Author Topic: NGC grading Nightmare!!! (Warning: Panda abuse)  (Read 21182 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Hippanda

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 865
  • Karma: 76
Re: NGC grading Nightmare!!! (Warning: Panda abuse)
« Reply #15 on: March 19, 2014, 01:26:12 AM »
?

Am I the only one who prefers the apparent richer tone of the pre- NCS  69 Tiger? ( if the photo's coloring is "true") ?


Can NCS process "wash out" desirable characteristics?
"He who speaks without modesty will find it difficult to make his words good."

Confucius

Offline KeyDate1/2ozPandas

  • Supporter
  • Trade Count: (+15)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 908
  • Karma: 202
  • Gender: Male
    • China Mint Coins, LLC
Re: NGC grading Nightmare!!! (Warning: Panda abuse)
« Reply #16 on: March 19, 2014, 01:32:39 AM »
Now I only send to PCGS.

No wonder collectors mostly prefer PCGS...

For older pre 1970s coins PCGS is preferable, but for post 1979 NGC is the dominate player in Chinese coins.  

Prior to 2011 all PCGS gold and silver panda coins commanded a premium of 5-20% relative to NGC mostly likely due to lower graded populations. Then in late 2010  they instituted a max $1000 guaranty for non-secure plus holdered coins, which shocked many investors and collectors.  Also at around the same time NGC kicked out PCGS coins from its registry.  That was the beginning of the end for the premium for PCGS coins, slowly NGC coins began to command a premium, today NGC coins of similar grade from 1979-2006 command 5-10% premium relative to PCGS.  

No doubt PCGS is fighting back, with new labels that include mint designations using Chinese characters, variety designations, better holders, offices in Shanghai/HK and introduction of conservations services.  So far all these new efforts haven't paid off in terms of premiums relative to NGC, but who knows what will happen in the future.  Both grading companies are walking a tight rope to set themselves apart and any missteps by one can change the tide quickly to the other.  

Offline KeyDate1/2ozPandas

  • Supporter
  • Trade Count: (+15)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 908
  • Karma: 202
  • Gender: Male
    • China Mint Coins, LLC
Re: NGC grading Nightmare!!! (Warning: Panda abuse)
« Reply #17 on: March 19, 2014, 01:35:24 AM »
?

Am I the only one who prefers the apparent richer tone of the pre- NCS  69? ( if the photo's coloring is "true") ?


Can NCS process "wash out" desirable characteristics?

If you are talking about the piefort coin, it went from a lead color to silver.  As for the tiger the photo was taken under different light, but the coin looked identical in tone and color before and after, only the toning spot become a little lighter. 

Offline Contrapunctus

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 397
  • Karma: -42
Re: NGC grading Nightmare!!! (Warning: Panda abuse)
« Reply #18 on: March 19, 2014, 01:45:55 AM »
Let me tell you about my NCS experience.  Prior to March of 2008, NCS would charge roughly 5% for conservation services with a $25 minimum plus a grading fee, almost identical to what they charge now.  At the time almost no one submitted modern coins to NCS including myself, because it simply didn't make sense relative to price improvement one could get for MS69 vs as is coin.  Then in March of 2008 they introduced a new tier for modern coins $22.50 for NCS conservation with NGC grading for coins below $3000 value, suddenly I went from 0% submission to NCS to 100% immediately.  Knowing that NCS could fix almost any coin for only $22.50 opened up a world of opportunities for me, because I could buy coins that others passed on and I could pick it up cheap, but after conservation they would come back MS69-70. 

Below are before and after pictures of 1979 1oz silver piefort which I bought not even knowing it was piefort, I thought it was matte coin because it was so dull and it had some green mold on the back at the three o clock position.  I paid $30 to have it conserved and graded, since I valued it as matte coin at the time and look at the result after NCS, the profit on just this one coin has paid for all my NCS fees for the last 6 years and counting.  If it wasn't for my awareness of NCS I would have never bought such an ugly coin, I bid on it as though it was MS65-MS66 matte at best, but with NCS I thought it could get to MS67-MS68.

The second example is 1996 1oz Russian tiger, it was graded NGC PF69, it had toning spot (back right leg) so I sent it to NCS to remove it and paid $30, take look at what came back a pop 1 PF70 with toning spot still there.  I have had roughly 1 slabbed coin upgraded every other year, always 1oz in size.

Despite these great outcomes I have had some bad luck also, typically with smaller 1/20 sizes where coins came back MS68 and the entire fee was a loss.  Now with NCS fees higher than in previous years, the service makes the most sense for 1/2oz-1oz gold and 1oz silver coins. 

Here, we're not talking about NGC grading higher or cleaning your coins.

We're talking about moral and ethnic lapses like having your coins scratched, damaged, dirtied after slabbing while before slabbing, coins were undamaged.

Offline Contrapunctus

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 397
  • Karma: -42
Re: NGC grading Nightmare!!! (Warning: Panda abuse)
« Reply #19 on: March 19, 2014, 01:50:38 AM »
I would like to know specifically:

1) Is the working environment at NGC clean and dust-free?

2) At NGC, why isn't there a senior grader to perform a final check on the slabs AFTER they were graded by junior graders and slabbed, like PCGS have in their process?

Quote
Most of the slabs are dirty with some dusts/black particles on the outside. it requires wiping, not a big issue
BUT...
some of these black particles are actually Inside the NGC slab, it seems that these coins are slabbed in an unclean environment

Offline KeyDate1/2ozPandas

  • Supporter
  • Trade Count: (+15)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 908
  • Karma: 202
  • Gender: Male
    • China Mint Coins, LLC
Re: NGC grading Nightmare!!! (Warning: Panda abuse)
« Reply #20 on: March 19, 2014, 02:25:46 AM »

We're talking about moral and ethnic lapses like having your coins scratched, damaged, dirtied after slabbing while before slabbing, coins were undamaged.

If you submit your coins in 2.5x2.5 non-pvc flips out of the OMP packaging you have far less chance of having your coins scratched or damaged as less handling will be done by receiving staff.  No grading staff member has moral or ethical lapses, they will lose their jobs if they screw up too often.  Watch the video below, they have cameras everywhere.

As for dirt there are two types issues mentioned here, there is cardboard dust on the outside of the slab, which is common on every NGC submission because they use cardboard boxes with cardboard dividers that shed card dust.  PCGS doesn't have this issue because they ship in PCGS plastic box.  As for dirt inside the slab that is relatively uncommon, maybe 1-2% of the slabs I have seen have lint or some debris inside the slab.  This is a problem for both NGC and PCGS, but again is limited to 1-2% of slabs I have received, I just send them back and they fix them for free or take them to major show and they fix it usually within a day for free.

NGC does do quality control after slabbing, watch this video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ePvVrv0sIeE

Offline PandaCollector

  • Supporter
  • Trade Count: (+5)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2536
  • Karma: 83
  • Gender: Male
    • Pandacollector.com
Re: NGC grading Nightmare!!! (Warning: Panda abuse)
« Reply #21 on: March 19, 2014, 03:05:46 AM »
Absolutely
I would like to know specifically:

1) Is the working environment at NGC clean and dust-free?

2) At NGC, why isn't there a senior grader to perform a final check on the slabs AFTER they were graded by junior graders and slabbed, like PCGS have in their process?


1) Yes

2) Yes there is a senior grader who reviews the grades at NGC.

Both companies have this part of the process down pat. I have huge respect for the senior graders at both.

Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
China Pricepedia
www.pandacollector.com

Offline Contrapunctus

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 397
  • Karma: -42
Re: NGC grading Nightmare!!! (Warning: Panda abuse)
« Reply #22 on: March 19, 2014, 06:14:24 AM »
Absolutely
1) Yes

2) Yes there is a senior grader who reviews the grades at NGC.

Both companies have this part of the process down pat. I have huge respect for the senior graders at both.

Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
China Pricepedia
www.pandacollector.com

Then my next question would be, why the lapses happened? Not once, not twice, not only me.

I don't know about you people, but my trust and respect for NGC have been greatly discounted and it's not going to recover anyhow. Never will I send anything to NGC!

Offline Dr650rob

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 179
  • Karma: 9
  • Gender: Male
Re: NGC grading Nightmare!!! (Warning: Panda abuse)
« Reply #23 on: March 19, 2014, 05:04:02 PM »
Dr650rob - I been selling 100+/month 1/20oz graded NGC MS69 in the last three months including 15+ 1985 1/20oz, unfortunately your request came after others bought me out almost all my extra coins. 

While, I stand 100% behind my comments above about the merits of grading, one thing that I  should acknowledge is 1/20oz has the worst reward/cost ratio for grading - meaning that on a percentage basis the improvement in value from grading a 1/20oz relative to percent of cost to cover grading fee is least profitable.  It intuitively makes sense:

1 oz, $2000 value, if it grades MS69 value increases by $280, cost to grade $14 --> reward/cost = 20x return on grading
1/20 oz $140 value, if it grades MS69 value increases by $42, cost to grade $14 --> reward/cost = 3x return on grading

The simplifying assumption that I made above is that the MS69 and MS70 yields for the two sizes is the same, even after you account for those differences, 1oz size still has a significant advantage to 1/20 oz.  Despite this disadvantage for 1/20oz I still get almost every 1/20 I receive graded because I need them for 5 piece sets, but if I didn't make sets I would probably pass on buying 1/20oz size simply because of the storage challenges and low return on grading.  This is one of the reason you almost never see me carry any BU silver pandas, same issue with storage and low return on grading. 



Ya I understand and I appreciate you buying,grading and selling the 1/20ths for a good price
If I'm looking for a coin i always look at you site first, your one of the best sellers in the biz

Offline PandaCollector

  • Supporter
  • Trade Count: (+5)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2536
  • Karma: 83
  • Gender: Male
    • Pandacollector.com
Re: NGC grading Nightmare!!! (Warning: Panda abuse)
« Reply #24 on: March 19, 2014, 08:33:07 PM »
Then my next question would be, why the lapses happened? Not once, not twice, not only me.

I don't know about you people, but my trust and respect for NGC have been greatly discounted and it's not going to recover anyhow. Never will I send anything to NGC!

Contrapunctus,

I offer the following comments in a spirit of friendship only to point out where I feel your assumptions may have led you astray:

Thinking that my coins are in good condition (no toning) I will just waste around $10 a coin, if I were to submit to NCS-NGC.
So in the end, I decided to send these coins directly to NGC, 25 coins in total. My first submission to direct NGC


Your assumption that your coins were in good or maybe excellent condition because they were OMP is, imo, off-base. OMP coins can often have problems. Sometimes NCS can correct these but you chose to not spend the extra dollars (a fair choice). The downside of this decision was that you didn't benefit from NCS' expertise.

Fast forward to 2 weeks ago, I received a shocking result, 2 of my coins are graded as "NGC Details Grading"
1 x 2004 Beijing Expo - surface hairlines
1 x 2012 Panda - Residue
It is shocking because all coins were checked thouroughly using magnifier before submission
Also, coins will never ever ever get any hairline scratches if they are inside a capsule and sealed in an OMP


It is not true that OMP coins cannot have hairlines. Coins sometimes pick up hairlines during minting and packaging. I have seen it. Residue can come from handling at the Mint or the OMP plastic. I will repeat my quote from Nick Brown, " Nobody can accurately and consistently predict the grades of OMP coins." It's just too hard to detect flaws through the layer(s) of plastic. You substituted your own judgement about your coins' condition in OMP for NCS seeing the coins in the open. I consider it incredibly unlikely that your coins picked up residue or hairlines in the NGC grading room. I can say the same for PCGS. I have spent time in the grading rooms of both NGC and PCGS. Both companies handle customers coins in clean conditions and with the utmost care.

It's certainly your choice to not patronize a company but in avoiding NGC you are denying yourself the services of the leading grading company in modern Chinese coins. As both a collector and a consultant they are the company I choose to work with and to grade my own coins.

Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
China Pricepedia
www.pandacollector.com

Offline SANDAC

  • Supporter
  • Global Moderator
  • Trade Count: (+8)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2264
  • Karma: 118
Re: NGC grading Nightmare!!! (Warning: Panda abuse)
« Reply #25 on: March 19, 2014, 10:23:48 PM »
A quick clarification:
While it is clear that Contrapunctus has a grudge against NGC and voiced it repeatly, the particular post quoted by Contrapunctus in the beginning of the thread was made by by "musemellow" on Panda Exchange on Nov 28 2012. 
http://pandaxe.com/showthread.php?134-Share-NGC-grading-Nightmare-(Warning-Panda-abuse)&s=3abb527ab82f87c2baae7522686da3fa
musemellow was in communication with NGC and plan to post follow-up but never did.  His last visit to Panda Exchange was June 6 2013.  It is an old post and a few mistakes do happen over a sufficient long period of time.

I myself do take coins out of OMP, photograph them (it is the best time to get the clearest photos), and put them in new 2x2 mylar flips, just as Keydatepanda recommended.  This way I have a clear record of what I've submitted.  Personally I've had no problem with NGC/NCS mishandling my coins.

Offline Contrapunctus

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 397
  • Karma: -42
Re: NGC grading Nightmare!!! (Warning: Panda abuse)
« Reply #26 on: March 22, 2014, 07:03:18 AM »
A quick clarification:
While it is clear that Contrapunctus has a grudge against NGC and voiced it repeatly, the particular post quoted by Contrapunctus in the beginning of the thread was made by by "musemellow" on Panda Exchange on Nov 28 2012. 
http://pandaxe.com/showthread.php?134-Share-NGC-grading-Nightmare-(Warning-Panda-abuse)&s=3abb527ab82f87c2baae7522686da3fa
musemellow was in communication with NGC and plan to post follow-up but never did.  His last visit to Panda Exchange was June 6 2013.  It is an old post and a few mistakes do happen over a sufficient long period of time.

I myself do take coins out of OMP, photograph them (it is the best time to get the clearest photos), and put them in new 2x2 mylar flips, just as Keydatepanda recommended.  This way I have a clear record of what I've submitted.  Personally I've had no problem with NGC/NCS mishandling my coins.

A grudge against NGC? Such a harsh comment. *Ouch* :(

Then all those people who shared their bad experiences with NGC are deemed to have grudges against that grading company?

Isn't this forum "free to share knowledge and express opinion with other collectors"? I'm sure other people would want to know why the lapses occurred as they aren't minor, isolated incidents. People can get lucky once or twice but that doesn't mean the lapses won't happen to their future submissions. We're talking about long-term business relationships here.

Please be more embracing to alternate opinions, views and experiences to achieve diversity.

Offline Contrapunctus

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 397
  • Karma: -42
Re: NGC grading Nightmare!!! (Warning: Panda abuse)
« Reply #27 on: March 22, 2014, 07:09:22 AM »
For older pre 1970s coins PCGS is preferable, but for post 1979 NGC is the dominate player in Chinese coins. 


Is there a distinction? Why is that so?

Offline jc888888888

  • Supporter
  • Trade Count: (+14)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1285
  • Karma: 22
Re: NGC grading Nightmare!!! (Warning: Panda abuse)
« Reply #28 on: March 22, 2014, 11:48:14 AM »
I am going to really generalize here: most people who really moan about NGC have had a bad result on 1 go around usually there 1st:) You take a guy like Arif  who has graded thousands of coins he will tell you that after about the first 500 :) you start to realize what makes a coin a 68 or 67 that you thought was for sure a 69 :)  i have graded a fair amount and it just comes to you during the process of education

Offline Contrapunctus

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 397
  • Karma: -42
Re: NGC grading Nightmare!!! (Warning: Panda abuse)
« Reply #29 on: March 24, 2014, 03:01:59 PM »
I am going to really generalize here: most people who really moan about NGC have had a bad result on 1 go around usually there 1st:) You take a guy like Arif  who has graded thousands of coins he will tell you that after about the first 500 :) you start to realize what makes a coin a 68 or 67 that you thought was for sure a 69 :)  i have graded a fair amount and it just comes to you during the process of education

This thread's topic is not about the grade, it's about lapses like dirt particles in slab.