Author Topic: 1992 Gold Panda Large Date "High 2" variety  (Read 11673 times)

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Offline 1668Chris

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Re: 1992 Gold Panda Large Date "High 2" variety
« Reply #15 on: April 23, 2015, 07:51:38 PM »
more pics

Offline 1668Chris

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Re: 1992 Gold Panda Large Date "High 2" variety
« Reply #16 on: April 28, 2015, 06:29:15 AM »
Correction:

There are 4 gold 5 yuan in the ngc census.  Three 69s and one 68.

Offline KeyDate1/2ozPandas

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Re: 1992 Gold Panda Large Date "High 2" variety
« Reply #17 on: April 28, 2015, 11:18:44 AM »
Take a look at this auction.  Someone mistakenly thinks this is a high date variety.  It is actually a small date.
http://english.zhaoonline.com/detail/auction-3193397-detail.shtml

Offline 1668Chris

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Re: 1992 Gold Panda Large Date "High 2" variety
« Reply #18 on: April 28, 2015, 07:10:42 PM »
Not sure what the buyer was thinking with that price.   It clearly is not a "high 2" and if they checked NGC's site they would have realized what they bidding on.

My guess is that a real high 2 would bring a higher price on auction, given its apparent rarity.

Offline poconopenn

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Re: 1992 Gold Panda Large Date "High 2" variety
« Reply #19 on: April 28, 2015, 11:21:00 PM »
Have we reached the conclusion of authenticity of this high 2 varieties? Some members of this forum had questioned about the authenticity of this coin two years ago. I did not participate in the discussion at that time and want to wait to see if more of this varieties could be discovered later. Based on the current data, only one confirmed 1/10 oz. (3805833-053) and one 1/20 oz. (3805833-054) were graded by NGC recently. These two coins have the same invoice #, therefore, the same person owns this two coins. Strongly, the previous confirm 1/10 oz. and 1/20 oz. (33017379-026 and -027) high 2 also had the same invoice # and submitted by the same person. Since we do not know the cert. # of the other two sets, we can not really verify if they are indeed high 2 version.

Here is my question. What is the probability of the same person to own both coins? Furthermore, what is the probability of second person to own the both coins again?

Attached are the pictures copied from NGC websites. First two pictures are for 0.1 oz. and third and fourth pictures are for 0.05 oz.

http://www.ngccoin.com/VPVariety.aspx?coinid=5170

http://www.ngccoin.com/VPVariety.aspx?coinid=5171

Both examples given at NGC website shown both coins were made poorly.

Here is my understanding of the minting process. An artist creates a large plaster model of the coin, usually about 8 in size. Next, a reducing lathe takes several days to reduce the image into a proper size of steel master hub. Therefore, the design of 1/10 oz. and 1/20 oz. ought to be identical. The pictures at NGC websites show the position of date 1992 differ from each other and can not be from the same original mold.

There are too many questions to be answered. Perhaps, NGC realized the mistake and decided to stop grading this varieties, and therefore, only one extra set shown up in the population report during last two years. Can any member of this forum who may have good connection to NGC to find out if this varieties still will be acceptable for grading?


Offline KeyDate1/2ozPandas

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Re: 1992 Gold Panda Large Date "High 2" variety
« Reply #20 on: April 29, 2015, 01:12:40 AM »

My guess is that a real high 2 would bring a higher price on auction, given its apparent rarity.

There was one recently auctioned for $1700.  The 1/20 also auctioned for $1700. 

As poco points out the circumstances of both 1/10 and 1/20 being on the same invoice twice is suspicious.  I have never seen one despite handling 50+ 1/10 and 1/20 from that year.

Offline Hippanda

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Re: 1992 Gold Panda Large Date "High 2" variety
« Reply #21 on: April 29, 2015, 01:58:57 AM »
Fantastic analysis Poconopenn.

I had been recently pondering this issue too but not to the depth of your examination.
"He who speaks without modesty will find it difficult to make his words good."

Confucius

Offline 1668Chris

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Re: 1992 Gold Panda Large Date "High 2" variety
« Reply #22 on: April 29, 2015, 07:55:20 PM »
Keep in mind that dates can be hand stamped onto the dies.  This is also true other types of mint marks.   For example, look at the differences in the 1994 silver proof unicorn.  Or the different date positions for the 1990 silver dragon/ Phoenix.

I posted a discussion about the hand stamp a while back.

Offline poconopenn

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Re: 1992 Gold Panda Large Date "High 2" variety
« Reply #23 on: May 02, 2015, 07:00:49 PM »
Keep in mind that dates can be hand stamped onto the dies.  This is also true other types of mint marks.   For example, look at the differences in the 1994 silver proof unicorn.  Or the different date positions for the 1990 silver dragon/ Phoenix.

I posted a discussion about the hand stamp a while back.

For silver and gold pandas or any MCC which are contracted and authorized by the People’s Bank of China, the chance of needing to repair the production die is very limited since multiple mater hubs are made for the production dies. However, for those MCC with the production contract initiated by a foreign distributor and authorized by the People’s Bank of China, (usually with a relatively low mintage) the production budget is low, with limited profit margin for Mint. Therefore, only single master hub is made for the production dies. When the master hub is damaged, the cheapest way to fix the problem is to repair the production die. This is the reason of observing more varieties in those MCC. Historical figures, Unicorn, and dragon/phoenix, which initiated by foreign distributors, are just few good examples. For the same reason, the large size (more than 5 oz.) MCC with relatively low mintage usually has many varieties, since the single master hub and production dies can be damaged easily due to the higher striking pressure and number of the strikes during the minting process. Recent Expo show 5 oz. medals with contract initiated by PandaAmerica are good examples.

IMO, the chance of hand stamped date on production die for gold panda is very limited. The only known example is 2001-D, wherein D has a different position as well as size.

Offline SANDAC

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Re: 1992 Gold Panda Large Date "High 2" variety
« Reply #24 on: July 12, 2015, 01:57:45 PM »
The high-2 census from my NGC record dated back to Oct 2013:
G5Y (1/20) was 2 up to 3/31/2014, 3 on 4/7/2014, and 4 on 4/20/2015 til the present.
G10Y (1/10) was 3 up to 3/31/2014, 4 on 4/7/2014, 5 on 6/17/2014, and 6 on 4/20/2015 til the present.
They do seem to be submitted in pair except on 6/17/2014.
Is possible these are VIP present in 2-coin set gift boxes?

Offline 1668Chris

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Re: 1992 Gold Panda Large Date "High 2" variety
« Reply #25 on: July 30, 2016, 01:24:13 PM »
New update

3307379-027 just sold on yjzx for 50,000 yuan.

Also NGC is showing 2 more 1/10 so actual pop for 1/10 should be 6 and no change to 1/20 pop which still stands at 4.

Offline 1668Chris

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Offline 1668Chris

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Re: 1992 Gold Panda Large Date "High 2" variety
« Reply #27 on: September 21, 2016, 03:17:54 PM »
Here is another 1/20 high 2 which sold on YJZX.  It is a new cert number which brings total 1/20 to 5.  This one is a 68.  Therefore there are 3 69s and 2 68s

http://auc.yjzx.com/JingPai/Detail.html#59349


Offline SANDAC

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Re: 1992 Gold Panda Large Date "High 2" variety
« Reply #28 on: September 21, 2016, 07:53:40 PM »
The high2 tends to graded in pair so the next number 3878499-002 turns out to be G10Y high2.

Offline 1668Chris

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Re: 1992 Gold Panda Large Date "High 2" variety
« Reply #29 on: December 04, 2016, 11:30:17 PM »
Here is an ungraded 1/10 that just sold on yjzx.

http://auc.yjzx.com/JingPai/show/sta/1/tid/47118/pid/65729.html

No new updates to NGC pop.  This is the first ungraded one seen on auction.