Author Topic: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993  (Read 100400 times)

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Offline badon

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #120 on: December 06, 2011, 01:33:30 PM »
My bible used to be Krause

You have no idea how happy that little phrase just made me :)

Here is my rationalization:  My bible used to be Krause Standard Cat of World Coins, but since CC does not refer to Krause much, but refer NGC/PCGS regularly.  Furthurmore, NGC has a big presence in modern Chinese coins, so I felt it is reasonable to follow NGC's convention.  NGC's slab front is obverse.  Beside it is easy to change and I don't have my ego wrapped around this issue.

Yes, it is easy to change, but remember, the CC will accumulate a LOT of data very fast once it gets opened to the public. It will require someone to go through each image and change it if we decide to change something. There could be thousands or millions of images...

So, it is wise to decide in early testing how we want to do it. I think this was discussed somewhere else at CCF for pandas, and if I remember correctly, it was decided to stick with the official idea because that's what Chinese collectors are used to. Like you, I don't really care either way, so long as it is consistent and does not confuse people.

That's one reason why I changed the terminology just for slabs. "obverse" and "reverse" would not make sense for slabs, since the "slab front" always shows the "artistic" side of the coins, even if China officially thinks that side is the reverse.

So, the problem is mostly solved for specimens I guess, except for close ups of only the coin. For types, the terminology is only "obverse" and "reverse", and we need to decide early on what exactly that means so we don't have to go back later and change too many images.

Now that I think about it, the types mostly show only ungraded coins, and they are representative for the type, so there isn't much need for a lot of photos on each type YET. So, the problem isn't that big of deal.

But, I just had a thought that it would be nice to mark "obverse" and "reverse" closeup images of graded coins with the grade. That way, you can easily generate a list of images of all 69, 68, 67, etc grade coins. That would make it easy to learn grading.

What do you think of that possible feature? I can easily add it any time, once we have enough data to make it useful. It'll be cool to compare grading standards between NGC and PCGS that way.

Offline SANDAC

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #121 on: December 06, 2011, 03:34:55 PM »
I know Krause and China Mint may have a different idea of what obverse is (and they are not necessarily consistent with each other), but for the regular Joe-six-pack of collectors, the obverse is synonymous with "head", "front", and the features that differentiate a coin from other coins.  If I want to sell a coin on eBay, I want to put the picture that most readily identify a coin as the first picture.  That is the obverse.  I think it is the intuitive approach that most people can agree with.  This does bring up a point:  It is still too early to write a "CC style guide", but I do think a consistent look-and-feel is a worthy goal even at this early stage.  The best way to reach a style guide is through examples, discussion, and consensus building process which you are doing a great job of.  Eventually, in the name of consistency, a style guide does need to nailed down and you are the man with the big hammer.   ;)

Offline r3globe

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #122 on: December 06, 2011, 03:43:55 PM »
I am not sure if you guys went over this, but I just found one of my Kublai Khan's with 8 Spears. 2 spears are missing in-between the 2 rightmost background soldiers.

Offline badon

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #123 on: December 06, 2011, 03:57:51 PM »
So we have Kublai Khan's with 10 spears, 8 spears, and 7 spears? Maybe we need to rename the types again.

Offline badon

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #124 on: December 06, 2011, 04:01:05 PM »
I know Krause and China Mint may have a different idea of what obverse is (and they are not necessarily consistent with each other), but for the regular Joe-six-pack of collectors, the obverse is synonymous with "head", "front", and the features that differentiate a coin from other coins.  If I want to sell a coin on eBay, I want to put the picture that most readily identify a coin as the first picture.  That is the obverse.  I think it is the intuitive approach that most people can agree with.  This does bring up a point:  It is still too early to write a "CC style guide", but I do think a consistent look-and-feel is a worthy goal even at this early stage.  The best way to reach a style guide is through examples, discussion, and consensus building process which you are doing a great job of.  Eventually, in the name of consistency, a style guide does need to nailed down and you are the man with the big hammer.   ;)

I agree with you completely. If I were able to just make a choice for myself, the "design side" would be the obverse, according to the standards spelled out here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obverse_and_reverse

But, the problem may arise when Chinese people start using the CC. Someone around here has said that Chinese collectors follow the official terminology convention. If that's true (and we decide not to try to change it), then it will confuse Chinese users of the Coin Compendium if we don't follow it too.

Offline SANDAC

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #125 on: December 06, 2011, 06:20:38 PM »
I am not sure if you guys went over this, but I just found one of my Kublai Khan's with 8 Spears. 2 spears are missing in-between the 2 rightmost background soldiers.

That two particular spears are prone to "vanish".  If you look at this item on NGC:
http://www.ngccoin.com/certlookup/CertResults.aspx?CertNumber=4049865-004

You'll swear that these two spears are completely gone.  That happens to be one of mine and with a different lighting, you can still see the spears.  It is possible that in your particular coin these two spears are completely gone, but you need to look at them under a magnifier to determine that.

Offline badon

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #126 on: December 06, 2011, 06:54:18 PM »
SANDAC, it would be interesting to show the effect different lighting in showing or hiding the 2 vanishing spears on the 8 spears variety.

Offline badon

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #127 on: December 06, 2011, 06:54:57 PM »
I think a small crop of the NGC image to compare with your other images would constitute fair use.

Offline SANDAC

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #128 on: December 06, 2011, 07:37:15 PM »
I look at r3globe's picture again and I think it is the "missing link" from the full 10-spear KK to the 7-spear KK I talked about a few days ago here: http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=4585.msg25710#msg25710

Here are a sequence of photos to illustrate the progression of the vanishing spears:
1.  This is a normal big army KK.
2.  The 3 rightmost spears are fading
3.  They are fading even more, the is the zoom of NGC 4049865-004
4.  r3globe's 8-spear zoom in
5.  7-spear zoom of http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=4585.msg25710#msg25710

Offline SANDAC

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #129 on: December 06, 2011, 07:40:17 PM »
You can see on the last picture that the right most 2 spear are almost gone.  Just another sequence in the vanishing progression.  So here ia s challenge to the CCF community:  Can you find a 5-spear version of KK?

Offline SANDAC

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #130 on: December 06, 2011, 07:48:32 PM »
It will be the coveted "Tiny Army" with the "Micro Army" not far behind!   :lol:

Offline badon

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #131 on: December 06, 2011, 08:09:33 PM »
Fantastic research! I'm looking for die identification signs to see if it is truly a "progression" with just one die being worn, repolished, worn, repolished, etc. It's the polishing that erases the spears.

The 2nd, 3rd, and last photo have lost detail in frosted areas due to being excessively frosted and also possibly wear prior to frosting. That is a clue that the dies were recycled by refrosting and repolishing more than once. The polishing erases the spears, while the refrosting erases the details and rounds everything to look "soft".

The one thing that is unique for every die, always, is the frosting. It is produce in a process that is uncontrolled and random at the small scale. So, if you can find bumps that are identical on two coins, they are almost certainly from the same die.

Wear follows the frosting, because the frosting wears first. That means the wear on each die should be slightly different too, and it may be possible to match up coins to a single die even if the coins were made before and after the die was polished and refrosted. That will be a  challenge though.

Just looking at this set of photos, it appears to me that there are at least 2 completely different dies. I would have to study more to see if I can figure out more info, but I am already sure that the "progression" is not just one die.

Offline badon

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #132 on: December 07, 2011, 03:55:51 AM »
SANDAC, I've noticed that you're only uploading photos of the design side of the coins. Research is greatly aided by seeing the other side of the coin, since it is possible to identify die pairs before individual dies.

Offline DiggingNorway

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #133 on: December 07, 2011, 01:40:25 PM »
I was thinking, maybe we could somehow post a collection of the obverse of all coins for each year on the type main page... that way one can see all subtypes for the year. Otherwise the page dosent really offer much information value...

Offline DiggingNorway

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #134 on: December 07, 2011, 01:42:43 PM »
Oh... and I got my little baby today  :001_wub:

I think I am converted.... coins in slabs (at least the NGS ones) are actually quite nice. They display the coin great, and just "feels right"...

I would not be surprised if SANDAC came up with 6-7 varities of this one too  :laugh:   (1988 Li Quing Zhao, PFUC 69)