Author Topic: NGC cross overs of PCGS MS/PF 70s  (Read 6353 times)

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Offline Russ 736

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NGC cross overs of PCGS MS/PF 70s
« on: April 10, 2014, 12:46:35 PM »
I started a new thread because I want nothing to do with the " nightmare " thread. This is just a report to the forum members on my results when trying the new NGC 70's cross over rules. I submitted 9 coins for cross over. 7 were 70s 2 were 69s. I own 6 of these coins and I submitted 3 for a Chinese Dealer who is also a good friend. I mention this just to show that the coins came from different areas and grading periods at PCGS. None of them passed. I am disappointed but it isn't the first time and I'm sure it won't be the last. I would have thought the number of 70s submitted would have yielded at least 1 or 2 70s. I would be interested in hearing from others on the forum if they have tried to cross over from PCGS 70s to NGC.

Russ

Offline poconopenn

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Re: NGC cross overs of PCGS MS/PF 70s
« Reply #1 on: April 10, 2014, 02:06:13 PM »
Please provide the dates of those PCGS graded coins. There is a significant premium difference between pre-2000 and post-2000 coin for NGC and PCGS graded coin, especially MS70. IMO, NGC may treat cross over of pre-2000 different from post-2000 coin.

Offline Russ 736

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Re: NGC cross overs of PCGS MS/PF 70s
« Reply #2 on: April 10, 2014, 07:02:04 PM »
 The break down of dates is as follows:
3-1995 S5Y Panda's
2-2009 S10Y Panda's
2-2010 S10Y Panda's
1-2003 S10Y Panda's
1- 1992 PF G25Y Panda

I guess I am just being simple but I would have hoped that NGC would judge these coins based on the quality of the coin and the date would have no bearing on situation at all.

Russ

Offline Contrapunctus

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Re: NGC cross overs of PCGS MS/PF 70s
« Reply #3 on: April 11, 2014, 06:43:31 AM »
I guess I am just being simple but I would have hoped that NGC would judge these coins based on the quality of the coin and the date would have no bearing on situation at all.

Russ

In this harsh and realistic world we live in, you can't afford to be too simple. It would do you no good.

Take my sincere and frank advice: Never ever send any graded coins for crossover or even regrading. And buy only already graded coins in PCGS or NGC slabs.

Offline Pandagongzi

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Re: NGC cross overs of PCGS MS/PF 70s
« Reply #4 on: April 11, 2014, 12:44:14 PM »
It's very hard to get 70's from NGC these days unless you are a big dealer.  Lots of 70's NGC graded couple of years ago won't even get 70 any more.  If you don't believe me,  just crack few and send to NGC for regrade.  ;)

Offline Contrapunctus

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Re: NGC cross overs of PCGS MS/PF 70s
« Reply #5 on: April 11, 2014, 12:50:33 PM »
It's very hard to get 70's from NGC these days unless you are a big dealer.  Lots of 70's NGC graded couple of years ago won't even get 70 any more.  If you don't believe me,  just crack few and send to NGC for regrade.  ;)

I was spot on! :scared:

No wonder those 2014 medals sent via Smithsonian Institution all came back 70s! N22

Offline Mirkkanen

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Re: NGC cross overs of PCGS MS/PF 70s
« Reply #6 on: April 11, 2014, 02:27:23 PM »
Opinion.

One out of every 8-10 coins I send in to NGC seems to be graded a 70. In my last submission, I had just as many 70s as 68s.

Newly minted coins have the best chance to achieve 70 grades. Minting technology has improved and these coins haven't been mishandled by multiple owners or rattled through multiple USPS transits.

I was spot on! :scared:

No wonder those 2014 medals sent via Smithsonian Institution all came back 70s! N22

Offline Pandagongzi

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Re: NGC cross overs of PCGS MS/PF 70s
« Reply #7 on: April 11, 2014, 05:01:29 PM »
Opinion.

One out of every 8-10 coins I send in to NGC seems to be graded a 70. In my last submission, I had just as many 70s as 68s.

Newly minted coins have the best chance to achieve 70 grades. Minting technology has improved and these coins haven't been mishandled by multiple owners or rattled through multiple USPS transits.


How many coins do you send to NGC per year?  Is your data based on 1 invoice to NGC?

Offline Mirkkanen

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Re: NGC cross overs of PCGS MS/PF 70s
« Reply #8 on: April 11, 2014, 05:12:19 PM »
I've sent about 20 coins to NGC for each of the past 2-3 years. Approx 50 coins in total.

I've gotten 6 70 grades, 4 within the past 12 months, on coins dated 1985-1996. No newly minted coins have been submitted by me, although I recently sold a 2011 1/10th to a friend in Canada who promptly submitted it to NGC and got a 70 grade after sending it to NCS (possibly unnecessarily).

It is a small sample size, but the data is there. Regular folks like you and I can get 70 grades too. Please not that I now ONLY send gold coins into NGC. Silver, it seems to me, grades lower.

Offline KeyDate1/2ozPandas

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Re: NGC cross overs of PCGS MS/PF 70s
« Reply #9 on: April 11, 2014, 06:24:16 PM »
Regular folks like you and I can get 70 grades too. Please not that I now ONLY send gold coins into NGC. Silver, it seems to me, grades lower.

My experience is dealers and collectors do equally well with NGC, what is more important is quality of coins, conservation and how you submit your coins (in brand new flips out of OMP).  I submitted to NGC as a collector club member from 2007-2011, then in the spring of 2011 converted to a dealer member, during both periods I submitted roughly the same number of coins and my 70 yield is very similar.

What often causes confusion among newer submitters is the lack of recognition that "size matters", larger coins 1/2oz+ tend to be much harder to get a 70 grade, say 2-3% probability, while smaller sizes 1/20-1/4oz tend to be easier 6-8%.  Also silver tends to be harder than gold for a given size, so for 1oz silver may only yield 1-2% 70s.  Also silver coins are often purchased by dealers in bulk (50-300 at a time), as a result the best ones are submitted by the dealers for grading and ones that are left "rejects" often show up on ebay and at shows in OMP.  These comments are based on coins dated 1982-2006, I don't deal with newer issues so can't really comment there.

Reason Mirk has done well is he focuses on 1/20 and 1/10 for which 10% yields are possible and he most likely pre-screens coins before submitting, meaning he only sends the best coins in for grading and anything that looks 68ish is sold as is, rather than wasting money on grading.  

Crossovers are entirely different matter, prior to 2013 NGC would crossover close to 90% of PCGS coins in 69 grade that didn't show signs of slab toning, hazing, greening and other issues that PCGS slab coins may develop.  During the same time PCGS would cross over 60-80% of NGC coins into their slabs.  Then last year PCGS grade distributions started to rise (more 69 and 70s awarded) and NGC crossover of PCGS coins began to decrease from close to 90% down to 40%-50%, while PCGS crossover of NGC coins began to increase close to 80-90%.

The new introduction of 70s crossover is too new to understand probabilities yet, but I am not surprised that NGC didn't crossover some of PCGS coins, especially considering NGC coins are trading at 10%+ premiums to PCGS in similar grades.

Offline SANDAC

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Re: NGC cross overs of PCGS MS/PF 70s
« Reply #10 on: April 11, 2014, 06:34:13 PM »
You did better than I, Mirk.  I submitted about 250 coins over last 2.5 years.  All except 3 are year 2000 or prior.  I have 17 graded 70, 7 gold, 10 silver.  Of the three post-2000 coins, one of them is graded 70.  I'm a small collector and collector only, haven't sold a single MCC, yet.  So small collectors can get 70 as well.  

The very recent MCC should have high percentage of 70, 2013 expo medal is a notable exception, but even big boy like Smithsonian Institution with year 2014 coins submission got PF 69 (3794895-015) and even PF 65/66 (Gem proof) (3794894-002)

edit: Having read KDP's excellent post, I can confirm all my gold 70 are 1/10 size.  All my silver 70 are from Historical Figures and Invention&Discovery series--medium size silver coins.

Offline Contrapunctus

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Re: NGC cross overs of PCGS MS/PF 70s
« Reply #11 on: April 11, 2014, 07:56:38 PM »
My opinion and experience...

A decade ago, I was buying raw and OMP coins for collection. Didn't know about grading and all that stuff. I first heard PCGS have stricter grading standards, that's why I started sending coins to NGC over span of a few years.

My results I received from NGC:
(on top of the unpleasant experiences which I have shared in another thread)

Old coins (> 100 years old) - all came back details. Never a numeric grade.

Modern coins (dated from 1980s onwards) - all came back mostly MS/PR67, 68 and once in a while 69. Never a perfect 70.

Then I switched to PCGS a few years ago and I got better grades like 68, 69. Still never a 70. But I never had a problem with PCGS slabs like distorted prong, dirt particles inside slab, fingerprint on coin inside slab, milk spots after grading...etc.

Offline Mirkkanen

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Re: NGC cross overs of PCGS MS/PF 70s
« Reply #12 on: April 12, 2014, 02:22:37 AM »
My opinion and experience...

A decade ago, I was buying raw and OMP coins for collection. Didn't know about grading and all that stuff. I first heard PCGS have stricter grading standards, that's why I started sending coins to NGC over span of a few years.

My results I received from NGC:
(on top of the unpleasant experiences which I have shared in another thread)

Old coins (> 100 years old) - all came back details. Never a numeric grade.

Modern coins (dated from 1980s onwards) - all came back mostly MS/PR67, 68 and once in a while 69. Never a perfect 70.

Then I switched to PCGS a few years ago and I got better grades like 68, 69. Still never a 70. But I never had a problem with PCGS slabs like distorted prong, dirt particles inside slab, fingerprint on coin inside slab, milk spots after grading...etc.

Contra, have you noticed any of your coins starting to show discoloration in their PCGS slabs over time? I'm referring to gold coins. I see several coins on eBay in PCGS slabs which have a reddish hue to them . . . the entire coin is red, not spotted. This scares me. I've never seen this with a coin in an NGC slab.

*I collect coins in both slabs, however 80+% of my coins are NGC*

Offline PandaCollector

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Re: NGC cross overs of PCGS MS/PF 70s
« Reply #13 on: April 12, 2014, 03:44:34 AM »
Contra, have you noticed any of your coins starting to show discoloration in their PCGS slabs over time? I'm referring to gold coins. I see several coins on eBay in PCGS slabs which have a reddish hue to them . . . the entire coin is red, not spotted. This scares me. I've never seen this with a coin in an NGC slab.

*I collect coins in both slabs, however 80+% of my coins are NGC*

I have two like that. I actually love the even toning. It reminds me of an old copper coin with a beautiful warm red glow.

Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
China Pricepedia
www.pandacollector.com

Offline Contrapunctus

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Re: NGC cross overs of PCGS MS/PF 70s
« Reply #14 on: April 12, 2014, 04:07:43 AM »
Contra, have you noticed any of your coins starting to show discoloration in their PCGS slabs over time? I'm referring to gold coins. I see several coins on eBay in PCGS slabs which have a reddish hue to them . . . the entire coin is red, not spotted. This scares me. I've never seen this with a coin in an NGC slab.

*I collect coins in both slabs, however 80+% of my coins are NGC*

Old or modern coins?

Appearing on my modern silver coins, I do have a couple of faint milk hues (not milk spots) in PCGS slabs and milk spots in NGC slabs that were slabbed a few years old. 1 modern silver coin that was spotless before grading and had milk spots all over, that was NGC slab. My modern gold coin (1 only) is still spotless in PCGS slabs and old coins in NGC slabsare still in original toned & aged condition which have not worsen.