Author Topic: NGC grading Nightmare!!! (Warning: Panda abuse)  (Read 21179 times)

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Offline Contrapunctus

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NGC grading Nightmare!!! (Warning: Panda abuse)
« on: March 18, 2014, 12:08:29 PM »
I would like to share the following incident from another forum regarding poor grading experience with NGC. It is not my incident and I'm not related to the author.

Source: http://pandaxe.com/archive/index.php/t-134.html

Below the dotted line are not my words anymore...

----------------------------------------------------------------
Hello all,

I want to share some experience with my recent panda grading submission to NGC, because I think everyone deserve to know that there are risks involving with NGC grading

About 2 months ago, I have silver commemorative pandas ('04 Beijing, '05 ICBC etc) and 1/20 oz gold in OMP. These pandas are in good condition, no toning or scratches, still sealed in their OMP.
At that time, there are 2 options, which was sending to NCS-NGC, or directly to NGC

NCS claimed that they won't conserve a coin unless it is required

NCS will first evaluate every coin to see if any conservation work is appropriate. Although there can be a request as to work needed to be performed, NCS reserves the right to make the final decision as to what work needs to be performed, if any.

Thinking that my coins are in good condition (no toning) I will just waste around $10 a coin, if I were to submit to NCS-NGC.
So in the end, I decided to send these coins directly to NGC, 25 coins in total. My first submission to direct NGC

Fast forward to 2 weeks ago, I received a shocking result, 2 of my coins are graded as "NGC Details Grading"
1 x 2004 Beijing Expo - surface hairlines
1 x 2012 Panda - Residue
It is shocking because all coins were checked thouroughly using magnifier before submission
Also, coins will never ever ever get any hairline scratches if they are inside a capsule and sealed in an OMP
Unless the coin is resealed. I may not have a keen eye for a 70 as Yennus, but it's easy to tell the difference between heavily scratched coin and a mint one

While other coins were graded as 68 and 69 (almost 50:50 ratio!!). these coins are practically the same coins that I sent to NCS earlier this year that received ms 68-70 (5-10% 68, mostly 69)
They are in similar condition, same panda year (2004 beijing and 2005 ICBC), purchased at the same time, from same dealer

Prior to this, NGC haven exceptional at their job (grading, encapsulating, etc) So in the end, I came to a conclusion that I was the one at fault for not observing these coins closer before submitting...

Today, I received USPS parcel from NGC
When I open this NGC parcel, it's really disappointing
Most of the slabs are dirty with some dusts/black particles on the outside. it requires wiping, not a big issue
BUT...
some of these black particles are actually Inside the NGC slab, it seems that these coins are slabbed in an unclean environment
4 of 25 coins are affected by this

One of the example
http://i927.photobucket.com/albums/ad114/musemellow/IMG_1174.png

Fingerprints on some silver pandas (quite common, but acceptable to some degree)

The nightmare doesn't end there...
"NGC details grading" coins are return in a flip coin plastic, photos below

2012 Panda - Residue
http://i927.photobucket.com/albums/ad114/musemellow/IMG_1166.png

There are black marks across coin

We can't see more details from the pic, but using magnifier it seems that someone used a sharp object on the coin surface
Coin was purchased from one of Silverstacker site sponsor in a good condition
It's really frustating knowing that you sent a coin in a perfect condition, and it is returned in such condition:mad:

2004 Beijing Expo panda - Surface hairlines

http://i927.photobucket.com/albums/ad114/musemellow/IMG_1165.png

Panda side..sorry for the bad image, heavily scratched on highlighted area...

http://i927.photobucket.com/albums/ad114/musemellow/IMG_1175.jpg

Temple side is just completely abused, up to a point that it is losing its gold plating
Again this won't ever happen to an OMP coin, even if it does happen any coins collectors without magnifier would've noticed it beforehand


Anyone else have similar issues with NGC?

I'm keen to get any feedbacks on how to respond this to NGC
Knowing that it will be my words against theirs, the only thing I can think of is to send NGC a complaint email hoping that they will do better job next time (if there is next time)

I know they do minor human errors sometimes..
Of course this case is just accidental, scratching the coin, unknown residue, dirty encapsulation, etc
Some may think it's just bad luck.
But, it is very difficult to send more coins to NGC knowing that they may *sabotage* these coins.making it in much worse condition than before it was sent to them

Would you send a sheet of 2000 mirror panda or any of your favorite coins in mint condition to NGC knowing that this could happen to your coins?:confused:

Thanks for reading,

MM

Offline Contrapunctus

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Re: NGC grading Nightmare!!! (Warning: Panda abuse)
« Reply #1 on: March 18, 2014, 12:21:12 PM »
Personally, I had my own share of unpleasant experiences with NGC, not once, not twice, so it's definitely not coincident. Details in this thread's page 14:
http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=9557.195

Till today, I've since STOPPED sending coins and medals to NGC for grading. Though I would still buy NGC graded slabs, I will examine the condition of the coin/medal inside very carefully before purchase. I do not trust NGC anymore!

Offline Pandaguy

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Re: NGC grading Nightmare!!! (Warning: Panda abuse)
« Reply #2 on: March 18, 2014, 01:24:02 PM »
Sorry to hear about your bad experiences. However, they are non uncommon. Human grading will always be a subjective entity, no matter what they say. However, carelessness by those we entrust is inexcusable. Many submitters take detailed photos prior to submission in order to counter any possible mishandling by the grading company. This is not a guaranty, but at least with the photos, you have a small leg to stand on. It might be worth it for you to purchase only graded slabs (as you mentioned) and let another submitter take the risks. You will pay more, but the peace of mind may be worth it.

Offline PandaCollector

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Re: NGC grading Nightmare!!! (Warning: Panda abuse)
« Reply #3 on: March 18, 2014, 04:52:46 PM »
I think there is one additional consideration: coins can be damaged or mishandled at the mints prior to being sealed. OMP does not always equal perfect condition. I have personally had OMP coins lose grading points due to hairlines and other damage. I've inspected sheets of OMP coins in which 8 out of 10 coins were compromised before they were sealed. Coins can also deteriorate inside their OMP as well. There is nothing a grading company can do about this except factor it into the grade. I don't blame the grading company for these problems. But that's just me.

One story from the late Nick Brown. He once bought a very valuable OMP coin that he said looked terrible in its OMP. He had very low expectations for its grade. After NCS completed their work it came back a PF-69. He marveled at the outcome because its appearance in the OMP was so deceptive. He always swore that nobody could accurately and consistently predict the grades of OMP coins. And he loved NCS. I still agree with him.

Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
China Pricepedia
www.pandacollector.com

Offline Dr650rob

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Re: NGC grading Nightmare!!! (Warning: Panda abuse)
« Reply #4 on: March 18, 2014, 05:35:19 PM »
I'm done sending coins to ncs/Ngc they totally screwed us by jacking up the price to $50 for coins under the $300 mark, which i wouldn't have know about if it wasn't for this forum
They didn't send any emails post anything about this before the 15th, which is bs
I got my coins there by the 15th it took 2 months to grade and luckily I must've wrote my cc exp date wrong because I gotta email saying the almost $400 payment for 6 1/20ths didn't go thru, I told them my submission papers said it was only $25(or $27) per coin, I was ready to flip out but the lady at the billing dept was too nice and changed from $50 to $25
I got decent grades but from now on I'll buy them already graded
It's just not worth it to pay $50 to put a 1/20 coin thru ncs/Ngc, I'd be screwed if it'd come back as a 68 or lower
It's just a major bummer they would do this to the people who can't afford $300+ gold coins
It was fun to buy a coin and send it in and wait to see if you get a good grade, but I guess that funs over
I know they were very backed up with submissions, so maybe that's why the errors/problems happend with MM's coins

Offline Pandaguy

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Re: NGC grading Nightmare!!! (Warning: Panda abuse)
« Reply #5 on: March 18, 2014, 05:48:28 PM »
I'm done sending coins to ncs/Ngc they totally screwed us by jacking up the price to $50 for coins under the $300 mark, which i wouldn't have know about if it wasn't for this forum
They didn't send any emails post anything about this before the 15th, which is bs
I got my coins there by the 15th it took 2 months to grade and luckily I must've wrote my cc exp date wrong because I gotta email saying the almost $400 payment for 6 1/20ths didn't go thru, I told them my submission papers said it was only $25(or $27) per coin, I was ready to flip out but the lady at the billing dept was too nice and changed from $50 to $25
I got decent grades but from now on I'll buy them already graded
It's just not worth it to pay $50 to put a 1/20 coin thru ncs/Ngc, I'd be screwed if it'd come back as a 68 or lower
It's just a major bummer they would do this to the people who can't afford $300+ gold coins
It was fun to buy a coin and send it in and wait to see if you get a good grade, but I guess that funs over
I know they were very backed up with submissions, so maybe that's why the errors/problems happend with MM's coins


Alot of other collectors share your sentiments. Hopefully, there will be power in numbers. If many collectors refuse to be ripped-off by NGC's new pricing structure and do not submit, hopefully, it will be felt on their bottom line and they may reconsider accommodating the little guy. In the meantime, calling and writing to complain to the executives is always beneficial.

Offline KeyDate1/2ozPandas

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Re: NGC grading Nightmare!!! (Warning: Panda abuse)
« Reply #6 on: March 18, 2014, 09:36:22 PM »
Getting OMP coins graded is always a value add proposition whether you are collector or dealer.  However, you have to keep three very important things in mind when you get coins graded, in order of importance:

1) The coins you are submitting must be fresh and unsearched - meaning someone bought the coins when they were issued, they kept them safe in one location, then sold all of them at one time and you bought them directly or through a brokered transaction.  Almost every coin that is sold as OMP via ebay, major auctions houses (those that offer both raw and graded coins) and major dealers (those that offer both raw and graded coins) are cherry picked or pre-screened, don't expect to buy these coins and get good results.  When I buy sight unseen from these sources I assume MS68 and make my offers accordingly, you should too. 

2) Success at grading requires law of large numbers, if you submit 25 coins a year it is a crap shoot whether you will be happy or disappointed.  Submit a 1000 coins a year, I guarantee you will be happy if item 1) above is satisfied. Even 100+ a year should yield on balance satisfactory results.

3) Submit your coins in brand new 2.5x2.5 non-pvc flips without any OMP plastic.  WHY?  Because you are more careful and skilled at removing a coin from a 20 year PVC pouch than any shipping clerk at NGC or PCGS.  Even worse is submitting coins in capsules in which the coins bounces back and forth (1992 proof is a great example).  I must admit when I started I used to submit coins in OMP and occasionally coins had signs of handling, now I rarely have a surprise handling issue.

I have had bad streaks here and there, but overall in any given year I am very happy ($$$) to pay ($) NGC tens of thousands to authenticate, grade and guaranty my coins. 

Offline Dr650rob

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Re: NGC grading Nightmare!!! (Warning: Panda abuse)
« Reply #7 on: March 18, 2014, 10:09:03 PM »
Keep it up key date, I'd love to buy some of those 20ths

Offline KeyDate1/2ozPandas

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Re: NGC grading Nightmare!!! (Warning: Panda abuse)
« Reply #8 on: March 18, 2014, 11:40:37 PM »
Dr650rob - I been selling 100+/month 1/20oz graded NGC MS69 in the last three months including 15+ 1985 1/20oz, unfortunately your request came after others bought me out almost all my extra coins. 

While, I stand 100% behind my comments above about the merits of grading, one thing that I  should acknowledge is 1/20oz has the worst reward/cost ratio for grading - meaning that on a percentage basis the improvement in value from grading a 1/20oz relative to percent of cost to cover grading fee is least profitable.  It intuitively makes sense:

1 oz, $2000 value, if it grades MS69 value increases by $280, cost to grade $14 --> reward/cost = 20x return on grading
1/20 oz $140 value, if it grades MS69 value increases by $42, cost to grade $14 --> reward/cost = 3x return on grading

The simplifying assumption that I made above is that the MS69 and MS70 yields for the two sizes is the same, even after you account for those differences, 1oz size still has a significant advantage to 1/20 oz.  Despite this disadvantage for 1/20oz I still get almost every 1/20 I receive graded because I need them for 5 piece sets, but if I didn't make sets I would probably pass on buying 1/20oz size simply because of the storage challenges and low return on grading.  This is one of the reason you almost never see me carry any BU silver pandas, same issue with storage and low return on grading. 


Offline Contrapunctus

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Re: NGC grading Nightmare!!! (Warning: Panda abuse)
« Reply #9 on: March 19, 2014, 12:33:40 AM »
Sorry to hear about your bad experiences. However, they are non uncommon. Human grading will always be a subjective entity, no matter what they say. However, carelessness by those we entrust is inexcusable. Many submitters take detailed photos prior to submission in order to counter any possible mishandling by the grading company. This is not a guaranty, but at least with the photos, you have a small leg to stand on. It might be worth it for you to purchase only graded slabs (as you mentioned) and let another submitter take the risks. You will pay more, but the peace of mind may be worth it.

Now I only send to PCGS.

No wonder collectors mostly prefer PCGS...

Offline KeyDate1/2ozPandas

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Re: NGC grading Nightmare!!! (Warning: Panda abuse)
« Reply #10 on: March 19, 2014, 12:35:42 AM »
Let me tell you about my NCS experience.  Prior to March of 2008, NCS would charge roughly 5% for conservation services with a $25 minimum plus a grading fee, almost identical to what they charge now.  At the time almost no one submitted modern coins to NCS including myself, because it simply didn't make sense relative to price improvement one could get for MS69 vs as is coin.  Then in March of 2008 they introduced a new tier for modern coins $22.50 for NCS conservation with NGC grading for coins below $3000 value, suddenly I went from 0% submission to NCS to 100% immediately.  Knowing that NCS could fix almost any coin for only $22.50 opened up a world of opportunities for me, because I could buy coins that others passed on and I could pick it up cheap, but after conservation they would come back MS69-70. 

Below are before and after pictures of 1979 1oz silver piefort which I bought not even knowing it was piefort, I thought it was matte coin because it was so dull and it had some green mold on the back at the three o clock position.  I paid $30 to have it conserved and graded, since I valued it as matte coin at the time and look at the result after NCS, the profit on just this one coin has paid for all my NCS fees for the last 6 years and counting.  If it wasn't for my awareness of NCS I would have never bought such an ugly coin, I bid on it as though it was MS65-MS66 matte at best, but with NCS I thought it could get to MS67-MS68.

The second example is 1996 1oz Russian tiger, it was graded NGC PF69, it had toning spot (back right leg) so I sent it to NCS to remove it and paid $30, take look at what came back a pop 1 PF70 with toning spot still there.  I have had roughly 1 slabbed coin upgraded every other year, always 1oz in size.

Despite these great outcomes I have had some bad luck also, typically with smaller 1/20 sizes where coins came back MS68 and the entire fee was a loss.  Now with NCS fees higher than in previous years, the service makes the most sense for 1/2oz-1oz gold and 1oz silver coins. 

Offline KeyDate1/2ozPandas

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Re: NGC grading Nightmare!!! (Warning: Panda abuse)
« Reply #11 on: March 19, 2014, 12:38:54 AM »
Front after NCS

Offline KeyDate1/2ozPandas

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Re: NGC grading Nightmare!!! (Warning: Panda abuse)
« Reply #12 on: March 19, 2014, 12:44:37 AM »
Back after NCS. Notice small spot at 3 o clock position, it used to be green mold.

Offline KeyDate1/2ozPandas

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Re: NGC grading Nightmare!!! (Warning: Panda abuse)
« Reply #13 on: March 19, 2014, 12:46:42 AM »
Toning spot on right back leg pre-NCS.

Offline KeyDate1/2ozPandas

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Re: NGC grading Nightmare!!! (Warning: Panda abuse)
« Reply #14 on: March 19, 2014, 12:54:09 AM »
Toning spot still present post-NCS, but grade improved.

Offline Hippanda

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Re: NGC grading Nightmare!!! (Warning: Panda abuse)
« Reply #15 on: March 19, 2014, 01:26:12 AM »
?

Am I the only one who prefers the apparent richer tone of the pre- NCS  69 Tiger? ( if the photo's coloring is "true") ?


Can NCS process "wash out" desirable characteristics?
"He who speaks without modesty will find it difficult to make his words good."

Confucius

Offline KeyDate1/2ozPandas

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Re: NGC grading Nightmare!!! (Warning: Panda abuse)
« Reply #16 on: March 19, 2014, 01:32:39 AM »
Now I only send to PCGS.

No wonder collectors mostly prefer PCGS...

For older pre 1970s coins PCGS is preferable, but for post 1979 NGC is the dominate player in Chinese coins.  

Prior to 2011 all PCGS gold and silver panda coins commanded a premium of 5-20% relative to NGC mostly likely due to lower graded populations. Then in late 2010  they instituted a max $1000 guaranty for non-secure plus holdered coins, which shocked many investors and collectors.  Also at around the same time NGC kicked out PCGS coins from its registry.  That was the beginning of the end for the premium for PCGS coins, slowly NGC coins began to command a premium, today NGC coins of similar grade from 1979-2006 command 5-10% premium relative to PCGS.  

No doubt PCGS is fighting back, with new labels that include mint designations using Chinese characters, variety designations, better holders, offices in Shanghai/HK and introduction of conservations services.  So far all these new efforts haven't paid off in terms of premiums relative to NGC, but who knows what will happen in the future.  Both grading companies are walking a tight rope to set themselves apart and any missteps by one can change the tide quickly to the other.  

Offline KeyDate1/2ozPandas

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Re: NGC grading Nightmare!!! (Warning: Panda abuse)
« Reply #17 on: March 19, 2014, 01:35:24 AM »
?

Am I the only one who prefers the apparent richer tone of the pre- NCS  69? ( if the photo's coloring is "true") ?


Can NCS process "wash out" desirable characteristics?

If you are talking about the piefort coin, it went from a lead color to silver.  As for the tiger the photo was taken under different light, but the coin looked identical in tone and color before and after, only the toning spot become a little lighter. 

Offline Contrapunctus

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Re: NGC grading Nightmare!!! (Warning: Panda abuse)
« Reply #18 on: March 19, 2014, 01:45:55 AM »
Let me tell you about my NCS experience.  Prior to March of 2008, NCS would charge roughly 5% for conservation services with a $25 minimum plus a grading fee, almost identical to what they charge now.  At the time almost no one submitted modern coins to NCS including myself, because it simply didn't make sense relative to price improvement one could get for MS69 vs as is coin.  Then in March of 2008 they introduced a new tier for modern coins $22.50 for NCS conservation with NGC grading for coins below $3000 value, suddenly I went from 0% submission to NCS to 100% immediately.  Knowing that NCS could fix almost any coin for only $22.50 opened up a world of opportunities for me, because I could buy coins that others passed on and I could pick it up cheap, but after conservation they would come back MS69-70. 

Below are before and after pictures of 1979 1oz silver piefort which I bought not even knowing it was piefort, I thought it was matte coin because it was so dull and it had some green mold on the back at the three o clock position.  I paid $30 to have it conserved and graded, since I valued it as matte coin at the time and look at the result after NCS, the profit on just this one coin has paid for all my NCS fees for the last 6 years and counting.  If it wasn't for my awareness of NCS I would have never bought such an ugly coin, I bid on it as though it was MS65-MS66 matte at best, but with NCS I thought it could get to MS67-MS68.

The second example is 1996 1oz Russian tiger, it was graded NGC PF69, it had toning spot (back right leg) so I sent it to NCS to remove it and paid $30, take look at what came back a pop 1 PF70 with toning spot still there.  I have had roughly 1 slabbed coin upgraded every other year, always 1oz in size.

Despite these great outcomes I have had some bad luck also, typically with smaller 1/20 sizes where coins came back MS68 and the entire fee was a loss.  Now with NCS fees higher than in previous years, the service makes the most sense for 1/2oz-1oz gold and 1oz silver coins. 

Here, we're not talking about NGC grading higher or cleaning your coins.

We're talking about moral and ethnic lapses like having your coins scratched, damaged, dirtied after slabbing while before slabbing, coins were undamaged.

Offline Contrapunctus

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Re: NGC grading Nightmare!!! (Warning: Panda abuse)
« Reply #19 on: March 19, 2014, 01:50:38 AM »
I would like to know specifically:

1) Is the working environment at NGC clean and dust-free?

2) At NGC, why isn't there a senior grader to perform a final check on the slabs AFTER they were graded by junior graders and slabbed, like PCGS have in their process?

Quote
Most of the slabs are dirty with some dusts/black particles on the outside. it requires wiping, not a big issue
BUT...
some of these black particles are actually Inside the NGC slab, it seems that these coins are slabbed in an unclean environment

Offline KeyDate1/2ozPandas

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Re: NGC grading Nightmare!!! (Warning: Panda abuse)
« Reply #20 on: March 19, 2014, 02:25:46 AM »

We're talking about moral and ethnic lapses like having your coins scratched, damaged, dirtied after slabbing while before slabbing, coins were undamaged.

If you submit your coins in 2.5x2.5 non-pvc flips out of the OMP packaging you have far less chance of having your coins scratched or damaged as less handling will be done by receiving staff.  No grading staff member has moral or ethical lapses, they will lose their jobs if they screw up too often.  Watch the video below, they have cameras everywhere.

As for dirt there are two types issues mentioned here, there is cardboard dust on the outside of the slab, which is common on every NGC submission because they use cardboard boxes with cardboard dividers that shed card dust.  PCGS doesn't have this issue because they ship in PCGS plastic box.  As for dirt inside the slab that is relatively uncommon, maybe 1-2% of the slabs I have seen have lint or some debris inside the slab.  This is a problem for both NGC and PCGS, but again is limited to 1-2% of slabs I have received, I just send them back and they fix them for free or take them to major show and they fix it usually within a day for free.

NGC does do quality control after slabbing, watch this video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ePvVrv0sIeE

Offline PandaCollector

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Re: NGC grading Nightmare!!! (Warning: Panda abuse)
« Reply #21 on: March 19, 2014, 03:05:46 AM »
Absolutely
I would like to know specifically:

1) Is the working environment at NGC clean and dust-free?

2) At NGC, why isn't there a senior grader to perform a final check on the slabs AFTER they were graded by junior graders and slabbed, like PCGS have in their process?


1) Yes

2) Yes there is a senior grader who reviews the grades at NGC.

Both companies have this part of the process down pat. I have huge respect for the senior graders at both.

Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
China Pricepedia
www.pandacollector.com

Offline Contrapunctus

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Re: NGC grading Nightmare!!! (Warning: Panda abuse)
« Reply #22 on: March 19, 2014, 06:14:24 AM »
Absolutely
1) Yes

2) Yes there is a senior grader who reviews the grades at NGC.

Both companies have this part of the process down pat. I have huge respect for the senior graders at both.

Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
China Pricepedia
www.pandacollector.com

Then my next question would be, why the lapses happened? Not once, not twice, not only me.

I don't know about you people, but my trust and respect for NGC have been greatly discounted and it's not going to recover anyhow. Never will I send anything to NGC!

Offline Dr650rob

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Re: NGC grading Nightmare!!! (Warning: Panda abuse)
« Reply #23 on: March 19, 2014, 05:04:02 PM »
Dr650rob - I been selling 100+/month 1/20oz graded NGC MS69 in the last three months including 15+ 1985 1/20oz, unfortunately your request came after others bought me out almost all my extra coins. 

While, I stand 100% behind my comments above about the merits of grading, one thing that I  should acknowledge is 1/20oz has the worst reward/cost ratio for grading - meaning that on a percentage basis the improvement in value from grading a 1/20oz relative to percent of cost to cover grading fee is least profitable.  It intuitively makes sense:

1 oz, $2000 value, if it grades MS69 value increases by $280, cost to grade $14 --> reward/cost = 20x return on grading
1/20 oz $140 value, if it grades MS69 value increases by $42, cost to grade $14 --> reward/cost = 3x return on grading

The simplifying assumption that I made above is that the MS69 and MS70 yields for the two sizes is the same, even after you account for those differences, 1oz size still has a significant advantage to 1/20 oz.  Despite this disadvantage for 1/20oz I still get almost every 1/20 I receive graded because I need them for 5 piece sets, but if I didn't make sets I would probably pass on buying 1/20oz size simply because of the storage challenges and low return on grading.  This is one of the reason you almost never see me carry any BU silver pandas, same issue with storage and low return on grading. 



Ya I understand and I appreciate you buying,grading and selling the 1/20ths for a good price
If I'm looking for a coin i always look at you site first, your one of the best sellers in the biz

Offline PandaCollector

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Re: NGC grading Nightmare!!! (Warning: Panda abuse)
« Reply #24 on: March 19, 2014, 08:33:07 PM »
Then my next question would be, why the lapses happened? Not once, not twice, not only me.

I don't know about you people, but my trust and respect for NGC have been greatly discounted and it's not going to recover anyhow. Never will I send anything to NGC!

Contrapunctus,

I offer the following comments in a spirit of friendship only to point out where I feel your assumptions may have led you astray:

Thinking that my coins are in good condition (no toning) I will just waste around $10 a coin, if I were to submit to NCS-NGC.
So in the end, I decided to send these coins directly to NGC, 25 coins in total. My first submission to direct NGC


Your assumption that your coins were in good or maybe excellent condition because they were OMP is, imo, off-base. OMP coins can often have problems. Sometimes NCS can correct these but you chose to not spend the extra dollars (a fair choice). The downside of this decision was that you didn't benefit from NCS' expertise.

Fast forward to 2 weeks ago, I received a shocking result, 2 of my coins are graded as "NGC Details Grading"
1 x 2004 Beijing Expo - surface hairlines
1 x 2012 Panda - Residue
It is shocking because all coins were checked thouroughly using magnifier before submission
Also, coins will never ever ever get any hairline scratches if they are inside a capsule and sealed in an OMP


It is not true that OMP coins cannot have hairlines. Coins sometimes pick up hairlines during minting and packaging. I have seen it. Residue can come from handling at the Mint or the OMP plastic. I will repeat my quote from Nick Brown, " Nobody can accurately and consistently predict the grades of OMP coins." It's just too hard to detect flaws through the layer(s) of plastic. You substituted your own judgement about your coins' condition in OMP for NCS seeing the coins in the open. I consider it incredibly unlikely that your coins picked up residue or hairlines in the NGC grading room. I can say the same for PCGS. I have spent time in the grading rooms of both NGC and PCGS. Both companies handle customers coins in clean conditions and with the utmost care.

It's certainly your choice to not patronize a company but in avoiding NGC you are denying yourself the services of the leading grading company in modern Chinese coins. As both a collector and a consultant they are the company I choose to work with and to grade my own coins.

Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
China Pricepedia
www.pandacollector.com

Offline SANDAC

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Re: NGC grading Nightmare!!! (Warning: Panda abuse)
« Reply #25 on: March 19, 2014, 10:23:48 PM »
A quick clarification:
While it is clear that Contrapunctus has a grudge against NGC and voiced it repeatly, the particular post quoted by Contrapunctus in the beginning of the thread was made by by "musemellow" on Panda Exchange on Nov 28 2012. 
http://pandaxe.com/showthread.php?134-Share-NGC-grading-Nightmare-(Warning-Panda-abuse)&s=3abb527ab82f87c2baae7522686da3fa
musemellow was in communication with NGC and plan to post follow-up but never did.  His last visit to Panda Exchange was June 6 2013.  It is an old post and a few mistakes do happen over a sufficient long period of time.

I myself do take coins out of OMP, photograph them (it is the best time to get the clearest photos), and put them in new 2x2 mylar flips, just as Keydatepanda recommended.  This way I have a clear record of what I've submitted.  Personally I've had no problem with NGC/NCS mishandling my coins.

Offline Contrapunctus

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Re: NGC grading Nightmare!!! (Warning: Panda abuse)
« Reply #26 on: March 22, 2014, 07:03:18 AM »
A quick clarification:
While it is clear that Contrapunctus has a grudge against NGC and voiced it repeatly, the particular post quoted by Contrapunctus in the beginning of the thread was made by by "musemellow" on Panda Exchange on Nov 28 2012. 
http://pandaxe.com/showthread.php?134-Share-NGC-grading-Nightmare-(Warning-Panda-abuse)&s=3abb527ab82f87c2baae7522686da3fa
musemellow was in communication with NGC and plan to post follow-up but never did.  His last visit to Panda Exchange was June 6 2013.  It is an old post and a few mistakes do happen over a sufficient long period of time.

I myself do take coins out of OMP, photograph them (it is the best time to get the clearest photos), and put them in new 2x2 mylar flips, just as Keydatepanda recommended.  This way I have a clear record of what I've submitted.  Personally I've had no problem with NGC/NCS mishandling my coins.

A grudge against NGC? Such a harsh comment. *Ouch* :(

Then all those people who shared their bad experiences with NGC are deemed to have grudges against that grading company?

Isn't this forum "free to share knowledge and express opinion with other collectors"? I'm sure other people would want to know why the lapses occurred as they aren't minor, isolated incidents. People can get lucky once or twice but that doesn't mean the lapses won't happen to their future submissions. We're talking about long-term business relationships here.

Please be more embracing to alternate opinions, views and experiences to achieve diversity.

Offline Contrapunctus

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Re: NGC grading Nightmare!!! (Warning: Panda abuse)
« Reply #27 on: March 22, 2014, 07:09:22 AM »
For older pre 1970s coins PCGS is preferable, but for post 1979 NGC is the dominate player in Chinese coins. 


Is there a distinction? Why is that so?

Offline jc888888888

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Re: NGC grading Nightmare!!! (Warning: Panda abuse)
« Reply #28 on: March 22, 2014, 11:48:14 AM »
I am going to really generalize here: most people who really moan about NGC have had a bad result on 1 go around usually there 1st:) You take a guy like Arif  who has graded thousands of coins he will tell you that after about the first 500 :) you start to realize what makes a coin a 68 or 67 that you thought was for sure a 69 :)  i have graded a fair amount and it just comes to you during the process of education

Offline Contrapunctus

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Re: NGC grading Nightmare!!! (Warning: Panda abuse)
« Reply #29 on: March 24, 2014, 03:01:59 PM »
I am going to really generalize here: most people who really moan about NGC have had a bad result on 1 go around usually there 1st:) You take a guy like Arif  who has graded thousands of coins he will tell you that after about the first 500 :) you start to realize what makes a coin a 68 or 67 that you thought was for sure a 69 :)  i have graded a fair amount and it just comes to you during the process of education

This thread's topic is not about the grade, it's about lapses like dirt particles in slab.

Offline Contrapunctus

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Re: NGC grading Nightmare!!! (Warning: Panda abuse)
« Reply #30 on: April 06, 2014, 01:06:21 AM »
I'm done sending coins to ncs/Ngc they totally screwed us by jacking up the price to $50 for coins under the $300 mark, which i wouldn't have know about if it wasn't for this forum
They didn't send any emails post anything about this before the 15th, which is bs
I got my coins there by the 15th it took 2 months to grade and luckily I must've wrote my cc exp date wrong because I gotta email saying the almost $400 payment for 6 1/20ths didn't go thru, I told them my submission papers said it was only $25(or $27) per coin, I was ready to flip out but the lady at the billing dept was too nice and changed from $50 to $25
I got decent grades but from now on I'll buy them already graded
It's just not worth it to pay $50 to put a 1/20 coin thru ncs/Ngc, I'd be screwed if it'd come back as a 68 or lower
It's just a major bummer they would do this to the people who can't afford $300+ gold coins
It was fun to buy a coin and send it in and wait to see if you get a good grade, but I guess that funs over
I know they were very backed up with submissions, so maybe that's why the errors/problems happend with MM's coins


Yes, NEVER send any coins/medals for grading. Only buy already graded coins/medals.

Really no point to put up with bad service.

Offline brewcity

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Re: NGC grading Nightmare!!! (Warning: Panda abuse)
« Reply #31 on: April 06, 2014, 05:31:05 PM »
I have acknowledged previously that I don't deal in huge volumes, but I haven't had any issues with slab quality or damage on any of the coins I have submitted to NGC. I feel the grades received were fair - sometimes disappointing (we always want a 70), but fair.

I would have no issues referring someone to NGC for coin grading.

Contrapunctus - I am sensing a theme in your posts. Are you part owner of PCGS?

Offline Pandagongzi

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Re: NGC grading Nightmare!!! (Warning: Panda abuse)
« Reply #32 on: April 06, 2014, 07:18:27 PM »
If you are talking about the piefort coin, it went from a lead color to silver.  As for the tiger the photo was taken under different light, but the coin looked identical in tone and color before and after, only the toning spot become a little lighter. 
Tiger is PF70 with red spot?  This perfectly demonstrated NGC/NCS has bias towards big dealer.

Offline PandaCollector

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Re: NGC grading Nightmare!!! (Warning: Panda abuse)
« Reply #33 on: April 06, 2014, 07:42:54 PM »
Tiger is PF70 with red spot?  This perfectly demonstrated NGC/NCS has bias towards big dealer.

A red spot disqualifies a coin from a PF-70- grade but one can develop after a coin has been graded and slabbed.

Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
China Pricepedia
www.pandacollector.com

Offline PandaCollector

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Re: NGC grading Nightmare!!! (Warning: Panda abuse)
« Reply #34 on: April 06, 2014, 07:50:13 PM »
I don’t know Contrapunctus and I have no idea what motivates his posts but I do think he has a right to express his opinions here. That said, here’s a recent story from China to illustrate how difficult it can be to discern the real story from the public one.

As most CCF readers know there are a several grading companies that do business within China these days. The field is quite competitive. It happens that one company (company A) held a grading “event” that attracted a lot of submissions. Among them was a very large group of coins from somebody who is closely associated with a rival company (company B). Why would this person submit his coins to a competitor? Because Company A’s coins sell for more in China than Company B's and the submitter would have missed out on some profits if his coins were slabbed through his own partner.

What is really interesting, though, is what the submitter did next.  Out of his thousands of newly graded coins he found a handful with questionable grades. He then very publicly cracked the coins out of their holders and demonstrated the so-called mistakes.

Why would he do this? Because the submitter anticipated criticism from his business partners when they learned that he used the rival grading service. By publicly bashing Company A’s quality he deflected that criticism in advance while getting almost all of his coins in the more valuable slab.

I have to admit that when I realized what had taken place the submitter earned my admiration for his cunning. It was an ingenious way to have your cake and eat it, too. But it was an outstanding illustration of how reality and appearances often diverge and we should not always take what we see and read at face value.

Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
China Pricepedia
www.pandacollector.com

Offline brewcity

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Re: NGC grading Nightmare!!! (Warning: Panda abuse)
« Reply #35 on: April 06, 2014, 08:21:05 PM »
Peter: What an incredible story! I read it a couple of times just to make sure I didn't miss anything. Thank you for sharing.

Offline Contrapunctus

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Re: NGC grading Nightmare!!! (Warning: Panda abuse)
« Reply #36 on: April 07, 2014, 04:24:49 AM »
I have acknowledged previously that I don't deal in huge volumes, but I haven't had any issues with slab quality or damage on any of the coins I have submitted to NGC. I feel the grades received were fair - sometimes disappointing (we always want a 70), but fair.

I would have no issues referring someone to NGC for coin grading.

Contrapunctus - I am sensing a theme in your posts. Are you part owner of PCGS?

I'm neither affiliated nor against any company or person.


I don’t know Contrapunctus and I have no idea what motivates his posts but I do think he has a right to express his opinions here. That said, here’s a recent story from China to illustrate how difficult it can be to discern the real story from the public one.

As most CCF readers know there are a several grading companies that do business within China these days. The field is quite competitive. It happens that one company (company A) held a grading “event” that attracted a lot of submissions. Among them was a very large group of coins from somebody who is closely associated with a rival company (company B). Why would this person submit his coins to a competitor? Because Company A’s coins sell for more in China than Company B's and the submitter would have missed out on some profits if his coins were slabbed through his own partner.

What is really interesting, though, is what the submitter did next.  Out of his thousands of newly graded coins he found a handful with questionable grades. He then very publicly cracked the coins out of their holders and demonstrated the so-called mistakes.

Why would he do this? Because the submitter anticipated criticism from his business partners when they learned that he used the rival grading service. By publicly bashing Company A’s quality he deflected that criticism in advance while getting almost all of his coins in the more valuable slab.

I have to admit that when I realized what had taken place the submitter earned my admiration for his cunning. It was an ingenious way to have your cake and eat it, too. But it was an outstanding illustration of how reality and appearances often diverge and we should not always take what we see and read at face value.

Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
China Pricepedia
www.pandacollector.com

Peter, you're thinking too much. You're not dealing with facts anymore. I don't know you and I'm neither a partner with any dealer or grading companies. I'm just an individual commoner collector out on the streets. Are you going to suspect every dissatisfied customer like me, Dr650rob or even musemellow to be a partner of a "rival company"?

Legally speaking, even the wife of Harland Sanders has a right to step into a McDonalds restaurant and expect to be served well like any customer. And if she wasn't served well, she has every right to make her dissatisfaction known.

Offline Contrapunctus

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Re: NGC grading Nightmare!!! (Warning: Panda abuse)
« Reply #37 on: April 07, 2014, 04:55:14 AM »
Because Company A’s coins sell for more in China than Company B's and the submitter would have missed out on some profits if his coins were slabbed through his own partner.

Opinions, views, comments, personal preferences...

I've a whole thread here that prefers PCGS but it didn't mean anything because it's individual preference.

http://www.cointalk.com/threads/pcgs-vs-ngc.192461/



PS: Sssshh... personally, I prefer PCGS's clear plastic slab.

Offline brewcity

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Re: NGC grading Nightmare!!! (Warning: Panda abuse)
« Reply #38 on: April 07, 2014, 08:54:09 AM »
I read the thread you shared, and while this particular thread leans PCGS, it's not the "whole thread here that prefers PCGS." While I have no data to back me up, I suspect the collecting community is probably fairly evenly split between the two camps (for those who are absolutely committed to one grading service). However large those camps may be, there's likely a camp that's larger than either of them who don't care which of the two slabs they receive (switch hitters, if you will). After all, as it was mentioned in the thread you shared, it's first and foremost about the coin.

The slab and grading (for me) is more about preserving the coin and reassurance that I can sell a coin for about what I paid for it (assuming I don't "reach" to get a particular coin) - that is, the buyer and seller view the coin as being the same grade (and roughly equivalent value, or the transaction doesn't transpire). That said, being a perfectionist, if I have a set I am attempting to assemble, I will always preferentially collect a single set of holders (without overpaying to do so). I find a complete set more appealing and impressive if the holders and matching (including all white edge view vs. old NGC holders vs. black edge view).

Like you said, it's all a matter of opinion/preference.

Offline Pandagongzi

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Re: NGC grading Nightmare!!! (Warning: Panda abuse)
« Reply #39 on: April 07, 2014, 10:18:58 AM »
A red spot disqualifies a coin from a PF-70- grade but one can develop after a coin has been graded and slabbed.

Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
China Pricepedia
www.pandacollector.com

Arif said Tiger was PF69 before NCS.  After NCS, it got PF70 even red spot is still there.

Offline Contrapunctus

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Re: NGC grading Nightmare!!! (Warning: Panda abuse)
« Reply #40 on: April 07, 2014, 10:52:29 AM »
I read the thread you shared, and while this particular thread leans PCGS, it's not the "whole thread here that prefers PCGS." While I have no data to back me up, I suspect the collecting community is probably fairly evenly split between the two camps (for those who are absolutely committed to one grading service). However large those camps may be, there's likely a camp that's larger than either of them who don't care which of the two slabs they receive (switch hitters, if you will). After all, as it was mentioned in the thread you shared, it's first and foremost about the coin.

The slab and grading (for me) is more about preserving the coin and reassurance that I can sell a coin for about what I paid for it (assuming I don't "reach" to get a particular coin) - that is, the buyer and seller view the coin as being the same grade (and roughly equivalent value, or the transaction doesn't transpire). That said, being a perfectionist, if I have a set I am attempting to assemble, I will always preferentially collect a single set of holders (without overpaying to do so). I find a complete set more appealing and impressive if the holders and matching (including all white edge view vs. old NGC holders vs. black edge view).

Like you said, it's all a matter of opinion/preference.

Unlike you and some other people, I buy a graded coin for the coin itself. I don't care whether it is NGC or PCGS slab. Either one is fine.

Offline SANDAC

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Re: NGC grading Nightmare!!! (Warning: Panda abuse)
« Reply #41 on: April 07, 2014, 10:57:26 AM »
I read the thread you shared, and while this particular thread leans PCGS, it's not the "whole thread here that prefers PCGS." While I have no data to back me up, I suspect the collecting community is probably fairly evenly split between the two camps (for those who are absolutely committed to one grading service). However large those camps may be, there's likely a camp that's larger than either of them who don't care which of the two slabs they receive (switch hitters, if you will). After all, as it was mentioned in the thread you shared, it's first and foremost about the coin.

CCF also conducted our own survey of PCGS/NGC/OMP.  At this point NGC is the clear winner.
http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=3689.0

Offline Contrapunctus

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Re: NGC grading Nightmare!!! (Warning: Panda abuse)
« Reply #42 on: April 07, 2014, 11:14:10 AM »
CCF also conducted our own survey of PCGS/NGC/OMP.  At this point NGC is the clear winner.
http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=3689.0

Total Voters: 74

A census of sample size 74 voters is a joke unless you conducted a census of an entire country, say China or US.

Offline jc888888888

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Re: NGC grading Nightmare!!! (Warning: Panda abuse)
« Reply #43 on: April 07, 2014, 11:24:04 AM »
CCF also conducted our own survey of PCGS/NGC/OMP.  At this point NGC is the clear winner.
http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=3689.0

+1 Sandac, Perception is reality ,and reality is $$$$$ ,perceived or real you can pick which one you like the most ,MCC in both China and in USA consistently sell for more money in NGC holder's over PCGS holder's  , there simply just more collector's who have started there collection in NGC holder's and want to continue #2 pcgs in an attempt to gain market share has a perception in the marketplace as being much more liberal with higher grades when it comes to MCC  and there is a lot of basis of fact in this regard IMHO (look at the 2001d small d as a glaring example) thus making a PCGS coin of the same grade less desirable  .I am not always a cheerleader of NGC , I have graded a fairly substantial amount of coins at NGC and like anyone I am not always in agreement with the grading results but all in all the proof is in the fact that I keep sending them coins to grade ,and when I have had a problem with NGC they have always done their best to fix it for me.

Offline PandaCollector

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Re: NGC grading Nightmare!!! (Warning: Panda abuse)
« Reply #44 on: April 07, 2014, 12:34:09 PM »
I'm neither affiliated nor against any company or person.


Peter, you're thinking too much. You're not dealing with facts anymore. I don't know you and I'm neither a partner with any dealer or grading companies. I'm just an individual commoner collector out on the streets. Are you going to suspect every dissatisfied customer like me, Dr650rob or even musemellow to be a partner of a "rival company"?

Legally speaking, even the wife of Harland Sanders has a right to step into a McDonalds restaurant and expect to be served well like any customer. And if she wasn't served well, she has every right to make her dissatisfaction known.

Dear Contrapunctus,

I think my post made plain that I respect your right to your opinion as well as your right to express it. The story that followed didn't name the companies involved. That was a deliberate choice so it would not be seen as pro or anti any specific company. It is also neither pro nor anti any particular person, including you. That was not the point of it.  It's unclear to me why you would take the story as an effort to suppress your opinions. If you do think so, rest assured it is not.

Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
China Pricepedia
www.pandacollector.com

Offline PandaCollector

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Re: NGC grading Nightmare!!! (Warning: Panda abuse)
« Reply #45 on: April 07, 2014, 12:42:24 PM »
Arif said Tiger was PF69 before NCS.  After NCS, it got PF70 even red spot is still there.

I'm not the customer service rep for NGC. I have been told that the policy there is that a coin with a red spot won't receive a 70. If there are photos that show a red spot on a newly graded 70 coin than that is something that I would suggest you contact the company about to resolve.

Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
China Pricepedia
www.pandacollector.com

Offline poconopenn

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Re: NGC grading Nightmare!!! (Warning: Panda abuse)
« Reply #46 on: April 07, 2014, 12:53:45 PM »


Based on recent results of Stacks Bowers auction at H.K. in April, 2014, NGC graded MCC has about 10% premium over PCGS, while PCGS fetches more than 10% premium over NGC for Imperial and Republic coins.

Buy the coin, not the holder.

Offline Contrapunctus

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Re: NGC grading Nightmare!!! (Warning: Panda abuse)
« Reply #47 on: April 07, 2014, 02:11:09 PM »
Dear Contrapunctus,

I think my post made plain that I respect your right to your opinion as well as your right to express it. The story that followed didn't name the companies involved. That was a deliberate choice so it would not be seen as pro or anti any specific company. It is also neither pro nor anti any particular person, including you. That was not the point of it.  It's unclear to me why you would take the story as an effort to suppress your opinions. If you do think so, rest assured it is not.

Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
China Pricepedia
www.pandacollector.com

Peter, if you know you're stating facts, you wouldn't use pseudonyms like "company A" and "company B".

Legally speaking, if you're stating facts with evidence, you can safely use the actual company names.

I was not referring to myself in the analogy; I was saying even a partner of a company has the right to patronize its rival company. There is absolutely nothing wrong.

Offline PandaCollector

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Re: NGC grading Nightmare!!! (Warning: Panda abuse)
« Reply #48 on: April 07, 2014, 03:33:49 PM »
Dear Contrapunctus,

This is not a legal forum. The names of the companies involved would distract from the point I made, or attempted to make, which has nothing to do with the companies. It was the submitter's behavior that interested me.

"I was saying even a partner of a company has the right to patronize its rival company. There is absolutely nothing wrong." From a business relationship standpoint my guess is that most people see two-timing your partner as a problem even if it's not illegal. YMMV.

Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
China Pricepedia
www.pandacollector.com

P.S. Stating the companies' names would help identify the submitter. I wish to keep him anonymous.

Offline Contrapunctus

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Re: NGC grading Nightmare!!! (Warning: Panda abuse)
« Reply #49 on: April 08, 2014, 03:55:57 AM »
Dear Contrapunctus,

This is not a legal forum. The names of the companies involved would distract from the point I made, or attempted to make, which has nothing to do with the companies. It was the submitter's behavior that interested me.

"I was saying even a partner of a company has the right to patronize its rival company. There is absolutely nothing wrong." From a business relationship standpoint my guess is that most people see two-timing your partner as a problem even if it's not illegal. YMMV.

Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
China Pricepedia
www.pandacollector.com

P.S. Stating the companies' names would help identify the submitter. I wish to keep him anonymous.

Yes, I know this is not a legal forum. But I was pointing out to you, there is nothing wrong with a business partner patronizing his rival company and making his dissatisfaction known if he was dissatisfied with the rival company's service. You may see it as two-timing but it is entirely your opinion.

You must learn to differentiate opinions from facts.

Back to your story from your point of view, you wrote "he found a handful with questionable grades". Why are there slabs with "questionable grades"? Details? Are those slabs having similar problems as musemellow's?

Offline Vredaren

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Re: NGC grading Nightmare!!! (Warning: Panda abuse)
« Reply #50 on: April 08, 2014, 04:12:25 AM »
An interesting story, Peter, thank you for sharing. I think most people realised that you kept the name of the submitter out of the story for respect of that person, and that you avoided naming the companies so that it wouldn't turn into a big "PCGS vs NGC vc X"-debate.

I am a junior collector but even I realise that while we do expect perfection there is _always_ room for error and that won't ever change. That's why it's great that you can simply contact the company which graded your coins and almost always get help with an incorrect grade or a damaged slab etc. Of course there are horror stories like this one that sparked this debate but those are very few and far in between. Just consider how many coins are submitted and graded...

Also I'd imagine that in Peter's story the errors were mostly incorrect grades more than anything and not mishandling.

Offline Contrapunctus

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Re: NGC grading Nightmare!!! (Warning: Panda abuse)
« Reply #51 on: April 08, 2014, 04:39:07 AM »
Also I'd imagine that in Peter's story the errors were mostly incorrect grades more than anything and not mishandling.

If a Naughty Greedy Company is so excellent, why would there be incorrect grades?

I heard there are 2 or 3 graders handling and grading every coin and after slabbed, a "world class grader" would conduct a final inspection on the slab. For those slabs with "questionable grade", is Peter trying to tell me all the 3 graders and the "world class grader" failed to grade correctly?

1 person may make a mistake but when there are 3 more persons examining and inspecting the first person's work, how is it possible all 4 persons failed at the same time? I find it totally unacceptable and I'm not sending coins to that company ever.

Offline PandaCollector

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Re: NGC grading Nightmare!!! (Warning: Panda abuse)
« Reply #52 on: April 08, 2014, 12:36:20 PM »
I have been fortunate enough to work for both NGC and PCGS. I know many of the graders, executives and employees at both companies. I respect the staff at both places. As a collector I’ve also had coins graded by both companies. In my experience no grading process that depends on humans is infallible and no process that depends on machines works at all. If you look hard enough and know what to look for there are always coins that might go up or down in grade if they are resubmitted. One of the best qualities of both companies is that they will work with submitters to resolve problems and misunderstandings.

There are meaningful differences between the two companies and it is certainly fair to prefer one more than the other (I do).  In my opinion what is not fair is to claim that one company is perfect and the other is terrible – this is simply not the case.

Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
China Pricepedia
www.pandacollector.com

Offline snowball

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Re: NGC grading Nightmare!!! (Warning: Panda abuse)
« Reply #53 on: April 08, 2014, 12:49:14 PM »
In my experience no grading process that depends on humans is infallible and no process that depends on machines works at all. If you look hard enough and know what to look for there are always coins that might go up or down in grade if they are resubmitted. One of the best qualities of both companies is that they will work with submitters to resolve problems and misunderstandings.

There are meaningful differences between the two companies and it is certainly fair to prefer one more than the other (I do).  In my opinion what is not fair is to claim that one company is perfect and the other is terrible – this is simply not the case.

Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
China Pricepedia
www.pandacollector.com



Well said, Peter!  N31


best,


snowball
Happy Collecting!  快乐收藏!

Colin
CE Collection Inc.
China Mint | Online Store

Offline Contrapunctus

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Re: NGC grading Nightmare!!! (Warning: Panda abuse)
« Reply #54 on: April 08, 2014, 01:10:44 PM »
I have been fortunate enough to work for both NGC and PCGS. I know many of the graders, executives and employees at both companies. I respect the staff at both places. As a collector I’ve also had coins graded by both companies. In my experience no grading process that depends on humans is infallible and no process that depends on machines works at all. If you look hard enough and know what to look for there are always coins that might go up or down in grade if they are resubmitted. One of the best qualities of both companies is that they will work with submitters to resolve problems and misunderstandings.

There are meaningful differences between the two companies and it is certainly fair to prefer one more than the other (I do).  In my opinion what is not fair is to claim that one company is perfect and the other is terrible – this is simply not the case.

Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
China Pricepedia
www.pandacollector.com

It is not claimed by dissatisfied customers without reason or rhyme. There is no smoke without fire.

True that no human is infallible but 4 experts failing at the same time for so many incidents just spelt "terrible".

Offline Contrapunctus

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Re:
« Reply #55 on: April 11, 2014, 06:22:39 AM »
I started a new thread because I want nothing to do with the " nightmare " thread. This is just a report to the forum members on my results when trying the new NGC 70's cross over rules. I submitted 9 coins for cross over. 7 were 70s 2 were 69s. I own 6 of these coins and I submitted 3 for a Chinese Dealer who is also a good friend. I mention this just to show that the coins came from different areas and grading periods at PCGS. None of them passed. I am disappointed but it isn't the first time and I'm sure it won't be the last. I would have thought the number of 70s submitted would have yielded at least 1 or 2 70s. I would be interested in hearing from others on the forum if they have tried to cross over from PCGS 70s to NGC.

Russ

As some members have pointed out in another thread, "company P" and "company N" are rivals. :ohmy: :sneaky2:

If you're "company N" receiving the coins for crossovers, would you agree with your rival's gradings? If I'm "company N", I would grade them all down to 68 to show that my rival's grading skills is flawed and to punish the collector for not choosing my company for grading in the first place. :mad:

From the start, the idea of crossover is bad idea for any collector. Didn't you hear alarm bells ringing? N12

If you're a perfectionist insisting on uniform slabs for all coins in your collection, you need plenty of blessings and luck. Thank god I'm not such a perfectionist. If ever any of your 70 coin crossovered successfully as a 70, please also buy a lottery ticket. Haha, just joking. N16

Offline Contrapunctus

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Re: NGC grading Nightmare!!! (Warning: Panda abuse)
« Reply #56 on: April 11, 2014, 11:37:12 AM »
Strange, why is my reply to Russ in this thread?

Offline Mirkkanen

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Re: NGC grading Nightmare!!! (Warning: Panda abuse)
« Reply #57 on: April 11, 2014, 02:17:14 PM »
I assume it was moved b/c a mod/admin felt it was more appropriate in this thread.

Offline Contrapunctus

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Re: NGC grading Nightmare!!! (Warning: Panda abuse)
« Reply #58 on: April 11, 2014, 08:00:00 PM »
I assume it was moved b/c a mod/admin felt it was more appropriate in this thread.

Thanks anyway for your private message the other time. I can feel it was full of care and concern for me.