Author Topic: Actual mintages  (Read 86179 times)

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alexwu

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Re: Actual mintages
« Reply #15 on: September 13, 2008, 04:27:10 PM »
according to those figures... it seems Chinese Modern Coins started with year of 1979?

Yep!   :001_smile:

Offline badon

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Re: Actual mintages
« Reply #16 on: September 16, 2008, 04:51:01 PM »
About the 1995 unicorns with a mintage of 223, and extant COA's of over 1400, I think there's a few possibilities:

#1 The mint kept making them after 1995

#2 The mint printed more COA's than coins, and packaged the coins with random COA numbers

#3 The COA, the coin, or both, are fake

What we need is a registry of chinese coins showing the coin and the COA so we can keep track of the genuine coins, and look it up when it appears for sale. So many antiquities and collectibles are worthless without a record of who has owned it in the past, so that it can be verified it isn't fake. A wiki would do this well.

Offline Coinex

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Re: Actual mintages
« Reply #17 on: September 17, 2008, 01:54:30 AM »
About the 1995 unicorns with a mintage of 223, and extant COA's of over 1400, I think there's a few possibilities:

#1 The mint kept making them after 1995

#2 The mint printed more COA's than coins, and packaged the coins with random COA numbers

#3 The COA, the coin, or both, are fake

What we need is a registry of chinese coins showing the coin and the COA so we can keep track of the genuine coins, and look it up when it appears for sale. So many antiquities and collectibles are worthless without a record of who has owned it in the past, so that it can be verified it isn't fake. A wiki would do this well.

I've never heard of the possibility that a coin such as the 1995 Silver 12 oz Unicorn could be fake. I don't have reason to believe they are out there. You know this coin does not show up much at all so unless there are hundreds together in a room somewhere, the mintage could well be right.

alexwu

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Re: Actual mintages
« Reply #18 on: September 17, 2008, 06:38:51 PM »
About the 1995 unicorns with a mintage of 223, and extant COA's of over 1400, I think there's a few possibilities:

#1 The mint kept making them after 1995

#2 The mint printed more COA's than coins, and packaged the coins with random COA numbers

#3 The COA, the coin, or both, are fake

What we need is a registry of chinese coins showing the coin and the COA so we can keep track of the genuine coins, and look it up when it appears for sale. So many antiquities and collectibles are worthless without a record of who has owned it in the past, so that it can be verified it isn't fake. A wiki would do this well.

#2 is very possible!    :thumbup1:

Offline badon

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Re: Actual mintages
« Reply #19 on: September 18, 2008, 01:09:04 AM »
Pandaman: Be careful with that kind of thinking. Fakes are out there, and you have to watch for them or you will get screwed. Luckily most of them will not fool careful inspection of the coin.

Does the coin have strange bubbles or bumps in areas of the coin that are supposed to be flat? That indicates an imperfect gold or silver plating job on a fake coin.

Does the coin weigh what it's supposed to weigh? If it doesn't, it's fake.

Does the coin have details that are different from known genuine examples? If yes, you may have another variety of genuine coin, or, it's a fake. Have an expert examine your coin to be sure.

Do you know where your coin has been since 2005? As far as I know, most of the fakes were made after 2006, so if you've got proof that a coin has been in trade (auction catalog?) or in someone's collection in 2005 or earlier, then it's probably not a fake. This is often called a "pedigree" or a "provenance" and it's sort of like a family tree. For example, you can say you're related to the Queen of England only if you can name everyone in that line of your family tree that connects to her. If you can't do that, then you're probably a fake. Coins with pedigrees sell for more money because no one worries about whether it is genuine or not, and it doesn't matter how good counterfeiting technology is.

Speaking of fakes, here's one right here:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=320300258423

It's actually a photo of a genuine coin, but the person selling it is not going to deliver it to you. This item has been removed previously from ebay, and the fact that there's only a few recent feedbacks, and those users have been expelled from ebay, shows that this ebay account is probably a stolen account being used for fraud.

Offline badon

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Re: Actual mintages
« Reply #20 on: September 18, 2008, 01:12:51 AM »
By the way, I've just seen some 1995 proof 1 oz silver pandas with Certificate of Authenticity in the 4600 range. If those are the highest numbered, and the last ones produced, then we have a guess as to how many were really made. Anyone seen anything higher? Of course, possibility #2 above could still apply.

Offline snowball

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Re: Actual mintages
« Reply #21 on: September 18, 2008, 09:49:06 AM »
By the way, I've just seen some 1995 proof 1 oz silver pandas with Certificate of Authenticity in the 4600 range. If those are the highest numbered, and the last ones produced, then we have a guess as to how many were really made. Anyone seen anything higher? Of course, possibility #2 above could still apply.

Coa #4875 is the highest I have seen.   :001_smile:
Happy Collecting!  快乐收藏!

Colin
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Offline Coinex

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Re: Actual mintages
« Reply #22 on: September 18, 2008, 03:22:05 PM »
Pandaman: Be careful with that kind of thinking. Fakes are out there, and you have to watch for them or you will get screwed. Luckily most of them will not fool careful inspection of the coin.

Does the coin have strange bubbles or bumps in areas of the coin that are supposed to be flat? That indicates an imperfect gold or silver plating job on a fake coin.

Does the coin weigh what it's supposed to weigh? If it doesn't, it's fake.

Does the coin have details that are different from known genuine examples? If yes, you may have another variety of genuine coin, or, it's a fake. Have an expert examine your coin to be sure.

Do you know where your coin has been since 2005? As far as I know, most of the fakes were made after 2006, so if you've got proof that a coin has been in trade (auction catalog?) or in someone's collection in 2005 or earlier, then it's probably not a fake. This is often called a "pedigree" or a "provenance" and it's sort of like a family tree. For example, you can say you're related to the Queen of England only if you can name everyone in that line of your family tree that connects to her. If you can't do that, then you're probably a fake. Coins with pedigrees sell for more money because no one worries about whether it is genuine or not, and it doesn't matter how good counterfeiting technology is.

Speaking of fakes, here's one right here:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=320300258423

It's actually a photo of a genuine coin, but the person selling it is not going to deliver it to you. This item has been removed previously from ebay, and the fact that there's only a few recent feedbacks, and those users have been expelled from ebay, shows that this ebay account is probably a stolen account being used for fraud.

I know fakes are out there but have you ever seen a large gold or silver Modern Chinese coin faked? It was the 12 oz 1995 Ag Unicorn that was mentioned.

The auction link you listed pictures not a fake coin, as you know. It is a fraudulent listing. So YES, you do have to be careful and I have first hand experience, unfortunately, in knowing this.

Offline badon

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Re: Actual mintages
« Reply #23 on: September 19, 2008, 11:42:48 AM »
Yes, I have seen 12 oz fakes. The last one I saw on ebay was being sold by an honest dealer who bought it from an honest collector. I don't remember how the collector got it, but I think he bought it in China. When I see them, I notify the dealers that the item they're selling is fake.

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but the good dealers are grateful that their reputations are still good. It's a sad day when an honest dealer is accused of fraud when he was just another victim of the ancient chinese crime (counterfeiting).

Offline silverstamped

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Re: Actual mintages
« Reply #24 on: November 10, 2008, 08:34:13 PM »
The 1993 Marco Polo 5oz Gold sounds interesting.  Anybody ever see one?

Offline snowball

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Re: Actual mintages
« Reply #25 on: November 15, 2008, 08:25:52 AM »
The 1993 Marco Polo 5oz Gold sounds interesting.  Anybody ever see one?

One was sold on Heritage's 2008 January NY Signature World Coin Auction for $20,700.00.   :001_tt1:

Happy Collecting!  快乐收藏!

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Offline ?

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Re: Actual mintages
« Reply #26 on: December 03, 2008, 07:24:53 PM »
Hi everybody,

please let me start by introducing myself. I am a German collector of China gold and silver coins and have started a thread in a German precious metal board on that topic, http://www.goldseitenforum.de/index.php?page=Thread&threadID=7662&pageNo=1.

First of all I'd like to thank Colin for the work he is doing here and on china-mint.info. I have found this very helpful from the beginning. Actual mintages is really a though topic with China coins. In one of my last posts in the German board, http://www.goldseitenforum.de/index.php?page=Thread&postID=333705#post333705, I have copied some of the figures given here, hoping that members there will contribute.

For a start I can add that 1991 Kang Xi gold was sold on German e*b*a*y on September 30th, 2007 showing a certificate # 1,241, which does not coinicide with the number given above. It will take some time to go through my archive of e*b*a*y auctions as this sums up to almost 10.000 auctions through the last 18 months but I will try to go through step by step and contribute any findings here. Based on my archive I may also state that the 3 12 oz Unicorns 1995 were sold in the a.m period on e*b*a*y

I may also recommend the book Modern Chinese Commemorative Gold and Silver Coins and Medals Pictorial No. 1 1979 - 1988 which gives some information on actual mintages and as it was published by China Gold Coin Inc. should be a fairly reliable source. Unfortunatedly, it covers a very limited period of time.

I am looking forward sharing opinons, rumours and facts of modern Chinese coins with you here and may apologise in advance, if sometimes my broken English leads to misunderstandings.

anwir

Offline BobW

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Re: Actual mintages
« Reply #27 on: December 03, 2008, 09:24:24 PM »
By the way, I've just seen some 1995 proof 1 oz silver pandas with Certificate of Authenticity in the 4600 range. If those are the highest numbered, and the last ones produced, then we have a guess as to how many were really made. Anyone seen anything higher? Of course, possibility #2 above could still apply.

Coa #4875 is the highest I have seen.   :001_smile:

Discovered today that I have COA #5637 for a 1995 silver 1 ounce proof.

Offline snowball

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Re: Actual mintages
« Reply #28 on: December 04, 2008, 09:45:31 AM »
Hi everybody,

please let me start by introducing myself. I am a German collector of China gold and silver coins and have started a thread in a German precious metal board on that topic, http://www.goldseitenforum.de/index.php?page=Thread&threadID=7662&pageNo=1.

First of all I'd like to thank Colin for the work he is doing here and on china-mint.info. I have found this very helpful from the beginning. Actual mintages is really a though topic with China coins. In one of my last posts in the German board, http://www.goldseitenforum.de/index.php?page=Thread&postID=333705#post333705, I have copied some of the figures given here, hoping that members there will contribute.

For a start I can add that 1991 Kang Xi gold was sold on German e*b*a*y on September 30th, 2007 showing a certificate # 1,241, which does not coinicide with the number given above. It will take some time to go through my archive of e*b*a*y auctions as this sums up to almost 10.000 auctions through the last 18 months but I will try to go through step by step and contribute any findings here. Based on my archive I may also state that the 3 12 oz Unicorns 1995 were sold in the a.m period on e*b*a*y

I may also recommend the book Modern Chinese Commemorative Gold and Silver Coins and Medals Pictorial No. 1 1979 - 1988 which gives some information on actual mintages and as it was published by China Gold Coin Inc. should be a fairly reliable source. Unfortunatedly, it covers a very limited period of time.

I am looking forward sharing opinons, rumours and facts of modern Chinese coins with you here and may apologise in advance, if sometimes my broken English leads to misunderstandings.

anwir


Welcome to the board, anwir!!  I always want to learn more about German's Chinese coin market, and the collecting trend on Chinese modern coins.  I am looking for your sharing!    :001_smile: :001_smile:
Happy Collecting!  快乐收藏!

Colin
CE Collection Inc.
China Mint | Online Store

Offline poconopenn

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Re: Actual mintages
« Reply #29 on: December 07, 2008, 01:07:11 PM »
As a Chinese coin collector for more than 30 years and modern Chinese coin since 1979, there is a very good explaination of COA # higher than the actual mingtage. The China Mint has maintained a policy to accept foreign distributors to return coin which can not be sold within one year, since 1979. The China Mint actually produced planned mintage and shipped to distributors. Some distributors sold higher COA # coin to the collectors. Some low COA # coin sets might return to China Mint and destroyed, re-circled to make new coins. During 1994-1996, China Mint's made a major error in marketing its coins. The price of initial offer was too high to be acceptable to collectors, especially panda and unicorn. Many coins were return to China Mint. Those coins with higher initial offer price before 1996 usually have a lower final mintage. Most of my collection have a COA# higher than the actual final mintage. There is no reason to be concerned if your COA# is higher than the actual mintage.