buyback program in place.

fwang2450 has translated an article by Hu Fuqing in 2006, http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=8001.msg46946#msg46946
toward the end of this long article Hu described some of obstacles (in year 2006) facing gold panda as an investment vehicle:  One is the 17% VAT and the other is the lack of buyback channel.  Both obstacles are removed in 2013.  IMO, these are slow-moving but important developments in the on-going gold ownership policy by Chinese citizens and government.

Offline fwang2450

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Re: Is this the 2013 Wutai silver medal original mint packaging????
« Reply #47 on: April 26, 2014, 06:35:54 PM »

By the way, I do agree this Wutai medal is well-design by a well-known artist. The question is related to the fair value of this medal. Does this medal worth 4X of silver value? IMO, the answer is a definitely negative, since the current average value of semi-key date gold pandas is about 2.5 x of gold value. For $160, you can buy 1990-1994 1/20 oz. gold panda in OMP or 1992/1993 1 oz. silver panda.  In addition, I also believe that 20 Yuan, 2 oz. Wutai silver coin is overvalued at $400. For $400, flower lunar silver coin which has a mintage of 6,800 is a much better choice.
 
This MCC bear market is not over yet, especially the People's Bank of China is trying very hard to encourage collectors/investors to buy post-2000 gold pandas by removing the VAT for those coins. The current buyback 2013 gold panda program further induces the collectors/investors to buy 2013 and 2014 gold pandas. This will dry up the financial resource of collector/investor for other coins.  For collector, this may be the opportunity to pick up some hard to find coins in a reasonable cost. For investor, do your research, be patient and buy selectively.
Thanks for your comments, poconopenn. I really appreciate this exchange of views. In my opinion, comparing commemorative/artistic medals, especially large size medals, with bullion pandas may not give the right estimate of their valuation. Panda coins from the very beginning were meant for bullion coins. High premium over the metal cost is unexpected. Even now, collectors in China are complaining about the high premium of panda coin new issues. The price of panda coins is expected to follow the movement of spot prices of gold and silver. Although some early panda coins or rare varieties have broken out of this pattern, the general trend still holds. They are tied down to the spot prices, at a premium, though. Not long ago, a post on jibi.net discussed this dilemma of panda coins in terms of market positioning: http://bbs.jibi.net/dispbbs.asp?boardid=70&Id=257563&page=5

If we move beyond bullion coins, talking about X over the spot price does not make sense anymore. Who would care about the premium of copper-nickel coins, or brass/bronze medals, over the material cost? At the extreme end, we have stamps and paper banknotes, the material cost of which is negligible. For numismatic/commemorative/artistic coins and medals, the numismatic/commemorative/artistic value plays an important role in determining the premium, no matter how many times it is over the material cost. In this light, the non-key or semi-key panda coins will always be bound by the spot price, but the cap of commemorative/artistic medals will depend on other factors than the spot price.

Here are some interesting posts on valuation and pricing of large bronze medals for your reference, in Chinese:

http://bbs.bqcoin.com/read-htm-tid-4414.html
http://bbs.bqcoin.com/read-htm-tid-4415.html
http://bbs.bqcoin.com/read-htm-tid-4416.html

barsenault

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Re: Is this the 2013 Wutai silver medal original mint packaging????
« Reply #48 on: April 26, 2014, 06:40:37 PM »
Thanks for your comments, poconopenn. I really appreciate this exchange of views. In my opinion, comparing commemorative/artistic medals, especially large size medals, with bullion pandas may not give the right estimate of their valuation. Panda coins from the very beginning were meant for bullion coins. High premium over the metal cost is unexpected. Even now, collectors in China are complaining about the high premium of panda coin new issues. The price of panda coins is expected to follow the movement of spot prices of gold and silver. Although some early panda coins or rare varieties have broken out of this pattern, the general trend still holds. They are tied down to the spot prices, at a premium, though. Not long ago, a post on jibi.net discussed this dilemma of panda coins in terms of market positioning: http://bbs.jibi.net/dispbbs.asp?boardid=70&Id=257563&page=5

If we move beyond bullion coins, talking about X over the spot price does not make sense anymore. Who would care about the premium of copper-nickel coins, or brass/bronze medals, over the material cost? At the extreme end, we have stamps and paper banknotes, the material cost of which is negligible. For numismatic/commemorative/artistic coins and medals, the numismatic/commemorative/artistic value plays an important role in determining the premium, no matter how many times it is over the material cost. In this light, the non-key or semi-key panda coins will always be bound by the spot price, but the cap of commemorative/artistic medals will depend on other factors than the spot price.

Here are some interesting posts on valuation and pricing of large bronze medals for your reference, in Chinese:

http://bbs.bqcoin.com/read-htm-tid-4414.html
http://bbs.bqcoin.com/read-htm-tid-4415.html
http://bbs.bqcoin.com/read-htm-tid-4416.html


Damn, I need to learn chinese.  LOL

Offline poconopenn

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Re: Is this the 2013 Wutai silver medal original mint packaging????
« Reply #49 on: April 26, 2014, 11:04:54 PM »

Here are some interesting posts on valuation and pricing of large bronze medals for your reference, in Chinese:

http://bbs.bqcoin.com/read-htm-tid-4414.html
http://bbs.bqcoin.com/read-htm-tid-4415.html
http://bbs.bqcoin.com/read-htm-tid-4416.html


I do collect large size copper/brass medals very selectively for their artistic value and design. Again, this is a very different class and they are not made by China Mint. Two books as attached are must have before for anyone to start to collect those medals.

Offline poconopenn

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Re: Is this the 2013 Wutai silver medal original mint packaging????
« Reply #50 on: April 26, 2014, 11:11:46 PM »
The buyback program actually started in 2003 for 2001-D gold panda. It did not work out due to the complication of VAT. After the removal of VAT for post-2000 gold pandas in 2012, China Gold Coin Inc. decided to try again. In September 2013, a pilot program was initiated at three retail stores of China Gold Coin Inc. located at Beijing, Shanghai and Shenzhen respectively for gold pandas issued after 2013, since its mintage is very high and the value is close to bullion. Eventually, if the pilot program work out, it will expand to the banks and other retail stores associated to China Gold Coin Inc.

Chinese have the tradition to hold gold bar or sycee. It is logical for People’s Bank of China to try to make gold trading as transparent as possible. Unlike gold bar and sycee, the gold panda has a precise weight and issued by government. The general public will fell safe to buy gold panda as investment vehicle without any concern of liquidation problem later with this buyback program.  The buyback price is based on the price at Shanghai Gold Exchange at the time of buyback. 

Offline mmissinglink

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Re: Is this the 2013 Wutai silver medal original mint packaging????
« Reply #51 on: April 27, 2014, 12:14:22 AM »
Pocono, I don't suppose those books are available in an English translated version, are they?

Just like Barsenault, I feel woefully inadequate in getting deeper understanding because some of the important writing on this subject is in Chinese....understandably of course.

Also, I'm curious to know is there is some internet source (in English preferably) which makes regularly updated lists of newly released  Chinese medals? I am a fan of medals.

The reason I ask is because if it weren't for a person in a different forum mentioning the Wutai silver medal and if it weren't for me logging into that forum regularly, I probably would never have learned of this medal. And it was by sheer luck that I learned about another Chinese medal that I want to buy soon. So, instead of learning of new medals by luck, I want to know if there is a source which focuses on medals which gives updates on newly released medals.

barsenault

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Re: Is this the 2013 Wutai silver medal original mint packaging????
« Reply #52 on: April 27, 2014, 08:06:15 AM »
Hey poconopen, the brass medals on the front of that book are amazing.  I can see why this type of collecting is in a different category.  It truly is like buying a painting, which can appreciate in value over time.  You're appreciating the artistic work of the designer or 'painter.'  Very impressive.  I was tempted to buy the brass panda insurrrance medal, but decided against it, since it wasn't done by an 'official mint.'  What are your thoughts about that medal? http://www.ebay.com/itm/China-2012-Brass-Medal-30th-Anniversary-of-Issurance-of-China-Panda-Gold-Coins-/151250801957?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2337401525

Offline wg

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Re: Is this the 2013 Wutai silver medal original mint packaging????
« Reply #53 on: April 27, 2014, 10:10:48 AM »


Offline mmissinglink

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Re: Is this the 2013 Wutai silver medal original mint packaging????
« Reply #55 on: April 27, 2014, 11:07:04 AM »
^  Right, they can't both be the OGP because one is in a baggie inside a plastic pouch and the other isn't.

Offline poconopenn

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Re: Is this the 2013 Wutai silver medal original mint packaging????
« Reply #56 on: April 27, 2014, 11:51:52 PM »
The sealing pattern of  pouch with bag inside in wg's picture is not Shenyang Mint. It is resealed by somebody.

Offline poconopenn

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Re: Is this the 2013 Wutai silver medal original mint packaging????
« Reply #57 on: April 28, 2014, 12:11:04 AM »
Pocono, I don't suppose those books are available in an English translated version, are they?

Just like Barsenault, I feel woefully inadequate in getting deeper understanding because some of the important writing on this subject is in Chinese....understandably of course.

Also, I'm curious to know is there is some internet source (in English preferably) which makes regularly updated lists of newly released  Chinese medals? I am a fan of medals.

The reason I ask is because if it weren't for a person in a different forum mentioning the Wutai silver medal and if it weren't for me logging into that forum regularly, I probably would never have learned of this medal. And it was by sheer luck that I learned about another Chinese medal that I want to buy soon. So, instead of learning of new medals by luck, I want to know if there is a source which focuses on medals which gives updates on newly released medals.

Sorry, there is no English website to discuss Chines medal, except CCF.

Here is the website of Shanghai Mint. The page shows pictures of medals issued recently.

http://www.shmintjp.com/

Here is website of Shenyang Mint. The page show pictures of products issued recently.

http://www.sy-mint.com/Product.asp



barsenault

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Re: Is this the 2013 Wutai silver medal original mint packaging????
« Reply #58 on: April 28, 2014, 06:22:25 AM »
The sealing pattern of  pouch with bag inside in wg's picture is not Shenyang Mint. It is resealed by somebody.

Dang.  I got the one with a bag from Lucky.  Bummer.  Better not be a fake. Why would someone put a bag inside? Strange.  You think the one with a bag is fake?

barsenault

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Re: Is this the 2013 Wutai silver medal original mint packaging????
« Reply #59 on: April 28, 2014, 06:25:06 AM »
Sorry, there is no English website to discuss Chines medal, except CCF.

Here is the website of Shanghai Mint. The page shows pictures of medals issued recently.

http://www.shmintjp.com/

Here is website of Shenyang Mint. The page show pictures of products issued recently.

http://www.sy-mint.com/Product.asp



wow, there are some nice medals.  as someone said, it seems as though there are unlimited amount, and unless you are doing this as a collector of art, it's best to stay away as an investor.  How does one know which to get or which to stay away from as an investor.  Too many to know the difference.  I have to say, the way the chinese can put such intricate detail on a piece of medal is quite astounding and impressive.  It is simply delicious.  :-)  
« Last Edit: April 28, 2014, 06:51:05 AM by barsenault »

Offline mmissinglink

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Re: Is this the 2013 Wutai silver medal original mint packaging????
« Reply #60 on: April 28, 2014, 11:37:23 AM »
The sealing pattern of  pouch with bag inside in wg's picture is not Shenyang Mint. It is resealed by somebody.

How can you be certain, Ponocopenn? I need to know because I will have to confront the seller because the picture of the medal inside the baggie is the medal that was shipped to me and it was stated in the auction that this is the original mint double sealing.

So, I have been told a lie by the person I purchased from?...this is very disappointing as this seller should have either known or if didn't know, should have found out. Can anyone here confirm what Ponocopenn is stating?

Thank you.

barsenault

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Re: Is this the 2013 Wutai silver medal original mint packaging????
« Reply #61 on: April 28, 2014, 11:42:54 AM »
You have made a confusing statement. wg posted 2 pictures. They are both different medals. One of them is my medal....the other isn't. So how can you say that the medal is re-sealed if there's 2 different medals and they are both sealed in a different way? Is one picture depicting the original packaging or are none of those the original packaging? It's important for me to understand this. Which one of the 2 pictures is not original mint packaging...the left or right picture?

Thanks you.

I could be crazy, wouldn't surprise my wife. LOL, but I think the left one is original package, and the other with the sandwich bag (which I have, urrrrgh) is resealed.  Better not be so, because Lucky will have some explaining to do, or I'll never order from him again!!!

Offline mmissinglink

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Re: Is this the 2013 Wutai silver medal original mint packaging????
« Reply #62 on: April 28, 2014, 11:47:07 AM »
Sorry, there is no English website to discuss Chines medal, except CCF.

Here is the website of Shanghai Mint. The page shows pictures of medals issued recently.

http://www.shmintjp.com/

Here is website of Shenyang Mint. The page show pictures of products issued recently.

http://www.sy-mint.com/Product.asp



The Shenyang Mint website is not a good source for discerning what the original mint packaging of the Wutai silver medal is supposed to look like. http://www.sy-mint.com/ProductShow.asp?ID=257

Is there any official website which shows pictures of what the original packaging is supposed to look like?

Offline mmissinglink

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Re: Is this the 2013 Wutai silver medal original mint packaging????
« Reply #63 on: April 28, 2014, 11:54:32 AM »
I could be crazy, wouldn't surprise my wife. LOL, but I think the left one is original package, and the other with the sandwich bag (which I have, urrrrgh) is resealed.  Better not be so, because Lucky will have some explaining to do, or I'll never order from him again!!!

Lucky, AS FAR AS i KNOW, didn't advertise that his medal was in the original mint packaging so I think he is off the hook if it turns out the medal inside the baggie is not the original mint packaging. but the seller I purchased it from did advertise in his auction double sealed original mint packaging. It's one thing to sell it in a re-sealed packaging if you don't advertise that it's original and it's another thing to sell in re-sealed if you are advertising that it's original mint packaging.

I am quickly becoming distrusting of some of the Chinese sellers on eBay so please someone confirm whether or not ponocopenn is correct or not. Ponocopenn, what is your source for your claim about the original packaging?

Thank you.

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Re: Is this the 2013 Wutai silver medal original mint packaging????
« Reply #64 on: April 28, 2014, 02:12:22 PM »
Lucky, AS FAR AS i KNOW, didn't advertise that his medal was in the original mint packaging so I think he is off the hook if it turns out the medal inside the baggie is not the original mint packaging. but the seller I purchased it from did advertise in his auction double sealed original mint packaging. It's one thing to sell it in a re-sealed packaging if you don't advertise that it's original and it's another thing to sell in re-sealed if you are advertising that it's original mint packaging.

I am quickly becoming distrusting of some of the Chinese sellers on eBay so please someone confirm whether or not ponocopenn is correct or not. Ponocopenn, what is your source for your claim about the original packaging?

Thank you.

missing, facts are in.  I got my 2 Wutai medals from Thincat.  and guess what?  They too had the sandwich bags in side. So both Thincat and Lucky sent the identical packages...so my mind is now at peace...although FEDEX crashed the package, geesh.  Bad job packaging. 

Offline fwang2450

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Re: Is this the 2013 Wutai silver medal original mint packaging????
« Reply #65 on: April 28, 2014, 05:53:50 PM »
The sealing pattern of  pouch with bag inside in wg's picture is not Shenyang Mint. It is resealed by somebody.
Is this in the Shenyang Mint seal?

Offline mmissinglink

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Re: Is this the 2013 Wutai silver medal original mint packaging????
« Reply #66 on: April 28, 2014, 06:12:01 PM »
fwang, is that a picture of the Wutai medal as it comes shipped from the Shenyang Mint? If yes, is it an authoritative source that supplied the picture?

Thanks for helping to clear this up.

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Re: Is this the 2013 Wutai silver medal original mint packaging????
« Reply #67 on: April 28, 2014, 06:34:37 PM »
Is this in the Shenyang Mint seal?

Has to be.  Because the two separate orders I received from 2 separate dealers have the same thing.  Although I found it interesting that the #445 and #443 have the red zip line, and the 991 has clear line on the baggie...but both have baggies.  

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Re: Is this the 2013 Wutai silver medal original mint packaging????
« Reply #68 on: April 28, 2014, 06:35:49 PM »
fwang, is that a picture of the Wutai medal as it comes shipped from the Shenyang Mint? If yes, is it an authoritative source that supplied the picture?

Thanks for helping to clear this up.

I think he's asking the same question we are. LOL.  And I'm saying it has to be the official packaging, because I got 2 different orders from 2 different times...and they all have the baggie!!

Offline mmissinglink

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Re: Is this the 2013 Wutai silver medal original mint packaging????
« Reply #69 on: April 28, 2014, 07:41:57 PM »
Just because 2 separate dealers on eBay ship the same product in a similar packaging doesn't necessarily mean that both sellers are not getting their stock from different sources and doesn't mean that this source isn't re-sealing the item.

Offline mmissinglink

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Re: Is this the 2013 Wutai silver medal original mint packaging????
« Reply #70 on: April 28, 2014, 07:44:03 PM »
That's why I asked ponocopenn for his source of claim. If it is an official source (like the Shenyang Mint for example), then I will trust it.

And yes, Barsenault, I think maybe you are right, fwang is inquiring not making a statement with his photo.

Offline fwang2450

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Re: Is this the 2013 Wutai silver medal original mint packaging????
« Reply #71 on: April 28, 2014, 08:06:53 PM »
That's why I asked ponocopenn for his source of claim. If it is an official source (like the Shenyang Mint for example), then I will trust it.

And yes, Barsenault, I think maybe you are right, fwang is inquiring not making a statement with his photo.
Since the packaging in wg's post, which is confirmed by ponocopenn as from Shenyang Mint, is from thincat00's listing, why not ask him directly?

Thincat's listing: http://www.ebay.com/itm/China-2013-80-Grams-Silver-Medal-Wutai-from-Shenyang-Mint/161284570481?_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222003%26algo%3DSIC.FIT%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D22466%26meid%3D6500800244624124518%26pid%3D100005%26prg%3D9735%26rk%3D4%26rkt%3D6%26sd%3D161235281753&rt=nc

barsenault

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Re: Is this the 2013 Wutai silver medal original mint packaging????
« Reply #72 on: April 28, 2014, 09:16:43 PM »
Since the packaging in wg's post, which is confirmed by ponocopenn as from Shenyang Mint, is from thincat00's listing, why not ask him directly?

Thincat's listing: http://www.ebay.com/itm/China-2013-80-Grams-Silver-Medal-Wutai-from-Shenyang-Mint/161284570481?_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222003%26algo%3DSIC.FIT%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D22466%26meid%3D6500800244624124518%26pid%3D100005%26prg%3D9735%26rk%3D4%26rkt%3D6%26sd%3D161235281753&rt=nc

Here is what Thincat wrote.  "a short one: all wuTai and putuo can NOT be fake, regardless their sealing pattern. ill write you more on this in a few minutes..."  Sent from Huawei Mobile.

By the way, I sent him both pictures...one he has on eBay, and the one with the red zip lock baggie.  I think we are good, but I'll pass on what he says.  Thanks.

Offline mmissinglink

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Re: Is this the 2013 Wutai silver medal original mint packaging????
« Reply #73 on: April 28, 2014, 10:29:12 PM »
Since the packaging in wg's post, which is confirmed by ponocopenn as from Shenyang Mint, is from thincat00's listing, why not ask him directly?

Thincat's listing: http://www.ebay.com/itm/China-2013-80-Grams-Silver-Medal-Wutai-from-Shenyang-Mint/161284570481?_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222003%26algo%3DSIC.FIT%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D22466%26meid%3D6500800244624124518%26pid%3D100005%26prg%3D9735%26rk%3D4%26rkt%3D6%26sd%3D161235281753&rt=nc


I asked thincat several days ago. I actually have found thincat to be pleasant to deal with and responsive to my emails....I like thincat. But sometimes sellers either are mistaken or flat out lie. I don't want to accuse someone of something that I have no evidence for. That's why I asked ponocopenn for a source and asked if anyone else can corroborate ponocopenn's claim. I am not assuming ponocopenn's claim is accurate or false....I am looking for verification or refutation of his claim with the backing of some official source.

Maybe getting the question answered (what does the original mint packaging look like?) is a lot more difficult than I initially assumed. I thought it would be an easy question to answer.

It would bejust like someone in China who speaks and writes no English who is deciding to buy a specific medal on eBay that was made by the Medallic Art Company and 2 different sellers are selling the same medal. The Chinese buyer wants to buy the medal with the original mint packaging because it's important to him.  One, but not the other, eBay sellers states in his auction listing that the medal comes in its original mint packaging so the Chinese buyer pays more to buy it because of the claim the one seller makes in his auction listing.

The Chinese buyer is a member of a forum where people have a common interest in medals from America. These forum members not only speak very good Chinese, but some speak and write perfect English. So the Chinese buyer asks any of these members if they can verify what the original mint packaging of the American made medal looks like....thinking that because some of them speak and write English that they may be able to obtain information about an American made medal that the Chinese buyer can not possibly obtain because he speaks and writes no English. Then, one or more of the English speaking forum member would be able to easily translate the English information about the American medal into Chinese and inform the Chinese buyer what the original mint packaging looks like by providing a source of the information....whether that source was through an internet page or the words of a customer service personnel at the Mint.


Offline silverstar1

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Re: Is this the 2013 Wutai silver medal original mint packaging????
« Reply #74 on: April 28, 2014, 10:41:29 PM »
This is a tricky one but could it be that since it is not an official coin the guidelines are a little more relaxed, could they both be OMP? the seals look similar in the pictures. Could it be that they had complaints of rubbing so they changed to the bag inside the seal or viceversa where they sealed with the bag and had complaints so they switched to just sealed with no bag , or no complaints but just changed it ? just a thought but seems as likely as either being resealed. As for Thincat I personally have dealt with him for years and have to say he is my favourite PM dealer hands down whether domestic or international, I can assure any here he would not engage in any purposeful deceptive practice!

barsenault

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Re: Is this the 2013 Wutai silver medal original mint packaging????
« Reply #75 on: April 28, 2014, 10:45:57 PM »

This is a tricky one but could it be that since it is not an official coin the guidelines are a little more relaxed, could they both be OMP? the seals look similar in the pictures. Could it be that they had complaints of rubbing so they changed to the bag inside the seal or viceversa where they sealed with the bag and had complaints so they switched to just sealed with no bag , or no complaints but just changed it ? just a thought but seems as likely as either being resealed. As for Thincat I personally have dealt with him for years and have to say he is my favourite PM dealer hands down whether domestic or international, I can assure any here he would not engage in any purposeful deceptive practice!
[/quote]
He will get back to me on the questions we are asking.  He is a good guy, and so far the best I've dealt with too!  very responsive, and certainly helps (me) that he speaks english well.  

Offline poconopenn

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Re: Is this the 2013 Wutai silver medal original mint packaging????
« Reply #76 on: April 28, 2014, 11:10:10 PM »
Is this in the Shenyang Mint seal?

Yes, the sealing pattern is Shenyang Mint.

Attached are section pictures copied from wg’s posting. The first is typical from Shenyang Mint, similar to Frank’s picture copied from listing at Taobao. The second picture is self-sealed pouch, similar to mmissinglink's medal as shown in the picture in the start of this thread.

Now, we have three versions of package; one without bag in Shenyang Mint pouch, one with bag in Shenyang Mint pouch and one with bag in self-sealed pouch.

Buy the coin/medal, not the package or holder.

The sealing pattern of different Mints was  discussed extensively in the following thread.
 
http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=9459.0

Those sellers of 2013 Wutai medal might receive the medal from the contract originator without knowing the fact that there were different versions of package made, similar to the discussion of Shanghai Memory medal in the above mentioned thread.






Offline mmissinglink

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Re: Is this the 2013 Wutai silver medal original mint packaging????
« Reply #77 on: April 29, 2014, 12:06:56 AM »
ponocopenn,

You write, "...there were different versions of package made..."

Correct me if I'm wrong, but are you saying that you now believe that all 3 variations, including what you call the "self-sealed pouch" version may actually be coming from the Mint that way?

I read a couple of the 16 pages of that other thread you linked to.  I get it about buying the medal not the OMP but for some collectors, having the medal / coin in the OMP is important. I have met other collectors who also prefer to own certain coins in the OMP instead of not. And besides, equally important is about knowing the integrity and honesty of the sellers in a foreign country that you want to establish a business relationship with.

Offline mmissinglink

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Re: Is this the 2013 Wutai silver medal original mint packaging????
« Reply #78 on: April 29, 2014, 12:18:43 AM »
From SilverStackers forum, member honson from Hong Kong appears to believe that the self-sealed pouch version is from the Mint and apparently what happened is that some or many medals were returned to the Mint because of "fade" (I think maybe that is like toning or discoloration) and then the Mint opened the OMP and put the medals inside a baggie and re-sealed the outer plastic pouch.

If I am understanding honson correctly, then the version that ponocopenn refers to as "self sealed pouch" may actually come from the Mint that way after they received some medals returned with "fade" and then the Mint put in baggie for extra protection against "fade" and re-sealed the pouch. I think.

Offline silverstar1

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Re: Is this the 2013 Wutai silver medal original mint packaging????
« Reply #79 on: April 29, 2014, 12:32:49 AM »
So the mint solution for people complaining about discolouration was to add a little bag inside the mint sealed pouch? That would actually be amusing! if so I think this may be the first issue to use the "baggie inside pouch " method and may be worth a premium....
On another note this looks to be a really nice medal and cant wait to see it in person!


 
From SilverStackers forum, member honson from Hong Kong appears to believe that the self-sealed pouch version is from the Mint and apparently what happened is that some or many medals were returned to the Mint because of "fade" (I think maybe that is like toning or discoloration) and then the Mint opened the OMP and put the medals inside a baggie and re-sealed the outer plastic pouch.

If I am understanding honson correctly, then the version that ponocopenn refers to as "self sealed pouch" may actually come from the Mint that way after they received some medals returned with "fade" and then the Mint put in baggie for extra protection against "fade" and re-sealed the pouch. I think.

Offline silverstar1

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Re: Is this the 2013 Wutai silver medal original mint packaging????
« Reply #80 on: April 29, 2014, 12:36:45 AM »
Thanks for the good pictures of the mint seals Poconopenn, they certainly appear different in a way , but I am not that familiar in the process.

Offline mmissinglink

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Re: Is this the 2013 Wutai silver medal original mint packaging????
« Reply #81 on: April 29, 2014, 12:51:35 AM »
I already left positive feedback for thincat days ago and I do not plan on returning the medal even if I were to find out days from now that there's no way that the Mint shipped some of the Wutai medals in baggies and also a re-sealed plastic pouch.

So I guess in one way, it's a moot point for me since I will keep the medal anyway. But still, I would like to know if it's possible that the Shenyang Mint re-sealed some of its own medals on occasion.

Offline mmissinglink

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Re: Is this the 2013 Wutai silver medal original mint packaging????
« Reply #82 on: April 29, 2014, 06:06:22 AM »
I asked honson for clarity and he says that if the medals came from the Mint in baggies, they would not have been returns that were re-sealed but rather after the first wave of medals release to sale were found to have "fade" problems (perhaps the plastic pouch was getting faded, not the medals), then the subsequent wave of medals released for sale may have been put inside of baggies inside the plastic pouch.

That does make more sense than the Mint re-sealing returned medals. Nonetheless, if it is the Mint putting the medals in baggies, it's the first time I have seen this and the confusion that it caused me is what prompted me to begin this thread.

But still, what doesn't make so much sense is the variation in sealing pattern of the medal I received and pictured previously. How would that be explained?

barsenault

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Re: Is this the 2013 Wutai silver medal original mint packaging????
« Reply #83 on: April 29, 2014, 06:59:24 AM »
I asked honson for clarity and he says that if the medals came from the Mint in baggies, they would not have been returns that were re-sealed but rather after the first wave of medals release to sale were found to have "fade" problems (perhaps the plastic pouch was getting faded, not the medals), then the subsequent wave of medals released for sale may have been put inside of baggies inside the plastic pouch.

That does make more sense than the Mint re-sealing returned medals. Nonetheless, if it is the Mint putting the medals in baggies, it's the first time I have seen this and the confusion that it caused me is what prompted me to begin this thread.

But still, what doesn't make so much sense is the variation in sealing pattern of the medal I received and pictured previously. How would that be explained?

Not to mention, I have 2 variations of 'baggie types' in the pouches. I'll take pictures.  This is the craziest thing I've ever seen.  And we still don't have a rock solid explanation yet.  Most just speculation and conjecture...hopefully someone who is chinese can find out. :-)

barsenault

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Re: Is this the 2013 Wutai silver medal original mint packaging????
« Reply #84 on: April 29, 2014, 08:33:14 AM »
Three medals, 2 dealers, and 2 different baggies. Maybe one is more valuable than the other. LOL.  402 and 445 are the same color, and 929 is clear. 


Offline ggoodluck2013

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Re: Is this the 2013 Wutai silver medal original mint packaging????
« Reply #85 on: April 29, 2014, 08:45:37 AM »
Is this in the Shenyang Mint seal?
There is no doubt that it is an original packing

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Re: Is this the 2013 Wutai silver medal original mint packaging????
« Reply #86 on: April 29, 2014, 09:00:43 AM »
Three medals, 2 dealers, and 2 different baggies. Maybe one is more valuable than the other. LOL.  402 and 445 are the same color, and 929 is clear. 


They are all original packing

Offline mmissinglink

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Re: Is this the 2013 Wutai silver medal original mint packaging????
« Reply #87 on: April 29, 2014, 11:26:01 AM »
Thank you ggoodluck. I must assume that you are certain about this as you are a dealer in China who has seen  Wutai medals come directly from the Mint in those 3 packaging versions, yes?

Offline ggoodluck2013

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Re: Is this the 2013 Wutai silver medal original mint packaging????
« Reply #88 on: April 29, 2014, 11:35:20 AM »
Thank you ggoodluck. I must assume that you are certain about this as you are a dealer in China who has seen  Wutai medals come directly from the Mint in those 3 packaging versions, yes?

If you are now in Shanghai Lugong Market which is one of the biggest maket in China,you take those three to any dealer and ask,they will tell you,original packing.


barsenault

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Re: Is this the 2013 Wutai silver medal original mint packaging????
« Reply #89 on: April 29, 2014, 11:54:38 PM »
Well, here you go.  Comment from perhaps my favorite dealer in China.  Thincat.

Hi Bob,
Sorry for the later reply...
"Regarding the pouch sealing confusion: As you know, Shenyang mint made such medals batch by batch, so to speak, 200 pcs for the first batch, then came another batch of 200 or even 300, for each batch, the sealing pattern could be different, and it's very normal.  I clearly remember that for the first batch of the wutai, there is no plastic bag inside the pouch, but for the newly made ones, there are; Furthermore, I also remind myself that the first batch of the medals came in a sheet (5 x 8) pieces, in order to cut one single medal from the whole sheet, you need to cut the conjuction pouch part between two medals, such conjuction pouch part is very thin and I believe both medals or at least one medal will be cut open as its pouch has split, in this case, some dealers will just sell the medals as they are, but other dealers will seal the medal by themselves, can you say it's a re-sealed one? I think not. In a word, I strongly suggest that we should forget whether medal is re-sealed or not, and it makes no sense, such putuo or wutai medals are drak silver medals, no milk or dark spots can be generated, so it makes no sense for the dealers to cut the pouch and to polish the medals, right? Last not certainly not the least, all such wutai and putuo medals are genuine ones, I have never seen fakes, I don't believe there exist fakes, as they are relatively cheap stuffs comparing to Chinese coins that have face value, and the counterfeiters are only interested on making some expensive Chinese coins (most of them are old chinese pandas), as they are easy to sell and the they can bring more back by copying such panda coins instead of medals. Also, just look at the putuo or wutai medals, how "mazy" they are, high relief... I think those who can really counterfeit these medals can set up their legal business and don't need to copy others' work at all."

Offline mmissinglink

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Re: Is this the 2013 Wutai silver medal original mint packaging????
« Reply #90 on: April 30, 2014, 12:51:09 AM »
Thincat makes some good points though I have seen plenty of fake common, modern, inexpensive bullion coins being sold by Chinese businesses. So they are not just making fake expensive coins at all. Last year I found at least 2 dozen sellers on AliExpress selling good quality ASE's like this which are alleged to be non-metallic, the correct weight, and correct diameter of a common low cost bullion real ASE:  http://www.aliexpress.com/item/2014-American-Silver-Eagle-1-oz-Pure-Silver-99-99-1USD-Dollars-40-6MM-31-1g/1761860756.html

To me, the fact that these very common and popular bullion coins (ASE's) are being replicated to such a high standard is a little unsettling.

barsenault

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Re: Is this the 2013 Wutai silver medal original mint packaging????
« Reply #91 on: April 30, 2014, 06:40:30 AM »
Thincat makes some good points though I have seen plenty of fake common, modern, inexpensive bullion coins being sold by Chinese businesses. So they are not just making fake expensive coins at all. Last year I found at least 2 dozen sellers on AliExpress selling good quality ASE's like this which are alleged to be non-metallic, the correct weight, and correct diameter of a common low cost bullion real ASE:  http://www.aliexpress.com/item/2014-American-Silver-Eagle-1-oz-Pure-Silver-99-99-1USD-Dollars-40-6MM-31-1g/1761860756.html

To me, the fact that these very common and popular bullion coins (ASE's) are being replicated to such a high standard is a little unsettling.


Hey missing, are you sure these are fake eagles?  those things look real, and they even say .999 silver.  what leads you to believe they are not?  If they are not, why isn't the U.S. mint all over this company?

Offline mmissinglink

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Re: Is this the 2013 Wutai silver medal original mint packaging????
« Reply #92 on: April 30, 2014, 09:19:22 AM »
Hey missing, are you sure these are fake eagles?  those things look real, and they even say .999 silver.  what leads you to believe they are not?  If they are not, why isn't the U.S. mint all over this company?


Definitely fake and legal in China. To see that they are fake, go below to the bullet points and see "Antique Imitation" and "Souvenir"....I think that's the exact words they use. There are bullion coins of every conceivable type being faked. The fakes are imitating common bullion coins....not rare expensive coins only.

Yes, I know, if this is the first time you are learning this....it is a bit shocking.

The pieces sold may be .999 silver and may in fact be 1 oz but they are nonetheless, still fakes of a real bullion coin. Most of the fakes are in fact silver plated. Still, they look quite convincing.

Some people make the case that with low cost, decent quality fakes, they can be used as decoys so that in the event you are at work and you happen to have some real silver or gold coins at home in a hidden or secure place and someone breaks into your home and they come across silver or gold coins that look real, that this may prevent a more rigorous and efforted search for coins or other valuables that the thief (who may not be a coin expert) may suspect you have. It's not so unusual for a friend or a friend of a friend or a relative who is desperate and who may have some knowledge that you have some valuables (including of course real coins) in your home, to attempt to steal those valuables.

Offline poconopenn

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Re: Is this the 2013 Wutai silver medal original mint packaging????
« Reply #93 on: April 30, 2014, 07:05:45 PM »

Definitely fake and legal in China. To see that they are fake, go below to the bullet points and see "Antique Imitation" and "Souvenir"....I think that's the exact words they use. There are bullion coins of every conceivable type being faked. The fakes are imitating common bullion coins....not rare expensive coins only.

Yes, I know, if this is the first time you are learning this....it is a bit shocking.

The pieces sold may be .999 silver and may in fact be 1 oz but they are nonetheless, still fakes of a real bullion coin. Most of the fakes are in fact silver plated. Still, they look quite convincing.

Some people make the case that with low cost, decent quality fakes, they can be used as decoys so that in the event you are at work and you happen to have some real silver or gold coins at home in a hidden or secure place and someone breaks into your home and they come across silver or gold coins that look real, that this may prevent a more rigorous and efforted search for coins or other valuables that the thief (who may not be a coin expert) may suspect you have. It's not so unusual for a friend or a friend of a friend or a relative who is desperate and who may have some knowledge that you have some valuables (including of course real coins) in your home, to attempt to steal those valuables.

Those reproduction ASEs have been in the market for a long time. Usually they can be bought at $2.50/coin with a  min. order of 20 from China. They are silver plated.

Offline mmissinglink

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Re: Is this the 2013 Wutai silver medal original mint packaging????
« Reply #94 on: April 30, 2014, 09:46:52 PM »
The item I posted the link to appears to claim that it's 1 oz solid .999 silver. So basically, if true, it's a silver round that looks just like an ASE.

Of course, there are many listings on AliExpress in which silver plated rounds are being sold but it looks like they stepped up the fake game with a 1 oz pure silver replica ASE.

If those get on the US market widely, it could be a problem as most stackers and even coin collectors would likely not be able to tell the difference between a well made ,999 pure silver 1 oz ASE replica and the real McCoy.

barsenault

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Re: Is this the 2013 Wutai silver medal original mint packaging????
« Reply #95 on: April 30, 2014, 09:52:28 PM »
The item I posted the link to appears to claim that it's 1 oz solid .999 silver. So basically, if true, it's a silver round that looks just like an ASE.

Of course, there are many listings on AliExpress in which silver plated rounds are being sold but it looks like they stepped up the fake game with a 1 oz pure silver replica ASE.

If those get on the US market widely, it could be a problem as most stackers and even coin collectors would likely not be able to tell the difference between a well made ,999 pure silver 1 oz ASE replica and the real McCoy.

If those were actual fakes claiming all the same parameters of the McCoy, I'd be very shocked, and it would be alarming, and I can't imagine the U.S. govt getting involved. 

Offline mmissinglink

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Re: Is this the 2013 Wutai silver medal original mint packaging????
« Reply #96 on: May 01, 2014, 02:11:58 AM »
The US gov't can do nothing to prevent or stop the manufacturer of them. And, as far as I know, it's not illegal for US citizens to buy them. As far as resale within the US, that might be illegal...though I don't know for certain.

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Re: Is this the 2013 Wutai silver medal original mint packaging????
« Reply #97 on: May 03, 2014, 03:28:05 PM »
It appears as if the Shenyang Mint itself has packaged the Wutai medal in more than one configuration. These images are close-ups of my second Wutai medal (this medal was bought on eBay but not from thincat or lucklymoney:




<a href="http://s2.photobucket.com/user/mmissinglink/media/Coins/101_2285_zps11307c59.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y6/mmissinglink/Coins/101_2285_zps11307c59.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 101_2285_zps11307c59.jpg"/>[/url]






<a href="http://s2.photobucket.com/user/mmissinglink/media/Coins/101_2282_zps6380d473.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y6/mmissinglink/Coins/101_2282_zps6380d473.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 101_2282_zps6380d473.jpg"/>[/url]






<a href="http://s2.photobucket.com/user/mmissinglink/media/Coins/101_2281_zps97951214.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y6/mmissinglink/Coins/101_2281_zps97951214.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 101_2281_zps97951214.jpg"/>[/url]