Author Topic: WOW of the day  (Read 544766 times)

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Offline PandaOrLunar

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WOW of the day
« on: April 07, 2011, 04:38:50 AM »
1985 China International Year of Women Silver Coin

Current bid US$1,735.00 with 13 hours to go.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=350452142880&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT


Offline PandaOrLunar

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« Last Edit: April 11, 2011, 09:52:46 PM by PandaOrLunar »

Offline PandaOrLunar

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #2 on: April 16, 2011, 11:07:51 PM »

Offline PandaCollector

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #3 on: April 17, 2011, 12:41:40 AM »
I found another one advertised for $608.00. It looks like it's in better condition, too.

Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
http://www.pandacollector.com

Offline BChung

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Offline Panda Halves

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #5 on: April 17, 2011, 11:40:11 AM »
Yes, seller au3000 has several gems for sale at ridiculous prices. Sellers like this are horrible. Inexperienced sellers and buyers see coins offered for 3 to 7 times market price and think their coins are worth more than they are. That is the difference between what coins are offered at and what they actually sell at. I notice he also quotes Jay from rare panda coins in a dishonest auction. This sucks on several levels. People should not give business to this kind of seller. But hey, the dishonestly priced 1/10 gold 2001 coin is 5% off for a limited time only! If you wait too long it will be back over $25,000. What a joke.

Offline sbeverly

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #6 on: April 24, 2011, 10:36:23 AM »
China Panda Gold and Silver Coins Hardcover Book

Wow... I got one of those on my bookshelf. The pricing on anything Panda
related sometimes astounds me.

Offline Grip

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #7 on: April 24, 2011, 06:50:45 PM »
http://cgi.ebay.com/ANOTHER-NGC-ERROR-2001-GOLD-PANDA-PROOF-LIKE-CHINA-/350456363652?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5198d3ba84#ht_2055wt_954

Check this out... another unhonest seller
I wouldn't say he's necessarily dishonest, just opportunistic and fishing for clueless whales. If anyone buys this coin, they are :(1)- Rich and Insane, (2)-  Rich  with nothing else to  buy but oddities they don't understand (see #1),  3) Rich and know something we don't. If this coin sell's (it won't) I'm gonna list my recently mislabeled (1 oz gold LD 96 that is actually a SD ) for 1,000,000.00. If I get any takers (I won't) I'm moving to Hawaii to harass KJ. Go see Soul Surfer-great flick!!  
« Last Edit: April 24, 2011, 07:06:27 PM by Grip »

Offline BChung

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #8 on: April 24, 2011, 11:23:03 PM »

Offline PandaCollector

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #9 on: April 25, 2011, 12:02:56 AM »
The seller makes some statements about the rarity of the 1998 Large Date Pandas that strike me as questionable. For instance, how did he arrive at the less than 600 mintage for the 50 Yuan coin? I am also not in agreement that the 10 Yuan is the rarest of all 1/10 oz. Panda varieties. In any case it is an outstanding set of coins he is selling.

Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
http://www.pandacollector.com


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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #10 on: April 25, 2011, 03:12:40 AM »
Working off your figures, Peter, there seem to be quite a few 1/10 oz gold pandas rarer than the 1998.
Obviously, the 2000 Mirror, the 1999 Serif, some Proofs, 2001-D,  But what I am intrigued by, is both quite a few of 1990 decade BUs which you have listed lower than your 1998 BU estimate of 11,000, but with a reported 1998 mintage of 8,502? Typo?
Sticks out as odd..... :confused1:

KonaJim

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #11 on: April 25, 2011, 03:14:52 AM »
An ungraded 1998 large date set sold in Chicago in a private sale for I think it was $ 28,000.00.  Several people witnessed the sale.  If someone could get this set for $ 22,000.00 more, and all in a 69 grade from PCGS, that would be a large premium over the ungraded set, but you are not going to get a lot of opportunity for these coins in this grade.

The 1998 Panda large date set is by far the most sought after set in China.  It is more desirable than the 2000 mirror set, or the 1999 large date serif 1 set.  I'm not saying it is the rarest set, maybe nobody knows for sure, but it is the most desirable set right now.

I will defer to Peter's expertise on populations but 600 coins seems reasonable given that the total population is 4,168 for both large and small dates.  In October I was offered a set in this grade for $ 20,000.00.  I wish I had taken that offer.  

Offline PandaCollector

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #12 on: April 25, 2011, 03:49:08 AM »
Working off your figures, Peter, there seem to be quite a few 1/10 oz gold pandas rarer than the 1998.
Obviously, the 2000 Mirror, the 1999 Serif, some Proofs, 2001-D,  But what I am intrigued by, is both quite a few of 1990 decade BUs which you have listed lower than your 1998 BU estimate of 11,000, but with a reported 1998 mintage of 8,502? Typo?
Sticks out as odd..... :confused1:

Yes, there is a typo (oh, the pain!) for the 1/10 oz BU coin. The true estimate is around 6,000.

Jim, you are correct that there is far more demand for the 1998 than any of the other perhaps rarer varieties. The market will always have favorites and that's part of the fun. But here is the rub with the 4,168 revised mintage figure: there are reasons to doubt its accuracy. That makes it tricky to base other population estimates on it and have confidence in them, especially when quite a bit of money may ride on their validity.

Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
http://www.pandacollector.com

KonaJim

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #13 on: April 25, 2011, 03:46:12 PM »
I've spoken a lot on "popularity" versus "rarity".  A good example would be my recent sale to a Forum member of my 1993 gold 1/2 oz. Invention & Discovery set.  The price was $ 26,000.00, all coins in NGC PF69UC.  How does this set compare in "rarity" to a 1998 Panda large date set?  I think the I&D set is a much better buy.

Offline pandaguy212

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #14 on: April 25, 2011, 04:28:04 PM »
I think the 1998 LD graded 69 is pretty rare. The Invention and Discovery series came double sealed from the mint(I think but am not sure) and was well protected, while the 1998 LD came out as bullion. So to find a 98 LD in good enough condition that it will grade 69 is pretty difficult.



Offline PandaCollector

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #15 on: April 25, 2011, 07:05:59 PM »
...to find a 98 LD in good enough condition that it will grade 69 is pretty difficult.

Yes, that's true.

Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
http://www.pandacollector.com

Offline Panda Halves

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #16 on: April 25, 2011, 07:21:38 PM »

Offline Grip

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #17 on: April 25, 2011, 08:02:54 PM »
WOW!!!

Offline PandaOrLunar

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #18 on: April 25, 2011, 08:24:16 PM »
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&_trksid=p4340.l2557&rt=nc&nma=true&item=260770603368&si=W4XhQIqu8I7afdyYPzm9zOfWk5c%253D&viewitem=&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWAX%3AIT

China 1980 Silver 30Y Speed Skater PR-69 UC NGC

Ended:  US $1,338.00  :scared:

I believe this is not even the piedfort version.

Offline Grip

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #19 on: April 25, 2011, 08:26:52 PM »
Everyone-strap in...

Offline poconopenn

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #20 on: April 25, 2011, 09:55:29 PM »
It is very difficult to have this 1980 speed skater coin graded at PR69UC. Apparently, big dealer is always treated different by grading company. This coin should not be graded as PR69UC by NGC. Just look the surface discoloration around the rim, it is a low grade coin.

Offline Pandaguy

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #21 on: April 25, 2011, 10:02:48 PM »
It is very difficult to have this 1980 speed skater coin graded at PR69UC. Apparently, big dealer is always treated different by grading company. This coin should not be graded as PR69UC by NGC. Just look the surface discoloration around the rim, it is a low grade coin.

Right-on poconopenn. I have been saying this for a long time. There is no fairness in Dodge (or any where else).

Offline dobedo

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #22 on: April 25, 2011, 10:22:08 PM »
Right-on poconopenn. Buy the coin, not its grade.

KonaJim

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #23 on: April 25, 2011, 10:25:39 PM »
As my Father always said, " Who ever said life is fair "?  Grading is a mystery.  Here is a bad grading experience that left egg on my face.  I bought a PCGS MS67 wanting to conserve it and regrade it at NGC.  It came back a MS 64.  I then thought in that case I'll send it back to PCGS and it graded again MS 64.  I'm still not sure how it slipped three grades?  Moral to the story, I'll never do that again.  

Offline PandaCollector

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #24 on: April 25, 2011, 10:50:30 PM »
As my Father always said, " Who ever said life is fair "?  Grading is a mystery.  Here is a bad grading experience that left egg on my face.  I bought a PCGS MS67 wanting to conserve it and regrade it at NGC.  It came back a MS 64.  I then thought in that case I'll send it back to PCGS and it graded again MS 64.  I'm still not sure how it slipped three grades?  Moral to the story, I'll never do that again.   

Jim,

Did you crack the coin out of its NGC holder before you sent it to PCGS for the second time?

Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
http://www.pandacollector.com

Offline BChung

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #25 on: April 25, 2011, 11:29:46 PM »
Can I just have it conserved and slab and skip the grading part to save the sky high fees that they are charging then?

i am perfectly happy to not have it graded.....I just want to protect the coin.

KonaJim

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #26 on: April 25, 2011, 11:55:51 PM »
Yes, I did crack it out of the holder.  I am very careful and it only involves clipping the corners.  Then I can easily separate the two halves without touching the coin and slip into a mylar flip.

Offline Panda Halves

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #27 on: May 07, 2011, 11:00:25 PM »

Offline PandaCollector

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #28 on: May 07, 2011, 11:12:34 PM »
1991 Raw MS 1oz gold panda.
Such an amazingly low price.
Just $9,800....
http://cgi.ebay.com/CHINA-1991-PANDA-100-YUAN-1-oz-999-GOLD-PROOF-SEALED-/280668528269?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item415925de8d#ht_4966wt_930

It's not even a proof coin which it was listed as. Somebody called t***t put in a jaw-dropping bid of $9,600 but there were two bidders who came in even higher! The seller is well-known and there are multiple bidders so it's hard to account for the result. Good grief.
Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
http://www.pandacollector.com

Offline poconopenn

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #29 on: May 07, 2011, 11:37:19 PM »
This is a very questionable listing and may involve money laundry. IMO, r***g and 3***3 are the same person.

Both bidders purchased game and banknotes during last 30 days and no coin. 

http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewBidderProfile&mode=1&item=280668528269&aid=3***3&eu=pn5mQgCXAAINCKJx%2Faso2lO712Xx3R0g&view=NONE&ssPageName=PageBidderProfileViewBids_None_ViewLink

http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewBidderProfile&mode=1&item=280668528269&aid=r***g&eu=QgIqoAP9hpboQtIDI2z%2F4yJxqEUlZlSo&view=NONE&ssPageName=PageBidderProfileViewBids_None_ViewLink


Offline poconopenn

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #30 on: May 07, 2011, 11:41:43 PM »

Offline PandaCollector

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #31 on: May 07, 2011, 11:42:29 PM »
Yes, good point. It could also be a prearranged sale of something else. The seller has a good track record.

Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
http://www.pandacollector.com

Offline Panda Halves

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #32 on: May 08, 2011, 12:24:32 AM »
I have been seeing a few 1991 gold pandas getting scarffed up for seemingly unreasonable prices. This is the most ridiculous looking example. Is there some new mintage information or an unannounced new variety discovery in the works? Could be worth investigating?

Offline PandaOrLunar

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #33 on: May 08, 2011, 12:37:49 AM »
Hmm ... the top couple of bidders have small feedback history.

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #34 on: May 08, 2011, 01:00:49 AM »
Something smells here...

Offline PandaCollector

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #35 on: May 08, 2011, 01:54:51 AM »
Something smells here...

I think you can count on this auction not being what it appears to be, as poconopenn suggested. On more than one occasion I have learned of deals in which numerous coins were folded into a single item with only one coin shown in the listing. Sometimes the seller doesn't even include a photo. This arrangement has advantages for both buyer and seller. The seller pays eBay a very small commission on a percentage basis because the item price is very high. The buyer gains PayPal and eBay's buyer protection in case something goes wrong. My bet is that an arrangement similar to this is behind this sale. The seller has too long of a track record for this to be something else in my estimation.

Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
http://www.pandacollector.com

KonaJim

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #36 on: May 08, 2011, 03:12:44 AM »
I have done a few transactions in the manner you mention Peter, however there are a few problems with this listing for it to fall into this category.  First of all for a planned sale the auction is set up in a fashion that only the party who is the buyer can find the auction.  Typically, I'll put the listing outside the coin area, no pictures, and use a code word that has nothing with the word coin, China, or gold in the title.  How can you have a deal with a buyer and have multiple parties bidding on the auction?

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #37 on: May 08, 2011, 03:17:42 AM »
X'actly. I've seen a lot of "private auctions, only for so-and so", or something so weird it can only be a pre set up for a certain buyer. It's usually a Buy It Now.  No problem.  I agree with KJ, this does not appear to be that.

I'm scaling back, personally, on items up for bid, in favor of "Buy It Now"s.  If it's in my "reasonable" range, bingo.
If not , I'll wait.  Or just be self-deciplined enough to give it one bid at my limit.  There are definately scammers in abundance out there.  :glare:
« Last Edit: May 08, 2011, 03:34:27 AM by Underbidder »

Offline Pandora

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #38 on: May 08, 2011, 04:12:35 AM »
The 1991 seems to be very special year..for example, it comes before 1992 and after 1990. There is exactly 9 years difference between 1991 and 2000, the year of dragon. What more, the sum of digits in 1991 is also 20 which are first 2 digits in year 2000, and so on....I am not surprised even that price appears to be very low.  :ohmy:

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #39 on: May 08, 2011, 04:14:59 AM »
:blink:

Offline PandaCollector

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #40 on: May 08, 2011, 05:43:19 AM »
I have done a few transactions in the manner you mention Peter, however there are a few problems with this listing for it to fall into this category.  First of all for a planned sale the auction is set up in a fashion that only the party who is the buyer can find the auction.  Typically, I'll put the listing outside the coin area, no pictures, and use a code word that has nothing with the word coin, China, or gold in the title.  How can you have a deal with a buyer and have multiple parties bidding on the auction?

Jim,

I agree with all your points. Poconopenn thinks a couple of the "bidders" could be the same person. It all adds up to some strange happenings in Auctionland. Under the circumstances I can also appreciate Underbidder's resolve to steer clear of auctions and focus on fixed-price coins. Caution is certainly called for. Personally, I am keeping track of the bidders who have been involved in these goings on and plan to try to block bids by them on anything I might offer for sale on that site in the future.

Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
http://www.pandacollector.com

Offline PandaCollector

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #41 on: May 08, 2011, 06:13:04 AM »
One add, I've been doing an ultra-careful comparison of the auction coin's photo with reference images I have and it does look like this coin may not be the exact same variety as my coins. It's hard to be sure because of the eBay image resolution and it's also hard to know if that could explain the bidding action, but it's a possibility.

Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
http://www.pandacollector.com

Offline Grip

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #42 on: May 08, 2011, 07:44:04 AM »
I have been seeing a few 1991 gold pandas getting scarffed up for seemingly unreasonable prices. This is the most ridiculous looking example. Is there some new mintage information or an unannounced new variety discovery in the works? Could be worth investigating?
Looks like the MS "Proof" 92's are also taking off...
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=280668528552&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT

Offline poconopenn

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #43 on: May 08, 2011, 11:47:26 AM »
t***n and r***g were bidders of 1992 gold panda.

http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewBids&_trksid=p4340.l2565&item=280668528552

Shill bidder t***n won four items and did not pay for them (9-10 days after the end of auctions).

http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewBidItems&userid=honest12345&completed=1&all=1&rows=50&sort=12&_rdc=1

Seller mikew-actions left feedback to t***n.

http://feedback.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewFeedback2&userid=honest12345&ftab=AllFeedback

We knew for fact that this coin (1989 Pd 1 oz panda) was sold to mcc166 as second chance offer.

http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=2759.msg11502;topicseen#msg11502




Offline anaiman

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #44 on: May 08, 2011, 12:38:59 PM »
Shill bidder t***n won four items and did not pay for them (9-10 days after the end of auctions).
http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewBidItems&userid=honest12345&completed=1&all=1&rows=50&sort=12&_rdc=1

Hi poconopenn,
How did you know that he didn't pay for his items at least 9 or 10 days after the end of auctions?

Offline poconopenn

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #45 on: May 08, 2011, 12:47:57 PM »
If the item was paid, it would state as "purchased on..." as other five items won and paid by t***n.

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #46 on: May 08, 2011, 01:29:44 PM »
Poconopenn, that is great sleuthing. It really shows something is going on.

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #47 on: May 08, 2011, 02:47:51 PM »
 Very suspicious
« Last Edit: May 08, 2011, 03:01:29 PM by Underbidder »

Underbidder

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #48 on: May 08, 2011, 03:17:49 PM »
Ok, what is going on? Did this auctions records get changed? How can the "seller" leave feedback (false) for t***n?  Does this now block mcc168's chance to leave negative feedback of a shill bid and fraud? It's time this gets stopped guys, and all guilty parties banned.  I can't believe eBay has allowed this to go on, with the posting of this false feedback just yesterday. I would have thought they would have terminated the account of t***n by now, someone reported them, right? And now of course this seller is suspect.  Unless a lot of accounts are hijacked, and false transactions and fraud is rampant.

Offline PandaCollector

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #49 on: May 08, 2011, 05:57:55 PM »
Ok, what is going on? Did this auctions records get changed? How can the "seller" leave feedback (false) for t***n?

What item number?

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Peter Anthony
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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #50 on: May 08, 2011, 06:21:13 PM »
http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=2759.msg11502;topicseen#msg11502

Please read poconopenn's post again.  The same two bidders who shilled mcc168 (t***n and r***g) are the same ones who have been running up these other auctions to outrageous levels. Like the 1991 BU Panda to $9800 and the 1992 to $2850.  There's no was that's a "variety" suddenly worth that much. Not with those two scamming bidders! Maybe if it was you or KJ or Badon or Larry or someone else knowledgable on this board etc bidding, but these criminal clowns?
Com'on, wake up, smell the coffee, this is all dirty.

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #51 on: May 08, 2011, 06:40:17 PM »
No, I don't think the variety (if it even is one) is worth much or anything extra over any other 1991. The last bid that looks legit to me is at $2,800 by t***t; everything subsequent to that reminds me of Fantasyland. The remarkable part of this is that there still isn't any visible connection to the seller in this saga. Which reminds me, the federal prosecutor I spoke to said that it would be necessary to show that the shill has a financial interest in running up prices to get a conviction. That could be that he owns similar coins whose value he is trying to manipulate (which is where the wire fraud statutes come in), or being paid by the seller for his shill bid, but there needs to be some financial connection to make this a crime. That might be difficult to prove which is why he recommended taking civil action against the bad bidders. As he spent 20+ years putting away everyone from low-level drug dealers to the guys at the top I tend to accept his views on criminal laws.

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Peter Anthony
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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #52 on: May 08, 2011, 06:46:14 PM »
I'm not gonna say he's wrong, but that's wrong. Say someone mugs you and throws the wallet to someone in a speeding car. Then he shrugs and laughs and says he can't be prosecuted since you can't show he was enriched.  Sorry, not true. You are having a mental block on what constitutes a crime, it is NOT always defined by provable monetary gain.  If done for reasons of love, for hate, for attention, whatever, it is still a crime.
Remember, you are saying HE said " Get a conviction.". That is the rub, any court, any day, makes different decisions on whether to convict, on the same evidence.  But same thing with all crimes.  So yes, on some days in some courts that mugger will be convicted. Remember when I said a prosecutor would reply by splitting hairs since he is an attorney? Well there you go.  LOL!
« Last Edit: May 08, 2011, 06:55:08 PM by Underbidder »

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #53 on: May 08, 2011, 06:57:08 PM »
OK, just for the hypothetical fun of it I'll bite one more time. If someone assaults you and takes your wallet he will charged with theft, assault, battery and who knows how many other things. Just taking your wallet, or any other property, from you is a crime. It makes little difference that he no longer possesses it – physically threatening you and taking your property is a crime. This issue with the fake bids is a much less clear cut situation. I think you need a different example or analogy.

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Peter Anthony
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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #54 on: May 08, 2011, 06:59:40 PM »
And by the way, you are ignoring obvious implications in some of these cases, by apparently wanting so badly to believe there are no sellers involved.
How do you explain away the fact that the seller gave this shill t***n positive feedback, to an item that he shilled mcc168 on, and hey I thought mcc168 won, hmmm?
There is weird chit going on here, there are other possibilities  but I don't want to go down those roads yet.

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #55 on: May 08, 2011, 07:01:45 PM »
That's right, just TAKING someone's property, or defrauding them, is a crime.  Shill bidding is a crime.  It is easier to PROVE if they can show enrichment, but not necessary.  Do some Google searches on the subject, you'll be glad you did.
Poconopenn is all over this... He is pointing it out.  Read his posts again if you still cant see it.

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #56 on: May 08, 2011, 07:09:36 PM »
Have you asked the seller why he left that feedback for t**n for this item? If you haven't I will be happy to go ahead and contact him. I want to see all the information possible before making my mind up.

And please define "shill bidding," so I can be sure we are talking about the same thing. To me a fake, or dishonest bid, is not necessarily a shill bid although it certainly can be. According to Wikipedia , "A shill or plant is a person who helps another person or organization to sell goods or services without disclosing that he or she has a close relationship with the seller." So what is missing here is the relationship to the seller. We need to close the circle to understand what is going on.

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Peter Anthony
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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #57 on: May 08, 2011, 07:26:47 PM »
Did you go further in looking up a definition, or stop at one that satisfied your point? (which seems to be, there is no proven relationship to the sellers, nothing wrong, nothing fishy, move along, nothing to see, people)

Why not go to the first listing on Google, from eBay itself ( I think their's is a good definition, we can agree on that, yes?):

http://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/seller-shill-bidding.html

Shill bidding happens when anyone bids on an item in order to artificially increase its price or desirability. Shill bidding also happens when someone a seller knows bids on the seller's item. This includes family members, friends (including online friends), roommates, or employees.

We don't allow shill bidding on eBay because people the seller knows might have information about the item that other members don't, which might give them an unfair advantage.

If people you know want to buy your item, they should do so in a way that doesn't involve bidding. For example, you can sell the item at a fixed price or offer Buy It Now, and they can buy the item that way. However, these purchases can't be made for the purpose of artificially increasing a seller's Feedback or improving search standing.  

Make sure you follow these guidelines. If you don’t, you may be subject to a range of actions, including limits of your buying and selling privileges and suspension of your account. Shill bidding is also illegal in many places and can carry severe penalties.

« Last Edit: May 08, 2011, 07:40:22 PM by Underbidder »

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #58 on: May 08, 2011, 07:44:20 PM »
Actually, I was satisfied with the Wikipedia definition but since eBay has a broader one than eBay has an obligation to enforce it. What concerns me is that you called the actions of various people criminal. While eBay can define shill bidding any way it likes and enforce that definition on its members, a criminal act is defined by law and in that respect I believe the narrower definition I quoted is the relevant one. I also believe that is why the prosecutor recommended that the remedy for such actions would be found in civil, not criminal, court.

In the meantime I have emailed the seller of the palladium coin and asked him some questions. His answers, assuming he does answer, may get us closer to the truth of this matter.

Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #59 on: May 08, 2011, 07:50:18 PM »
I called it criminal because it is criminal. Its covered under the Fraud Act of 2006. Like I said. You really need to Google it and not stop at the first few citings that support your position, to be accurate on this.

And the feedback from mikew-actions was positive feedback, @#$%^&*! :(

Doesn't make sense, positive feedback, with a curse and a sad face.  As if to say "Good, trust this buyer/ Cr*p, Bad!"

Does this make sense to you?  Of course not

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #60 on: May 08, 2011, 08:05:16 PM »
The Fraud Act of 2006 is a British, not an American Law. The seller and buyer are in the USA, so how does that apply?

I am hoping mikew-actions will explain his feedback. If he doesn't than your interpretation of it strikes me as plausible. Personally. I want to know if these bids are the actions of one loose cannon, perhaps with several eBay monikers, or if these bad bids have a more widespread source.

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Peter Anthony
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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #61 on: May 08, 2011, 08:16:39 PM »
S2280 Stop Fraud Act- Sponsor : Barack Obama ! LOL! How do like them apples?  :laugh:
Never passed. I'll pull up the proper legal citation for you when I pull it up again.

Maybe you and I can agree on this: I'm realizing you have a much greater tolerance for this kind of thing than I do. Agreed?

Since it appears there is little interest in this subject except maybe from Panda Halves and Poconopenn,
I think I'll go do what I have to do and forego the alerts from now on. I have better things to spend my time on if that's the case.

"So move along people, keep it moving, nothing to see here."

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #62 on: May 08, 2011, 08:33:50 PM »
Ok, what is going on? Did this auctions records get changed? How can the "seller" leave feedback (false) for t***n?  Does this now block mcc168's chance to leave negative feedback of a shill bid and fraud? It's time this gets stopped guys, and all guilty parties banned.  I can't believe eBay has allowed this to go on, with the posting of this false feedback just yesterday. I would have thought they would have terminated the account of t***n by now, someone reported them, right? And now of course this seller is suspect.  Unless a lot of accounts are hijacked, and false transactions and fraud is rampant.

Hey underbidder... If you were to bid my auction up artificially $800+ then back out so I could second chance it out I suppose it would be worth leaving you positive feedback.

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #63 on: May 08, 2011, 08:41:20 PM »
You are incorrect: I have no tolerance for fraud. I have spent not just hours, but weeks photographing counterfeit coins and building a web page that explains to collectors and buyers alike how to avoid fake coins (http://www.pandacollector.com/rogue.html). I have no tolerance for fake bids, either.

I think everyone is agreement that certain bids on eBay have inflated prices and caused harm to other bidders. The question is, who is responsible and what to do about it? I remain in favor of sending eBay a petition with as many signatures on it as possible to demand a change in their regulations for retracting bids. I would love to know if eBay's failure to enforce its own rules on what eBay defines as shill bids leaves it open to civil suits by defrauded bidders. I also would like to know how to go about getting eBay to terminate the memberships of anyone who has placed a false bid.

But I also have no interest in smearing the names of people or companies who haven't been proven to have done anything wrong. So far, in this discussion, I have seen several of the oldest and largest companies involved with Chinese Numismatics labeled or suggested to be conspirators in a shill bidding ring. The same is true of some smaller sellers. To state or imply these accusations in public without proof is something, to put it kindly, that I object to. So far, I have seen no evidence at all that any seller has engaged in fraud. If and when that turns up I will be delighted to ask eBay to ban them. Until then, there is plenty to do to rid the big auction site of crooked bidders.

Finally, since you mention it, S. 2280: the STOP FRAUD Act never got out of committee. It was never passed and is meaningless in bringing criminal charges against anyone.

Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
http://www.pandacollector.com 

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #64 on: May 09, 2011, 02:46:57 AM »
Say, Underbidder, you threw that stuff about the British law in there just to yank my chain, didn't you? And I fell for it. Pity the poor moderator... well, I apologize if I got too wound up on the topic. None of us like what we are seeing, each in our own way.

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Peter Anthony
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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #65 on: May 09, 2011, 02:49:47 AM »
 :001_cool:

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #66 on: May 09, 2011, 11:01:22 AM »
OK, I have some bits and pieces of info about t**n from two sellers who have dealt with her. Mike explained that his cryptic feedback was to indicate she is a flake. She won the item and then afterward started pestering him about its condition. Finally she begged to be excused from buying the coin. He agreed but left the feedback to alert others. It never occurred to him that there could be anything sinister about her, just flaky. Mr Wang has written me that she actually paid for the coin she won from him. He has no sense of the controversy she has caused and he and I had a nice back-and-forth about Pandas. Anyway, make of it what you will, but those are the accounts of people who have dealt with t**n first-hand. For me it confirms my belief that the sellers haven't been part of any ring, but it leaves open the question of just what game the lady is playing.

Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
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Offline dobedo

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #67 on: May 09, 2011, 01:17:47 PM »
Compulsive Flake Disorder (CFC)?

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #68 on: May 09, 2011, 09:08:23 PM »
IMO, seller r_h_wang may not tell the completed story. Based on the following link, t***n has not made payment for 1991 gold panda set yet.
 
http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewBidItems&userid=honest12345&completed=1&all=1&rows=50&sort=12&_rdc=1

t***n won Wang’s listing shortly (no more than 4 hours 12 minutes) after the item listed. The list requires paypal payment within 24 hours. If t***n had made payment via paypal or other methods already, it should be stated as “purchased on....” in the above eBay link.

The pictures of the 1991 set were removed by Wang shortly after the list ended, while other sold items by Wang still have pictures. Obviously, Wang does not want anybody to see the pictures of this set.
 
IMO, this is a pre-arranged “fake” sale to manipulate the price of modern Chinese coin market. The current fair value of 1991 BU gold panda set should be about $3,500-4,000. t***n has to have an above-average knowledge in modern Chinese coins in order to do the shill bids. It is very difficult to believe that t***n is willing to pay extra $1,000 for this set.

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #69 on: May 09, 2011, 10:43:40 PM »
IMO, seller r_h_wang may not tell the completed story. Based on the following link, t***n has not made payment for 1991 gold panda set yet.
 
http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewBidItems&userid=honest12345&completed=1&all=1&rows=50&sort=12&_rdc=1


Verrry interesting...thanks. Maybe we are making some progress in getting to the bottom of this.

Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
http://www.pandacollector.com

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #70 on: May 09, 2011, 10:51:30 PM »
Poconopenn- I wish they would listen to you. You are so right. Fully 90% of what I've been saying is being chosen to be ignored. Remember I told you this set was stolen from me in an auction I won, next thing I knew the set was listed again in  minutes, and this seller rhwang was the buyer. I even paid for the set, and the payment was returned ! All in minutes! And the first seller told me they had several of these, and they sold another 1991 to another buyer. They tried to get me to void my purchase under the guise of selling me two sets, but I sensed there was shinanagins going on.
I filed an eBay  report and bad feedback, and the seller filed retaliatory feedback that eBay negated. eBay investegated including looking at messages from the seller that were dishonest and agreed the deal was rotten but wouldn't pursue since my payment was returned.  I got exhausted bringing up the fact that there IS monkey business going on, and yes, it involves sellers.  Some very distinguished people don't want to see it, so they won't.

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #71 on: May 09, 2011, 11:07:46 PM »
Well, here is one seller who apparently didn't tell me the entire truth and who has a strong interest in the values of Chinese coins as demonstrated by his emails. And the same seller was involved in a shady deal as a buyer. I don't know if we hooked a minnow or a big fish, but something is on the line.

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Peter Anthony
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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #72 on: May 10, 2011, 12:16:29 AM »
If eBay will not act, then may be we can go to media. That will be more effective than bringing a lawsuit in the long run. How about some of those programs that are investigative like 20/20, etc...?

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #73 on: May 10, 2011, 12:20:46 AM »
If eBay will not act, then may be we can go to media. That will be more effective than bringing a lawsuit in the long run. How about some of those programs that are investigative like 20/20, etc...?

If we can demonstrate a BIG conspiracy on eBay, not just for Chinese coins, than the media might get interested. Does anyone know if this kind of thing happens with U.S. coins? That might interest the numismatic media, at least.

Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #74 on: May 10, 2011, 12:27:09 AM »
I keep trying to tell everybody with little success that auctions have been rigged probably since the beginning of time.  It's like the stock market, some people believe it's fair.  If you want to believe that, fine, but don't be surprised when you find the things that are turning up.  Does it mean there are no "fair" sales, no, it means always be aware that where there is money there is fraud and manipulation.  I don't care what auction house we are talking, Christie's, Sotheby's which already settled a collusion charge and were fined heavily, or any other Auction House.  Caveat Emptor.  Buyer beware.

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #75 on: May 10, 2011, 12:43:16 AM »
True

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #76 on: May 10, 2011, 12:50:32 AM »
If we can demonstrate a BIG conspiracy on eBay, not just for Chinese coins, than the media might get interested. Does anyone know if this kind of thing happens with U.S. coins? That might interest the numismatic media, at least.

Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
http://www.pandacollector.com

eBay is very high profile and highly visible. If these kind of things are happening with coins, may be they are happening with other high price collectibles too. There is a very high chance mainstream media may take interest.

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #77 on: May 10, 2011, 01:53:25 AM »
mikew-actions reports that he will block this bidder from all his future auctions.

Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #78 on: May 10, 2011, 02:29:21 AM »
Well, Thank God, then that solves THAT PROBLEM!!  :lol:

Move along folks, all fixed, nothing to see.

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #79 on: May 10, 2011, 02:33:53 AM »
Pandora, yes they are. It's rampant like KJ said, and I've said more than a few times, caveat emptor, and thanks to poconopenn for his sleuthing.  Don't be Pollyanna, be aware of your seller and the other bidders. Play cards but cut the deck yourself.

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #80 on: May 10, 2011, 02:41:51 AM »
Well, Thank God, then that solves THAT PROBLEM!!  :lol:

Move along folks, all fixed, nothing to see.

Underbidder, I'm curious, what you are doing or what do you suggest to solve the problem(s) you see on eBay? Caveat emptor isn't exactly hot news. Anything else? I plan to avoid auctions that t**n and a couple of others who have been mentioned are bidding on. I also added the name of one seller to the list of those I don't trust. I very much hope that we can collectively complain enough that eBay changes their bid retraction policies. That would eliminate one headache. Anything else? Thanks!

Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
http://www.pandacollector.com

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #81 on: May 10, 2011, 02:54:31 AM »
Me? I 'm trying to get people riled up who are being cheated. Riled up enough to get on the phone and demand eBay clean up by banishing the obvious cheats.  I do that. But we need to do it en mass.  They'll come back, but we need to make it harder. Blocking them one seller at a time is a start, so thanks, on behalf of us all, but we need to pull up the weed a bit to shake off the dirt.

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #82 on: May 10, 2011, 03:09:01 AM »
We are in 100% agreement on that and that eBay needs to change the bid retraction rules. I hope that everyone who has been following this discussion contacts eBay and lets them know that they are less likely to do business on eBay if this situation isn't remedied. I will call eBay again tonight to make that point.

Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #83 on: May 10, 2011, 03:24:42 AM »
PA, you are the MVP on this site, thanks for all you do!  But  really, " let them know we are less likely to do business?"  "Maybe somewhat less likely?" :biggrin:
Jeez, let's demand to get rid of the cheats, period.
Name 'em and demand banning. Together. Now.

Offline Straitssettlementshop

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #84 on: May 10, 2011, 03:38:08 AM »
Panda Collector,
With so much fictitious bids on ebay I wonder how are you going to record the realized price on ebay into Pricepedia.

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #85 on: May 10, 2011, 03:41:21 AM »
I intend to name names when I call.

And I have to add that there are several MVP candidates here and that we are all collectively winners.

Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
http://www.pandacollector.com

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #86 on: May 10, 2011, 03:59:16 AM »
Panda Collector,
With so much fictitious bids on ebay I wonder how are you going to record the realized price on ebay into Pricepedia.

It will make more work for me. Fortunately, this seems to be a problem in a minority of auctions. If a price seems out of line I will look into it as I always do. I already don't report prices that seem strange or inexplicable. I figure that the readers are willing to rely on my judgment that a price is misleading and should be excluded, or included only as a note. I have now added certain bidders to my blacklist and will do my best to exclude auctions where they could have influenced the final price.

I do think that, as KonaJim said, we have to realize that all auctions can be manipulated. The Pricepedia does include dealer prices to compare the auction results to and between auctions and fixed-priced dealer lists one can generally get close to the mark. As one experienced dealer likes to say, you have to triangulate to find the true price of a Chinese coin – its value is the sum of several different pieces of information, not just one. I try to put as much relevant information as possible into each issue so that we can establish a realistic range of values for the coins.

Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
http://www.pandacollector.com


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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #87 on: May 10, 2011, 09:04:51 AM »
Why don't we start a thread/list to keep track of the bad bidders, with links to their activities so that newcomers to this info will have an easier time identifying suspect auctions?

We can post all the info we know about the buyers, like t**n's true ebay id etc. and also include the names of sellers that are strongly suspected of inappropriate activity.


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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #88 on: May 10, 2011, 12:23:09 PM »
Hello Gang,


  Seems like every feebay auction that AU3000 is a wow of the day!   whats going on?????
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Offline Panda Halves

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #89 on: May 10, 2011, 03:02:07 PM »
Some craziness is going on here with that seller, other sellers, and bidders.

How about paying:
"Approximately US $9,779.92"
For a set of 1987P coins in PR69?

http://cgi.ebay.com/1987-P-CHINA-PANDA-GOLD-PROOF-5-COIN-SET-PCGS-PR69-DCAM-/150575950562?pt=UK_Coins_World_RL&hash=item230f06aae2

Offline Pandora

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #90 on: May 10, 2011, 03:58:18 PM »
The 1987-P was a but-it-now sale, so no bidding issues here.

One possibility is, some one high profile, wants to build PCGS only set...

One thing we can check for is - are all these high price auctions/sales returnable? may be some one is buying and then just returning them, thus establishing the market price for those coins...

Offline anaiman

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #91 on: May 10, 2011, 06:27:31 PM »
Compulsive Flake Disorder (CFC)?
From too many CFCs in the air?

Offline poconopenn

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #92 on: May 10, 2011, 08:13:50 PM »
Some craziness is going on here with that seller, other sellers, and bidders.

How about paying:
"Approximately US $9,779.92"
For a set of 1987P coins in PR69?

http://cgi.ebay.com/1987-P-CHINA-PANDA-GOLD-PROOF-5-COIN-SET-PCGS-PR69-DCAM-/150575950562?pt=UK_Coins_World_RL&hash=item230f06aae2

Current price (ask) for gold proof sets in original box and COA inside China

1986      $3,700-$3,900
1987      $3,700-$3,900
1988      $3,700-$3,900
1989      $4,000-$4,200
1990      $4,200-$4,400
1991      $4,900-$5,100
1992     $13,500-$14,000

This 1987 NGC PF69 set (BIN, $3,599) was sold instantly.

http://cgi.ebay.com/1987-China-Panda-Gold-5-Coin-Set-NGC-Proof-PF69-w-box-/280671812030?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item415957f9be

This 1988 NGC PF69 set was sold for $3,502 (19 bids). Seller smallsword was previously mentioned in this Forum in connecting with shill bids by n***t. This listing clearly shows that this seller has nothing to do with the shill bidders.

http://cgi.ebay.com/5-1988-PROOF-ULTRA-CAMEO-CHINA-PANDAS-GOLD-NGC-PF69-SET-/230611769110?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item35b1885716


Offline Panda Halves

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #93 on: May 10, 2011, 08:58:01 PM »
Still almost 10k for a graded 1987 proof set?
What are china prices for 1993 1994 proof sets.

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #94 on: May 10, 2011, 09:15:35 PM »
For some reason jibi.net does not list the prices for the 1993 or 1994 set.  Maybe someone can tell us why?

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #95 on: May 10, 2011, 09:34:08 PM »
For some reason jibi.net does not list the prices for the 1993 or 1994 set.  Maybe someone can tell us why?

It may because there aren't any for sale. I believe that's the case for the 1994 and it may hold true for the 1993.

Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
http://www.pandacollector.com

Offline Straitssettlementshop

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #96 on: May 10, 2011, 09:37:34 PM »
could it be the possible that the chinese dealers are hoarding the 1994 and 1993 now ?

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #97 on: May 10, 2011, 09:40:05 PM »
I am quite certain they aren't hoarding the 1994 – it's not available. I had someone who knows practically everyone there at a dealer-to-dealer level looking for one a couple of months ago and he found just one. That one is now gone.

Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
http://www.pandacollector.com

Offline Panda Halves

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #98 on: May 10, 2011, 09:54:03 PM »
 :biggrin:
I think the 1994 may be rarer than the 1992 set.
When was the last time a 1994 gold proof coin other than the 25y 1/4 has been on eBay?
How many 1992 sets or singles have been for sale by comparison.
What is an accurate mintage figure for 1994 proof sets?

Offline poconopenn

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #99 on: May 10, 2011, 10:53:37 PM »
1993 4-coin proof set (no bimetal) was sold $5171 at H.K. Champion auction on 4/17/11.

1994 4-coin proof set (no bimetal) was sold $6,000 at H.K. Champion auction on 1/22/11.

The mintage of 1993 is 2,005 and 1994 is 903.

The bimetal has a higher mintage vs. proof set and the current fair value will be $1,200-$2,000.

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #100 on: May 10, 2011, 11:03:37 PM »
1993 4-coin proof set (no bimetal) was sold $5171 at H.K. Champion auction on 4/17/11.

1994 4-coin proof set (no bimetal) was sold $6,000 at H.K. Champion auction on 1/22/11.


+18% juice.

Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
http://www.pandacollector.com

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #101 on: May 10, 2011, 11:13:10 PM »
I just bought a 1993 proof set two days ago on Ebay for $ 5,700.00.  I was the only bidder.

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #102 on: May 10, 2011, 11:20:37 PM »
Add the 1994 set sold by Champion in December and the 10k set that sold on Apmex in March and you have three sets or partial sets sold  by dealers since September. I have seen around two dozen 1992 sets or singles sell in the same time frame. I think there is a possibility that the actual mintage could be less than 903 for the 1994. Aside from large date / small date / mirror and other varieties it is the rarest PF/MS pattern in the NGC registry for fractional pandas and the key to completing MS/PF fractional sets. It was quite an ordeal for me to find a nice one. 1992 sets have remained steadily obtainable.

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #103 on: May 10, 2011, 11:21:39 PM »
I just bought a 1993 proof set two days ago on Ebay for $ 5,700.00.  I was the only bidder.

Which is an example of why it's important to know price levels in North America as well as Asia/China. There's a reason many Chinese dealers and collectors buy numismatic material in other countries and ship it back to China. There just aren't enough people in the Americas who "get it" yet about these coins. When I walk around a show floor at least 80% of the dealers don't want to hear about Chinese coins. By the time they finally figure it out there isn't going to be much on this continent to trade. I'm a firm believer that important Chinese coins frequently bring higher prices in Hong Kong or Beijing than in the U.S. or Europe. Jim, congratulations on a well-bought set of coins.

Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
http://www.pandacollector.com
« Last Edit: May 10, 2011, 11:28:52 PM by PandaCollector »

Offline PandaCollector

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #104 on: May 10, 2011, 11:22:31 PM »
It was quite an ordeal for me to find a nice one.

Tell me about it! Actually, it was an interesting experience.

Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
http://www.pandacollector.com

Offline Panda Halves

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #105 on: May 10, 2011, 11:26:36 PM »
Yes. Thank you one again Peter! Quite an ordeal... But with a happy end.

Offline Straitssettlementshop

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #106 on: May 11, 2011, 12:20:51 AM »
Panda Collector,
The price and the rartity of 1994 espically the 1/2oz. gold BU is so much cheaper and rarer compared with the 1998 1/2oz. gold BU version. Why is the disparity so wide in term of price ?

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #107 on: May 11, 2011, 12:44:35 AM »
The madness of crowds. Actually, those exact coins are one of the subjects of my commentary on undervalued Pandas in the current Panda Pricepedia. Just the fact you have raised the topic is important.

Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
http://www.pandacollector.com


Offline Panda Halves

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #108 on: May 11, 2011, 12:46:36 AM »
The price and the rartity of 1994 espically the 1/2oz. gold BU is so much cheaper and rarer

Shhhhh

Offline poconopenn

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #109 on: May 11, 2011, 01:05:19 AM »
I just bought a 1993 proof set two days ago on Ebay for $ 5,700.00.  I was the only bidder.

Here is another 1993 set sold for $5,267.44 on May 6.

http://cgi.ebay.com/1993-Panda-Proof-Set-1-Coin-Bimetal-4-Coins-Gold-/320692251050?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4aaabf69aa

IMO, all proof gold pandas are undervalued either in US or China. It does not make any sense that 1991 proof set is valued at 50% of 1998 BU set.

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #110 on: May 11, 2011, 01:55:02 AM »
Agreed.  100%.  The only counterpoint is that the BUs were sold individually, and not cared for, and abused, so their numbers of top quality coins is low in survivorship.  All the Proof Sets were cared for and encapsulated, so all survive well. But I agree with you, in the end, the numbers are likely comparable, so why are the rarer proof sets so undervalued comparatively?  I snatched up as many as I could afford a few years ago with this in mind.  I missed a few too.  :mad:

Offline PandaCollector

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #111 on: May 11, 2011, 02:00:48 AM »
Agreed.  100%.  The only counterpoint is that the BUs were sold individually, and not cared for, and abused, so their numbers of top quality coins is low in survivorship.  All the Proof Sets were cared for and encapsulated, so all survive well. But I agree with you, in the end, the numbers are likely comparable, so why are the rarer proof sets so undervalued comparatively?  I snatched up as many as I could afford a few years ago with this in mind.  I missed a few too.  :mad:

Just to add to that thought, there was significant melting of the BU coins during the '90s. I believe this affected the proofs to a lesser degree, although no doubt some of those were made into pins and rings, too.

Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
http://www.pandacollector.com

Offline Straitssettlementshop

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #112 on: May 11, 2011, 09:36:07 AM »
I have a few of the 1994 1/2oz. gold Panda gold MS69. Mintage less than 2000.

Happy Viewing !
Andrew





Offline Panda Halves

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #113 on: May 11, 2011, 12:16:46 PM »
 :drool:
Awesome spread. Those are some fantastic coins.

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #114 on: May 11, 2011, 12:39:08 PM »
Very nice, I like these and have some myself... But I think the correct phrase should be " BU survivorship Estimated to be under 2,000" ,  while Mintage was over 16,000.  Still, scarce and a beautiful coin in those MS69 grades.

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #115 on: May 11, 2011, 12:41:23 PM »
Very nice, I like these and have some myself... But I think the correct phrase should be " BU survivorship Estimated to be under 2,000" ,  while Mintage was over 16,000.  Still, scarce and a beautiful coin in those MS69 grades.

Wisely said !  :thumbup1:

Offline mrslick32

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #116 on: May 11, 2011, 09:55:03 PM »
Apmex is currently offering a 1999 1 oz. Silver Large Date with Serif for sale. Their asking price is $3,495. I know that it's a very rare coin, but the asking price is unbelievable. Double wow if I find out that they sold that coin for that price.

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #117 on: May 11, 2011, 09:56:45 PM »
In that case the MS68 I have listed on Ebay is a steal at $ 800.00.

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #118 on: May 11, 2011, 10:17:55 PM »
In that case the MS68 I have listed on Ebay is a steal at $ 800.00.

Anybody who buys this coin will have a paper profit of $2,695. Who says economy is doing bad!  :biggrin:

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #119 on: May 12, 2011, 08:56:20 AM »
KonaJim,
I wouldn't say your 68 1999 is a steal.... at least not as much as a 1994 PF68 1/4 gold panda for sub $900.
 :blush:

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #120 on: May 12, 2011, 09:56:10 AM »
If I remember right, an originally sealed 1999 1 oz. silver Large Date with Serif passed through eBay in February for $175. That was a good deal for somebody. I was kind of surprised when I spotted it after the auction was over.

Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
http://www.pandacollector.com

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #121 on: May 13, 2011, 12:36:52 AM »
Maybe someone could verify this but I believe the "Realized" prices on the Champion Auction site do include the 18% fee.  I say that because in looking at the prices some have some odd numbers like $ 2,530.00, and there are other examples but with the even bid increments it looks to me like the fee has been included in the prices.  I would also guess that Champion wants to publish the higher prices.

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #122 on: May 13, 2011, 05:23:42 AM »
@KonaJim

The realized prices on the Champion homepage have included fee (15% or 18%,... depends on bidding type). The prices on Liveauctioneers are without fee.
Here is an example.

Offline bonke

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #123 on: May 13, 2011, 08:55:38 AM »
How much does Champion Auction charge the seller?  Then, we could look at the Champion results and determine the actual amount paid to the seller, after subtracting the fees paid by the buyer (15-18%) and the seller (  %).  Mark Bonke

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #124 on: May 18, 2011, 02:14:58 AM »

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #126 on: May 18, 2011, 02:32:15 AM »
Hong Kong: Trolling for whales !    :001_tongue: I wish him luck, as that should raise the value of the PF68 ones I have.  :biggrin:
 For the SF 88, yeah, Jon has been trying to sell that one for a while. Started out at mid threes, he countered an offer of mine to 3600, but that was ages ago on the same coin, so offer him that and see what he says !  Some sellers have fantasy ideas of worth, he way overprices but at least he entertains offers.

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #127 on: May 18, 2011, 02:39:28 AM »
Personally, I like the design of 88 SF better. What a design - cast in full 1 oz Gold, huge eye appeal and brilliant luster. Feels more connected to he Dragon theme than the HK expo. HK expo has more boxy design, but it has a Panda too. The brain will say buy the HK for its low mintage. Heart will say buy SF for its beautiful flow.

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #128 on: May 18, 2011, 02:51:09 AM »
Agreed.  That 88 SF Dragon is one of the top, if not THE top, dragon coin for eye appeal. I love the dots around the dragon- unique.  Gorgeous.  And a relative low Mintage at 1,500. A must have, at a reasonable price.  But you also need the Hong Kong for the rarity. So gotta have both!  :thumbup:
« Last Edit: May 18, 2011, 03:06:55 AM by Underbidder »

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #129 on: May 18, 2011, 03:11:19 AM »
Nice coin too, that Hong Kong. The whole Hong Kong series is great, gold and silver. I hope he catches a whale
« Last Edit: May 18, 2011, 03:19:47 AM by Underbidder »

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #130 on: May 18, 2011, 03:35:04 AM »
For purposes of comparison, a popular panda 1988 ANA 1oz medal PF 69 with lower Mintage of 1000 recently went for $3,500, and raw for $3,675, so that is ballpark value I believe, not $9,800 until proven otherwise.

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #131 on: May 18, 2011, 09:04:35 AM »
These both coins are in different category than 88 ANA, because these are also Dragon medals. I think they will hold their value at least through 2012 since it is a dragon year. I will not be surprised if SF medal goes beyond 10,000 for some time. To think of it, the top 3 Dragon coins in terms of mintage are: (excluding Platinum, 1 oz or below)

1988 HK - 500 mintage
1988 SF - 1500 mintage
2000 Flower shape - 2300 mintage

So is there any one who has all 3 in top grade?  :thumbup:

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    • WORLDCOLLECTIBLES310
EMERGING MARKET GROUP  
195 south BEVERLY Dr. BEVERLY HILLS

Long Beach Expo
..Table #838

DECEMBER: Macau/H.K.

JANUARY: N.Y.

AUGUST: Hong Kong


GO TO my Ebay Click: http://stores.ebay.com/worldcollectibles310

EMERGING MARKET GROUP

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Offline Panda Halves

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #134 on: May 23, 2011, 01:39:44 AM »
1984 NGCMS69 Gold 1/2 Sells for sub-$900 despite being on badon's list with the following recommendation:
"$750 auction starting price. You don't see these very often..."

While a 1/2 gold 1984  panda isn't terribly rare badon is right that you don't see this coin very often... in MS69 grade.
Someone besides me got a good buy on this one:  :001_cool:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&_trksid=p4340.l2557&rt=nc&nma=true&item=110688407662+&si=HsrmJ8u%252BwjNFvBU9FrOG0mXszmg%253D&viewitem=&clk_rvr_id=234401419810

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #135 on: May 23, 2011, 01:53:48 AM »
Yes, someone picked up a nice deal there.  There are still deals to be had.
My nomination for WOTD is that two, not one but count 'em TWO, Gold Mirror PF69 1oz Pandas sold today, fast, for over  $ 7,100.    This coin may be, deservedly or not, as someone put it, the Trophy wife type gold coin, (the Silver 2000 mirror being just the cheerleader?)  :biggrin:

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #136 on: May 23, 2011, 02:52:32 AM »
I just thought I'd add, as an afterthought, that as an owner/ former owner, I hope the 2000 gold Mirror does NOT prove to be as troublesome as the former "Trophy Wife"  :001_cool:

Offline smbgaiden

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #137 on: May 27, 2011, 11:21:51 AM »
Wow of the day in an auction that I lost:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=130522985189

7 sets of Chinese Bronze Archaelogical Finds Commemoratives 5Y - $7101

Wows me for the price and for the size of the hoard that suddenly came on line.

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #138 on: May 27, 2011, 11:29:07 AM »
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Offline PandaOrLunar

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #139 on: June 12, 2011, 02:49:19 PM »
I'm aware of the 800 mintage.  But at US$13,000.00 starting bid, it need to be included in the WOW of the Day.

1996 Silver Panda 12 Ounce:  http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=120734722939&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT

 :scared: :scared:

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #140 on: June 18, 2011, 07:30:55 PM »
1992 gold Panda 1 oz PCGS MS69:  $4,061.  

Ebay Item number:   300568694071


Edit: now it's relisted.  Never mind.

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #141 on: June 18, 2011, 08:19:43 PM »
Some au3000 and London coin co. "sold" items in the last couple of months are suspect.

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #142 on: June 22, 2011, 07:26:02 PM »
4 coin Phoenix and Dragon set: 2 oz. gold + 2 oz. silver + 1/10 oz. gold + 22 gm silver =

$688,623.00

http://www.hosane.com/productdetail.asp?auctionid=S11066&pieceCode=7907&Page=8

Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
http://www.pandacollector.com

P.S. Special thanks to Poconopenn for explaining the special nature of this set to me.

« Last Edit: June 22, 2011, 07:32:51 PM by PandaCollector »

Offline dragonfan

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #143 on: June 23, 2011, 06:13:08 AM »
Can you share, or Poconopenn, the special nature of this to users. Special thanks

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #144 on: June 23, 2011, 06:51:56 AM »
I was hoping you would ask! These are 1989 coins, not the familiar 1990 Dragon and Phoenix. Total population of sets: 10.

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Peter Anthony
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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #145 on: June 23, 2011, 07:41:58 AM »
Outstanding! Yes WOW! Thanks to share
I would add: Power & Wisdom

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #146 on: June 24, 2011, 07:55:25 PM »
I am very surprised about the following, I missed something??
_http://english.zhaoonline.com/detail/auction-1056218-detail.shtml

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #147 on: June 24, 2011, 09:44:42 PM »
I am very surprised about the following, I missed something??
_http://english.zhaoonline.com/detail/auction-1056218-detail.shtml

This coin has been trading close to that recently and the photo looks very nice so the price isn't startling.

Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
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Offline pandaguy212

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #148 on: June 24, 2011, 10:26:12 PM »
1998 1oz SD Gold Panda - NGC MS69 by PandaAmerica - sold for $4,053 on ebay  :scared:

Item - 330578083152

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #149 on: June 24, 2011, 11:58:15 PM »
1998 1oz SD Gold Panda - NGC MS69 by PandaAmerica - sold for $4,053 on ebay  :scared:

Item - 330578083152
I don't understand why the Wow!  Another 1998 Small Date 1 oz in MS69 sold for $3950 on 6/23 too, and $3,600 on 6/19, and you can Buy One Now for $3975 and $5985.
Am I missing something?

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #150 on: June 25, 2011, 04:12:01 AM »
Hey, some big 5 oz scarcer silver pucks are "going Large":  on RCC, a site I see leading trends by just a little,
1987 Vault Protector, Mintage 999, $2,550 for MS66, about a 100% increase in a month, sold instantly!
1987 God of Longevity, Mintage under 2000, $3,750 ! MS69, about a 100% increase in a month, sold instantly!
I measure demand as a function of how fast a coin sells, too.
These have been my two favorite large silver medals. Beautiful, rare, and now, recognized.
Have you noticed, too, that 1987 and 1988 seem to be the zenith of beautiful rare gold and silver medals? Something must have been going on, then. Not just China, other counties too.
U/B
« Last Edit: June 25, 2011, 04:22:06 AM by Underbidder »

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #151 on: June 26, 2011, 05:17:45 AM »
Do you know what was the market price, roughly, 5 to 6 years ago for this bunch of very rare coins? Just curious.
4 coin Phoenix and Dragon set: 2 oz. gold + 2 oz. silver + 1/10 oz. gold + 22 gm silver =

$688,623.00

http://www.hosane.com/productdetail.asp?auctionid=S11066&pieceCode=7907&Page=8

Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
http://www.pandacollector.com

P.S. Special thanks to Poconopenn for explaining the special nature of this set to me.



Offline poconopenn

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #152 on: June 26, 2011, 12:56:48 PM »
drangonfan,

You can find more information in the following forum discussion.

http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=580.0

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #153 on: June 26, 2011, 01:42:57 PM »
Thank you very much Poconopenn
drangonfan,

You can find more information in the following forum discussion.

http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=580.0

Offline Grip

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #154 on: June 26, 2011, 05:55:54 PM »
In case anyone is wondering what the high grade 2000 gold Panda mirror fractionals are selling for...
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=200620699002&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #157 on: June 30, 2011, 02:53:09 PM »
What is the price range for a 1998 1/10th oz Gold Panda Coin?

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #158 on: June 30, 2011, 03:02:25 PM »
One sold on eBay for $3,650.

Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
http://www.pandacollector.com

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #159 on: June 30, 2011, 03:49:38 PM »
One sold on eBay for $3,650.

Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
http://www.pandacollector.com
....wasnt that in jan & raw? I am eager to see what a 69, 98' LD 1/10 would bring now :)
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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #160 on: June 30, 2011, 04:11:15 PM »
....wasnt that in jan & raw? I am eager to see what a 69, 98' LD 1/10 would bring now :)

It was an ungraded coin sold on May 11. A MS-69 might well bring more.

Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #163 on: June 30, 2011, 07:28:55 PM »
This was a steal- assuming the buyer holds on through the fiat cash reset. I bet Nick at MR bought it...

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #164 on: June 30, 2011, 07:34:46 PM »
This was a steal- I bet Nick at MR bought it...

I would bet that, too.

Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #166 on: June 30, 2011, 10:00:18 PM »
 :w00t: :w00t: :w00t: :w00t: :w00t:
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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #167 on: June 30, 2011, 10:01:14 PM »
Is this the record for a 1983 Silver Panda?

http://cgi.ebay.com/1983-NGC-PF69UCAM-CHINA-10-YUAN-PROOF-SILVER-PANDA-/330570314205?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4cf786b1dd#ht_6570wt_1139


It is as far as I know. I was hoping to add this to my collection but the bidding got too rich for me. I know KonaJim sold one recently after listing it on ebay. He had it listed for $7888 starting but then ended the auction early. Wonder how much he got for it.


Offline mrslick32

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #168 on: July 01, 2011, 12:25:13 AM »
The 1983 silver panda mentioned previously has a very bright luster and excellent strike. I am not surprised that it sold for a huge price. The buyer is paying for quality on a scarce and beautiful coin.

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #169 on: July 01, 2011, 11:53:48 PM »
1984 China S10Y Olympic Volleyball NGC PF66 Matte

BIN:  US $5,850.00
 
Price is in or out of the ballpark?

http://cgi.ebay.com/1984-China-S10Y-Olympic-Volleyball-NGC-PF66-Matte-Rare-/220807582905

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #170 on: July 01, 2011, 11:58:26 PM »
1984 China S10Y Olympic Volleyball NGC PF66 Matte

BIN:  US $5,850.00
 
Price is in or out of the ballpark?

http://cgi.ebay.com/1984-China-S10Y-Olympic-Volleyball-NGC-PF66-Matte-Rare-/220807582905


Out of the park, but not by a mile.

Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
http://www.pandacollector.com

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #171 on: July 02, 2011, 12:06:04 AM »
Given the current trends on olympic and games theme coins, these price could be in the ballpark in the near term?

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #172 on: July 02, 2011, 12:32:48 AM »
You never know, but this coin is only a PF-66. That's not a grade that usually attracts rabid bidding.

Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #173 on: July 02, 2011, 12:46:47 AM »
I'm currently having two coins coming back from NCS and NGC.  Any idea of the current price and future price (let say about 1 year)?

1984 23rd Summer Olympic Games:  PF69 Matte

1986 13th FIFA World Cup Mexico:  PF68 Matte

http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=1115.210 (bottom of posting)

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #174 on: July 02, 2011, 03:37:42 AM »
A pair of 1986 World Cup 5 Yuan coins recently sold for $360. They were ungraded but looked more like 65s or even 64s to me. The Olympic coins are covered in the new Pricepedia which is nearly ready to be sent out. It is possible that the older Olympic coins will get a little boost next year from the London games.

Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
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Offline smbgaiden

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #175 on: July 02, 2011, 01:20:16 PM »
Wow of the day in an auction that I lost:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=130522985189

7 sets of Chinese Bronze Archaelogical Finds Commemoratives 5Y - $7101

Wows me for the price and for the size of the hoard that suddenly came on line.

Seems like these got flipped quickly for $8,533.
http://cgi.ebay.com/7-China-Bronze-Age-Silver-4-Coin-Proof-Sets-1990-1992-/180681928500?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2a117b6f34

Though I can not be sure, because the seller did not have their feedback for the purchase from the original link. The original seller was in Illinois, this seller was in Illinois, and now a single set is listed from namchong in Illinois.

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #176 on: July 02, 2011, 06:37:14 PM »
China 1985 Silver ANA Great Wall Medal Mintage 500

Currently at US $2,550.00 with 4 more days left.

I'm kicking myself for not getting one or two when it was around US$200 each about 2 or 3 years ago.  Oh well.  Cannot buy them all  :biggrin:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=300572783614

I see that our famous retractor o***i is getting on the action.
o***i (428)
Bid retractions:  13
Bid retractions (6 months):  89

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #177 on: July 20, 2011, 06:06:16 PM »
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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #178 on: July 20, 2011, 06:13:00 PM »
It appears that the 1/2 oz is more scarce and carry a higher price than the other 82?

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #179 on: July 20, 2011, 06:13:45 PM »
Seems perfectly reasonable to me. First year of the panda series, original mintage was only 13k (who knows how many are left), and it sold for less than double the melt value.

Offline Grip

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #180 on: July 20, 2011, 06:26:47 PM »
This was a great buy! You don't see many 1/2's come up, much less in a 69 grade. Get any 68-69's in the 1 oz/1/2 oz you can. These are getting more and more attention....

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #181 on: July 20, 2011, 07:23:51 PM »
These are rarer in grade than population estimates show. Most of the 1982 MS69 coins in the registry were submitted in hoards by Panda America and others years ago. As someone who actually submits coins I can't emphasize enough how rare 69 grades are for 82. Submitting them is frustrating. Buying them already graded takes out the guesswork and risk. The premium is well deserved for this year's Panda Half.

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #182 on: July 21, 2011, 12:33:08 AM »
The 1983 Silver Panda I had listed sold privately for $ 8,000.00.  I have two more being graded.  I recently sold a 1982 gold panda 1/2, grade MS69 for $ 2,400.00 to a good customer.  I will be getting some more 1983 silver pandas back from NGC and also a 1982 1 oz. gold panda.

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #183 on: July 21, 2011, 11:29:37 AM »
Thanx Jim for keeping us updated on market prices!  :thumbup1:
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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #184 on: July 21, 2011, 07:29:06 PM »
Some sellers are just ridiculous in listing the price.

1985 China ANA 94th Anniversary Silver Medal

CA$11,999.99 (US$12,675.60)

http://cgi.ebay.com/1985-China-ANA-94th-Anniversary-Silver-Medal-/110718483246

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #185 on: July 21, 2011, 07:40:43 PM »
I was just viewing that listing - yeah, agreed its an amazing ask price, last ones went for 2-3K?  One of the rarest, low mintage silver medals.
Looks to be in extraordinary condition, so if you HAVE to have one...
Seller often asks high prices, but he has very nice coins!

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #186 on: July 21, 2011, 08:08:37 PM »
Love this thread.... figured I would revive it

http://cgi.ebay.com/1982-China-Gold-Panda-1-2-oz-PCGS-MS69-/300578309316?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item45fbdd04c4

1/2 oz 82 pcgs69 $3100  :w00t:

My dad bought one 1982 69 set from that same seller for $9500. They had it up for $12,000 for the longest time and just listed another one for $10,000. I consider the 1 Oz. in a 69 to be a $5000 coin every day of the week, and with that 1/2 Oz. 69 bringing $3000 the whole set for a little under $10,000 strikes me as a pretty good buy.

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #187 on: July 21, 2011, 08:40:12 PM »
Also thought this was fairly strong:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=120749906875#ht_500wt_1413

Crappy picture + sub-par grade going for $3200.

tamo42

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #188 on: July 21, 2011, 08:46:32 PM »
Yeah, I was surprised that sold for what it did considering the picture.

Offline pandaguy212

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #189 on: July 22, 2011, 02:20:14 PM »
1982 1/2 oz gold panda - Unsealed - $2300 - ebay - 280713447283  :w00t:

Offline ghostrider80811

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #190 on: July 22, 2011, 02:38:49 PM »
My dad bought one 1982 69 set from that same seller for $9500. They had it up for $12,000 for the longest time and just listed another one for $10,000. I consider the 1 Oz. in a 69 to be a $5000 coin every day of the week, and with that 1/2 Oz. 69 bringing $3000 the whole set for a little under $10,000 strikes me as a pretty good buy.

Yeah, Your dad is smart to be buying the 82 Gold MS69 set.  If I had additional income I would have snagged the other, lol!  The funny part is I always tell myself to have spare cash lying around for a nice opportunity BUT I always give in to buying something else.  =X 

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #191 on: July 22, 2011, 02:39:47 PM »
Yeah, Your dad is smart to be buying the 82 Gold MS69 set.  If I had additional income I would have snagged the other, lol!  The funny part is I always tell myself to have spare cash lying around for a nice opportunity BUT I always give in to buying something else.  =X 

Don't worry too much about it. They're all nice opportunities :).

Offline Straitssettlementshop

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #192 on: July 22, 2011, 10:48:02 PM »
This one must be the real WOW of the day considering if is a genuine sales.

1988 CHINA DRAGON 10 YUAN SILVER PROOF COIN PCGS PR69 sold for USD2199.95 or GBP1350.00 by The London Coin Company.

Click here : http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1988-CHINA-DRAGON-10-YUAN-SILVER-PROOF-COIN-PCGS-PR69-/400219976551?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5d2ef83367




Offline Pandora

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #193 on: July 22, 2011, 11:32:48 PM »
I am in real awe...wow!

1993 Chinese Panda Gold Coin Proof Set - sold for $4550!

Who says slowdown is over!  :blink:

Offline Straitssettlementshop

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #194 on: July 22, 2011, 11:38:47 PM »
I am in real awe...wow!
1993 Chinese Panda Gold Coin Proof Set - sold for $4550!
Who says slowdown is over!  :blink:

If the seller willing to sell it to "worldwide" it would probably end up in Malaysia.  ;)

Offline KonaJim

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #195 on: July 23, 2011, 12:36:01 AM »
I would be very suspect of how well that 1993 proof set grades.  You can tell the owner did not understand how to handle coins.  ( And I don't even think he was a European) :001_smile:

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #196 on: July 23, 2011, 02:42:56 AM »
I would be very suspect of how well that 1993 proof set grades.  You can tell the owner did not understand how to handle coins.  ( And I don't even think he was a European) :001_smile:

Very well said :-)

Offline PandaCollector

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #197 on: July 23, 2011, 07:51:16 AM »
This is a good example of how condition can influence auction prices. While the price seems low it appears the coins were removed from their capsules and placed bare on a scanner to take the photo.

Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
http://www.pandacollector.com

Offline ghostrider80811

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #198 on: July 23, 2011, 09:54:05 AM »
This one must be the real WOW of the day considering if is a genuine sales.

1988 CHINA DRAGON 10 YUAN SILVER PROOF COIN PCGS PR69 sold for USD2199.95 or GBP1350.00 by The London Coin Company.

Click here : http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1988-CHINA-DRAGON-10-YUAN-SILVER-PROOF-COIN-PCGS-PR69-/400219976551?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5d2ef83367






Man, I hope this isnt a shill bid =X

Offline Panda Halves

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #200 on: July 24, 2011, 11:58:19 AM »
First thing I wanted to know when I saw that, was if it was THAT seller.  There have been questions raised lately if sales really went through, as there were some apparent sales then relistings of same item.

Second, assuming legit, then the price makes sense for that buyer out there with means,  whose goal it is to make perhaps the only set of  MS70 1 oz in the world?  Pretty rare and a uniquely valuable set I'd say.

Offline Grip

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #201 on: July 24, 2011, 06:36:20 PM »
Sold...

Offline adamc4

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #202 on: July 25, 2011, 01:56:32 PM »
Not really a "wow", but:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=170668394200#ht_977wt_1396

1982 1 Oz. gold and 1983 1 Oz. silver coins in a 68 or 69 are being bid up pretty competitively.

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #203 on: July 28, 2011, 02:59:04 AM »
OMG.. :w00t:...WOW... Anybody see this?  What is right about this picture?.  yowza, holy frijoles, Mama Mia!


http://cgi.ebay.com/1998-CHINA-RARE-1-20th-oz-GOLD-PANDA-SMALL-DATE-/330594202191?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4cf8f3324f#ht_3765wt_689




« Last Edit: July 28, 2011, 03:08:07 AM by Underbidder »

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #204 on: July 28, 2011, 03:10:16 AM »
If a certain seller we all knew bought this, it'd now be a $99,000 coin!  LOL  :biggrin:

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #205 on: July 28, 2011, 09:22:15 AM »
That coin was under priced. The previous sale was for $1526.

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #206 on: July 28, 2011, 11:05:38 AM »
OMG.. :w00t:...WOW... Anybody see this?  What is right about this picture?.  yowza, holy frijoles, Mama Mia!


http://cgi.ebay.com/1998-CHINA-RARE-1-20th-oz-GOLD-PANDA-SMALL-DATE-/330594202191?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4cf8f3324f#ht_3765wt_689

Picture shows a large date 1998 gold panda?






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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #207 on: July 28, 2011, 11:54:22 AM »
That's it.  It was described as Small Date, but picture clearly shows Large Date. Not only way more valuable, but also a labeling error. That $1526 Tamo was for a Small Date.

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #208 on: July 28, 2011, 12:30:43 PM »
Oh, good catch. There may be a return in Nick's future.

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #209 on: July 28, 2011, 12:34:36 PM »
Oh, good catch. There may be a return in Nick's future.

Yup, they yanked it back, saying it was all a mistake, no such coin for sale...
Despite their good reputation, they have done this before in the past, of which I have first hand experience. Shameful.

Offline Birdman

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #210 on: July 30, 2011, 08:28:17 AM »
Demand is strong for the microdate.  $3000 for MS69.

http://cgi.ebay.com/1995-China-Panda-10-Yuan-Small-Twig-Micro-Date-NGC-MS69-/260817422371?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3cb9ee0823

To think that somebody probably bought this coin for less than ten bucks in 1995.  Wow.

Offline adamc4

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #211 on: July 30, 2011, 12:20:43 PM »
To think that somebody probably bought this coin for less than ten bucks in 1995.  Wow.

Or to think somebody bought it for less than $100 last year

Offline mrslick32

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #212 on: July 30, 2011, 02:14:21 PM »
The coin looks really nice and shiny. I also love the design of the 1995 panda. If I could afford it, I would have also bought it.

Offline Birdman

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #213 on: August 02, 2011, 02:50:57 PM »
This is not a sale, but to see that someone would even have the courage to ask $10,000 for a silver 1991 Panda is remarkable...Am I missing something?

http://cgi.ebay.com/1991-10Yn-China-Silver-Panda-Lg-Date-PCGS-MS70-POP-1-/130544539767?_trksid=p4340.m185&_trkparms=algo%3DSIC.NPJS%26its%3DI%26itu%3DUA%26otn%3D5%26pmod%3D160619312344%26ps%3D63%26clkid%3D1782443155979690709

Condition is important, but to ask over 33 times the price of a recent sale MS69 for an MS70?

Offline Obsidian

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #214 on: August 02, 2011, 04:51:23 PM »
A seller can ASK anything they want.  No buyer will be crazy enough to pay it!

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #215 on: August 02, 2011, 04:57:56 PM »
A seller can ASK anything they want.  No buyer will be crazy enough to pay it!

That may be the next "WOW" of the day". LOL!

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #216 on: August 02, 2011, 10:28:40 PM »
This is not a sale, but to see that someone would even have the courage to ask $10,000 for a silver 1991 Panda is remarkable...Am I missing something?

http://cgi.ebay.com/1991-10Yn-China-Silver-Panda-Lg-Date-PCGS-MS70-POP-1-/130544539767?_trksid=p4340.m185&_trkparms=algo%3DSIC.NPJS%26its%3DI%26itu%3DUA%26otn%3D5%26pmod%3D160619312344%26ps%3D63%26clkid%3D1782443155979690709

Condition is important, but to ask over 33 times the price of a recent sale MS69 for an MS70?

I know the seller! LOL  I told him that was waaayyyyyy too much $$$ to ask. He didnt like my view :)  2nd or 3rd time he has had that up for sale
EMERGING MARKET GROUP  
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GO TO my Ebay Click: http://stores.ebay.com/worldcollectibles310

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Offline PandaOrLunar

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #217 on: August 03, 2011, 12:18:20 AM »
So what explanation did the seller gave for posting at that high price?

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #218 on: August 03, 2011, 11:37:57 AM »
So what explanation did the seller gave for posting at that high price?

extremely low pop reports
EMERGING MARKET GROUP  
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Long Beach Expo
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DECEMBER: Macau/H.K.

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GO TO my Ebay Click: http://stores.ebay.com/worldcollectibles310

EMERGING MARKET GROUP

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Offline larrydreher

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #219 on: August 03, 2011, 12:47:19 PM »
extremely low pop reports

The days of PCGS coins having a more strict grading criteria than NGC are over.  PCGS is turning out more early date panda 70's than NGC especially given the fact that they grade far fewer than NGC.  Given other issues with PCGS like poorly sealed slabs and the lower value guaranty of authenticity, I predict that over time the premium they have enjoyed will turn into a discount for modern chinese coins.

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #220 on: August 03, 2011, 01:10:36 PM »
I don't understand PCGS' limitation on their guarantee at all. It seems counterproductive.

Offline Birdman

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #221 on: August 03, 2011, 03:44:38 PM »
I don't understand PCGS' limitation on their guarantee at all. It seems counterproductive.

If PCGS limits their liability, then if they slab a counterfeit of a $10,000 Chinese coin, they are only responsible for writing a $1000 compensation check to the person who later buys the slab and discovers the problem, not the full $10,000 replacement value...  At least that is how I understand it.  They are covering their butt.  It is "productive" for them, unless people send their coins to NGC instead.

Offline fractalfate

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #222 on: August 03, 2011, 04:33:49 PM »
I would like to add that it seems PCGS is much more inconsistent in their grading than NGC. I've seen several 70's that look like 69's and 69's that look like 68's, and vice versa, with PCGS. Although no grading system is perfect, I believe consistency is absolutely paramount. Along those same quality lines, several comments about the lack of environmental protection (specifically openness to atmospheric gases) have been made in regards to PCGS vs. NGC holders... Is there any objective evidence of this available, or is this just an opinion?

Offline mrslick32

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #223 on: August 03, 2011, 05:16:00 PM »
If PCGS limits their liability, then if they slab a counterfeit of a $10,000 Chinese coin, they are only responsible for writing a $1000 compensation check to the person who later buys the slab and discovers the problem, not the full $10,000 replacement value...  At least that is how I understand it.  They are covering their butt.  It is "productive" for them, unless people send their coins to NGC instead.

In my opinion, this also implies that PCGS is not confident enough in their expertise in certifying the authenticity of Chinese coins. This is not a big issue for me personally since I prefer to use NGC over PCGS anyway, but it's not good for people who like PCGS graded Chinese coins.

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #224 on: August 03, 2011, 08:47:41 PM »
I meant I don't understand their motivations. I get how the process works. It seems worse than useless since it makes me as a collector believe they aren't willing to back up their certifications.

Offline honestgold

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #225 on: August 03, 2011, 09:42:53 PM »
I thought PCGS is more consistent. They might be slow with the picture stuff.

NGC69 quality varies a lot. Look at the platinum pandas. rubbed panda nose/forehead. Some has it, some don't.

Offline pandaguy212

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #226 on: August 03, 2011, 09:45:21 PM »
I think it depends individual to individual - some prefer PCGS some prefer NGC. They both have pros and cons. Although, PCGS coins always sell for more compared to their NGC counterparts in the same grade - we can look at ebay recent sales for proof.


Offline Panda Halves

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #227 on: August 03, 2011, 10:38:07 PM »
Let's be careful when talking about absolutes. Many recent PCGS auctions look like shams to me.
I track Panda Halves like a hawk.... here are two actual auctions that prove your absolute statement wrong.
1/2 PCGS 1986 MS69 Panda: (ended July 25)
$885 + $5 shipping = $890 delivered
http://cgi.ebay.com/China-1986-1-2-oz-Gold-Panda-PCGS-MS-69-/190557338968?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2c5e1a3d58#ht_500wt_922
1/2 NGC 1986 MS69 Panda: (ended July 22)
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=400229134101&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT#ht_5981wt_922
$1061 + free shipping = $1061 delivered
The price difference between this PCGS piece and the NCS conserved NGC piece is $171.
This is a 19% difference to the favor of NGC.
I imagine other examples abound but here is just one from the panda half side.

Offline honestgold

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #228 on: August 04, 2011, 11:34:43 AM »
You cannot use this 86 panda as a reference.
As for panda, I don't see much difference in price. There were PCGS counterfeits and scared people off.
Other coins, the difference is more apparent.

Offline Panda Halves

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #229 on: August 04, 2011, 11:56:05 AM »
I think it depends individual to individual - some prefer PCGS some prefer NGC. They both have pros and cons. Although, PCGS coins always sell for more compared to their NGC counterparts in the same grade - we can look at ebay recent sales for proof.



You made a blanket statement that isn't true. I simply proved it false with what I collect. 19% is quite a difference in price. I am sure other examples abound but they aren't my specialty. Pandas do matter, especially the 1/2 gold ones and I can use whatever example I wish.

Offline honestgold

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #230 on: August 04, 2011, 12:40:56 PM »
I never paid much attention to 1/2 and 1/4, I thought very few are interested in those. Should have gotten a full set when I had the chance.

Will the 69/70 population increase significantly in the future? I am very hesitant to break the coin out of the original seal.

Offline adamc4

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #231 on: August 06, 2011, 12:29:45 PM »
Very strong bidding for the 2000 1 Oz. gold frosted Panda:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=150640048954#ht_1279wt_1062

Considering in MS68 it's a solid $2000 coin and in MS69 it's a solid $2500 coin.

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #232 on: August 06, 2011, 12:36:44 PM »
Jeez,  for cryin' out loud, what's it made of,  GOLD ?

Must be charging extra for the crack.

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #233 on: August 06, 2011, 01:08:48 PM »
Jeez,  for cryin' out loud, what's it made of,  GOLD ?

Must be charging extra for the crack.

Well the population for cracked capsule coins is really low so who knows, it'll probably be a $10,000 coin next year.

Offline Pandora

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #234 on: August 06, 2011, 01:40:08 PM »
Well the population for cracked capsule coins is really low so who knows, it'll probably be a $10,000 coin next year.

Rumor has it, NGC has started adding capsule cracks grades in its label. This crack looks like will grade 70.

Offline honestgold

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #235 on: August 06, 2011, 06:11:21 PM »
price not bad. mostly likely MS69 in double packaging

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #236 on: August 24, 2011, 07:01:01 PM »
Take a look at what this 1 gram gold Dragon & Phoenix coin brought. At first I thought it was for a lot of 10 coins but that doesn't seem to be the case. Don't forget to add the juice to the hammer price. We are really not in Kansas anymore.

http://www.stacksbowers.com/Auctions/AuctionLot.aspx?LotID=242181

Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
http://www.pandacollector.com


Offline pandaguy212

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #237 on: August 24, 2011, 07:09:32 PM »
Does anyone know what the % buyer fee was for this auction?

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #238 on: August 24, 2011, 07:17:15 PM »
Holy crap. the last one on ebay sold for $450

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #239 on: August 24, 2011, 07:18:30 PM »
It looks like someone was paying for the low cert # of 126.

Offline mcc168

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #240 on: August 24, 2011, 07:19:39 PM »
18% buyer fee, but you can get 3% (15%) discount if paid by Cashier's Check or wire.

Offline comeaux

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #241 on: August 24, 2011, 07:34:18 PM »
That is a nice coin but $1,200 for a one gram coin with mintage of 50K ???

I would never spend this much on a coin I need a microscope to see it ...  :laugh: 

Offline PandaCollector

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #242 on: August 24, 2011, 07:42:15 PM »
It looks like someone was paying for the low cert # of 126.

It's not that low - or are you just kidding?

Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
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Offline Obsidian

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #243 on: August 24, 2011, 07:48:35 PM »
How many of these coins have you seen for sale?  Do you think the mintage was really 50k?  Or how many were used in jewelry due to the size.  As a whole the dragon and phoenix coins performed quite well at the auction.

Offline comeaux

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #244 on: August 24, 2011, 08:01:57 PM »
The price difference between this PCGS piece and the NCS conserved NGC piece is $171.
This is a 19% difference to the favor of NGC.

I have to agree with Panda Halves in this case ...

PCGS graded coins do seem to command a higher premium on many varieties of coins but when it comes to Chinese Panda’s, I have seen on many occasions that NGC graded coins are selling for more than the identically graded PCGS  coin or at the very least, selling for about the same price.

I don’t know how others feel but in my opinion NGC seems more familiar with Chinese Panda’s and all of its varieties. Even though in the past NGC did make some mistakes on such coins as the 1995 STSD but at least they were acknowledging the variety, PCGS was just recognizing the year only and not the specific varieties.
 
PCGS now does recognize the varieties but I think NGC initiated this process.     

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #245 on: August 24, 2011, 08:03:37 PM »
It's not that low - or are you just kidding?


I wasn't kidding at all actually, but it's the only thing I could figure since the next lot was the same coin with a higher CoA # and went for $300

Offline comeaux

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #246 on: August 24, 2011, 09:00:42 PM »
the next lot was the same coin with a higher CoA # and went for $300
I think you are right tamo42 ... higher COA number coupled with a smarter buyer/bidder, now he can use the extra $900 he saved to buy a microscope to see his purchase  :laugh:

Offline exchange

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #247 on: August 24, 2011, 10:00:53 PM »
Very strong bidding for the 2000 1 Oz. gold frosted Panda:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=150640048954#ht_1279wt_1062

Considering in MS68 it's a solid $2000 coin and in MS69 it's a solid $2500 coin.

and double sealed a $2550 coin. not bad.

exchange

Offline exchange

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #248 on: August 24, 2011, 10:03:13 PM »
It looks like someone was paying for the low cert # of 126.

Without any "8's", the buyer cannot be Chinese :)

exchange

Offline Obsidian

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #249 on: August 24, 2011, 10:09:42 PM »
The next lot was actually the 5 yean silver (PF67), not the 10 gold I think.  Of course the price paid was still high.

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #250 on: August 24, 2011, 10:55:16 PM »
Ah, that would make more sense!

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #251 on: August 24, 2011, 11:04:34 PM »
double sealed a $2550 coin. not bad.
Not trying to be cynical at all but hopefully not a "resealed" double seal and a previous MS66  :001_smile:

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #252 on: August 24, 2011, 11:39:35 PM »
18% buyer fee, but you can get 3% (15%) discount if paid by Cashier's Check or wire.

yes, but not for the HK auction  its all 19.5%!!!!!!!    how do people put these things in auction!
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Offline peng_you

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Offline poconopenn

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #254 on: August 28, 2011, 11:44:55 PM »
http://www.ebay.com/itm/320747879646?ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1431.l2649
Peng_you

IMO, this is a right price for this 1980 mint set. Stack's & Bower auction had a similar set last week, but much lower grade, sold for $711. All three Cu-Ni Jaio coins in this set are in excellent condition, very hard to find in this condition. 

Offline fractalfate

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #255 on: August 29, 2011, 12:11:11 AM »
I was the jerk who bought that 'microscopic' PF69 gold P&D off eBay after I saw the pre-bids days before the auction going above $400. Just received it in the post yesterday, and I have to say that it is an amazing little coin, with heavy stress on the 'little.' Little. Little. Little. Fun to say... Anywho, I like to get my kids involved with the collecting, and this bad boy was an instant favorite. They have a good eye. Get one if you can.

Offline PandaOrLunar

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #256 on: August 29, 2011, 12:12:01 AM »
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=380362987947

CHINA 1980 OLYMPIC COPPER 8-COINS PROOF SET

US $1,501.00

I'm amazed at how much a blue package can bring.

Offline aragog

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #257 on: August 29, 2011, 03:22:02 AM »
http://www.ebay.de/itm/380362987947?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649

Not a WOW, but the price is rising steadily up

Oh, the listing was already here. If you consider that 4 piedfords were sold just for 3500 euro, this price is high, but the chances that the coins are in great condition are high for packed coins as well.

Offline adamc4

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #258 on: August 29, 2011, 09:03:40 PM »
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1997-1-10oz-Gold-China-Unicorn-NGC-PF69-/130566952583#ht_1671wt_1270

1997 1/10 Oz. gold proof Unicorn PF69 for $1575. Previously a solid $1300 coin. If one has a number of silver cultural coins, has zero exposure to Unicorns, and wants to get their feet wet I'd suggest a 1/10 Oz. gold PF69 set rather than a silver PF69 set.

Offline adamc4

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #259 on: September 03, 2011, 03:18:38 PM »
I cannot BELIEVE my dad and I missed this coin:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/2000-1-4oz-panda-gold-coin-mirror-face-/250884952010#ht_1690wt_1037

2000 1/4 Oz. gold mirror Panda for $3000

While the coin does look like it has some rubbing/scratches and is outside of the pouch... it's hard to argue with any fractional gold mirrored Panda. The 1/4 in a 69 has got to be at least a $6000 coin.

Offline exchange

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #260 on: September 03, 2011, 03:23:11 PM »
I cannot BELIEVE my dad and I missed this coin:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/2000-1-4oz-panda-gold-coin-mirror-face-/250884952010#ht_1690wt_1037

2000 1/4 Oz. gold mirror Panda for $3000

While the coin does look like it has some rubbing/scratches and is outside of the pouch... it's hard to argue with any fractional gold mirrored Panda. The 1/4 in a 69 has got to be at least a $6000 coin.

at $12,000 an ounce missing it might of been a good thing.

exchange

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #261 on: September 03, 2011, 03:29:45 PM »


What would be the value if it ends up being, say MS60?

I think perhaps this is the type of coin better left ungraded.... Leave it up to the rarity itself, and maybe left up to the imagination of the buyer to determine value.



Offline adamc4

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #262 on: September 03, 2011, 03:32:48 PM »
Premium over melt is a poor way to value super scare coins like the 1998 LD and 2000 Mirror fractionals.

Also Underbidder, I completely agree with the idea of leaving it ungraded.

Offline ghostrider80811

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #263 on: September 03, 2011, 08:20:41 PM »
I cannot BELIEVE my dad and I missed this coin:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/2000-1-4oz-panda-gold-coin-mirror-face-/250884952010#ht_1690wt_1037

2000 1/4 Oz. gold mirror Panda for $3000

While the coin does look like it has some rubbing/scratches and is outside of the pouch... it's hard to argue with any fractional gold mirrored Panda. The 1/4 in a 69 has got to be at least a $6000 coin.

Yeah, they weren't lying when they say," you snooze you lose"  lol.  Whoever got that coin must be happy.  I know I would. 

Offline KonaJim

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #264 on: September 03, 2011, 08:23:47 PM »
I don't think it was a great deal.  It's a damaged coin.  I could have bought it, but passed on it.  It's like a Ferrari that's been in a head on accident.  Yeah, it's a Ferrari, but who cares. Just my opinion.  Wait for a quality coin.

Offline Pandaguy

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #265 on: September 03, 2011, 08:59:38 PM »
I agree with Konajim. I too have passed on rare coins due to their poor condition. I don't want to tie up cash in hopes of selling at a future date to a buyer who will accept a defective coin. Patience is the key. Wait for a better example!

Offline fractalfate

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #266 on: September 03, 2011, 10:56:20 PM »
Absolutely agree with above. I saw the auction while active and passed. All good things come to those who wait.

Offline adamc4

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Offline adamc4

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #268 on: September 07, 2011, 10:46:51 PM »
http://www.ebay.com/itm/270810273117#ht_698wt_1270

1997 Silver Proof Unicorn NGC PF69 for $660. Wow.

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #269 on: September 07, 2011, 10:54:35 PM »
Nice!

Offline adamc4

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #270 on: September 08, 2011, 12:12:35 AM »
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1999-Large-Date-Serif-1-Silver-Chinese-Panda-NGC-MS-68-/220843060235#ht_2586wt_1037

Another 1999 1 Oz. silver Panda LD w/ Serif bargain. Rarer than the 2000 Mirror but going for less than half the price.

Offline Panda Halves

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #271 on: September 08, 2011, 12:16:29 AM »
Is the 1999 Serif rally rarer than the mirror?
For serifs I like this one:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1999-1-2-oz-Large-Date-Serif-China-Gold-Panda-PCGS-MS69-/290607733763?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item43a9921c03#ht_500wt_922
Shame it is in a PCGS holder, you could submit it as a crossover.
A bargain at 10x a silver MS68 price....
Especially if you believe 5k and above coins are going to move up  :001_smile:

Offline adamc4

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #272 on: September 08, 2011, 12:27:39 AM »
For silver, Peter believes so. Especially when it comes to finding the LD w/ Serif coin in a 69. The Micro Date and Mirrored got all the attention while the LD w/ Serif languished.

I'd rather spend $6000 on a full 69 early 90's set than an individual 1/2 Oz. coin. There's a place for rare/scarce coins like that in every collection but no longer room for them in mine.

Offline wyldkatt

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #273 on: September 11, 2011, 12:13:39 PM »

Offline Panda Halves

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #274 on: September 11, 2011, 12:41:48 PM »
Nice 82/83 set. I like the original invoice.
Note the 1999 1/2 Serif PCGS MS69 discussed above is sold.
I wonder if that 1982 is the "mirror variety" discussed in the Chinese article.
Does anyone know the difference for mirror or long bamboo 1982 pandas?

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #275 on: September 11, 2011, 12:53:04 PM »
How can a 1982 be "Mirror" any differently than it already is?

Maybe frosting was omitted from the temple?  Or maybe something was lost in translation...?

Offline adamc4

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #276 on: September 11, 2011, 12:56:11 PM »
I'm with Underbidder on being confused about the luster variety.

The only variety I'm aware of is the differences in the bamboo shoot. 

Offline Panda Halves

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #277 on: September 11, 2011, 01:09:27 PM »
What are the bamboo shoot differences and which is rarer? Examples?

Offline adamc4

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #278 on: September 11, 2011, 01:50:14 PM »
To be honest all I know is there is a significant variety, but I do not know how to spot it. I bet we'll be learning more and more about both 1) more varieties and 2) domestic Chinese population figures when Huang Rui Yong publishes his book next summer.

P.S. I'm pretty sure Arif could explain to you the 1982 varieties, I just haven't talked with him about it.

Offline PandaCollector

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #279 on: September 11, 2011, 02:09:51 PM »
To be honest all I know is there is a significant variety, but I do not know how to spot it. I bet we'll be learning more and more about both 1) more varieties and 2) domestic Chinese population figures when Huang Rui Yong publishes his book next summer.

P.S. I'm pretty sure Arif could explain to you the 1982 varieties, I just haven't talked with him about it.

I should have photos of the two varieties in the next edition of the Gold and Silver Panda Buyer's Guide (June 2012), too. I know what they look like but don't have a photo of the second one, yet.

Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
http://www.pandacollector.com

Offline adamc4

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #280 on: September 11, 2011, 02:20:02 PM »
Interesting, glad to hear second edition is coming. Do you know if Huang Rui Yong will publish his book in English?

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #282 on: September 11, 2011, 02:56:22 PM »
D4ftIs that what you mean by "going fishing for a whale"???

Evidently.
At first glance I thought the 1982 must be a 1 oz to come close to the asking price.  The seller is calling the 1982 a proof, so maybe they are not up on going rates.

Offline Panda Halves

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #283 on: September 11, 2011, 02:57:44 PM »
Buyer's guide 2012 and Huang Rui Yong both hitting summer 2012.
Information overload!
This will be interesting to watch unfold.

Offline comeaux

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #284 on: September 11, 2011, 10:14:26 PM »
http://www.ebay.com/itm/220847177651?ssPageName=STRK:MEDWX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1435.l2649

I'm not sure how much "wow factor" this one is but a 1995 NGC MS69 micro date (true micro) for $1,684 is pretty cheap from the prices I have seen this coin historically sell for !!

Offline adamc4

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #285 on: September 11, 2011, 10:44:52 PM »
That's cheap relative to what previous coins have sold for, but it's currently a niche type of coin that only a few people initially caused a frenzy over. The frenzy died down and so did the prices. I like seeing these hyped coins sell at auction in comparison to private transactions. And when I say hyped, I only mean coins that have experienced a sudden surge of interest in a very short amount of time. 2000 Mirror, God of War & Wealth, Pagodas, Micro Date. I doubt prices go much lower than $1500... it is the rarest silver BU Panda after all.

If someone is looking for rare silver BU Pandas I bet you could get the top three (Micro, LD w/ Serif, Mirror) in 69 all for under $4000.

Offline wyldkatt

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #286 on: September 18, 2011, 06:40:15 PM »

Offline exchange

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #287 on: September 18, 2011, 07:07:41 PM »
Speaking of 2000 Mirrors,
look what this 1/10th brought.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/2000-china-panda-mirror-1-10-gold-coin-rare-PAPER-/170684825067?pt=AU_Coins2&hash=item27bd9bbdeb

WOW!!!! :w00t:

Congratulations to Konajim. Buyer from the U.S. offcourse.

exchange

Offline dragonfan

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #288 on: September 18, 2011, 08:05:50 PM »
exchange, the time when the West drive up this market is over! They have all they need to do it themselves. I noted you are in the good path.  Sooner you are in, better you will be out, if you wish. I recommend your best Chinese "thinking". Just a thought.

Offline exchange

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #289 on: September 18, 2011, 08:39:01 PM »
exchange, the time when the West drive up this market is over! They have all they need to do it themselves. I noted you are in the good path.  Sooner you are in, better you will be out, if you wish. I recommend your best Chinese "thinking". Just a thought.

Dragonfan, wise words.
Thank you,

exchange

Offline SANDAC

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #290 on: September 19, 2011, 01:15:07 AM »
http://www.ebay.com/itm/310344202142?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649

$20100! :drool: :001_tt1:

Mine is stuck in NGC in the dreaded "Scheduled for Grading" since 8/18, a month ago.  And it is the Express Tier!  I imagine they sent it out to outside expert to double check it.  I have no expection that it will have a MS grading, I'll be happy with an AU or even Detailed grading.  Just hurry up!

Offline adamc4

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #291 on: September 25, 2011, 07:31:11 PM »
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=280739504883#ht_1949wt_1270

2000 1 Oz. Gold Mirror Panda NGC MS68 for $6100

Strong price for a 68. These were going for $3300 at the beginning of this year.

Offline adamc4

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #292 on: October 05, 2011, 02:36:32 AM »
2000 gold frosted fractionals continue to be bid up:

1/10 Oz. MS69 for $425 - http://www.ebay.com/itm/2000-China-Frosted-Ring-1-10oz-999-GOLD-PANDA-NGC-MS69-Lowest-price-net-/260866630220#ht_500wt_1287
1/10 Oz. MS68 for $370 - http://www.ebay.com/itm/2000-NGC-MS68-CHINA-10-YUAN-GOLD-PANDA-FROSTED-RING-1-10OZ-/330618630714#ht_5761wt_1270

1 Oz. in MS68 has a consistent floor at $2400 in both China and America. I like to see coins that are priced the same in multiple markets.

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #293 on: October 05, 2011, 02:46:45 AM »
2000 gold frosted fractionals continue to be bid up:

1/10 Oz. MS69 for $425 - http://www.ebay.com/itm/2000-China-Frosted-Ring-1-10oz-999-GOLD-PANDA-NGC-MS69-Lowest-price-net-/260866630220#ht_500wt_1287
1/10 Oz. MS68 for $370 - http://www.ebay.com/itm/2000-NGC-MS68-CHINA-10-YUAN-GOLD-PANDA-FROSTED-RING-1-10OZ-/330618630714#ht_5761wt_1270

1 Oz. in MS68 has a consistent floor at $2400 in both China and America. I like to see coins that are priced the same in multiple markets.

Yes, the 2000 is making a place for itself. Nice design, protected in capsule, milllenium, ...I think the 1/10 oz will assert itself..

Offline juliebin

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #294 on: October 09, 2011, 12:14:50 PM »
My first post, but exciting one! Somebody got this full set of 2000 China Gold Mirror Panda (from Shanghai Mint) for $4000  :drool:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/2000-China-Panda-Gold-5-Coin-Box-Set-w-COA-Sealed-/320772576682?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4aaf8915aa

Offline adamc4

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #295 on: October 09, 2011, 12:39:50 PM »
Yeah, somebody got a ~$35,000 set for $4000. Wow.

Offline Panda Halves

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #296 on: October 09, 2011, 01:11:39 PM »
Well cared for full OMP set, boxed, with COA is probably worth quite a bit more than that even.

Offline Obsidian

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #297 on: October 09, 2011, 03:01:05 PM »
Wow is right!  Anyone on this forum pick up that deal?  Best deal I've ever seen.

Offline davidt3251

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #298 on: October 09, 2011, 03:02:43 PM »
Thats a fake 2000 mirror set, not minted by Shanghai mint. The last 1/10 mirror sold for $5000. Buyers arent that stupid.

Offline Obsidian

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #299 on: October 09, 2011, 03:16:41 PM »
Thats a fake 2000 mirror set, not minted by Shanghai mint. The last 1/10 mirror sold for $5000. Buyers arent that stupid.

What makes you think it's a fake except the price?  The packaging doesn't look too off to me. An unknowing Seller could easily not distinguish between a frosted or mirrored set and $4000.00 would be cheap but not unreasonable for a frosted set.  

I'm not saying it isn't a fake, I'm no expert but simply because it sold at a low price doesn't make it a fake.  It could just make it a Seller not knowing what he has.

Offline davidt3251

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #300 on: October 09, 2011, 03:35:25 PM »
I have been buying these coins from a couple of Chinese dealers. Anyway, according to them

-there are no COAs in China with any sets
-even if there was, the COA says bullion. Show me one other COA for a Chinese coin that says bullion. They all use the word coins.

Offline davidt3251

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #301 on: October 09, 2011, 03:46:24 PM »
Look at the word Republic on the COA

1st line ends Re
2nd line starts public

I have never seen a word split onto two on a COA

Offline PandaCollector

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #302 on: October 09, 2011, 05:20:33 PM »
Does anyone know (Poconopenn?) when the China Mint started using those digital designs on the control slips instead of the words, "Made in China"? I agree with David that this box may have been added later by a distributor. The COA is suspect, too. The question in my mind is if the coins were resealed. I have been trying to get to the root of a couple of mysteries with the mirror coins and this set fits into that. The seller states he acquired the coins in 2001 which makes the digital labels a key point (for me) in his story.

I will say that if someone faked these coins it had to have been done at least 3 1/2 years ago and I can't imagine why such high quality fakes were never distributed. The phony silver mirror coins are more recent than that, were widely dispersed and created havoc among collectors and dealers.

Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
http://www.pandacollector.com

Offline Panda Halves

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #303 on: October 09, 2011, 05:36:53 PM »
We know some of the larger gold pandas have restricts. Since the 2000 pandas didn't have an official authorized mintage number would it be possible for the mint to restrike these?

Offline davidt3251

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #304 on: October 09, 2011, 05:37:02 PM »
Look at the large image of the 1/10. Coin is not round, not symmetrical. Different coin than my 1/10 when viewed from same angle. Looks fake.

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #305 on: October 09, 2011, 05:37:35 PM »
I see the computer labels on 2001s.  
The possibilties I see are that they are real and they used the new labels since 2000/2001 and the new labels may have started to be available.
Or they are fake with reseals, in later pouches with the new labels ( Hmm.. Do reaseals suddenly matter?)
The coins look really good to my eyes, the photos are not blurred either.  The 50 and 10 do not appear symetrical, might that be a photo angle distortion?
 The COA is suspect, if they were for domestic distribution why have a COA? Also why have the computer label for that matter?
The box is odd too, later bullion sets have the coins not in their pouches.
It would be a lot of work for counterfeitors to make all five sizes well enough to pass.
Lots does not add up.
Yet the seller does not look suspect when feedback or types of transactions are examined. Intriguing.....

If real, this is the WOW of the YEAR, not just day. 
« Last Edit: October 09, 2011, 05:50:01 PM by Underbidder »

Offline davidt3251

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #306 on: October 09, 2011, 06:09:49 PM »
Of the 2000 mirrors I have, I have to now (sheepishly) admit that one of the first coins I bought was a fake. It is the only 2000 mirror coin I have that has the computer generated bar. The coin exhibits the same non-symmetrical characteristics as these coins. The coins arent round and one side is dented. The space in the ring around the coin varies unusually. I will get a picture.

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #307 on: October 09, 2011, 06:12:14 PM »
Of the 2000 mirrors I have, I have to now (sheepishly) admit that one of the first coins I bought was a fake. It is the only 2000 mirror coin I have that has the computer generated bar. The coin exhibits the same non-symmetrical characteristics as these coins. The coins arent round and one side is dented. The space in the ring around the coin varies unusually. I will get a picture.

Can you also tell us:
Weight?
Dimensions?
Where you obtained it?

Offline fractalfate

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #308 on: October 09, 2011, 07:41:10 PM »
The coins themselves look legit to me. I would have bought that in half a heartbeat if I saw it. If they are fakes, then we are all in for some trouble.

Offline Batman

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #309 on: October 09, 2011, 08:32:33 PM »
These were sold on ebay Germany last month.  Same coa's.

http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemnext&item=250880436336.html


Offline davidt3251

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #310 on: October 09, 2011, 09:11:02 PM »
looks like same problem as with the other computer coas, the circles are  a bitt offcenter

My coin isnt even round, and thats the other problem, but when the seller takes pictures at an angle it masks the problem, even if the seller isnt doing so intentionally

Offline Obsidian

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #311 on: October 09, 2011, 10:01:26 PM »
Those german ones look okay to me.  Tilting the camera can give you the distortion in the picture i'd guess.  Again, not saying they are not fake but I'd be fooled by them as would many others.  The COA's being the key to determining if they are fake doesn't make sense to me either.  If you are able to replicate the coin and the mint packaging, I wouldn't think the counterfeiters would be dumb enough to mess up on the COA.

Offline Batman

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #312 on: October 09, 2011, 10:04:49 PM »
This appeared recently on taobao. There is also a 1/10 ounce.


http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=13043328056


Underbidder

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #313 on: October 09, 2011, 10:14:02 PM »
This appeared recently on taobao. There is also a 1/10 ounce.


http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=13043328056



Aha!  Taobao' s paper does NOT have digital printing.   Still not certain if that's completely relevant but....

Offline tjujoypop

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #314 on: October 09, 2011, 10:39:25 PM »
Here is another gold mirror panda, I have ever post a 5 Yuan mirror in this forum before.

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #315 on: October 09, 2011, 10:48:01 PM »
Here is another gold mirror panda, I have ever post a 5 Yuan mirror in this forum before.


And there's another WITH digital paper....so, they either came with BOTH plain and digital,
and there's more that are being coaxed out of hiding from China, or there's fakes out there now.
It'll be very interesting to see David's photos of his coin he tells us is oblong and fake...

Offline poconopenn

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #316 on: October 10, 2011, 03:10:23 PM »
IMO, the 2000 gold pandas in the pictures of this listing are genuine. The blue barcode-like sticker was used for Shanghai Mint in 2000 and 2001,(possible 2002) usually for small fractions. The box is generic and being used as box for yearly set inside China. To the best of my knowledge, no COA was ever issued for BU coin by China Mint. There are many fake COAs inside China. China Mint has water-marked all COA since 1992 to counter-attack the counterfeiters.

The seller of this set is problematic. There was no selling activity during last 18 months. This seller  bought 152 items (no coin) during last 12 months, but had not left any feedback for the others. There is no buying activity since 8/21/11. IMO, this may be a scam and seller’s account may be hijacked. The pictures of this set may be copied from website inside China. Of course, there is a chance that this seller actually own this gold set, since seller is located at Coeur d'Alene, Idaho, a gold and silver mining town.

Feedback as a seller

http://feedback.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewFeedback2&userid=leoherder&ftab=FeedbackAsSeller

Feedback as a buyer

http://feedback.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewFeedback2&userid=leoherder&ftab=FeedbackAsBuyer

Feedback for the others

http://feedback.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewFeedback2&userid=leoherder&ftab=FeedbackLeftForOthers

Here is five coins 2000 mirror set currently listed at taobao site.

http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=157335071


Offline Batman

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #317 on: October 10, 2011, 08:10:30 PM »
Of the 2000 mirrors I have, I have to now (sheepishly) admit that one of the first coins I bought was a fake. It is the only 2000 mirror coin I have that has the computer generated bar. The coin exhibits the same non-symmetrical characteristics as these coins. The coins arent round and one side is dented. The space in the ring around the coin varies unusually. I will get a picture.

When you get a chance, pls post the pic.  Thanks.

Offline davidt3251

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #318 on: October 10, 2011, 08:11:10 PM »
I have made multiple attempts at uploading the pix. Just times out.

Offline Batman

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #319 on: October 10, 2011, 08:13:13 PM »
Maybe a moderator can help.

Offline Batman

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #320 on: October 11, 2011, 05:02:52 AM »
Not sure if this is a WOW or a what were you thinking (WWYT).  Actually, I was thinking of starting a new category called WWYT:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1989-VERY-RARE-10Yn-China-Silver-Panda-PCGS-MS70-MS-70-Proof-Like-VERY-LOW-POP-/130574936708?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1e66df6a84

Offline Birdman

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #321 on: October 11, 2011, 09:26:35 AM »
Not sure if this is a WOW or a what were you thinking (WWYT).  Actually, I was thinking of starting a new category called WWYT:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1989-VERY-RARE-10Yn-China-Silver-Panda-PCGS-MS70-MS-70-Proof-Like-VERY-LOW-POP-/130574936708?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1e66df6a84

I took a quick glance at your note earlier today and followed the link.  In rechecking the link now, the selling price seems lower than I recall it was.  It is now $4600.  Was it readjusted?  Perhaps there was something inappropriate going on.  Either way, it is definitely an eyebrow-raising sale.

Offline exchange

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #322 on: October 11, 2011, 09:44:26 AM »
I took a quick glance at your note earlier today and followed the link.  In rechecking the link now, the selling price seems lower than I recall it was.  It is now $4600.  Was it readjusted?  Perhaps there was something inappropriate going on.  Either way, it is definitely an eyebrow-raising sale.

yes, I remember seeing something like $8700, now "only" $4600. Regardless, unjustified.
Almost 3 ounces of gold for this!

exchange

Offline Batman

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #323 on: October 11, 2011, 10:01:17 AM »
I believe the original asking price was higher but this ended as a "best offer".

Offline PandaCollector

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #324 on: October 11, 2011, 12:04:41 PM »
yes, I remember seeing something like $8700, now "only" $4600. Regardless, unjustified.
Almost 3 ounces of gold for this!

exchange

Exchange, you have my respect for your consistency. Just for laughs, how many oz. of gold could you justify for this collectible? It has a low intrinsic value but the supply is limited and the demand is strong.



Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
http://www.pandacollector.com


Offline larrydreher

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #325 on: October 11, 2011, 12:57:20 PM »
I too feel the price was "crazy" but when dealing with a grade rareity anything is possible if someone is willing to pay it.  My problem with this price revolves around what appears to me a new found propensity for PCGS to be turning out 70's in the silver panda series.  If they issue a couple more 70's in the 1989, the price will most likely fall significantly.

I like to own 70's for my registry set but I don't think of them as investments since the population can increase (sometimes significantly) at any point. Grading (or a particular grading company) might also go out of fashion some day and the large premiums could dry up.  Lastly, the premium is very illiquid, if you need to sell on short notice, you may lose the premium almost in its entirety. To me, the 70 "premium" is a hobby expense not an investment. 

Offline PandaCollector

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #326 on: October 11, 2011, 01:57:51 PM »
I too feel the price was "crazy" but when dealing with a grade rareity anything is possible if someone is willing to pay it.  My problem with this price revolves around what appears to me a new found propensity for PCGS to be turning out 70's in the silver panda series.  If they issue a couple more 70's in the 1989, the price will most likely fall significantly.

I like to own 70's for my registry set but I don't think of them as investments since the population can increase (sometimes significantly) at any point. Grading (or a particular grading company) might also go out of fashion some day and the large premiums could dry up.  Lastly, the premium is very illiquid, if you need to sell on short notice, you may lose the premium almost in its entirety. To me, the 70 "premium" is a hobby expense not an investment. 

A perfect description of the "70" market. BTW, I am startled by the price, too.

Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
http://www.pandacollector.com

Offline exchange

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #327 on: October 11, 2011, 02:03:49 PM »
Exchange, you have my respect for your consistency. Just for laughs, how many oz. of gold could you justify for this collectible? It has a low intrinsic value but the supply is limited and the demand is strong.



Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
http://www.pandacollector.com


lol, thank you.

The intrinsic value is $32. The supply is 25,000 (not low) and the demand is questionable. I say questionable because of where the demand comes from and it is obvious the price is due to its perfect grade. I would not chance it when down the road there's a possibility this coin could form white spots as it has been documented from other ms70, ms69, etc.. coins.

The coin in OMP sells for under $180, thats about 5 to 6 times over spot. (very reasonable). Given that the coin received a perfect grade of 70, it warrants some kind of premium. To me the risk is greater than the grade.

As for how many ounces of gold I would justify paying for this collectible.
Because I don't believe in graded coins my price would be a lot lower than one who does.

Sincerely,
exchange

Offline peng_you

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #328 on: October 13, 2011, 06:19:30 AM »
oops.
peng_you

Offline poconopenn

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #329 on: October 17, 2011, 01:30:30 PM »

Offline tjujoypop

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #330 on: October 17, 2011, 07:21:33 PM »
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=110756152616

1964 1 fen is not considered as key date.
I was the second highest bidder. 
When I gave the 800$ bid, I was the highest bidder at 660$, still I raised it to 1100$, but I was not the highest bidder.
Right after the auction was ended, I receive the second highest offer.
I am hesitate now, any sugestions?
Thanks.

Offline Batman

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #331 on: October 17, 2011, 07:32:24 PM »
Sounds like a second chance offer. I never liked or trusted them.  Here is a quote from Poconopenn back in 2009:

Bank of China issued proof sets of circulated coins from 1981 to 1986, consisting of seven coins (1, 2, 5 Fen and 1, 2, 5 Jiao and 1 Yuan) and one lunar year medal. The Fens were made with Al-Mg alloy, Jiaos with Cu-Zn alloy, and Yuan with Cu-Ni alloy. The planned mintages were 10,000. Those sets were not for sales but as gift to foreign VIP.  The actual mintage is believed to be lower than the planned mintages. For example, the actual mintages of 1985 and 1986 proof sets are 4,825 and 660 respectively. The current value for 1985 is about $600-$750 and 1996 is more than $6,000.
 
There are UNC mint sets for 1979, 1980, 1981, 1983 and 1985. Again UNC sets have a very low mintage. 1979 UNC set has three coins (1, 2, 5 Fens) only, in a blue PVC wallet with a planned mintage of 10,000, while 1980 set has 7 coins and 1 medal in a blue or a black wallet with a planned mintage of 10,000. Both 1979 and 1980 were produced at Shengyang Mint. 1981 UNC set was also produced at Shengyang Mint, housed in a red wallet, with a planned mintage of 13,400, while 1981 proof set was produced at Shanghai Mint. 1982 and 1983 proof sets also were produced at Shanghai Mint. There are two different 1984 proof sets.   Shanghai Mint produced a small date 1 Yuan, while Shengyang Mint had a large date 1 Yuan. The medal (rat) of Shanghai Mint is made of red copper while Shengyang is Cu-Zn alloy.
 
The following circulated coins, between 1979-1986, are very rare, regardless proof or UNC; 1979 5 Fen, 1980 2 Fen & 5 Fen, 1981 1 Fen & 5 Fen, 1982 1,2,5 Jaio & 1 Yuan, 1984 1, 2, 5 Jaio & 1 Yuan, 1985 2 Jaio, 1986 1, 2, 5 Jaio & 1 Yuan. It is my understanding that very limited UNC 1, 2, 5 Jaio & 1 Yuan minted in 1982 and 1984. It is also my understanding that no 1, 2, 5 Jaio and 1 Yuan UNC coins were minted in 1986.

Bank of China also issued proof and UNC sets from 1991 to 2000. The planned mintages for proof sets are 20,000. There is no mintage information available for UNC sets.


Offline tjujoypop

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #332 on: October 17, 2011, 07:39:20 PM »
Yes, second chance offer. But I still want to buy it, sigh.

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #333 on: October 17, 2011, 08:20:38 PM »
Counter offer with your original highest bid at $800 maybe.

Offline poconopenn

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #334 on: October 17, 2011, 08:50:32 PM »
I had set snip for $510, but never had chance to bid. The fair value for this coin is about $500, since 1960 1 fen is not a key date and coin from original bank roll is about $100. It is true only 2 out of 18 graded by NGC at MS67 and no higher. IMO, the price over $1125 is defintiely too high and shilling is not involved in this auction.

tjujoypop,

Ask seller if the second chance offer is for the same PCGS coin listed or different PCGS MS67 coin. The seller may have another 67 coin. 
« Last Edit: October 17, 2011, 09:00:26 PM by poconopenn »

Offline exchange

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #335 on: October 17, 2011, 08:56:58 PM »
I was the second highest bidder.  
When I gave the 800$ bid, I was the highest bidder at 660$, still I raised it to 1100$, but I was not the highest bidder.
Right after the auction was ended, I receive the second highest offer.
I am hesitate now, any sugestions?
Thanks.

How is it possible that right after the auction ended you received the second highest offer. This has "sucker" written all over it. If the seller is canceling the transaction from the winning bidder, then he or she should cancel all of the transactions related to this bidder which would put the price back to $400. And from what Poconopenn says its fair value, that seems fair.

exchange

Offline tjujoypop

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #336 on: October 17, 2011, 09:06:50 PM »

I had set snip for $510, but never had chance to bid. The fair value for this coin is about $500, since 1960 1 fen is not a key date and coin from original bank roll is about $100. It is true only 2 out of 18 graded by NGC at MS67 and no higher. IMO, the price over $1125 is defintiely too high and shilling is not involved in this auction.
Poco, I agree with you. I think this coin worth 500$.
Since it is one of the third highest graded coin by PCGS, and my  friend don't have it, he would like to pay more for it.

Offline poconopenn

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #337 on: October 17, 2011, 09:10:58 PM »
The seller will make second chance offer if he/she has another PCGS67 coin, since the price, IMO, is 100% higher than the fair value.

Offline tjujoypop

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #338 on: October 17, 2011, 09:16:11 PM »
If I buy this coin and receive it, I'll check the PCGS No.
Then we can know it is the same coin or another one.

Offline poconopenn

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #339 on: October 17, 2011, 09:36:46 PM »
3 out of 46 1964 1 fen coins graded by PCGS are MS67 and no higher.

Offline tjujoypop

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Re: WOW of the day
« Reply #340 on: October 17, 2011, 09:39:34 PM »
I sent the seller a message, aksing him the PCGS number.

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