Author Topic: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993  (Read 100444 times)

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Offline SANDAC

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Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« on: November 26, 2011, 09:37:29 PM »
The Historical Figures are 40 silver coins and 10 gold coins minted from 1984 to 1993.  Except the four coins issued in 1992, most silver coins can be purchased today raw for $60-$90 if one shop around.  They (the silver coins) are relatively inexpensive, have a great deal of cultural significance, modestly low mintage (from ~6000 of 1989 to 20K of 1984/1991/1993), and lastly they have a remarkable number of variation.  My recent study shows that at least 30% of the 40 coins have significant varieties, many of them have multiple varieties.  These varieties are significant enough to pass the "fuzzy picture test".  That is to say they can be easily identified even with poor quality photos so frequently encountered on eBay auctions.

Some of the varieties have been discussed here already, but the purpose of this thread is to post these varieties side-by-side with high resolution photos.  Judging by my rate of discovery, I believe there are a lot more varieties out there.  I hope the CCF community can enrich this thread with their own comments and photos.

I will start off with 1990 LiZicheng.  DiggingNorway first mention this coin here.  http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=2880.0   Furthur study shows there are at least 4 varieties that meet the "fuzzy picture test".  They are:
picture 1.  short robe, big gap.  The robe refers to the length of the robe that covers Li Zicheng's right arm.  The gap refers to the space between Li Zicheng's right arm and the group of men & horses.
picture 2.  short robe, small gap.

There are actual a number of varieties within the short robe group, but they are not readily identifiable in low quality pictures.

picture 3.  medium robe, big gap.  I surmise there is also a medium robe, small gap out there somewhere.

picture 4.  Long robe, big gap.  Once again, I surmise there is also a long robe, small gap out there, but I've not find one.

Offline DiggingNorway

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #1 on: November 26, 2011, 09:58:16 PM »
Here are two medium/short robe, small gap

Followed by two medium robe, small gap (I have one more, but no need to post another similar coin)

the two first have shorter robes, but are not as short as the really short version...


Offline YoungC

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #2 on: November 26, 2011, 10:06:40 PM »
> short robe, big gap.  The robe refers to the length of the robe that covers Li Zicheng's right arm

It took me a while to realize you actually mean Li Zicheng's LEFT arm. The arm with hand on the hilt of the sword. :)

Offline DiggingNorway

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #3 on: November 26, 2011, 10:08:03 PM »
I.e what I am suggesting is that the really short robe (SANDAC Photo #1) and the really long robe (where the robe actually connects with the handkerchief) is easily distinguished, but inbetween those etremes there are different degrees of "medium" lenght of the robe.

Clearly the robe is a variety that is consistent, our challenge will be to categorize coins according to the robe and try to find out how many varities in the lenght there are.

The gap variety is easier to define.

So we have two clear indiations: Robe lenght and Gap.
If we assume two varities of gaps and 4 varities of robe lenght. That can be an indicator of number of varities...

Offline SANDAC

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #4 on: November 26, 2011, 10:17:47 PM »
> short robe, big gap.  The robe refers to the length of the robe that covers Li Zicheng's right arm

It took me a while to realize you actually mean Li Zicheng's LEFT arm. The arm with hand on the hilt of the sword. :)

Oops, thank you for pointing that out.  Yes, it is the length of the robe that covers Li Zicheng's LEFT arm.

Offline SANDAC

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #5 on: November 26, 2011, 10:19:48 PM »
Next coin is the 1985 SunWu:
There are shades of variation in the details of the flag between SunWu and the last horseman, but the difference is not obvious in fuzzy pictures.  What is obvious is the length of the flag. 
Picture 1 is the normal length flag
Picture 2 is the short flag

Offline DiggingNorway

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #6 on: November 26, 2011, 10:29:03 PM »
This one was new for me :) cool.

Well here are two long flags, with quite good details. Too me, these coins do not look like restrikes. The relief is high, the details are clear, and the relief is not sandy.


Offline SANDAC

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #7 on: November 26, 2011, 10:30:46 PM »
OK, I'll do another one tonight.
This is the 1987 Chen Wen, it is back to the length of the cape (I call it cape, because it is flowing and fluttering like the Caped Crusader :laugh:).
picture 1 is the normal cape
picture 2 is the short cape

Offline DiggingNorway

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #8 on: November 26, 2011, 10:43:01 PM »
Great!! I only had two of these, and they were both normal cape. Now I know there is a short one too.
And as it stands today it is more rare  :cursing:

Offline DiggingNorway

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #9 on: November 26, 2011, 10:44:54 PM »
what grade did you get on the short cape? and I know its getting late, but I guess the year is 1985, not 1987... its called Chen Sheng and Wu Guang...

Offline SANDAC

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #10 on: November 26, 2011, 11:06:34 PM »
You are right, it is 1985 Chen Sheng and Wu Guang.  That was graded PF68 by NGC

Offline badon

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #11 on: November 27, 2011, 02:01:15 AM »
Time to figure out these varieties using the finest coin information resource ever created, don't you think?

Coin Compendium testing begins!

http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=4588.0

Offline SANDAC

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #12 on: November 27, 2011, 10:32:22 AM »
I am aware of 3 varieties of the 1987 Li Chun:
Picture 1 is the more common “puffy sleeve” Li Chun standing on a solid base.
Picture 2 shows a tight sleeve circled in red.  It is also my experience that tighter the sleeve, greater the separation between Li Chun’s right shoulder and the background bridge (red trapezoid).
Picture 3 shows the vanishing base.  This is not a photographic artifact.  The relief of the base is shallow and become mirror-like, like it is melting into the background field.

Offline DiggingNorway

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #13 on: November 27, 2011, 10:39:19 AM »
Cool. I dont have any coins to compare with, but if I were to guess, I would guess that coin #1 is a restrike.

This based on the sandy relief and the lack of details in the face.

It seems to me that the restrikes were made "hastly", they should grade lower as all patterns and details are more visible on coin 2 and 3. Also the relief has a more mirror-finish on the 2 and 3. This is a rare coin in Norway at least... I have not a single one...

Offline SANDAC

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #14 on: November 27, 2011, 10:50:43 AM »
The subject of “vanishing” something is a recurrent theme with the historical series.  I know of 5 vanishing acts including the 1987 Li Chun above.  I’ll present two more and waiting for better samples of the two others before talking about them.

The 1987 DuFu has a “vanishing hut” variety.  
Picture 1 is the normal hut.  By “normal”, I don’t mean it is more common than the other variety.  It refers to the way the hut should appear normally.
Picture 2 shows the vanishing hut circle in red.  It is more than a weak strike, many components of the hut disappeared altogather.

Offline SANDAC

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #15 on: November 27, 2011, 11:01:34 AM »
The next vanishing act is the 1990 Zheng He.
Picture 1 shows a normal ship in the background. 
Picture 2 show a ship with missing mast as circled in red.  One explaination is that it is a particularly weak strike, but there are other features about the ship, like the way the sails meet the deck of the ship, that are different.  I think these are from different dies.

Offline DiggingNorway

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #16 on: November 27, 2011, 11:07:11 AM »
very interesting, but let us discuss if vanishing effects qualify for variations... do you think they do? I would be more prone to "declare" a variety if the coin showed a clear differet design. If a sail was missing, or if the small wessel on the right was missing, but the rest of the coin was well striked. Wow that would be cool. When we are to kind of try to define varities in this series, especially taken all the different versions into account, we should also discuss criteria as to what represents consistent varities.

Posting all the differences as we do now is an important first step...

Offline DiggingNorway

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #17 on: November 27, 2011, 11:14:06 AM »
Here is my only Zhen He
It is "full mast/normal ship" version.

Offline SANDAC

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #18 on: November 27, 2011, 11:21:01 AM »
I agree we should present all the differences first (Oh, there are so many differences), and then decide whether they are sufficiently apart to be designated as different varieties.
My selection criteria is based on more practical consideration: the "variety" needs to be visually striking so that I can pick them out at a glance or from a fuzzy eBay photo.  Thus the "fuzzy picture test" I mentioned before.  So a lot of varieties I talked about will be based on the difference in contrast between frosted foreground and mirrored background.  I admit, this is but one way of judging varieties.

Offline DiggingNorway

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #19 on: November 27, 2011, 11:31:49 AM »
I agree, my hope is that we will find some consistent way of separating the original production from the re-strikes. If the data on the years of restrikes are correct, this should be possible. Until now my thesis is that
1) Restrikes came double sealed (we have only seen double sealed in the earlier years of the series, when we know restrikes were done) Originals thus came in the boxes and in capsules. I repeat this is a temporarily thesis. We need more data on packaging, including the gold coins.

2) Restrikes have much more sandy reliefs and in general do not show details, like facial features, patterns on baskets, belts, weapons etc as good. The relief is lower, the restrikes appear more "flat".

I do believe that vanishing varities, and different versions could show up in both categories, both the restrikes and the originals, however since I beleive that the restrikes were striked fewer times, and basically were made with less care, the event of vanishing should be more frequently observed in the original strikes. As a consequence; a long sleeve Li Zi Cheng, combined with low relief and little details, and sandy relief would indicate a restrike, however, as far as I know this year was not re-striked. So there are alot of more research to be done here...

Offline DiggingNorway

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #20 on: November 27, 2011, 11:35:54 AM »
btw: I am very curious as to what grade the vanishing hut got! In my opinion that should give the coin a lower grade than when compared with "full hut"... all else equal.

Offline SANDAC

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #21 on: November 27, 2011, 11:44:32 AM »
One way I can contribute to the restrike/original discussion is that I have purchased a dozen of the 1984 General in 1999 or 2000.  They are definitely not restrike.  I've examined them carefully previously.  They are remarkably uniform.  There is only one coin among them that's different, and it is not sufficient obvious to pass the "fuzzy picture test".  We can talk about this coin at some details, sharing photographs, etc.  If the discussion leads to actual physical examination and comparison, I can loan one or more of them to you and/or badon to be examined and compare to others 1984 General.  

Offline SANDAC

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #22 on: November 27, 2011, 11:51:05 AM »
The vanishing hut is also NGC graded PF68.  Now both the vanishing hut and short cape of the 1985 Chen Sheng are purchased off eBay because I spotted the variety difference and don't care about their grade.  So it is entirely possible that the "vanishing" features can receive a 69/70 grade.  In fact, I know the Cai Wenji with fading lettering that I submitted to NGC has received a PF69.  So vanishing during manufacturing does not affect grade.

Offline DiggingNorway

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #23 on: November 27, 2011, 12:19:31 PM »
One way I can contribute to the restrike/original discussion is that I have purchased a dozen of the 1984 General in 1999 or 2000.  They are definitely not restrike.  I've examined them carefully previously.  They are remarkably uniform.  There is only one coin among them that's different, and it is not sufficient obvious to pass the "fuzzy picture test".  We can talk about this coin at some details, sharing photographs, etc.  If the discussion leads to actual physical examination and comparison, I can loan one or more of them to you and/or badon to be examined and compare to others 1984 General. 

I think a high resolution photo will do fine. Why dont you post the photo? So I can compare...

Offline DiggingNorway

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #24 on: November 27, 2011, 12:26:25 PM »
The vanishing hut is also NGC graded PF68.  Now both the vanishing hut and short cape of the 1985 Chen Sheng are purchased off eBay because I spotted the variety difference and don't care about their grade.  So it is entirely possible that the "vanishing" features can receive a 69/70 grade.  In fact, I know the Cai Wenji with fading lettering that I submitted to NGC has received a PF69.  So vanishing during manufacturing does not affect grade.

This leaves me pondering. If grading uncirculated proof coins are suppose to reflect how well the coin looks, e.g. if all the features of the coin are there (!), it should count. That hut is a cool hut, all else equal I would prefer a coin with the full hut, also the text of Cai Wenji, it has a purpose, a meaning, if some of the words are gone, a coin showing the full meaning should get a better grade. I take this as a sign that the graders are not aware of all the varities since they dont have a lot of experience from the coins... a weak strike, or missing features must be graded lower, if not, what is the purpose of grading proof uncirculated coins?

Offline DiggingNorway

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #25 on: November 27, 2011, 01:01:37 PM »
After having reexamined the varities thus far I will argue that the long flag vs. short flag Sun Wu and the Chen Sheng & Wu Gang cape varities are good candidates for varities, better than the Cai wenji and the text and the missing hut.

If I am not mistaken; the former two varities would need a different die? The obviosuly with intent made different designs. Take the cape of Chen Sheng & Wu Gang; they made sure that the upper tie and the elbow and the belt (in the short cape) version was equally good designs as compared to the version where the cape with the folds take of the same space of the blancket.

This is just a proposition, but I feel that these two varities are closer to be declared varities than the vanishing features... any thoughts?

Offline SANDAC

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #26 on: November 27, 2011, 02:21:31 PM »
Oh wait, I'm not done yet.  I have not introduce the third types of variation that's by far the most common in the historical series.  This variation is the equivalent of "super clouded claw", "clouded claw", and "clear claw".  I has to do with whether the mirrored field became the frosted body or vice versa.  You've already ovserved that in Sima Qian and Cai Lun discusstion.  I'll present a few more examples today.

Offline SANDAC

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #27 on: November 27, 2011, 02:29:20 PM »
I think grading is a statement about how well a coin represents the die that struck it.  As long as the coin faithfully represents the impression of the die regardless of how flawed the die is, it will receive a high grade.  In practice, that's all the grader is able to evaluate.  The "first strike" where the die is in pristine condition does receive special mention, but not higher grade.  And yes, I would rather have coins from a pristine die.

Offline badon

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #28 on: November 27, 2011, 02:50:08 PM »
DiggingNorway, I just moved the Li Zicheng photos you uploaded to CCT19 "1990 22 g silver Chinese historical figures 4 coin set". Which side is "officially" the obverse and reverse? I could make a Li Zicheng subtype for CCT19 and call it "1990 22 g silver Chinese historical figures Li Zicheng", but I think you should try it yourself (or SANDAC).

Just go to CCT19 and click "Add a new subtype of this type" and just put in for the type name "1990 22 g silver Chinese historical figures Li Zicheng". Then, you can go back to CCT19, scroll down to where your pictures are shown in the image gallery, and click on them. At the top of the file page, click "Edit", and you can change or the CCT numbers that the image belongs to. So, they should belong to CCT19 AND the new Li Zicheng subtype that you will create.

Don't worry about doing something wrong, because I will fix it, no problem.

Offline DiggingNorway

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #29 on: November 27, 2011, 02:59:29 PM »
I would say that the side with the portrait is the obverse.... the side with the stars is the reverse


Offline badon

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #30 on: November 27, 2011, 03:02:51 PM »
OK, we can go with that convention until we find out something different. We already know it's different for pandas, but I have considered ignore the official idea about it, and just saying the panda is the obverse :)

Offline DiggingNorway

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #32 on: November 27, 2011, 09:31:54 PM »
One way to spot variation in the historical figures is to defocus and think of the mirrored background as “black” and the frosted foreground as “white”.  Then the coin is just some black pattern on white background.  Most of the differences I found this way are mirrored background becoming frosted foreground possibly due to excessive, uneven polishing of the die.  There are numerous examples of this.  At least three of them have already being discussed here in CCF:
CaiLun:  http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=3719.msg25268#msg25268
Sima Qian: http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=3035.msg13453#msg13453
Cai Wenji: http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=2908.msg13449#msg13449

I want to present two more.  There are even more, but I want to get my hand on these coins first before I talk about them.  The first is the 1986 Zhang Heng. 
The first picture is the normal one.
The second picture shows the mirrored fields circled in red are replaced with frosted area.

The other is the 1984 soldier with horse
The first picture is the normal one
The second picture shows the mirrored background between soldier’s body and hand is frosted.

Offline badon

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #33 on: November 27, 2011, 09:44:01 PM »
Can you upload unaltered versions of those photos to the Coin Compendium so we can annotate them using the image annotator?

I set up the kublai khan varieties, and I'm adding specimens and sightings for them now, so I can use them as examples in the Coin Compendium help, so everyone has an idea how it's supposed to work.

Offline SANDAC

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #34 on: November 27, 2011, 09:53:47 PM »
OK, I'm done for now.  There are a few more in the pipeline.  I'm waiting for these coins to come in so I can photograph and present them.  I believe there are a lot more variation yet to be discovered.  With the exception of the 1989 Kublai Khan "small army", most of these varieties are common occurrances and can be found by closely study a dozen or so coins.  I certainly have not yet studied 40 x 12 = 480 historical coins, and furthermore I believe there are rare varieties (like the "small army") that occur 1 in 20 or more.  So happy hunting and I hope you'll report back any new discoveries!

Offline SANDAC

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #35 on: November 27, 2011, 09:55:21 PM »
Can you upload unaltered versions of those photos to the Coin Compendium so we can annotate them using the image annotator?

I set up the kublai khan varieties, and I'm adding specimens and sightings for them now, so I can use them as examples in the Coin Compendium help, so everyone has an idea how it's supposed to work.
Yes, I'll do that now.  I want to get this thread done before exploring coin compendium.  I'm looking forward to that!

Offline badon

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #36 on: November 27, 2011, 09:58:39 PM »
I'm entering some sightings for the Kublai Khan varieties, so hopefully we'll be able to figure out how rare they are.

Offline GDG's

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #37 on: November 27, 2011, 10:14:53 PM »
I would say that the side with the portrait is the obverse.... the side with the stars is the reverse


I think the obverse is usually the side reflecting monetary value.
Digging Norway & SANDAC I find your work on these coins very helpful and interesting. Great thread and thanks.

Offline DiggingNorway

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #38 on: November 30, 2011, 04:34:17 PM »
I got four more coins today at 50USD each, nothing special... no new specimens, but a new box... apparently they changes color every year? Would be great to be able to make a list over box-colors for each year...


Offline badon

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #39 on: November 30, 2011, 05:20:51 PM »
Would be great to be able to make a list over box-colors for each year...

You can do that with the Coin Compendium. Just add the photos to CCT10 by clicking "Add an image for this type" under "Tools", or by clicking "Add an image" in the image gallery section. You can add photos of coins, COA's, boxes, brochures, receipts, auction catalog scans, and even screenshots.

The images you add will help a lot in researching the historical figures series. For example, once the images are uploaded, it will be easy for someone to translate the text on the top of the box into English, or any other language. The site is capable of supporting all of the world's languages, but those features have not been activated yet because the site is still being tested.

I'm proud to report that so far there have been only a few minor bugs discovered. No major problems have been found. That means it may soon be possible to open the site up for use while I work on adding more features.

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #40 on: November 30, 2011, 05:25:51 PM »
Yes, I agree, but I dont hvae the data.... I dont know which box was used what year.... the boxes I have have been sold to me with different issues/years of coins in them... I guess one indicator would be to look at ebay auction that sells full year sets in their OMP...

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #41 on: November 30, 2011, 05:33:09 PM »
Then again maybe not:
here a 1985 set in blue box with red inside:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1985-China-5-Yuan-Proof-Silver-Set-4-Piece-/310330285604?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4841205e24

here a 1985 set with brown box and green inside:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1984-China-5-Yuan-Proof-Silver-Set-4-Piece-/200627503927?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2eb654c337

I guess "economy of scale" was not yet introduced when they minted these coins.. varities in everything!

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #42 on: November 30, 2011, 05:36:24 PM »
You don't have to have that data. CCT10 is the Coin Compendium general type (formerly known as "supertype") for the Chinese historical figures series. We can show all the boxes for all years on that one CCT page. All you have to do is upload the photo, and someone who can read the box can figure out where else it should also go.

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #43 on: November 30, 2011, 06:14:23 PM »
was there a fifth silver coin in 1992? for those who has the new book, check out page 61,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koxinga

it sure looks like it!!

The historical figueres according to this source: http://www.modernchinacoins.com/modernchinacoins/CHINESE_HISTORICAL_FIGURES.html

does NOT mention him... but in the book he is presented together with the 4 others.... and he apparantly was a histroical figuere...


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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #44 on: November 30, 2011, 06:44:57 PM »
I see 5 historical figures listed for 1992 also.

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #45 on: November 30, 2011, 06:46:41 PM »
kind of strange.. BTW the link at the CC for HF, leads to CCT1.... not HF... did u see the mintages for the 1998 fractional pandas btw???  :w00t:

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #46 on: November 30, 2011, 06:52:09 PM »
Whoops, I made a typo on the Historical Figures link. It's fixed now.

Thanks for catching that so quickly. Which fractional 1998 pandas? Are you talking about in the book, or the CC?

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #47 on: November 30, 2011, 07:06:49 PM »
the new book...... they are LOW, but lets not get this thread out of its focus, sorry... I was just shocked.

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #48 on: November 30, 2011, 07:10:24 PM »
It looks like some of the flower shaped lunars are even lower than the 1998 pandas. Fascinating.

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #49 on: November 30, 2011, 07:32:39 PM »
I got four more coins today at 50USD each, nothing special... no new specimens, but a new box... apparently they changes color every year? Would be great to be able to make a list over box-colors for each year...

I annotated your image with info for two of the coins I know about off the top of my head. The set is not a correct set, the coins are from different years:

http://www.CC/wiki/index.php/File:Image_1322698562.jpg

But, the box is probably a good one to have, and hopefully the coins are in nice shape.

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #50 on: November 30, 2011, 07:39:08 PM »
That one photo now appears on at least 3 different pages of the Coin Compendium because of all the helpful information it contains. I'm not sure what the other two coins are, but once they're annotated, the image can be made to appear on the pages for those coins too. Thanks for uploading it.

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #51 on: November 30, 2011, 07:44:02 PM »
OK, I have identified 3 out of the 4 coins for you in the image annotations. I'm not sure what the 4th coin is.

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #52 on: November 30, 2011, 09:54:34 PM »
DiggingNorway, Could you provide a zoomed in picture of Cai Wenji?  I'm curious to know whether the characters are faded like what I have and whether it contains an error in the third character from the bottom.  Thanks

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #53 on: November 30, 2011, 10:04:15 PM »
SANDAC: Great job annotating your Cai Wenji photo. I assume the photo you want from DiggingNorway is the photo of his new Cai Wenji that I annotated on his box photo? Also, do you know what the 4th coin is, that has no annotation?

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #54 on: November 30, 2011, 10:26:57 PM »
Yes, I want to see a close up photo of his new Cai Wenji.  Most of the Cai Wenji I ran across have faded characters.  I start to think the pristine, or first strike version is the rare one.

The 4th coin is Li Da-Zhao.  I annotate it, but I don't know how to link the annotation to CCT23.

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #55 on: November 30, 2011, 10:38:51 PM »
Links look like this in the other annotations:

[[CCT23 | the type name]]

That will link to CCT23, but show the type name as the text you click on to go to CCT23. You can click "Edit" on the other annotations to see what they look like. They're all of that form. Once you do that, you know 90% of what you need to know to do advanced, cool stuff on the Coin Compendium

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #56 on: November 30, 2011, 10:45:14 PM »
Yes, I see.  Very cool

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #57 on: November 30, 2011, 10:55:26 PM »
Great job! I just made a minor edit of your annotation to say "22 g" instead of "22g".

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #58 on: November 30, 2011, 10:57:31 PM »
Image annotation is by far my favorite little feature of the Coin Compendium. It makes it SOOOOOO easy to show things on a photo.

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #59 on: November 30, 2011, 10:58:14 PM »
was there a fifth silver coin in 1992? for those who has the new book, check out page 61,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koxinga

it sure looks like it!!

The historical figueres according to this source: http://www.modernchinacoins.com/modernchinacoins/CHINESE_HISTORICAL_FIGURES.html

does NOT mention him... but in the book he is presented together with the 4 others.... and he apparantly was a histroical figuere...


Zheng Chenggong is a puzzle.  He was clearly an important historical figure and the coin follows the general format of the historical figure coin (5 yuan, name of the figure on top, followed by the year born and year died), but it is not included in the historical figure set.  In Mr. Ge's book it has the same mintage as the other four and grouped together.  So Mr Ge may consider Zheng Chenggong a part of the historical figure set, but that'll make a 41-coin set.  That's just weird.

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #60 on: November 30, 2011, 11:01:42 PM »
China has added extra coins to a series before. For example, the 3 yuan invention & discovery coins they added to the series. Is there any reason to think it's NOT part of the Chinese historical figures set? We can always move it out of the Historical figures series if later we decide it belongs somewhere else. What do you think?

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #61 on: November 30, 2011, 11:14:44 PM »
It has all the look and feel of a historical figure coin, just that it seems to be an after thought and certainly not consistent with the tone of the 1992 historical figures (female figures with gender equality and inter-racial overtone).  It is not part of my historical figure collection right now, but I'm certainly don't have any problem including it in the set.  Maybe I should include it in my own collection as well!  Like you say, we can always move it around later.

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #62 on: November 30, 2011, 11:27:30 PM »
OK, next question, has it been entered as a type into the CC yet? I don't think I have done it. I was just adding some more types to the pandas. The CC can do more than 1 organization method at the same time, so the pandas are going to be sorted by date, metal, size, etc. I've never tested that feature, so I'm sure I'll have to polish it once we find some issues with it, but it is working well so far.

We can organize the Historical figures series similarly, if we need to. The 1992 Zheng Chenggong might be able to get it's own type, just to show people that it is different. Maybe that's the best way to do it for now, until we figure out where to put it :)

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #63 on: November 30, 2011, 11:29:52 PM »
I just added it as CCT293, but under the main Chinese historical figures type, instead of with the 4 coin set.

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #64 on: November 30, 2011, 11:37:04 PM »
Yes, I think that's a good arrangement.  It will be a historical figure coin with an 'asterisk' by it, an oddity.

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #65 on: November 30, 2011, 11:44:08 PM »
http://www.chngc.net/main/D_JBBK/ShowDetail_8360.shtml

Sorry I can't translate.

1992年,“中国杰出历史人物”(第9组)突然转了个急弯。表现在两个方面:首先,按照时间顺序,清朝以后应该是民国,或者为20世纪风云人物,它却以历史上杰出女性人物为主,中间偏偏还夹了个“郑成功”;其他9组都统一“1金4银”模式,它大胆改革,加了1枚银币,形成“1金5银”的格局。1金为“武则天”,5银分别是“萧太后”、“王昭君”、“蔡文姬”、“花木兰”和“郑成功”。

Zheng Chenggong is included in the 5 silver coins set. In total there are 41 silver.


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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #66 on: November 30, 2011, 11:58:26 PM »
If we could get a photo of the 1992 box, it will be interesting to see if it has 5 places or 4 places for coins.

SANDAC, have you seen CCT25? I wrote up an overview of the big army and small army kublai khan, and I used your annotated images in a side-by-side arrangement so it would be easy to see. What do you think?

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #67 on: December 01, 2011, 12:01:24 AM »
I think we could use some cropped zooms on those kublai khan varieties. Have you seen the example I made of the 1995 panda that had a small closeup crop in the annotation, so when you hover over the annotation, it shows you a bigger version of the area under the annotation?

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #68 on: December 01, 2011, 12:04:24 AM »
http://www.chngc.net/main/D_JBBK/ShowDetail_8360.shtml

Sorry I can't translate.

1992年,“中国杰出历史人物”(第9组)突然转了个急弯。表现在两个方面:首先,按照时间顺序,清朝以后应该是民国,或者为20世纪风云人物,它却以历史上杰出女性人物为主,中间偏偏还夹了个“郑成功”;其他9组都统一“1金4银”模式,它大胆改革,加了1枚银币,形成“1金5银”的格局。1金为“武则天”,5银分别是“萧太后”、“王昭君”、“蔡文姬”、“花木兰”和“郑成功”。

Zheng Chenggong is included in the 5 silver coins set. In total there are 41 silver.

The Wibiya toolbar at the bottom of the screen translates that to this:

In 1992, "China's outstanding historical figures" (Section 9) suddenly turned a sharp bend. Manifested in two aspects: first, in chronological order, after the Qing Dynasty is the Republic, or the man of the 20th century, it has outstanding historical female characters based on the middle also happens clip a "Zheng Chenggong"; other 9 groups are unified "1 gold, 4 silver" mode, its bold reforms, added a silver to form a "1 gold, 5 silver," the pattern. 1 gold for "Wu Zetian", 5 silver are "Xiao Queen Mother," "Wang Zhaojun", "Cai Wenji", "Mulan" and "Zheng Chenggong."

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #69 on: December 01, 2011, 11:10:04 AM »
Ok, the Chinese author also shares the same puzzlement as I do.  He expressed it as "sharp detour" and "bold move", but the changes were limited to 1992 only.  By 1993, it is back to the old format.  So the 5 silver coins format of 1992 remains an anomaly with Zheng Chenggong as an real odd ball.  I think it is a good arrangement to assign it to CCT293 as you did.  AND, I am going to collect it as a part of the historical series.  It makes an interesting story.

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #70 on: December 01, 2011, 11:19:25 AM »
Me too. I regard it as part of the series

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #71 on: December 01, 2011, 11:23:13 AM »
Yes I saw the side-by-side photo under CCT25.  Very nice, I think that's where the introduction should be made for the varieties of KK.  I ran across a minor variation of the "big army", and I'll add it under the big army CCT31, but it may warrant elevation to varieties under CCT25.  For ID of these varieties, cropped zoom is a particularly useful technique.  How do I do that?

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #72 on: December 01, 2011, 11:40:13 AM »
The cropped zoom is done using links just like you did with the annotation on DiggingNorway's mismatched set, except it is done with images. Here are the two images for the 1995 panda cropped zoom thing I did as an example:

http://www.CC/wiki/index.php/File:IMG_0629.JPG

http://www.CC/wiki/index.php/File:1995_1_oz_silver_proof_panda_with_white_spots_of_death_3.jpg

The code I used in the annotation for the first file is very simple:

[[File:1995_1_oz_silver_proof_panda_with_white_spots_of_death_3.jpg|frame|This is not a zoom.‎ It is actually a 100% size crop...]]

As you can see, that contains a reference to the second file, the cropped zoom:

File:1995_1_oz_silver_proof_panda_with_white_spots_of_death_3.jpg

Basically, you just go to pixlr and crop out a small area of the full image, but you do not resize it at all. Images are already almost always shown much smaller than their full size, and the cropped "zoom" isn't really a zoom, it's just a part of the image being shown at full size. The "zoom" effect is easy to do, and very helpful.

I also have seen several other varieties of the Kublai Khan that I haven't published yet. Maybe I'll see if I can get someone to make photos of them for me, and I'll upload them to the Coin Compendium so we can compare all the varieties we have discovered.

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #73 on: December 01, 2011, 11:45:05 AM »
Oh, one more thing, I agree about putting the most important varieties as subtypes under the CCT25 Kublai Khan general type, but they should be only the most easily distinguished ones. So far, I haven't seen any other varieties as easily distinguished as the big army and small army, so I'm planning to call all my minor varieties just subtypes under the CCT31 big army type.

Eventually, we can identify every die used. They will all get their own type.

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #74 on: December 01, 2011, 12:07:29 PM »
OK, I figure out the zoom feature.  I actually uploaded a different file that's zoomed and then link to it using [[File:filename.jpg|frame|description]].  Check out the updated CCT32.

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #75 on: December 01, 2011, 12:43:58 PM »
Nice, it looks like you've figured out how to do it! One problem though, the crops are not small enough. Can you crop down to only the area that is highlighted in the annotation? That will make the images a small enough size to not cover up the whole screen when they pop up :)

Also, if you prefer, instead of cropping smaller you can simply resize the photos you have by adding a size like 300px in this example:

[[File:filename.jpg|frame|300px|description]]

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #76 on: December 01, 2011, 12:46:27 PM »
If we could get a photo of the 1992 box, it will be interesting to see if it has 5 places or 4 places for coins.
Xu Hong has a 1992 series for sale with box.  http://www.ebay.com/itm/1992-22g-silver-coin-set-historical-figures-9-/250934627720?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3a6cde8d88

The box contains only 4 coin slots.

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #77 on: December 01, 2011, 12:49:54 PM »
The writing outside of the box makes no reference to date.  So it probably is a generic box for the Historical Figures, which should have 4 coins, except the 1992 set.

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #78 on: December 01, 2011, 02:02:31 PM »
On the small army specimen CC14, I removed the link you added to NGC's verification in the Notes section, since that info is already automatically generated for you. Thanks for testing out all those specimen features. I'm pleased to see everything went smoothly.

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #79 on: December 01, 2011, 05:19:41 PM »
I just received this coin in the mail.  It is a minor variation of the 1989 Kublai Khan Big Army.  The normal Big Army has 10 spears.  This variation only has 7 spears.  The rightmost three spears have totally vanished.  I can't find even trace of them with different lighting.

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #80 on: December 01, 2011, 11:05:08 PM »
Good find! It looks to be in quality condition too. I'll have to check mine to see if I have any of this variety. Luckily for us, the Coin Compendium can easily shuffle around the other two varieties to accommodate this new one. We might have to start naming them according to how many spears there are. If I remember correctly, the big army has 10 spears. How many does the small army have? Did you put this variety on the Coin Compendium?

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #81 on: December 02, 2011, 01:20:12 PM »
This leaves me pondering. If grading uncirculated proof coins are suppose to reflect how well the coin looks, e.g. if all the features of the coin are there (!), it should count. That hut is a cool hut, all else equal I would prefer a coin with the full hut, also the text of Cai Wenji, it has a purpose, a meaning, if some of the words are gone, a coin showing the full meaning should get a better grade. I take this as a sign that the graders are not aware of all the varities since they dont have a lot of experience from the coins... a weak strike, or missing features must be graded lower, if not, what is the purpose of grading proof uncirculated coins?
I sent off some of the coins I presented on this thread to NCS/NGC and here are some results I just received:
1.  The 1990 Zheng He with vanishing mast received PF69
http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=4585.msg25370#msg25370

2. The 1990 LiZicheng short robe, small gap received PF69
The 1990 LiZicheng Long robe, big gap received PF68
The 1990 LiZicheng medium robe, big gap received PF68
http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=4585.msg25323#msg25323

3. The 1987 Li Chun Tight sleeve received PF67
The 1987 Li Chun Vanishing base received PF68
The coins have some scratches and rubs so both these grades were expected. 
http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=4585.msg25367#msg25367

The bottom lines:  Vanishing features do not seem to affect a coin's grade.

I'll post all them on CC after I received them and have the opportunity to take better photos of them.

Offline DiggingNorway

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #82 on: December 02, 2011, 03:01:02 PM »
DiggingNorway, Could you provide a zoomed in picture of Cai Wenji?  I'm curious to know whether the characters are faded like what I have and whether it contains an error in the third character from the bottom.  Thanks

Here is  my two specimens..

Offline SANDAC

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #83 on: December 02, 2011, 03:22:07 PM »
OK, so it looks just like the same Vanishing-characters-excessive-frosting-with-character-error coins that I have so many of.  A perfect (first strike?) Cai Wenji seems hard to find.  I know they exist because of this photo:

Offline DiggingNorway

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #84 on: December 02, 2011, 03:24:05 PM »
wow that was a nice strike!

Offline SANDAC

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #85 on: December 02, 2011, 03:34:59 PM »
Yep, that coin was sold on eBay June 26, 2011 for $285, which was possibly the highest raw historical coins sold.  There was 29 bids.  I think we are behind the curve.  Some guys out there is/are cornering the 1992 historical figures market.

Offline badon

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #86 on: December 02, 2011, 04:24:09 PM »
Annotate those images on the Coin Compendium. That will be very helpful info. I don't know of any other historical figures to have sold ungraded for more than $285! We should add it as a sighting if we can find the ebay link.

Offline DiggingNorway

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #87 on: December 02, 2011, 04:29:39 PM »
Yep, that coin was sold on eBay June 26, 2011 for $285, which was possibly the highest raw historical coins sold.  There was 29 bids.  I think we are behind the curve.  Some guys out there is/are cornering the 1992 historical figures market.

I think the series are gathering more interest; more coins are graded, one shouldent try to target a specific year in my opinion, rather just buy all the coins in the series one can get, for good prices.. The "jewel" of this series will be a complete set, with the gold coins, in as highest grade as possible, and with the OMP intact.... that will be an auction item in the future... so if one wants to get there, one will have to buy every single coin one can afford and find for a reasonable price... thats my strategy anyway...

I am following 5-6 ebay auctions currently (and bidding) some of them I will let go at 50-60USD as the pictures are lousy... others are more interesting

Offline badon

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #88 on: December 02, 2011, 04:51:21 PM »
I'm making some minor tweaks to the type names so it all matches the same format:

date weight oz metal series coin

to look like this:

1984 1/3 oz gold Chinese historical figures Qin Shi Huang

One thing I'm not sure about is where the variety name should go. For pandas, it's BEFORE the series/coin part:

1998 1/2 oz gold large date panda ("large date")
1995 1 oz silver proof panda ("proof")

For the historical figures, so far we've been putting the variety name AFTER the coin/series part:

1989 22 g silver Chinese historical figures Kublai Khan big army

Maybe we should put it before, like this:

1989 22 g silver Chinese historical figures big army Kublai Khan

What do you think? Also, notice that there's no need for commas, and capitalization is usually unnecessary except in names like "China" and "Kublai Khan".

Offline DiggingNorway

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #89 on: December 02, 2011, 05:17:31 PM »
For HF i think variety should be AFTER...

Offline badon

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #90 on: December 02, 2011, 05:24:21 PM »
I kind of like them after also, but I don't know why :) Maybe it's because they're more minor varieties than the panda examples?

Offline DiggingNorway

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #91 on: December 02, 2011, 05:27:04 PM »
It think we should use after becuase there will probably be 3-4 varities of some of the coins!! and some coins will have none.... putting them before does not seem logic if you think in systematic way where you increase specificiy from the beggining of the name to the end

Offline DiggingNorway

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #92 on: December 02, 2011, 06:35:21 PM »
a 1991 Hong Xu Quaan RAW was sold for 87,50USD after 18 bids, ended 2. dec. , seller: mz67

Offline SANDAC

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #93 on: December 02, 2011, 07:25:29 PM »
It think we should use after becuase there will probably be 3-4 varities of some of the coins!! and some coins will have none.... putting them before does not seem logic if you think in systematic way where you increase specificiy from the beggining of the name to the end
Agree, I think the name should start with the most general description, becoming increasingly specific as it goes on.  This way when a new variety is added, we only need to append the additional description to the end.

Offline badon

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #94 on: December 02, 2011, 08:53:46 PM »
OK, then that's what we will do, at least for the historical figures, since the experts have spoken :) As for the pandas, I think the convention is to put the variety before the word "panda", so we may need to do it differently. Of course, we can make it like the historical figures convention if we decide that's clearly the best way to do it, and it won't confuse people.

As long as it makes good sense, it's OK if we use slightly different standards for each series. Each series is different! It will get more interesting when the CC starts doing American coins, European coins, ancient coins, etc, etc, etc. There's a lot of coins out there to study using the CC's awesome tools.

Offline badon

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #95 on: December 03, 2011, 12:17:09 AM »
I just added some nifty features to the main page that shows everything new that's being added or updated on the site. Check it out! It's pretty cool how fast it's growing, and how interesting the data is, even with only a few people testing it.

Offline chinesecoinworks

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #96 on: December 03, 2011, 04:26:26 AM »
Since we are at the naming part, I have a question about naming of the Terracotta Army. Moderncoin site names them soldier(left), soldier(right), soldier (kneeling), soldier (with horse). I see NGC naming the Kneeling Archer as Warrior KM 98 or Kneeling Fire.

This is what I would call them (though I'm waiting for them to return from NGC): Terracotta Army General, Terracotta Army Officer, Terracotta Army Kneeling Archer, Terracotta Army Horseman.

Also, the correct Hanyu Pinyin for Hong XU Quan should be Hong XIU Quan. Are we changing that or sticking to what he is known as?

Offline badon

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #97 on: December 03, 2011, 01:38:44 PM »
I like your idea of naming them correctly. The images and text in the description can inform people of how to tell by the direction they are facing, or whether there's a horse also, etc.

I dislike Pinyin because it is neither Chinese, nor English, and is mutually unintelligible. If possible, I'd like translate the pinyin to English so it can be phonetically pronounced. Since the site will eventually support the Chinese language, there's no need for an intermediate language like Pinyin. Of course, we can mention in the descriptions what the pinyin version is, so it will show up in searches.

Since I don't know pinyin, I would need help with translating to English. So far, it seems like "Xu" in "Xu Hong" should be translated to "Shu". Also, I noticed that NGC's label for "Fu, Lu, Shou" should be "Fu, Lu, Sho" since the last part is pronounced "Sho" from what I've heard from native Chinese speakers. Of course, there are variations in the pronunciation of Chinese, so I'm really going to rely on the people who know the quirks of the Chinese language better than I do in order to get this right, if that's what we finally decide to do.

Is it possible to get rid of pinyin and translate to pronounceable English? We make all the rules, so we can do whatever we think is best, regardless of what NGC, PCGS, or any other source does. And, we can note all the variations very easily, so no one will have trouble finding it using whatever search terms they prefer.

What do you think?

Offline badon

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #98 on: December 03, 2011, 05:17:21 PM »
DiggingNorway, I fixed sighting CCS12 that you entered in. You had put types in both the type field and the specimen field. The type field should only get CCT numbers and the specimen field should get CC numbers.

A sighting can be added to either types or specimens by just clicking the "add a sighting" link. If you want to add a sighting for a specimen, you have to enter the specimen into the CC first by going to the right type page and clicking the "add a new specimen" link. Then, you will be able to add a sighting for the specimen.

Adding a sighting for a specimen should also automatically add it for the type too, but the sightings lists aren't working yet on all the new types we have, so it probably won't show up except on the front page. There is no problem with the sighting system, I just need to adjust some minor things to make it work for everything, if I can. If I can't, then I can add a sightings list to each type page by hand.

Sighting lists should be showing up for specimens though.

Offline DiggingNorway

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #99 on: December 03, 2011, 05:18:47 PM »
right... so before a sighting, there must have been created a specimen, gotcha..

Offline badon

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #100 on: December 03, 2011, 05:24:56 PM »
Yes, except if the sighting is for an ungraded or unidentifiable coin (can't see the certification number). Then, the sighting should be added to the type from the link on the type page. I changed the links on the type page to be a little more simple, so I hope it helps you find the right one easily. I'll do the same thing to the specimen page links too.

Offline chinesecoinworks

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #101 on: December 03, 2011, 09:55:11 PM »
Yes, badon, let's take the lead with naming conventions. The rest could follow.  ;)

I think I might have got the third variety of Zhang Heng here.
It's a combination of first and second variety.
It is frosted near the robe but mirrored at the globe.
http://chinesepandacoin.blogspot.com/2011/12/1986-chinese-historical-figures-silver.html

Offline DiggingNorway

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #102 on: December 03, 2011, 10:08:37 PM »
bidding for raw coins of the HF are fierce... many bidders and prices touching 100USD in auctions for raw coins

Offline badon

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #103 on: December 04, 2011, 12:38:29 AM »
I have noticed that. BobW was asking about them somewhere on this forum, and he's a savvy buyer. When people like him are chasing them, you know something is happening.

Offline SANDAC

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #104 on: December 04, 2011, 12:05:15 PM »
I think I might have got the third variety of Zhang Heng here.
It's a combination of first and second variety.
It is frosted near the robe but mirrored at the globe.
http://chinesepandacoin.blogspot.com/2011/12/1986-chinese-historical-figures-silver.html
That's definitely another frosting variation.  The historical figures have such wide range of frosting variation, I'm at lost as to how to catagorize them.  In my own HF variation guide, I just circle the areas where frosting variation are observed and make no attempt to name them.  Some coin, like the 1986 Cai Lun has 5 circles now.

Offline badon

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #105 on: December 04, 2011, 01:26:45 PM »
SANDAC, we can just start giving them numbers in the order that they are recorded in the Coin Compendium. I would call them "die 1", "die 2", etc. If there's no snazzy name we can come up with for them, then they're probably just minor varieties. Maybe later, as they're all discovered, we can organize and name them better.

Put them under the main specific type for the coin, instead of putting them under other variety types. The vanishing spears variety of the 1989 Kublai Khan is the only one I noticed that's organized under another variety. I would have fixed it myself, but I was experimenting on it in some tests yesterday, so I didn't touch it :)

Offline chinesecoinworks

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #106 on: December 04, 2011, 05:18:07 PM »
That's definitely another frosting variation.  The historical figures have such wide range of frosting variation, I'm at lost as to how to catagorize them.  In my own HF variation guide, I just circle the areas where frosting variation are observed and make no attempt to name them.  Some coin, like the 1986 Cai Lun has 5 circles now.

Oh Cai Lun has so many variations? Hmm ... I'll put up my Cai Lun later for your viewing.

Offline DiggingNorway

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #107 on: December 04, 2011, 05:20:56 PM »
yes please do so... this thread is created to get as many good photos of the series as possible (high resolution) :)

Offline r3globe

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #108 on: December 04, 2011, 06:26:36 PM »
As of yesterday, I saw 2 Kublai Khan varieties. How about the 3rd one with the fewer spears on the right? I have at least a couple of those.

Offline chinesecoinworks

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #109 on: December 04, 2011, 07:12:35 PM »
Alright, here goes ... My 1986 set ...
http://chinesepandacoin.blogspot.com/2011/12/1986-chinese-historical-figures-silver.html

Somehow, it makes me feel that those frosty parts that were supposed to be mirrored are imperfect strikes rather than die variety.  :confused1:

Offline SANDAC

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #110 on: December 04, 2011, 07:21:56 PM »
There are three variety mechanism affecting the Kublai Khan.  The first is the misshapen pyramid which is a real variety difference.  The 2nd is the vanishing spears, and the third, a very minor one, is the frosting difference in the eave of the building.  The "small army" is misshapen pyramid with 3 left-most spears consistently missing and a possible mirrored/frosted field under the eave, but I've also noticed the remaining 7 spears of the small army vanishing.  My sample is too small to draw more definitive sub-varieties.  For the KK where the pyramid is intact, you can generally see 10 spears, but they can fade significantly and not obvious to the naked eyes.  I can reliably see all 10 spears under 10X stereo microscope, until this one showed up:  http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=4585.msg25710#msg25710

Just show you that there are plenty to discover in the HF series.

Offline SANDAC

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #111 on: December 04, 2011, 07:42:23 PM »
Every one of the 1986 HF set has one or more frosting variation.  CCF discussed three of them already.  Here is the difference I noted about Zu Chong Zhi.

I tend to see the frosting variation as the difference between pristine die and worn-out die.  But I know so little about the minting process and like to hear other explainations.

Offline DiggingNorway

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #112 on: December 04, 2011, 07:59:20 PM »
Sandac: your eyes for details are really impressing... I am still contemplating about what would qualify as varieties though... Obviously we find many frosting varieties and I believe much more than normal for such a low montage series.

Offline DiggingNorway

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #113 on: December 04, 2011, 08:04:53 PM »
One first objective could be to see if we could find years that were more consistent... With less variation, 1984 seems quite consistent? I can't find any variations that are very obvious yet atleast.. bottomline is we need to gather more and more data...

Offline SANDAC

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #114 on: December 04, 2011, 08:12:40 PM »
I felt I've only scratched the surface.  So far I've only concentrated on 3 areas: obvious die variation, vanishing features, and frosting variation.  You no doubt have noticed the general appearance can vary from frosty to shiny and the strike can have deep relief or shallow relief.  It is truly amazing such relatively small mintage coins should have such great variety.  Your original suggestion is good:  let's capture all the differences and try to sort them out later.

Offline SANDAC

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #115 on: December 04, 2011, 08:14:55 PM »
One first objective could be to see if we could find years that were more consistent... With less variation, 1984 seems quite consistent? I can't find any variations that are very obvious yet atleast.. bottomline is we need to gather more and more data...
Yes, 1984 seems to have the smallest amount of variation.  I believe it also had the greatest mintage of the HF series.  I'm in the process of taking high-def picture of every 1984 I have and post them in CC.

Offline badon

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #116 on: December 05, 2011, 01:27:19 AM »
Most of these varieties are caused by either a frosting mistake, or an excessive polishing mistake. Most of these kinds of varieties are usually considered unimportant for high mintage coins. But, if the mistake is very noticeable and has a good name, it can become very popular and valuable even in a high mintage series.

A good example of a polishing mistake is the American 3 legged buffalo nickel. I think most Americans have heard of it, even if they don't collect coins. The die was polished too much, and one of the legs of the buffalo disappeared. The Kublai Khan varieties where the army spears were polished away are also very noticeable and have a good name, so they are must-have collector coins, just like the 3 legged buffalo nickel.

The other varieties may not be very noticeable, and in a high mintage series, they would probably be ignored for a very long time. They aren't easy to give a good name, so we may have to just give them die (or die state) numbers. This is what happened for the American Morgan dollars. Millions were minted using thousands of dies, and collectors love that series of coins so much, they are trying to identify all known dies used to make the coins. Once dies get identified, it becomes extremely difficult to make fakes, by the way.

Since all the Historical Figures coins are low mintage, I think all varieties are important, even if they're only die identifications. In fact, all modern Chinese coin varieties are important, no matter how minor.

If you notice, all older coins eventually get their dies identified. The Coin Compendium will make this process happen faster, and since Chinese coins are the first to be entered in, it will probably cause prices to rise, since collectors will try to find all varieties and dies once there is information available to aid them in the new challenge.

Offline badon

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #117 on: December 05, 2011, 02:11:02 AM »
Wow, I just noticed there are FOUR different varieties of the Li Zicheng (CCT24) entered in by SANDAC! This is fantastic research being documented with the Coin Compendium. Great job SANDAC!

Offline badon

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #118 on: December 06, 2011, 03:48:59 AM »
Have we decided which side is the "obverse" for the historical figures series?

Offline SANDAC

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #119 on: December 06, 2011, 10:34:00 AM »
Here is my rationalization:  My bible used to be Krause Standard Cat of World Coins, but since CC does not refer to Krause much, but refer NGC/PCGS regularly.  Furthurmore, NGC has a big presence in modern Chinese coins, so I felt it is reasonable to follow NGC's convention.  NGC's slab front is obverse.  Beside it is easy to change and I don't have my ego wrapped around this issue.

Offline badon

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #120 on: December 06, 2011, 01:33:30 PM »
My bible used to be Krause

You have no idea how happy that little phrase just made me :)

Here is my rationalization:  My bible used to be Krause Standard Cat of World Coins, but since CC does not refer to Krause much, but refer NGC/PCGS regularly.  Furthurmore, NGC has a big presence in modern Chinese coins, so I felt it is reasonable to follow NGC's convention.  NGC's slab front is obverse.  Beside it is easy to change and I don't have my ego wrapped around this issue.

Yes, it is easy to change, but remember, the CC will accumulate a LOT of data very fast once it gets opened to the public. It will require someone to go through each image and change it if we decide to change something. There could be thousands or millions of images...

So, it is wise to decide in early testing how we want to do it. I think this was discussed somewhere else at CCF for pandas, and if I remember correctly, it was decided to stick with the official idea because that's what Chinese collectors are used to. Like you, I don't really care either way, so long as it is consistent and does not confuse people.

That's one reason why I changed the terminology just for slabs. "obverse" and "reverse" would not make sense for slabs, since the "slab front" always shows the "artistic" side of the coins, even if China officially thinks that side is the reverse.

So, the problem is mostly solved for specimens I guess, except for close ups of only the coin. For types, the terminology is only "obverse" and "reverse", and we need to decide early on what exactly that means so we don't have to go back later and change too many images.

Now that I think about it, the types mostly show only ungraded coins, and they are representative for the type, so there isn't much need for a lot of photos on each type YET. So, the problem isn't that big of deal.

But, I just had a thought that it would be nice to mark "obverse" and "reverse" closeup images of graded coins with the grade. That way, you can easily generate a list of images of all 69, 68, 67, etc grade coins. That would make it easy to learn grading.

What do you think of that possible feature? I can easily add it any time, once we have enough data to make it useful. It'll be cool to compare grading standards between NGC and PCGS that way.

Offline SANDAC

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #121 on: December 06, 2011, 03:34:55 PM »
I know Krause and China Mint may have a different idea of what obverse is (and they are not necessarily consistent with each other), but for the regular Joe-six-pack of collectors, the obverse is synonymous with "head", "front", and the features that differentiate a coin from other coins.  If I want to sell a coin on eBay, I want to put the picture that most readily identify a coin as the first picture.  That is the obverse.  I think it is the intuitive approach that most people can agree with.  This does bring up a point:  It is still too early to write a "CC style guide", but I do think a consistent look-and-feel is a worthy goal even at this early stage.  The best way to reach a style guide is through examples, discussion, and consensus building process which you are doing a great job of.  Eventually, in the name of consistency, a style guide does need to nailed down and you are the man with the big hammer.   ;)

Offline r3globe

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #122 on: December 06, 2011, 03:43:55 PM »
I am not sure if you guys went over this, but I just found one of my Kublai Khan's with 8 Spears. 2 spears are missing in-between the 2 rightmost background soldiers.

Offline badon

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #123 on: December 06, 2011, 03:57:51 PM »
So we have Kublai Khan's with 10 spears, 8 spears, and 7 spears? Maybe we need to rename the types again.

Offline badon

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #124 on: December 06, 2011, 04:01:05 PM »
I know Krause and China Mint may have a different idea of what obverse is (and they are not necessarily consistent with each other), but for the regular Joe-six-pack of collectors, the obverse is synonymous with "head", "front", and the features that differentiate a coin from other coins.  If I want to sell a coin on eBay, I want to put the picture that most readily identify a coin as the first picture.  That is the obverse.  I think it is the intuitive approach that most people can agree with.  This does bring up a point:  It is still too early to write a "CC style guide", but I do think a consistent look-and-feel is a worthy goal even at this early stage.  The best way to reach a style guide is through examples, discussion, and consensus building process which you are doing a great job of.  Eventually, in the name of consistency, a style guide does need to nailed down and you are the man with the big hammer.   ;)

I agree with you completely. If I were able to just make a choice for myself, the "design side" would be the obverse, according to the standards spelled out here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obverse_and_reverse

But, the problem may arise when Chinese people start using the CC. Someone around here has said that Chinese collectors follow the official terminology convention. If that's true (and we decide not to try to change it), then it will confuse Chinese users of the Coin Compendium if we don't follow it too.

Offline SANDAC

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #125 on: December 06, 2011, 06:20:38 PM »
I am not sure if you guys went over this, but I just found one of my Kublai Khan's with 8 Spears. 2 spears are missing in-between the 2 rightmost background soldiers.

That two particular spears are prone to "vanish".  If you look at this item on NGC:
http://www.ngccoin.com/certlookup/CertResults.aspx?CertNumber=4049865-004

You'll swear that these two spears are completely gone.  That happens to be one of mine and with a different lighting, you can still see the spears.  It is possible that in your particular coin these two spears are completely gone, but you need to look at them under a magnifier to determine that.

Offline badon

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #126 on: December 06, 2011, 06:54:18 PM »
SANDAC, it would be interesting to show the effect different lighting in showing or hiding the 2 vanishing spears on the 8 spears variety.

Offline badon

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #127 on: December 06, 2011, 06:54:57 PM »
I think a small crop of the NGC image to compare with your other images would constitute fair use.

Offline SANDAC

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #128 on: December 06, 2011, 07:37:15 PM »
I look at r3globe's picture again and I think it is the "missing link" from the full 10-spear KK to the 7-spear KK I talked about a few days ago here: http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=4585.msg25710#msg25710

Here are a sequence of photos to illustrate the progression of the vanishing spears:
1.  This is a normal big army KK.
2.  The 3 rightmost spears are fading
3.  They are fading even more, the is the zoom of NGC 4049865-004
4.  r3globe's 8-spear zoom in
5.  7-spear zoom of http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=4585.msg25710#msg25710

Offline SANDAC

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #129 on: December 06, 2011, 07:40:17 PM »
You can see on the last picture that the right most 2 spear are almost gone.  Just another sequence in the vanishing progression.  So here ia s challenge to the CCF community:  Can you find a 5-spear version of KK?

Offline SANDAC

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #130 on: December 06, 2011, 07:48:32 PM »
It will be the coveted "Tiny Army" with the "Micro Army" not far behind!   :lol:

Offline badon

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #131 on: December 06, 2011, 08:09:33 PM »
Fantastic research! I'm looking for die identification signs to see if it is truly a "progression" with just one die being worn, repolished, worn, repolished, etc. It's the polishing that erases the spears.

The 2nd, 3rd, and last photo have lost detail in frosted areas due to being excessively frosted and also possibly wear prior to frosting. That is a clue that the dies were recycled by refrosting and repolishing more than once. The polishing erases the spears, while the refrosting erases the details and rounds everything to look "soft".

The one thing that is unique for every die, always, is the frosting. It is produce in a process that is uncontrolled and random at the small scale. So, if you can find bumps that are identical on two coins, they are almost certainly from the same die.

Wear follows the frosting, because the frosting wears first. That means the wear on each die should be slightly different too, and it may be possible to match up coins to a single die even if the coins were made before and after the die was polished and refrosted. That will be a  challenge though.

Just looking at this set of photos, it appears to me that there are at least 2 completely different dies. I would have to study more to see if I can figure out more info, but I am already sure that the "progression" is not just one die.

Offline badon

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #132 on: December 07, 2011, 03:55:51 AM »
SANDAC, I've noticed that you're only uploading photos of the design side of the coins. Research is greatly aided by seeing the other side of the coin, since it is possible to identify die pairs before individual dies.

Offline DiggingNorway

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #133 on: December 07, 2011, 01:40:25 PM »
I was thinking, maybe we could somehow post a collection of the obverse of all coins for each year on the type main page... that way one can see all subtypes for the year. Otherwise the page dosent really offer much information value...

Offline DiggingNorway

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #134 on: December 07, 2011, 01:42:43 PM »
Oh... and I got my little baby today  :001_wub:

I think I am converted.... coins in slabs (at least the NGS ones) are actually quite nice. They display the coin great, and just "feels right"...

I would not be surprised if SANDAC came up with 6-7 varities of this one too  :laugh:   (1988 Li Quing Zhao, PFUC 69)

Offline badon

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #135 on: December 07, 2011, 01:46:20 PM »
I was thinking, maybe we could somehow post a collection of the obverse of all coins for each year on the type main page... that way one can see all subtypes for the year. Otherwise the page dosent really offer much information value...

I agree! In fact, I agree so much that that is EXACTLY what I have been working on for the last few days. It works for types and sightings, so once I fix a few annoying bugs, I can make it work for images too. Types will then show images from all subtypes and all specimens. I can make it show sighting images too, but I don't think that will be as useful. MAYBE in the sightings section, I can try it to see if it provides useful info or not.

Offline badon

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #136 on: December 07, 2011, 01:48:02 PM »
Oh... and I got my little baby today  :001_wub:

I think I am converted.... coins in slabs (at least the NGS ones) are actually quite nice. They display the coin great, and just "feels right"...

I would not be surprised if SANDAC came up with 6-7 varities of this one too  :laugh:   (1988 Li Quing Zhao, PFUC 69)

I switched around the main images for the specimen to show the slabs instead of the closeups, and I added the closeups as main images to the type (CCT324) for the specimen (CC51). They are gorgeous photos you made, and the coin does look very nice.

Offline DiggingNorway

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #137 on: December 07, 2011, 01:48:20 PM »
I would simply suggest that you "export" the main photos from each subtype and gave them a "box" each, neaxt to eatchother on the maintype page....

Offline badon

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #138 on: December 07, 2011, 01:49:48 PM »
I will see if I can do that now, and then I'll get back to fixing bugs after that.

Offline DiggingNorway

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #139 on: December 07, 2011, 01:54:57 PM »
I tried to cross off the box for "this is the main photo" under specimen when I uploaded the slab images... but it came under the image gallery.

I have noticed that in order to become the main photo one must click the slab front / slab back - upload photo link.

So I am not sure what the "main" check box when uploading photos (at any level) really are good for. If you upload under image gallery it will appear there anyhow, and not as the main photo. This also goes for subtypes as far as I know.

At specimen level this will not be a problem, since only one photo will ever depict that excact specimen; that is: UNTIL IT CHANGES OWNER and he/she might want to change the specimen's main photo of one of his/hers own.

Greater challenges at subtype level: Here you can imagine that more people want there specimen to be the "main" photo for the subtype.

What are the rules of the game? "First come first", or; "last changer/uploader wins".... the ideal situation had been that the compendium would automatically at subtype level choose the image with the highest grade and the newest uploaded. With grade having priority. This way people are given a "bonus" of having their specimen representing the subtype if they upload a photo of a high grade.

what do you think?

Offline badon

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #140 on: December 07, 2011, 02:11:54 PM »
Hmm, that's a good observation. The form is not at all clear about exactly what those checkboxes do. That's partly because they don't do anything by themselves, they just mark an image, so other parts of the site can find them and choose which image to display. For example, "main" slab front and slab back images are shown on specimen pages, because it makes it easy to verify the certification number. The "main" obverse and reverse images are shown on type pages IF the image is added to a type page.

Now that I think about it, I think that was supposed to be done automatically when you added images to your specimen. The system I've been working on will fix that.

The "rules" are to show the best image. Right now there's not a lot of images, but once there are, people who are bored can scrutinize each image to find the nicest one. It's not very important, since the images are shown so small, but choosing the best images will be helpful for people who want to click on the image and look at details.

I haven't finished the inventory system yet, even though it does sort of work a little without doing much that's interesting. The inventory system will deal with the question of who owns a coin. It will be possible for more than one person to claim ownership, since sometimes many people own a single very expensive coin.

Also, sometimes someone will claim ownership, but then their coins get sold without them updating their ownership claim. When that happens, the system should be able to pick a single owner based on who most recently claimed ownership, and if that doesn't work, an administrator (me) will be able to update it.

I very much like the idea of having the system automatically choose a coin with the highest grade to represent a type. The system is blind though, so it can't tell if the photo is good quality or not. A lower grade specimen may have a better photo on the system, so it's important to still allow people to manually select the "main" image. But, if no "main" image has been manually selected, it will be easy for me to make the system automatically choose the most recent, highest grade specimen to show, as long as the "obverse" and "reverse" or "slab front" and "slab back" are selected correctly.

Doing that automatically by default will be one less thing people will have to think about, so I like your idea because it will make the site more user friendly. Once that system is working, I can put better explanations of what each form feature does, and also note which ones people can ignore if they don't understand them. Thanks for such a great idea! It will be a good test of the image handling system once it's ready. I'll set up the image system, and then fix the bugs I was working on, and then add the automatic image features.

Offline badon

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #141 on: December 07, 2011, 02:14:03 PM »
One more thing, I can automatically generate lists of images that don't have obverse and reverse specified. I can generate all kinds of lists of things that have something that needs to be done to them. It will make it quick and easy for people who know the system best to go in and fix stuff, to ensure that the CC gives accurate research data. I'll make it as quick and easy as possible.

It's a lot of work to make things so easy, but I only have to do it once, and then you can do it 1000 times :)

Offline DiggingNorway

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #142 on: December 07, 2011, 02:18:11 PM »
looking forward.... to make the system able to pick the right photo for the main photo for subtype, one could simply make boxes under uploading photos that checks: graded/slabbed or not, and enter grade, much like what one does when one creates specimens...

regardless: at type level, assuming there are subtypes, a single main picture makes no sense. Onw would like to have a gallery that shows one (preferably the best ones) subtype of each type for the type's main page....

Offline DiggingNorway

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #143 on: December 07, 2011, 02:21:35 PM »
but I am a computer imbesile :)... I can work with statistical software (SPSS, Eviews etc) but I have no chance in H*** to do the kind of "programming" you and SANDAC are up to.... I'll have a beer and wait and see what you come up with for the type page image idea....

main message: at type level, one picture of the obverse of each subtype should be shown in the gallery, it should be automatically generated, even if that means that in the event no main photo of the subtype yet exist, there would be a "blank" image-square there.... (to be filled in by motivated data gatherers! :) )

Offline DiggingNorway

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #144 on: December 07, 2011, 02:46:07 PM »
might I suggest you create a separate type for CCT12 World Historical Figueres?
This is a complete different series, and it also creates problems later when the pages that describes types, aubtypes and spceimens are likely to take a more specific form than the standard shape they have today..

also CCT12 is a series that justifies its own type, there is no point in making "historical figueres" a type, and then adding the complexcity of dividing it into two subtype: Chinese HF and World HF.

I suggest: move C10 Chinese Historical Figueres to front page and C12 World Historical figueres to the front page, especially now, that you have put all the coins under the "supertype" CCT405

these are two completely different series.... they only happen to have the same "theme".... it will also encourage people to make some contributions to the world HF.... myself for instance are not a stranger of starting to collect these... or you can recruit a new test-pilot for the series... now its been "hidden" under the chinese HF series' attention....

Offline badon

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #145 on: December 07, 2011, 03:09:50 PM »
I think of them as the same series, in two parts. They're frequently described the same too. Putting them together under the same hierarchy makes it easy for someone to keep track of both of them at the same time. It will be handy to gauge the overall interest in the entire series. Of course, since the Coin Compendium can handle any organization method, including more than one simultaneously, I think what you really want is for me to just make them both visible on the main page. I just did that - take a look and tell me what you think.

We can change the current organization if we decide it needs to be changed. Right now, I think putting them together makes sense for people who are interested in both series.

Offline DiggingNorway

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #146 on: December 07, 2011, 03:10:59 PM »

Offline DiggingNorway

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #147 on: December 07, 2011, 03:13:19 PM »
they have different: size, purity, start year and ending year.... in addition they cover totally different persons... Mozart...!

Offline DiggingNorway

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #148 on: December 07, 2011, 03:15:30 PM »
but I prefer the new start page.... but then you will have to, in order to be consistent, divide all sorts of coins into the same "supertype".... "animals", "sports", "buildings" etc etc etc... my argument is also that the two series might have a completely different audience of collectors...

Offline badon

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #149 on: December 07, 2011, 03:37:52 PM »
they have different: size, purity, start year and ending year.... in addition they cover totally different persons... Mozart...!

Yes, but they're still historical figures. That's the only thing the two types need to have in common to be placed together. It's sort of like putting all the silver coins under a silver type. All they need to have in common is that they're silver.

Of course, I COULD just take off CCT407 from the main page, so it is sort of "hidden".

If I get rid of CCT407 completely, then it will be impossible for anyone to look at data from both types simultaneously. Notice that the pandas can be sorted by size, by metal, and by year (no one has done the sorting yet, but all the types are there for it). There's even a type for fakes! CCT29 is a fake 1995 1 oz silver panda that's is also under other types too.

Once we have more data to sort through, you will see that providing many different (sensible) ways to sort it is very helpful. CCT407 isn't an announcement that world historical figures and chinese historical figures are the same series - instead, it's just a way to gather data on both types into one place.

Maybe SANDAC will wander over here and tell us what he thinks too.

but I prefer the new start page.... but then you will have to, in order to be consistent, divide all sorts of coins into the same "supertype".... "animals", "sports", "buildings" etc etc etc... my argument is also that the two series might have a completely different audience of collectors...

Yes, to be consistent, it would be a lot of work to sort all of the types that way, but you won't need to do that to coin specimens, sightings, and images, since I am now setting up the CC to do it automatically for you so you only need to put:

* 1 type for specimens
* 1 type and/or 1 specimen for sightings
* 1 type and/or 1 specimen and/or 1 sighting for images.

From there, the system will sort things automatically. So, it's not as much work as it sounds like it's going to be (I'm doing all the work to make things automatic).

For example, if someone wants to find out if non-lunar coins with horses on them behave the same or differently in the market during Chinese Year of the Horse than true "lunar" horses, making a type called "Coins with horses on them", and then adding all the types with horses on them, like for example:

CCT296 1984 22 g silver Chinese historical figures soldier with horse

to that horse category will allow them to get all the data about horse coins in one place where it can be analyzed, charted, and then compared with the true lunar horse category. We may find out that ALL horses react the same, or we may find out they're different. We may get a surprise and find out that the largest percentage price gains are in non-lunar horses!

By the way, that's why I'm buying non-lunar dragons right now, in advance of 2012 year of the dragon. I suspect the largest percentage gains will be in non-lunar dragons, since true lunar dragons start out so expensive. But, I don't have a chart to prove that yet, and the CC will give me the data and tools to do it. Amazing, I know!

But, the thought has crossed my mind that maybe there should be a "primary" supertype for each type. That way, the system could generate that main page hierarchy automatically. Instead of putting both world and Chinese historical figures under "CCT11: Historical figures", their "primary type" might be "CCT405: Modern Chinese coins 1979 to today". I could set it up so that the primary type is just the first type in the comma-separated type list, so it would be straightforward to do right now, just to add that feature.

I'm not sure what I would use that for, though, so I haven't done it.

Offline badon

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #150 on: December 07, 2011, 03:42:22 PM »
looking forward.... to make the system able to pick the right photo for the main photo for subtype, one could simply make boxes under uploading photos that checks: graded/slabbed or not, and enter grade, much like what one does when one creates specimens...

regardless: at type level, assuming there are subtypes, a single main picture makes no sense. Onw would like to have a gallery that shows one (preferably the best ones) subtype of each type for the type's main page....

but I am a computer imbesile :)... I can work with statistical software (SPSS, Eviews etc) but I have no chance in H*** to do the kind of "programming" you and SANDAC are up to.... I'll have a beer and wait and see what you come up with for the type page image idea....

main message: at type level, one picture of the obverse of each subtype should be shown in the gallery, it should be automatically generated, even if that means that in the event no main photo of the subtype yet exist, there would be a "blank" image-square there.... (to be filled in by motivated data gatherers! :) )

That's another great idea, and the system is totally capable of handling it. I picked you and SANDAC to invite for testing the Coin Compendium because your interests are the same, but you are very different people. You both have completely different experiences on the site - SANDAC is pushing it to do what it was designed to do (and giving me lots of data to run tests on), while you're finding many of the obstacles that need to be removed in order to make it easy and useful for everyone.

Offline DiggingNorway

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #151 on: December 07, 2011, 03:46:09 PM »
Badon, I urge you to reconsider... look: if I were to show up at an auction with a complete silver and gold set of the chinese HF series.... noone would ever think about raiseing the question: But where is the World HF?

My point is, the world HF series is a separate series and it deserves its own type. As an example, I collect the chinese HFS... I do not own a single World HFS... but, since the CC has drawn my attention to the lack of attention the series apparently suffer under... thats a different story, I might just start collecting it! But ask SANDAC... how many WHFS vs. CHFS does he have?`

These are different series, sharing the same "theme", yes. But the way the CC is buildt up as to date, "themes" do not represent a type of which different series' are subtypes of....

Offline DiggingNorway

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #152 on: December 07, 2011, 03:54:09 PM »
"Instead of putting both world and Chinese historical figures under "CCT11: Historical figures", their "primary type" might be "CCT405: Modern Chinese coins 1979 to today". "

excatly. I am not suggesting removing CCT405, I am simply suggesting that you treat CHF and WHF as equally different series as unicorns and pandas, even if the latter also are animals... the same way CHF and WHF are HF...

Offline badon

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #153 on: December 07, 2011, 03:57:01 PM »
My point is, the world HF series is a separate series and it deserves its own type.

I'm not sure I follow you. It already does have its own type:

CCT12: World historical figures

And Chinese historical figures are also separated into their own type:

CCT10: Chinese historical figures

These are different series, sharing the same "theme", yes. But the way the CC is buildt up as to date, "themes" do not represent a type of which different series' are subtypes of....

Actually, the CC is designed to be able to do that. We just haven't done much with it yet because we're still adding data. Coin types can be organized by:

* "theme"
* weight (1 oz, 1/2 oz, 1/4 oz, etc)
* metal (gold, silver, bimetallic, etc)
* country
* time period
* Coins that King Farouk has owned
* Coins that peak in value during slowdowns
* Coins that are unknown whether they're official or not
* Coins that were made outside their issuing country (1997 platinum pandas)
* ...anything else you can imagine

Of course, displaying all those types on the main page would be silly, since many of them may only be useful to just one person doing his own research that we may not even understand yet until he's done and writes a book about it to sell to us :)

Offline badon

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #154 on: December 07, 2011, 03:59:17 PM »
"Instead of putting both world and Chinese historical figures under "CCT11: Historical figures", their "primary type" might be "CCT405: Modern Chinese coins 1979 to today". "

excatly. I am not suggesting removing CCT405, I am simply suggesting that you treat CHF and WHF as equally different series as unicorns and pandas, even if the latter also are animals... the same way CHF and WHF are HF...

I just changed the display on the main page. Reload it, and tell me if that's what you wanted to see.

Offline badon

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #155 on: December 07, 2011, 04:01:09 PM »
I also added CCT405 as the first "primary" type on Chinese and World historical figures.

Offline DiggingNorway

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #156 on: December 07, 2011, 04:03:15 PM »
"Of course, displaying all those types on the main page would be silly, since many of them may only be useful to just one person doing his own research that we may not even understand yet until he's done and writes a book about it to sell to us :)"

good point.... the paradox of data-sharing... What I mean is simply that I see no point in merging the two series under the same tyep "historical figuere"... I am sure you know what I mean... and yes: I do understand that as long as a variable is consitently reported on type, subtype, specimen level anyone can search and gather data about all sorts of variables... I am discussing the seperation between series... WHF and CHF should not be merged under a headline HF under the main page, just as pandas and leopards should not be merged as "endangared animals" - the fact that people can search and sort data according a bunch of varibales do not change that inconsitency of categorization... but... lets wait for SANDAC or others to share their opinion... I am just letting you know my intuitive reaction :)

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #157 on: December 07, 2011, 04:07:53 PM »
I also added CCT405 as the first "primary" type on Chinese and World historical figures.

By the way, you are able to do things like that too. Just click "Edit with form" on CCT10 and CCT12 to see how I did it by entering "CCT405, CCT11" into the type field. I put CCT405 first, just in case we figure out a use for a "primary type". For now, the only difference the ordering will make is they will show up on the type page with the same ordering (under "Type", on the right).

Offline DiggingNorway

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #158 on: December 07, 2011, 04:09:12 PM »
I just changed the display on the main page. Reload it, and tell me if that's what you wanted to see.

I like it! notice not even a single subtype has been added to the WHF series.... allthough the CHF has gained alot of data... now maybe that will change since it is treated like a genuine series, as it should.

I really dont understand the meaning of the "see also" text, but atleast, once a use now chooses CHF or WHF he gets straight to the action... then we can start making the type-mainpages of the series provide more data :)

I'll be buying some WHF now just for the fun of it to the data!!

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #159 on: December 07, 2011, 04:11:08 PM »
I added the "see also" part with a link to CCT11 because I'm actually using CCT11 for my own research. I'm researching whether the Coin Compendium is working like it's supposed to :)

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #160 on: December 07, 2011, 04:16:49 PM »
okidokli.. I cnat find any WHFS... but I'll keep my eyes open... I wonder if they present themselves with as many different varities w.r.t strikes as the CHF....

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #161 on: December 07, 2011, 04:21:08 PM »
I'm going to eventually add custom ebay searches to some of the type pages, so it will be easy to find stuff that has just shown up on ebay. I'm going to make it super smooth and easy to find and add information to each page. That's on the back burner for now though, while I work on more important features that are required before I can move ahead with new ideas.

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #162 on: December 07, 2011, 04:27:06 PM »
so now we can expect a new kind of maiin page for the subtypes? with main photos from the specimens? - that was our original disussion... :)   I am very happy with the separation and I think it will prove to be right later on :)

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #163 on: December 07, 2011, 04:55:11 PM »
Yes, I'm working on making that possible right now. Once I've done the underlying work, then I can add that feature. It will make for a very nice main page.

Offline SANDAC

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #164 on: December 07, 2011, 08:43:03 PM »
Oh... and I got my little baby today  :001_wub:

I think I am converted.... coins in slabs (at least the NGS ones) are actually quite nice. They display the coin great, and just "feels right"...

I would not be surprised if SANDAC came up with 6-7 varities of this one too  :laugh:   (1988 Li Quing Zhao, PFUC 69)
Very nice!  I have not done much research on the 1988 Li Qing Zhao.  I am not aware of any variety, at least not yet.   ;)

Offline SANDAC

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #165 on: December 07, 2011, 09:00:45 PM »
But ask SANDAC... how many WHFS vs. CHFS does he have?`

You are right, I don't own a single WHFS.  It is a complete different topic, just like the famous rock&roll singers of 20th century would be.  However, I don't have problem with the way CC is organized in term of WHFS and CHFS.

Offline badon

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #166 on: December 08, 2011, 02:50:01 PM »
DiggingNorway: I've noticed your screenshots are cropped and do not show the full webpage.

This is very easy to use, and free, but also does not capture scrolling windows:

http://getgreenshot.org/

This is more complicated to use, and not free, but it's advertised as the "best" and I haven't found anything better. It captures scrolling windows:

http://www.faststone.org/FSCaptureDetail.htm

This screenshot for CCS2 was done with FastStone Capture:

http://www.CC/wiki/index.php/File:2011-11-02_165547.jpg

As you can see, it has complete data.

Offline DiggingNorway

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #167 on: December 08, 2011, 02:55:23 PM »
thx for the tip, i will look into it over x-mas :)

Offline badon

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #168 on: December 09, 2011, 03:38:38 PM »
SANDAC, I think I may have found a die crack on one of your coins. I annotated the location for you, take a look:

http://www.CC/wiki/index.php/File:1323315378-904.jpg

If it is a die crack, it'll be the first one I've ever seen on a modern Chinese coin. I think it's more likely that it's some sort of die scratch, but the photo isn't detailed enough to know for sure. Either way, we now have a way to identify the particular die used for that coin.

Offline SANDAC

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #169 on: December 09, 2011, 04:34:47 PM »
Interesting, I look at the coin in question.  Yes, the line is on the coin, and no, it is not a scratch, the line is raised, so it is possibly due to a scratch on the die (or die crack).  There are another shorter raised line next to it ase well.  The die crack I'm familiar with are much longer, but I suppose the die had to start cracking somewhere.  Good eyes!

Offline SANDAC

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #170 on: December 09, 2011, 04:37:29 PM »
Well, hey, with that previous posting (my 200th), I'm now a Full Member!  I wonder what it takes to be the Hero Member?

Offline badon

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #171 on: December 09, 2011, 04:43:07 PM »
Interesting, I look at the coin in question.  Yes, the line is on the coin, and no, it is not a scratch, the line is raised, so it is possibly due to a scratch on the die (or die crack).  There are another shorter raised line next to it ase well.  The die crack I'm familiar with are much longer, but I suppose the die had to start cracking somewhere.  Good eyes!

With more thought, I think it is probably a scratch. With your excellent photos, we can start keeping track of dies easily.

You know, I just realized that if people upload their coins to the CC, an expert can look at them and tell the owner if he has a valuable variety, just from when the expert is sorting things for his own research.

Offline SANDAC

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #172 on: December 09, 2011, 05:01:59 PM »
You know, I just realized that if people upload their coins to the CC, an expert can look at them and tell the owner if he has a valuable variety, just from when the expert is sorting things for his own research.
Yes.  Each person has a different area of interests.  For the HF, I only pay attention to the slab front side.  There could be variation on the backside, but I wouldn't know because I've barely paid any attention to the back side.   I uploaded them nevertheless for archival purpose.  They may be useful to others later, who know.

Offline badon

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #173 on: December 09, 2011, 05:02:43 PM »
SANDAC, your before and after images of NCS conserved specimens are very helpful, but I don't see that you have marked any of them as NCS conserved. Someone searching for the differences would be greatly helped in looking at your coins, but they wouldn't be able to find them unless they're marked as NCS conserved.

Offline SANDAC

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #174 on: December 09, 2011, 05:08:35 PM »
Well, I just find another variety of 1987 Li Chun:

http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=4585.msg25367#msg25367

In the previous discussion I talked about "puffy sleeve", "tight sleeve" and "vanishing base".  Here is a variety where sleeve is merged with the body.  That would be "no sleeve", I suppose.


Offline badon

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #175 on: December 09, 2011, 05:10:20 PM »
Great job! Does it have a CCT number yet?

Offline DiggingNorway

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #176 on: December 09, 2011, 05:14:44 PM »
phew..... what were those guys smoking?

Offline badon

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #177 on: December 09, 2011, 05:18:00 PM »
I see other interesting areas on this coin. Once it's on the CC, let me know, and I'll go annotate it for you.

Offline SANDAC

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #178 on: December 09, 2011, 05:27:16 PM »
It is CCT637.
Look at it again, I guess I would characterize it as puffy sleeve with frosting variation.  Just that the frosting variation (error?) is so significant that it alters the look of the coin.

Offline badon

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #179 on: December 09, 2011, 05:31:30 PM »
OK, you found one of the things I was going to annotate, but I annotated an area of the bridge that has been polished away.

Offline SANDAC

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #180 on: December 10, 2011, 12:44:13 PM »
The 1987 HF set that contains the "puffy sleeve" Li Chun with fully frosted background (I now call it "super puffy sleeve") turns out to be quite a bonanza of interesting coins.  Since the seller only sell set of coins, I believe this was the original 1987 set, a snapshot of mint state at the time.  These coins are not in great shapes, so I'm taking pictures of them with the cover off and put them in 2x2 flips to be send off to NCS.  It is a good opportunity to show these coins without the interference of the plastic covers.  I get to find out what NCS can do as well.

I've already presented the "super puffy sleeve" Li Chun.  http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=4585.msg26442#msg26442  Here is a different picture with the variation shown in red.

The Princess Chen Wen appears to be a new variety.  The man's right elbow is vanishing and there is a thin frosted area connecting the princess to the man.  Scandulous! if you ask me.   :ohmy:

Offline DiggingNorway

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #181 on: December 10, 2011, 12:48:27 PM »
The Chen Wen coin is very rarely seen for sale... I have yet to see a graded coin for sale... nice coin to have, congrats! looking forward to see your grading results as they come in... How many coins are you sending in from the CHF series? I will be sending in about 80... in february..

Offline SANDAC

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #182 on: December 10, 2011, 12:49:09 PM »
The Li Bai variety is known to me, but I never had the physical coin in my hand til now.  The waves are indeed vanishing as circled in two places.  Also the fold in the flowing robe is vanishing as well.  In some variety, the fold completely disappeared so there appears to be a big tear in the robe.

The hut behind Du Fu starts to vanish, but is no where as extensive as the one I shown here.  http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=4585.msg25369#msg25369  Like many varitions in the HF, they are gradual and progressive that are hard to pin down.

Offline SANDAC

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #183 on: December 10, 2011, 01:01:50 PM »
I only send modern coins (like CHS) to NCS.  I sent ten coins at a time.  That's because the form only has 10 lines for 10 items.  I'm getting ready to send in a set to NCS next week.  I'll probably send in another set before the Christmas.

Offline SANDAC

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #184 on: December 10, 2011, 01:17:56 PM »
Princess Chen Wen is rather unusual.  Other than the olympics figure skating pair, it is the only Chinese coinage that I know of showing man and woman shoulder-to-shoulder.  I said "scandulous" with tongue-in-cheek, but those sort of portrait is just not done in that time period.  Here is a question, How many coins can you think of that shows man and woman together as equal?

Offline badon

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #185 on: December 10, 2011, 05:54:59 PM »
I only send modern coins (like CHS) to NCS.  I sent ten coins at a time.  That's because the form only has 10 lines for 10 items.

You can send in more than 10 coins at a time just by crossing out the serial number on the top of the subsequent forms (don't cross out the first one), and then numbering your forms 1 of 2, 2 of 2, etc.

Also, if you're sending in more than one of the same coin, you can use just one line. Just put the quantity in the notes for that line. Of course, you won't be able to keep track of your NCS before and after photos as well that way, because you won't know what numbers the coins receive.

Offline DiggingNorway

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #186 on: December 10, 2011, 06:03:13 PM »
from europe it is more conomical to send in as many as possible, because I have to use DHL or some company like that... accoridng to NCS you can simply add a number on scheme, so coin nr 1 on sheet two will be 11, 2, will be 12 etc... then just number the sheets 1,2,3 etc, cross out the registry number on all other sheets than the first one.. so all the coins will be registered on the order form number from sheet 1...   

another thing: I was wondering why the main photo of CCT324 had disapaered; I try to reupload the slabbed photos, but then I get some kind of error... so now the main phots are in the image gallery only :(

Offline badon

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #187 on: December 10, 2011, 06:25:55 PM »
I was wondering why the main photo of CCT324 had disapaered; I try to reupload the slabbed photos, but then I get some kind of error... so now the main phots are in the image gallery only :(

It's because type pages show main obverse and reverse photos, while specimen pages show slab front and slab back photos. If you mark them as obverse and reverse, they will show up on the type page as main obverse and reverse. I can see why that would be confusing. I will think about possible ways of making that an easier to understand process.

Offline badon

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #188 on: December 10, 2011, 06:29:20 PM »
from europe it is more conomical to send in as many as possible, because I have to use DHL or some company like that

DHL packages I have received were delivered by the U.S. postal service (USPS). The European dealer sending me stuff thought paying a lot more money for DHL would be safer, but all DHL does is turn over the package to the regular postal service. So, save some money by sending with regular postal service, or use a company like FedEx or UPS that delivers packages themselves.

I'm not sure how European postal services work, but in the USA, I prefer express mail first, and registered mail second.

Offline badon

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #189 on: December 10, 2011, 06:31:47 PM »
It's because type pages show main obverse and reverse photos, while specimen pages show slab front and slab back photos. If you mark them as obverse and reverse, they will show up on the type page as main obverse and reverse. I can see why that would be confusing. I will think about possible ways of making that an easier to understand process.

I should add that type page photos should not normally be slab photos, since the slab is huge and the coin is small, which makes the coin hard to see. But, I think I could make the type system automatically show images from the lower types, if there aren't any that are marked yet. I might be able to make it do it randomly, so they are always changing. That would be interesting. What do you think?

Offline DiggingNorway

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #190 on: December 10, 2011, 06:43:21 PM »
but these two photos could be photos at main type level?

since they are already uploaded I am not allowed to upload them again as main photos, nor do I know how to "move them" from specimen level to type level...

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #191 on: December 10, 2011, 06:46:20 PM »
the randomnes would be interesting...and also a full slab photo might not be the best main type photo...due to the size of the slab... I dont know yo be honest

Offline badon

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #192 on: December 10, 2011, 06:59:13 PM »
I was wondering why the main photo of CCT324 had disapaered; I try to reupload the slabbed photos, but then I get some kind of error... so now the main phots are in the image gallery only :(

but these two photos could be photos at main type level?

since they are already uploaded I am not allowed to upload them again as main photos, nor do I know how to "move them" from specimen level to type level...

Can you give me a full screenshot instead of a partial one? There is something wrong with your screen and I am not sure what it is without the full screenshot. I think you are looking at a specimen page (I don't know which one without a full screenshot), not CCT324 as you said earlier. Instead of a screenshot, you can just give me the CC number of that page. The pages should look exactly the same for everyone (me and you), so hopefully screenshots won't be necessary for fixing problems.

Also, you should never need to reupload. If you do feel like you need to reupload, then something is probably wrong either in the site, or in the user-friendliness of the site.

Already, it seems to me that the form and image page need explanation about what the checkboxes will do, and what will happen when you add more types to the type list. Right now, I don't think there is ANY explanation, so I'm sure it's very unclear what to do. I will fix that problem, and I will make the image display automatic until someone uploads and marks a main image for the type.

This is all helpful information! User-friendliness is very important on such a complex site.

Offline badon

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #193 on: December 10, 2011, 07:00:55 PM »
By the way, I think I can make it so you won't have to upload and/or mark an image for the type. The randomness feature will work to put those images from the specimen on the type page, automatically. I like things that are automatic. That's ultimate user-friendliness :)

Offline r3globe

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #194 on: December 10, 2011, 07:09:23 PM »
The Chen Wen coin is very rarely seen for sale... I have yet to see a graded coin for sale... nice coin to have, congrats! looking forward to see your grading results as they come in... How many coins are you sending in from the CHF series? I will be sending in about 80... in february..

Krause put the mintage of Chen Wen (and the other 3 1987 HF) at 4000! Mr Ge puts it around 9000. Chen Wen's rather rare appearances point more to the 4000 figure.

Offline badon

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #195 on: December 10, 2011, 09:02:12 PM »
By the way, I think I can make it so you won't have to upload and/or mark an image for the type. The randomness feature will work to put those images from the specimen on the type page, automatically. I like things that are automatic. That's ultimate user-friendliness :)

This worked perfectly. Thanks for the brilliant feedback DiggingNorway. It works so well I was able to remove the "Add a main image" link from all pages that no longer need them. That's much more user friendly. Now, the only time anyone needs to mark an image as "main" is if there isn't already one available from lower levels. Since there's nothing lower than specimens or sometimes sightings, the images will automatically be displayed from wherever they were uploaded. It's a beautiful thing! Now, reloading the page shows you different coins each time.

I think it makes the pages much more interesting - except for the reverses, because they're all the same!

Offline SANDAC

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #196 on: December 10, 2011, 09:28:15 PM »
Could we make the random obverse/reverse smaller or otherwise designate them as temporary until a more permanent pictures are available?  I'm concerned that new user would see those spots as already taken and therefore uncomfortable with replacing them with more suitable pictures.  For an example, the best picture for CCT13 should be a picture of the 1984 4-coin set, but without a prior knowledge of how the random picture come about, a new user may be reluctant to replace the random pictures with a more suitable permanent one.

Offline SANDAC

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #197 on: December 10, 2011, 09:40:35 PM »
Krause put the mintage of Chen Wen (and the other 3 1987 HF) at 4000! Mr Ge puts it around 9000. Chen Wen's rather rare appearances point more to the 4000 figure.

The mintage of HF remains a mystery to me.  Some years, such as 1991/1992/1993 are difficult to find, yet their mintage is much bigger than 1989 which is plentiful on eBay.  Certain coin within a year is more readily spotted than other.  Princess Chen Wen is hard to find, but other 1987 coins are easily located.  My original rationalization was that mintage within a year is not identical, such that many of the coins are locked up in a set which circulates slower than the surplus loose coins.  Mr Ge's latest figures shot a big hole in that theory, because some of the most readily spotted coins actually have lower mintage than others in the set.  There are definitely disconnect between the published actual mintage and what are actually circulating in the market place.  Maybe selective hoarding is the answer (which is my current theory concerning the 1992 HF set), but why?

Offline badon

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #198 on: December 10, 2011, 09:48:49 PM »
Could we make the random obverse/reverse smaller or otherwise designate them as temporary until a more permanent pictures are available?  I'm concerned that new user would see those spots as already taken and therefore uncomfortable with replacing them with more suitable pictures.  For an example, the best picture for CCT13 should be a picture of the 1984 4-coin set, but without a prior knowledge of how the random picture come about, a new user may be reluctant to replace the random pictures with a more suitable permanent one.

I agree that for a 4 coin set type, the main images should be images of the 4 coin set. But, what about a very general type like CCT10: Chinese historical figures? For those pages, I think random is best usually. What do you think?

For the pages where a permanent picture is better, I think it should be someone already familiar with the type that selects the permanent picture. I'll make the form instructions easier to understand, and it should be OK from there.

The users can still easily upload an image for the page, but not making it too easy to replace the existing images means that the user will need to become more familiar with the CC before they start replacing images. By being more familiar, it means better images will be selected, and we won't spend all day every day changing things back to the way they were every time someone wants to experiment. Does that make sense? What do you think? Should be we try it this way for a while, and maybe add refinements as we go?

I like that there's 2 less links that the user needs to figure out what they do. And, the random images all come from the main images in subtypes, so they're probably always going to be good representatives of the supertype. As for making them smaller, I could do that, I don't think it's necessary since the label underneath says "Random Obverse" and "Random Reverse" whenever the images are random.

Offline badon

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #199 on: December 10, 2011, 09:52:52 PM »
The mintage of HF remains a mystery to me.  Some years, such as 1991/1992/1993 are difficult to find, yet their mintage is much bigger than 1989 which is plentiful on eBay.  Certain coin within a year is more readily spotted than other.  Princess Chen Wen is hard to find, but other 1987 coins are easily located.  My original rationalization was that mintage within a year is not identical, such that many of the coins are locked up in a set which circulates slower than the surplus loose coins.  Mr Ge's latest figures shot a big hole in that theory, because some of the most readily spotted coins actually have lower mintage than others in the set.  There are definitely disconnect between the published actual mintage and what are actually circulating in the market place.  Maybe selective hoarding is the answer (which is my current theory concerning the 1992 HF set), but why?

I agree, this is a huge mystery. I don't think Mr. Ge has "shot a hole" in anything yet, since we know nothing about his research. Hopefully our population statistics will make the AVAILABILITY of the coins more clear. Restrikes might explain some of it, but we'll have to do more research.

I think part of the confusion is because the historical figures series market is much more immature than other series, so the market is not a good representative of true rarity. I know a lot of the later dates came to the market in big hoards, while the earlier dates like 1989 are circulating furiously because they're supposed to be the key set and everyone is buying and selling them.

Offline SANDAC

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #200 on: December 10, 2011, 10:03:19 PM »
I agree that for a 4 coin set type, the main images should be images of the 4 coin set. But, what about a very general type like CCT10: Chinese historical figures? For those pages, I think random is best usually. What do you think?
Where there are many similar subtypes underneath a type (such as a variety of the type), randomly displaying the subtype is actually desirable.  It is a thing of beauty to behold.  Where subtypes are substantially different than the type, like CCT13 and all the different types below it.  Randomness seems less suitable.  It begs to be replaced with a permanent picture.

Offline badon

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #201 on: December 10, 2011, 10:25:11 PM »
Where there are many similar subtypes underneath a type (such as a variety of the type), randomly displaying the subtype is actually desirable.  It is a thing of beauty to behold.  Where subtypes are substantially different than the type, like CCT13 and all the different types below it.  Randomness seems less suitable.  It begs to be replaced with a permanent picture.

I'm glad you agree - it is very attractive to see :) You can get introduced to fascinating coins you have never seen before, just by doing normal things on the site. I'll give it some more thought to see if I can come up with a way to make the "begging" easier by showing that link that used to be there.

The problem is (and the CC's strength) is that types aren't different from each other. You'll notice that they all have the same basic data to start out with, and the only thing that makes them different is what people do to them. In order to add a link to certain "kinds" of types, I would have to figure out a way to make them distinct. That's one more thing to keep track of if we change something. Keep in mind that there's already over 600 types on the site! If you have to check a checkbox to mark a type as the kind that needs main images, why not just add the main images?

I can't do that automatically, because it will take a human to decide which of the 600 types should "beg" for main images. That's a fair amount of work that would be better spent either doing something else, or just adding the images whenever you're ready.

The more I think about it, the more I have a hard time figuring out how it can or should be done, without requiring lots of unproductive work - which also needs to be undone once the images are finally added (so the type stops "begging" for main images). That last part could be automated, but that type of data entry is the kind that I've spent a lot of effort trying to avoid in the database design.

Remember the switch in terminology for obverse and reverse images? That was a productive part of the database design, but still took a bit of effort to do. When there's millions of images, it could take an army of users months or years to change that many images. So, adding an unimportant, temporary bit of data to each page, possibly millions of them, just so it will beg is something I really want to avoid if possible.

However, there is another approach that could work. I can generate lists of types that don't have main images yet. That way, people can add images to the ones that need them, and ignore the ones in the list that don't need them. It would work just like the lists of images marked as obverse and reverse that was on the main page before. Once the job was done, I can easily just removed the code that produced those lists (we can always add it again later if someone uploads a lot of images incorrectly).

I've spent some time working on the software for generating a list of types without main images, but I had to refocus my attention on more important things. When I have some free time, I can keep working on it, if you think that is a good idea. What do you think?

By the way, my top priority is to help people use the sight, and learn what issues they're running into, and what features they think are important. After everyone goes to bed in the West, that's when I work on the new stuff :)

The last "new stuff" I did was making it possible to show data from all subtypes, sightings, images, etc. It took some reworking of the database design, but I was able to automate most if it. The results are truly incredible. It is now easily possible to surf on top of enormous quantities of data easily, in a pleasant and informative way, without sinking and drowning in the data.

Hmm, that was a nice analogy that's actually pretty close to how the works. I should put that in the help page.


Offline badon

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #202 on: December 11, 2011, 12:56:35 AM »
After some thought and testing, it appears we need the "beg" links on types where no main images exist, and where there are no main images in subtypes that can be used for randomization. Everything seems to be working now, but I'm going to clean up the code a bit to make it easier to modify in the future. This simple feature was a bit more complex than I thought it would be :)

Offline SANDAC

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #203 on: December 11, 2011, 02:00:52 AM »
After some poker around, I'm becoming a even bigger fan of the random-images-for-the-main-image approach.  As long as one populate the image at the end of the chain, it will automatically fill in all the intermediate hierarchy with relevant images.  The range of the images automatically increases as the hierachy is filled to reflect the larger population.  Genius.  It should be a recommended style to not populate the intermediate main images, just let the random image generator does its job.  At or near the highest level of hierarchy, one may want to showcase a selected group of notable coins within that hierarchy.  Is there a way to mark certain coins for displaying by the random generator?

Offline SANDAC

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #204 on: December 11, 2011, 02:10:04 AM »
You can send in more than 10 coins at a time just by crossing out the serial number on the top of the subsequent forms (don't cross out the first one), and then numbering your forms 1 of 2, 2 of 2, etc.

Also, if you're sending in more than one of the same coin, you can use just one line. Just put the quantity in the notes for that line. Of course, you won't be able to keep track of your NCS before and after photos as well that way, because you won't know what numbers the coins receive.
I bet not many people know that trick.  If you look up NGC certification number in the 3xxxxxx series (the number generally assigned to NCS conserved coins), it generally ends at -010.  So most people just fill out one page of the form and sent in 10 coins.

Offline badon

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #205 on: December 11, 2011, 02:17:22 AM »
After some poker around, I'm becoming a even bigger fan of the random-images-for-the-main-image approach.  As long as one populate the image at the end of the chain, it will automatically fill in all the intermediate hierarchy with relevant images.  The range of the images automatically increases as the hierachy is filled to reflect the larger population.  Genius.  It should be a recommended style to not populate the intermediate main images, just let the random image generator does its job.  At or near the highest level of hierarchy, one may want to showcase a selected group of notable coins within that hierarchy.  Is there a way to mark certain coins for displaying by the random generator?

Right now, the random images are taken from the lower level images that are marked as main obverse and main reverse. It does not use any of the slab images, since the coins are too hard to see in those photos when they're so small. So, all you have to do is set a main obverse and main reverse image on the lower level types, and everything else is automatic!

Eventually, there may be millions of images in the Coin Compendium. Even with just a few thousand, it is becoming important to only select the best images. That's why only one main image is allowed for obverse and reverse of each type. If you mark two images as main obverse or main reverse, both images will show up, and it will look strange.

I'm sure eventually I will need to make a tool that finds all types with more than one main obverse or main reverse image, so we can easily find them and remove one of them. There have been a lot of concerns about validity of the data, but despite this database's potentially huge size, it remains pretty easy to find the problems so someone can fix them. Well, it's easy to find pretty much anything and everything :)

I'm glad you liked the random image trick. Thanks to DiggingNorway for discussing that with us, and bringing it to our attention. It will be exciting to see your coins become "famous" when they show up at the top level for everyone to see :)

Speaking of that, eventually the front page will be much nicer, and all those lists will be moved to some sort of "tools" page. When it is nicer, we can have "coin of the day" or something like that, to promote coins that have a lot of interesting information recorded about them.

Offline badon

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #206 on: December 11, 2011, 02:19:29 AM »
I bet not many people know that trick.  If you look up NGC certification number in the 3xxxxxx series (the number generally assigned to NCS conserved coins), it generally ends at -010.  So most people just fill out one page of the form and sent in 10 coins.

Haha, if NGC got smart, they would use website forms with 1000 lines, so they will make more money :) But, they like antique carbon paper from the 1820's:

http://www.nytimes.com/1998/11/12/technology/carbon-paper-still-messy-still-in-use.html?pagewanted=all&src=pm

Offline badon

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #207 on: December 11, 2011, 02:43:37 AM »
I just discovered that sighting data is not being fed into specimen data, so when I fix that, we'll have some more images. The sighting images are often pretty ugly though, since they come from screenshots or catalog scans. I may have to filter out screenshots from the random image display, except when no other images are available.

Offline SANDAC

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #208 on: December 11, 2011, 02:29:36 PM »
I was tracking down a lead on NGC certification site and ran across this interesting one.

http://www.ngccoin.com/certlookup/CertResults.aspx?CertNumber=3306026-019

There are two things interesting about it.  1.  This is another example of the "super puffy sleeve" Li Chun.  2.  NGC slabbed all 1987 4-coin set in a "super slab", so if anyone has such super slab, please take a picture of it and put it as the main picture of CCT16.

Offline badon

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #209 on: December 11, 2011, 03:10:59 PM »
Interesting research. That "super slab" has all 4 of these certification numbers:

3306026-017
3306026-018
3306026-019
3306026-020

So, each coin would be entered into the CC as individual specimens, with a slab photo that shows all 4 coins. Once entered, you can click on the certification number navigator (under the CC number) to find more.

Offline SANDAC

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #210 on: December 11, 2011, 03:39:34 PM »
Another thing you may find interesting:
I was pretty sure that the set I purchased was the original 1987 set.  Judging by the way these coins in NGC 3306026-3306028 are submitted, they are likely coins from the original set 1984 - 1990.  So they are a snapshot of the mint state.  So it is reasonable to compare the four coins from my 1987 set to the four coins in NGC3306026-017.  The results are interesting:  Princess Chen Wen showed the same frosted area and vanishing elbow; LiChun has the same super puffy sleeve, Both Du Fu's hut are just start to vanish; Li Bai's water feature vanished the same on the left side, but the right side (near his belly) is different.  For clarity sake, I'm going to take a snippet of the 3306026 photo and compare to a cropped photo of LiBai I presented previously.  I think this is a fair use of NGC's photo, but if you don't think so, please feel free to delete it.

Offline DiggingNorway

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #211 on: December 11, 2011, 03:56:00 PM »
But in this sealed version it seems to be no vanishing waves/water features, and the cape is frosted, with no mirroring....

Offline badon

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #212 on: December 11, 2011, 04:05:24 PM »
For clarity sake, I'm going to take a snippet of the 3306026 photo and compare to a cropped photo of LiBai I presented previously.  I think this is a fair use of NGC's photo, but if you don't think so, please feel free to delete it.

I agree, it's fair use.

This is brilliant. What CC numbers are these images under? If we can come up with some solid evidence for restriking, it will be very significant for modern Chinese numismatics. I'll have to take a closer look at these when I can focus on them, to see what evidence I can find in your photos.

Offline badon

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #213 on: December 11, 2011, 06:35:47 PM »
I moved CC98 from CCT16 to CCT303, since the specimen is a single coin.

Offline badon

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #214 on: December 13, 2011, 04:19:19 AM »
SANDAC, the restrikes list that I put onto CCT405 uses an automatic search to produce the type names for the links to the 1984 historical figures type pages. When it comes time to writing articles about them, those automatic searches are very handy because they produce a link that changes automatically if the type name changes. I coded up something to make it easy to make those links. Here's what they look like, all you have to change is the CCT, CC, or CCS number:

{{CC|CCT405}}

Offline SANDAC

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #215 on: December 16, 2011, 12:16:29 PM »
Here are two good examples of frosting varieties of the 1986 Cai Lun.  The first one
shows a "normal" version of Cai Lun that is readily available.  The 2nd one is harder
to find.  It shows a full separation between Cai Lun and workers to his right;  The
worker at the upper left shows a mirrored field between his belly and the working
surface;  The mirrored background is intact in the steam plum on the right.  I
believe the 2nd coin, even though it is hard to find, shows the the original intent of the
design.  It is either an early strike of 1986 mintage or a restrike of 2003-2005.

Offline DiggingNorway

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #216 on: December 16, 2011, 12:21:44 PM »
I dont know why, but I also support the idea that the original issues has more mirrored surfaces and more "seperated" items; people, boats, trees, huts, what ever the full design consist of. I think the restrikes were made with less care for details and that they didnt polish the coins enought to seperate the detils and also to create higher reliefs... I cannot argue for this or justify it, its just a feeling I have.

There seems to be a relationship between mirrored areas, relief hight and details. just my thoughts... There has been some hefty auctions in the CHF series lately for raw coins btw...

Offline badon

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #217 on: December 16, 2011, 04:27:10 PM »
I only wish I had more of them, as usual.

Offline SANDAC

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #218 on: December 16, 2011, 04:39:05 PM »
My theory is that HF series suffered from quality control issues.  The first-strike coins had excellent relief and distinct features, but as the die worn down or mistreated, the relief was reduced, features vanished, and excessive frosting developed in the mirrored field.  These are the reasons for the many varieties observed.  I don't have a theory about restrike vs original.  The appearance of the restruck even years, 1984/86/88, doesn't seem to be all that different than the non-restruck odd years, 1985/87/89.  In fact, 1984 appears to be quite uniform, even though there are many restrikes from that year.  Furthurmore, many of my HF coins acuqired before yr2000 have the same kind of  vanishing and frosting variation

Offline SANDAC

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #219 on: December 16, 2011, 04:42:13 PM »
Do you have a few example of hefty auctions in CHF?  I thought the price were stable in the $60-$80 range.  The 1992 HF is expensive, but that's normal, too.

Offline chinesecoinworks

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #220 on: December 16, 2011, 06:34:42 PM »
My theory is that HF series suffered from quality control issues.  The first-strike coins had excellent relief and distinct features, but as the die worn down or mistreated, the relief was reduced, features vanished, and excessive frosting developed in the mirrored field.  These are the reasons for the many varieties observed.  I don't have a theory about restrike vs original.  The appearance of the restruck even years, 1984/86/88, doesn't seem to be all that different than the non-restruck odd years, 1985/87/89.  In fact, 1984 appears to be quite uniform, even though there are many restrikes from that year.  Furthurmore, many of my HF coins acuqired before yr2000 have the same kind of  vanishing and frosting variation

Die wear is my belief rather than different die. Or maybe someone experienced in coin minting can tell us how many time the die can be used to strike before it totally wears off. If you can't tell the difference between initial strike & restrike, chances are, they are from the same die.

Offline badon

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #221 on: December 16, 2011, 06:39:03 PM »
There are a few clues that lead me to believe that they COULD be the same die that was worn, removed from service, repolished and refrosted, and then put back into service. There is nothing conclusive or convincing though. I would have to study many coins in great detail to find evidence that they're the same refurbished die.

Offline SANDAC

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #222 on: December 23, 2011, 01:04:48 AM »
Following the leads from the latest LBC article,  Modern Chinese coin investments LIST #112 - Pricepedia, historical figures, I find this eBay listing pretty interesting:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1985-Historical-Figures-Set-2nd-Edition-4-coins-Mintage-8-175-/320815443440?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4ab2172df0

The 1985 Chen Sheng, NGC 3559211-001, is definitely the "short cape" variety.  The 1985 SunWu, NGC 3559211-003, is interesting.  The flag appears to be "torn" in two places.  I wonder if this is the beginning of the "short flag" variety.  Here is a snippet of the torn flag from NGC's photo archive.

Offline badon

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #223 on: December 24, 2011, 04:22:24 PM »
There was a very serious bug in the Coin Compendium that took the site down. I have finally figured out what caused the bug, and I'll finish isolating it next week. Then, I'll get to working on fixing it. Once that very serious bug is fixed, the Coin Compendium will be back up for further testing and entering in these new varieties.

I accidentally triggered the bug while making it easier to enter in sightings and specimens. I was nearly done with part of it when the bug took down the site - it seems even the easy stuff has a way of becoming hard, haha. While I've been working on solving the bug, I have been upgrading the software too, so we may have some new features coming soon also, once the bug issue is resolved.

Offline chinesecoinworks

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #224 on: December 24, 2011, 05:27:42 PM »
Following the leads from the latest LBC article,  Modern Chinese coin investments LIST #112 - Pricepedia, historical figures, I find this eBay listing pretty interesting:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1985-Historical-Figures-Set-2nd-Edition-4-coins-Mintage-8-175-/320815443440?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4ab2172df0



The description makes the coins sound as if they were re-strikes. Maximum grade of 68 for the set makes my 1986 set of 69 look inexpensive ...

Offline DiggingNorway

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #225 on: December 24, 2011, 05:32:01 PM »
merry x-mas everyone!! thanks to Badon for ivesting so much time in CCF/CC... etc etct etc t... and SNDAC for providing great and his(?) sharp eye for detecting varities! :biggrin:

dont get turned off by a deflationary 2012... many collective items might hit the market at once (incl MCC) pushing prices down, but in the long term I feel confident that these coins will appriciate A LOT in the coming decades...

merry x.-mas :thumbup:

Offline badon

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #226 on: December 26, 2011, 04:56:43 PM »
There was a very serious bug in the Coin Compendium that took the site down. I have finally figured out what caused the bug, and I'll finish isolating it next week. Then, I'll get to working on fixing it. Once that very serious bug is fixed, the Coin Compendium will be back up for further testing and entering in these new varieties.

I accidentally triggered the bug while making it easier to enter in sightings and specimens. I was nearly done with part of it when the bug took down the site - it seems even the easy stuff has a way of becoming hard, haha. While I've been working on solving the bug, I have been upgrading the software too, so we may have some new features coming soon also, once the bug issue is resolved.

The bug seems to have been fixed for now. You can go back to the CC and do your thing :) I'm back to work on making the system easier to use. You'll notice on the main page there are now forms for finding specimens. I'll be setting that up to allow you to quickly enter in new specimens and sightings very easily.

I have also done some upgrades, so let me know if you notice anything strange. It SHOULD all be working well now, but there might be a few minor quirks that I haven't noticed yet.

Offline SANDAC

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #227 on: December 27, 2011, 12:34:13 PM »
I'm on the hunt for a perfect 1992 Cai Wenji.  This is the best I can find so far.  At least the characters are all legible, but I have a question about the character "not" 不 :  I only have a middle-school education in Chinese writing, and that's a long, long time ago.  I do not know all the stylized ways of writing this character, but it sure looks wrong to me.  So for people proficient with Chinese writing, is there any way 不 can be written this way?  It is possible this character was minted this way even with the first strike, so every Cai Wenji coin was misspelled.  That'll be something.

Offline badon

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #228 on: December 27, 2011, 02:17:31 PM »
What's the CCT number for this one?

Offline chinesecoinworks

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #229 on: December 27, 2011, 05:52:25 PM »
I would say it is the inability to give it a proper strike than a mis-spell. The Chinese character consists of 4 distinct strokes. First two is form by 'T' followed by 2 distinct left and right strokes. If even the first strike has it this way, I would blame the die. Very bad die making given that it is more than 10 years of Modern Chinese coin minting.

Offline SANDAC

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #230 on: December 27, 2011, 07:00:57 PM »
What's the CCT number for this one?

This coin along with 9 others are in NCS getting conserved and then graded.  I'll post them when I got them back.  I want to document the conservation process so I have both the before and after pictures and I'll post them all.

Offline badon

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #231 on: December 27, 2011, 09:03:32 PM »
That will be very nice to see.

Offline SANDAC

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #232 on: December 29, 2011, 09:35:53 PM »
I dont know why, but I also support the idea that the original issues has more mirrored surfaces and more "seperated" items; people, boats, trees, huts, what ever the full design consist of. I think the restrikes were made with less care for details and that they didnt polish the coins enought to seperate the detils and also to create higher reliefs... I cannot argue for this or justify it, its just a feeling I have.

If the orignal version has more mirrored fields, then this 1986 Cai Lun I just received is perhaps the "most" original one.  It has more mirrored fields than any other I have.  I circled the additional mirrored fields in red above and beyond the one I claimed to be first strike here:

http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=4585.msg26731#msg26731

Interestingly, a different brochure arrived with this coin.  Normally it is in German, but this one is in Norwegian.  Is that so, DiggingNorway?  That does not necessarily mean this is a restrike, because the other two coins from the same seller also have the same type of brochure, but they are 1992 HF coins which have no record of restrike.

Offline badon

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #233 on: December 29, 2011, 10:35:41 PM »
That does look like Swedish or Norwegian to me. That would be interesting to upload as "Documentation. I don't think it is official, but should it be also marked as "Certificate"?

Offline SANDAC

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #234 on: January 06, 2012, 03:49:23 PM »
This afternoon's post brought me two coins of interests to this thread.

The first one confirmed the "8-spears Kublai Khan" that was originally posted by r3globe at here:

http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=4585.msg26191#msg26191 

Exactly as r3globe has stated, the 2 spears are missing in-between the 2 rightmost background soldiers.  In the attached photo you may think the third spear above the pointed helmet of the leftmost solder is also missing, but it is there, just barely.  I noticed r3globe's 3rd spear is almost gone as well.

The 2nd coin is very much like the "super puffy sleeve" 1987 Li Chun I mentioned here

http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=4585.msg26442#msg26442 

The gap between Li Chun's right arm and his body is frosted in, and the base exhibit the same fading characteristics as before.

For these two coins, my conclusion are the variations are due to actual die state rather than minting mistakes.

Offline badon

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #235 on: January 06, 2012, 04:00:24 PM »
I am convinced they are die mistakes instead of die states. The dies are hardly worn at all. For whole design features like the spears to bee worn away, all the frosting would have to be worn away first. Since the frosting is still there, and quite nice, I believe the error was in excessive polishing of the fields.

Offline SANDAC

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #236 on: January 06, 2012, 08:39:14 PM »
I agree with you, I just need to learn the proper terminology to describe the condition of a die.

Offline badon

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #237 on: January 06, 2012, 08:46:26 PM »
I suspected you were trying to say the same thing as me, I just wasn't sure. We can document all this terminology at the CC. By the way, I'm making a lot of progress on the bugs that prevent viewing of pages. I'll post a bit more over at the testing discussion:

http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=4588.0

Offline chinesecoinworks

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #238 on: January 07, 2012, 09:32:00 AM »
I am convinced they are die mistakes instead of die states. The dies are hardly worn at all. For whole design features like the spears to bee worn away, all the frosting would have to be worn away first. Since the frosting is still there, and quite nice, I believe the error was in excessive polishing of the fields.

So excessive polishing is a permanent damage to the die?

Offline badon

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #239 on: January 07, 2012, 05:49:31 PM »
Yes it is. Once it is done, every coin made with the die will show the excessive polishing, and it cannot be undone.

Offline chinesecoinworks

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #240 on: January 07, 2012, 06:37:00 PM »
Yes it is. Once it is done, every coin made with the die will show the excessive polishing, and it cannot be undone.

Sigh ... each time the die gets excessive polishing, a certain feature could disappear or get distorted ..  :(
How often, as a usual practice, do dies get polished?

My Huang Dao Po has broken thread.  :(

Offline badon

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #241 on: January 07, 2012, 07:29:52 PM »
I don't know for certain, but for proof coins I believe it is usually only once, right before the die gets used. After that, the die is discarded. Since no late die states have been discovered, I'm confident the dies were retired after they had been used. It's possible some of them were repolished and refrosted again, and then put back into service, but I have not seen any convincing evidence of that for historical figures coins yet.

If it was a die for circulating coinage, it would have probably been kept in service longer, with as much polishing as needed.

Offline SANDAC

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #242 on: January 07, 2012, 09:02:32 PM »

My Huang Dao Po has broken thread.  :(

I have one with almost broken thread.  Is this similar to yours?

Offline chinesecoinworks

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #243 on: January 08, 2012, 04:27:43 AM »
Looks like mine in worse shape with rubs on the hand ...  :(



Offline DiggingNorway

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #244 on: January 10, 2012, 06:08:40 PM »
That does look like Swedish or Norwegian to me. That would be interesting to upload as "Documentation. I don't think it is official, but should it be also marked as "Certificate"?

its not official, its Norwegian and made by the company that sold and markedet the coins. At the time they were sold, raw, for aprox 90 USD... this was in the late 90s I guess... I am not sure about the date though since I never bought them at the time. But the certificate is rubbish, it is pure marketing.

Offline badon

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #245 on: January 10, 2012, 11:00:46 PM »
It's still a historical record, so it's not rubbish anymore, now that we have a way to collect all that history in one place so we can make sense of it.

Offline chinesecoinworks

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #246 on: January 19, 2012, 05:42:14 PM »
was there a fifth silver coin in 1992? for those who has the new book, check out page 61,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koxinga

it sure looks like it!!

The historical figueres according to this source: http://www.modernchinacoins.com/modernchinacoins/CHINESE_HISTORICAL_FIGURES.html

does NOT mention him... but in the book he is presented together with the 4 others.... and he apparantly was a histroical figuere...



Reviving an old post ...

It seems like koxinga is a separate coin from the set of 4 in box? The coin specs is different. 20g instead of 22g, 33mm & 99.9 fineness. Mine comes with its own COA but not doubled and no box. Wonder what the OMP is like for this odd-ball ... Also, I've seen some 1985 coins sold with individual COAs. What type of issue is this? Or is it 3rd party COA?

Offline SANDAC

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #247 on: January 19, 2012, 11:46:22 PM »
The 1992 Koxinga is indeed an oddball.  I only recently added it to my Historical Figures collection, primarily because it is so odd, and bounds to have an interesting story behind it.  In fact, the entire 1992 HF series is weird, both in term of chronological sequence (should be figures from the 18th and 19th centuy), and the figures of minor historical consequence.  In fact, Hua Mulan was really more a mythical figure than a historical figure.  There are a couple more interesting things about them:  the 1992 historical figures are particularly hard to find, and quite expensive when they are available, even though Mr. Ge listed them with actual mintage of 10,000+;   Due to the scarcity, I don't have a large sample to study for variety, but my preliminary conclusion is that the 1992 HF appeared to be poorly made resulting in an abundance of variation.  1989 may be the key date, but I believe 1992 has the most interesting story to tell.

Offline badon

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #248 on: February 06, 2012, 07:49:23 PM »
Hey everyone, the Coin Compendium is functioning again after a severe bug shut it down for a while. SANDAC's testing was very helpful in isolating the bug and fixing the error.

Offline SANDAC

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #249 on: February 09, 2012, 04:23:08 PM »
The 1988 historical figure YueFei has a fairly common and minor frosting variant where the mirrored field between his left leg and the flag is frosted over.  See red circle in picture 1 as compared to the green circle in picture 2.  However, I just come across an unusual frosting variant that is quite significant.  See the red circle in picture 2.  This is the only example of such frosting variation that I'm aware of.

Offline badon

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #250 on: February 09, 2012, 06:47:49 PM »
I'm going to open up the Coin Compendium for public viewing soon, so you'll be able to link to your annotations on the CC, where it'll be much easier. I need to polish a few things first, and be a bit cautious before I open it up. I probably won't announce it when it opens, so the only people looking at it will be the ones that follow links from discussions about the information in it.

Offline SANDAC

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #251 on: February 10, 2012, 12:32:24 AM »
My NGC data base is large enough that I believe I can calculate the rarity of the historical figure varieties with some confidence.  I need to do these calculation before the data base itself is "corrupted" by the very publication of such data.  This is because people tend to submit the rare variety for grading first thus skewed the distribution.

Here is the distribution of the 1989 Kublai Khan small/large army:  Of the 61 Kublai Khan in my database, 4 are small army and 57 are big army.  So small army is roughly 1 in 15.  If that ratio held for the entire population of Kublai Khan, then the population of the small army is about 380. 

Offline badon

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #252 on: February 10, 2012, 12:49:51 AM »
I don't think you should worry about the data bias very much for low mintage coins. Firstly, it's going to happen eventually, no matter what. Secondly, it won't last long for low mintage coins because nearly all of them will get submitted. I just looked at the 2010 1 oz silver panda information, and there are nearly 30,000 that have been submitted! The funny thing is those can sometimes sell for similar prices to the historical figures, haha!

Offline SANDAC

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #253 on: February 10, 2012, 01:41:07 AM »
I collect HF because these are famous figures well known to even Chinese elementary school students.  They are the George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, Ulysses Grant, Andrew Jackson and Abe Lincoln of Chinese history, and rightfully belong in the Chinese coinage.   The mintage is miniscule for such important figures, and they were originally distributed by MDM of Germany.  Germany!!??  The European probably is familiar with Washington, heard of Jefferson and Lincoln, but they'd never heard of LiBai, DuFu, SunWu, or YueFei.  Germany! what were they thinking?  No wonder HF is sold at the price of the mass-produced later year Panda. 

The collectors in China do know the significance of these coins.  Price is still low because they can get it cheap from the indifferent European, but when that cheap supply ran out, watch out!

Offline badon

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #254 on: February 10, 2012, 01:52:09 AM »
Hah, you're making me want to buy more of them :)

Offline badon

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #255 on: February 11, 2012, 01:42:44 AM »
SANDAC, I'm getting ready to start testing entering a lot of sighting data. The CCT10: Chinese historical figures is the most well-developed part of the Coin Compendium so far. If you check over that to make sure all the types are there, and add missing pictures, it will be easier for others to match up ebay listings with the correct type, and enter sightings for them.

I have already entered in ebay data for all the ended listings up to 01 January 2012. CCS25 was an interesting test because it was a whole set of certified coins. That means I had to:

#1 add a sighting for the CCT17 set
#2 enter in each specimen
#3 add each specimen's CC number to the CCS25 sighting

Then, all the relevant data about it had been entered. I may have to come up with an easier way to do lots of more than just 1 coin, if possible.

Offline badon

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #256 on: February 11, 2012, 02:57:18 AM »
SANDAC, I saw that you had trouble uploading the reverse image for 1992 Hua Mulan, CCT748. I fixed it for you, but can you tell me how it happened so I can prevent that trouble in the future?

Offline SANDAC

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #257 on: February 11, 2012, 10:40:06 AM »
Yes, I did have problem uploading, but I was tired and powered down my computer and go to bed and try again tomorrow.  It gave me error message that I didn't capture and wouldn't display the picture.

I tried again this morning and was successful.  A new issue: the pictures I uploaded today is rotated 90 degree.  See CCT749

Another minor problem:  when uploading the main reverse image, the "Upload Image" page has the "obverse" box checked.  I always has to remember to uncheck that and check the "reverse" box.  I was lazy, it takes me more effort to explain, but since there will be more users, I better let you know now.

Offline SANDAC

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #258 on: February 11, 2012, 11:01:55 AM »
I don't have all the historical figures, yet.  I'll post what I do have.  I'll keep an eye on the Chinese historical figures area.  I'm also interested in the Invention and Discovery series, so I'll pay attention there as well.

Offline badon

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #259 on: February 12, 2012, 07:22:09 PM »
SANDAC, I started putting lists of coins to enter into the Coin Compendium, using the link made by the Specimen find form. You can see an example here:

http://www.CC/w/index.php/CCT2#Specimens_to_enter_into_the_Coin_Compendium

If you did that for some of the types you have, with all the information entered that is identical for them, it will make it easy for someone else to jump in and help you enter coins.

Offline badon

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #260 on: February 14, 2012, 10:19:54 PM »
I just noticed that there are 2 types of MDM COA for the 1992 Hua Mulan:

http://www.CC/w/index.php/CCT331

Maybe they contain different information? We need Germans to translate it to English.

Offline badon

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #261 on: February 14, 2012, 10:31:31 PM »

Offline SANDAC

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #262 on: February 14, 2012, 10:52:36 PM »
SANDAC, which variety is this?:

http://www.CC/w/index.php/File:Image_1322802579.jpg

That is the original variety, what it supposed to look like.  call it First Strike?

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #263 on: February 14, 2012, 10:56:16 PM »
I just noticed that there are 2 types of MDM COA for the 1992 Hua Mulan:

http://www.CC/w/index.php/CCT331

Maybe they contain different information? We need Germans to translate it to English.

The one sheet (black and white) is in German and published by the original distributor, MDM.  The two-sheet document (color) is written in Norway.  It is probably a third-party add-on.  DiggingNorway doesn't think much of it, but I uploaded it just for documentation purpose.

Offline badon

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #264 on: February 14, 2012, 11:03:54 PM »
That is the original variety, what it supposed to look like.  call it First Strike?

It should have its own type entry, since the main type for all subtypes should never represent a specific coin type AND subtypes - it can only represent one or the other, but not both. That will make large scale data-mining possible.

Since we don't know for sure the order of striking, I would temporarily call it the "perfect" one, or something like that. What do you think?

The one sheet (black and white) is in German and published by the original distributor, MDM.  The two-sheet document (color) is written in Norway.  It is probably a third-party add-on.  DiggingNorway doesn't think much of it, but I uploaded it just for documentation purpose.

Oh, OK. I didn't look closely enough at it. Once we get translations of those documents, we can compare them.

Offline SANDAC

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #265 on: February 14, 2012, 11:21:41 PM »
It should have its own type entry, since the main type for all subtypes should never represent a specific coin type AND subtypes - it can only represent one or the other, but not both. That will make large scale data-mining possible.

Since we don't know for sure the order of striking, I would temporarily call it the "perfect" one, or something like that. What do you think?

Oh, OK. I didn't look closely enough at it. Once we get translations of those documents, we can compare them.

I'm not too good with word, so something conveys the notion of "original intent", "first batch" would be good. 

My thinking about the HF series is evolving:  Because the die is so poorly treated, the HF has an abudance of varieties.  So varieties are no big deal.  It is the first batch of coins that are most desirable.

Offline badon

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #266 on: February 14, 2012, 11:39:00 PM »
"original intent" sounds good. We can always change it later if we decide to.

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #267 on: February 14, 2012, 11:44:34 PM »
BTW, I'm not saying that I'm no longer looking for varieties.  On the contrary, at any given moment I'm pursuing half dozen or so potential varieties.  I'm a variety-geek, it is variety first, condition second with me.  But most people are not like that.  All these varieties are confusing and turn them off.  So for most folks, I would say collect the first batch which represent the original intent before the clumsy mint employee botched it up.  Some original intent like 1986 Cai Lun is actually quite rare.  And I have yet to find an original-intent Cai Wenji.

Offline badon

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #268 on: February 14, 2012, 11:49:32 PM »
I agree. But, in that case, they can just look at the random photos. You never know, they may become variety geeks too.

Offline badon

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #269 on: February 15, 2012, 05:00:20 PM »
SANDAC, it is no longer necessary to enter in "Proof, Ultra Cameo" for the designations of specimens. You can do just "Ultra Cameo" now. It turns out my data design does not need that information for specimens, since it can be obtained automatically from information in the type system. I have fixed all 1500+ specimens that have already been entered, and I will change the instructions on the specimen form too.

This should make it much easier to enter coins in faster, since now you can just select things from the dropdown list most of the time.

Offline SANDAC

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #270 on: February 15, 2012, 05:37:09 PM »
OK, that makes sense.  Unfortunately for the historical figure series, there are a few Cameo designation, even though the majority are Ultra Cameo.  So I still have to go through each coin to make sure the proper designation is entered.

Offline badon

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #271 on: February 15, 2012, 05:43:07 PM »
"Cameo" should be in the dropdown too, so you won't have to type it in. If not, it will be after the first time you type it in.

Offline Gilmore

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #272 on: February 16, 2012, 09:09:01 PM »
I look at r3globe's picture again and I think it is the "missing link" from the full 10-spear KK to the 7-spear KK I talked about a few days ago here: http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=4585.msg25710#msg25710

Here are a sequence of photos to illustrate the progression of the vanishing spears:
1.  This is a normal big army KK.
2.  The 3 rightmost spears are fading
3.  They are fading even more, the is the zoom of NGC 4049865-004
4.  r3globe's 8-spear zoom in
5.  7-spear zoom of http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=4585.msg25710#msg25710


I just saw this coin on Zhaoonline and it appears to be another variety. Since the photo is not so clear I went looking for this coin in NGC's verification page. Although also not so clear, both photos show that there are spears missing above the soldier on the left, different from all 5 varieties mentioned above. Here are both photos from Zhaoonline and NGC.

 



« Last Edit: February 16, 2012, 09:19:20 PM by Gilmore »

Offline SANDAC

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #273 on: February 16, 2012, 09:51:21 PM »
The 3 spears missing on the left is the signature of the "small army" variety.  The other signature is the pyramid on the horizon closest to Kublai Khan is deformed or "notched".  See the discussion here:
http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=3043.0


Offline SANDAC

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #274 on: February 16, 2012, 10:07:30 PM »
That also bump up the known small army population by one, so instead of 4 out of 67 Kublai Khan, it is now 5 out of 68, or one in every 14 Kublai Khan.  Still pretty rare.

Offline Gilmore

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #275 on: February 16, 2012, 10:56:48 PM »
Sandac, thank you for the information about the "small army" vs "big army" varieties. I was not aware that it has been discussed before.

Offline SANDAC

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #276 on: February 16, 2012, 11:01:42 PM »
I'm not going to bid on it, but I will watch this auction with interest.  I don't know whether the Chinese collectors know about "small army" and its rarity, or whether they even care.

Offline badon

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #277 on: February 16, 2012, 11:48:40 PM »
Is this specimen in the CC yet? Since I can't read Chinese, someone else will have to make a sighting for it. Volunteers?

Offline SANDAC

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #278 on: February 17, 2012, 12:41:47 AM »
I'll do it.  I've found few more Kublai Khan along the way, so I'll enter them all into CC.  The ratio is back to 15-to-1 now.

Offline exchange

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #279 on: February 22, 2012, 08:53:51 PM »
Yes, he is the only Chinese representative from the world historical figures. Although I have to say he is in good company with Giuseppe Verdi, Socrates and Rembrandt. I'll take any signed music sheet, painting and letters from either one! :)

exchange

I wonder how this group of famous men were chosen to be together as a set. It would be interesting to find out the process of who chose who. I wonder if Mr. Ge may know.

exchange
« Last Edit: February 22, 2012, 09:00:50 PM by exchange »

Offline SANDAC

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #280 on: February 22, 2012, 09:06:23 PM »
Very nice.  
I don't collect the world historical figures, so the coin is new to me.  Just looked it up in Mr. Ge's book and it says mintage of 4000 with 2-1/2 stars.  Interesting that mintage of 4000 should receive a 2-1/2 star rating.  It must mean the surviving population is quite small.  Like you say, it may be the "hook" to get people starting on the WHF.

Offline SANDAC

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #281 on: February 22, 2012, 09:11:41 PM »
I wonder who is the distributor for the world historical figures?  I imagine the distributor has a strong say in who get picked.  They are the one selling the coins, after all.

Offline exchange

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #282 on: February 22, 2012, 09:12:14 PM »
Very nice.  
I don't collect the world historical figures, so the coin is new to me.  Just looked it up in Mr. Ge's book and it says mintage of 4000 with 2-1/2 stars.  Interesting that mintage of 4000 should receive a 2-1/2 star rating.  It must mean the surviving population is quite small.  Like you say, it may be the "hook" to get people starting on the WHF.

The 1994 set is my favorite out of the four sets.

FYI here is my 1994 in OMP.

http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=1115.495

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Re: Varieties of silver Historical Figures, 1984 to 1993
« Reply #283 on: February 22, 2012, 09:40:48 PM »
Yes, he is the only Chinese representative from the world historical figures. Although I have to say he is in good company with Giuseppe Verdi, Socrates and Rembrandt. I'll take any signed music sheet, painting and letters from either one! :)

exchange

There also are 1/3oz gold for 黄帝、炎帝、大禹 和 周文王