Author Topic: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money  (Read 6783 times)

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Offline PandaCollector

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Re: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money
« Reply #60 on: July 13, 2017, 11:29:20 PM »
Thanks for sharing all the helpful insights.  So much to learn.  I was reading this piece from the MCM site where it says, 'To commemorate this highly-anticipated occasion, MCM will proudly be the sole distributor of 2017 Gold and Silver Denver ANA Show Pandas.'.

https://www.moderncoinmart.com/tags/2017-ana-world-s-fair-of-money-show-pandas/

If they are the Sole distributor, how is it possible that Panda America can be approved to provide these denver show medals? 

Panda America will not have a gold 2017 ANA Show Panda, but they will have a silver one. Show Pandas from both companies were approved by the ANA (a first).

Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
China Pricepedia
The Gold & Silver Panda Coin Buyer’s Guide 3
www.pandacollector.com

Offline pandamonium

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Re: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money
« Reply #61 on: July 14, 2017, 02:56:30 PM »
Both gold and silver from the 1980s are still in horads.  Silver hoards are bigger, I have seen 20+ 1984 1oz HK come out, 40+ of 1985-1987 5oz and 12oz silver HK, however, quality varies coins could be PF65-PF69, a getting PF69 quality large silver from the 1980s is hard and I can understand why a single coin could trade for a high price. 





There could also be hoards of the 83, 84 & 85 1 oz silver pandas or the big 3 w/ planned mint of 10,000 each.      Last time i looked....
1st silver panda 1983 had about 650+ NGC pop.
1984 had about 850+ NGC pop
1985 had about 820+ NGC pop

The 1984 to 86 HK Expos had about 1,000 planned mint...
84 1 oz had about 140+ NGC pop
85 5 oz had about 130+ NGC pop
86 12 oz had about 120+ NGC pop

So i tell my collector friends that cannot afford the big 3 to take a second look at the first 3 HK Expos highest grades if possible......


Offline pandamonium

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Re: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money
« Reply #62 on: July 14, 2017, 04:40:38 PM »
Oops, forgot..
87 HK 1,000 planned mint, 88 2,000 planned mint & 89 1,500 planned mint...

1987 5 oz HK  had about 113+ total NGC pop...
1988 5 oz HK  had about 91+ total NGC pop...
1989 1 oz HK had about 141+ total NGC pop...

About 2 yrs ago i planned to post NGC pop of the big 3  VS  the HK Expos but the dealers/collectors i sent emails to said do not post so they can buy them up first.....

Offline collectingcoins

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Re: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money
« Reply #63 on: July 14, 2017, 05:43:08 PM »
Hello PandaCollector.  Do you know why they opted to go with two official mints for this show?  Is it because it is one of the better known shows (from what I've read) and they can support two types of medals?  It looks like MCM has the gold, but panda america has the tri-medal.  Is having two official sponsors cause for concern for future shows? 

Offline Mirkkanen

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Re: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money
« Reply #64 on: July 14, 2017, 07:36:10 PM »
If anyone here on CCF has a hoard of 1983 or 1985 silver PF pandas, please contact me via PM and I'd be happy to take them off your hands in exchange for some US currency  :)




There could also be hoards of the 83, 84 & 85 1 oz silver pandas or the big 3 w/ planned mint of 10,000 each.      Last time i looked....
1st silver panda 1983 had about 650+ NGC pop.
1984 had about 850+ NGC pop
1985 had about 820+ NGC pop

The 1984 to 86 HK Expos had about 1,000 planned mint...
84 1 oz had about 140+ NGC pop
85 5 oz had about 130+ NGC pop
86 12 oz had about 120+ NGC pop

So i tell my collector friends that cannot afford the big 3 to take a second look at the first 3 HK Expos highest grades if possible......



Offline KeyDate1/2ozPandas

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Re: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money
« Reply #65 on: July 15, 2017, 12:08:05 AM »
2016 ANA medal was sponsored by Mish International (1oz silver, 12oz silver, 1oz gold) and GovMint (50g silver, 50g gold).  The other ones I don't know if it was Mish or GovMint or ANA.  Having competition among the sponsors is good thing for product development but a bad thing for collectors on a budget, how many people can afford to buy multiple of a given medal.

Back in the 1980s I collected sports cards, prior to 1981 Topps was the only producer of cards, then in 1981 Donruss and Fleer started producing cards, then 1988 Score came out, then 1989 Upper Deck, then 1990s a bunch of new companies with several of them producing different series of varying quality.  I stopped in 1989 because once supply of new issue was so large it left the collector confused what to buy, because one can't buy it all.  I am glad I did because none of the issues after 1989 really paid off, even worse many left the hobby and even the 1980s cards suffered.  The stuff prior to 1980 has held up, but well below returns of other investments. 

I don't know if the market can support so many different issues, my concern is the limited collector base for medals will simply walk away, which may drastically impact new issues, even worse the older issues will end up with flat to down collector base.  Too much supply kills market, that is why I always recommend buying things that are hard to buy and are very liquid in multiple grades.

Offline PandaCollector

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Re: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money
« Reply #66 on: July 15, 2017, 03:55:13 AM »
Hello PandaCollector.  Do you know why they opted to go with two official mints for this show?  Is it because it is one of the better known shows (from what I've read) and they can support two types of medals?  It looks like MCM has the gold, but panda america has the tri-medal.  Is having two official sponsors cause for concern for future shows? 

These are good questions. I am also surprised that there are two sponsors, but do not have any insight (only speculation) into the ANA's thinking. We will just have to see how it works out in Denver.

I agree with Arif's concerns about oversupply. He is not the only one who has this on his mind. I am not worried about anyone walking away from collecting Chinese coins altogether, but they might decide to pass on some new issues. I do like the pricing of the Denver tri-metals at only $39. I think these will be popular souvenirs. The silvers are also, in my opinion, reasonable at $99 with a mintage below 1,000. Disclosure: I intend to buy two of each, at least.

Last year the GovMint 50 gram ANA Pandas were not available at the show. I hope the supply chain works more smoothly this time around. I look forward to seeing the 2017s.

Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
China Pricepedia
The Gold & Silver Panda Coin Buyer’s Guide 3
www.pandacollector.com

Offline PandaCollector

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Re: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money
« Reply #67 on: July 15, 2017, 03:59:47 AM »




There could also be hoards of the 83, 84 & 85 1 oz silver pandas or the big 3 w/ planned mint of 10,000 each.      Last time i looked....
1st silver panda 1983 had about 650+ NGC pop.
1984 had about 850+ NGC pop
1985 had about 820+ NGC pop

The 1984 to 86 HK Expos had about 1,000 planned mint...
84 1 oz had about 140+ NGC pop
85 5 oz had about 130+ NGC pop
86 12 oz had about 120+ NGC pop

So i tell my collector friends that cannot afford the big 3 to take a second look at the first 3 HK Expos highest grades if possible......



I am confident that none of the original distributors of the 1983-1985 27 gm silver coins hoarded them.

Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
China Pricepedia
The Gold & Silver Panda Coin Buyer’s Guide 3
www.pandacollector.com

Offline pandamonium

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Re: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money
« Reply #68 on: July 15, 2017, 07:56:54 AM »
I was not implying the original distributors have hoards of the big 3 silver pandas or even hoards of HK Expos.     Arif mentioned that and i assumed he meant it was a dealer/collector that may have had these hoards of HK Expos.     The point of posting is the low NGC pop numbers of the big 3  VS  HK Expos.     Both are top pandas to own......
Interesting comparison of the oversupply of baseball cards and how the market reacted.    Could all these new issue, low mint medals hurt early issue medals?       As gold/silver will soon take center stage and China/Russia owns the gold, i think it will not.    Early issue Chinese will always be collectible.    I agree the collectors will not walk away from collecting Chinese coins/medals no matter how many new issue, low mint medals the Mint pumps out and they will pump out a lot....
Denver tri metals are souvenirs?    "Souvenirs" is about right for several other new issue too.    Those new issue made of precious metals will always have bullion value at least.....

Offline KeepOnTrying!

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Re: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money
« Reply #69 on: July 15, 2017, 01:53:57 PM »
2016 ANA medal was sponsored by Mish International (1oz silver, 12oz silver, 1oz gold) and GovMint (50g silver, 50g gold).  The other ones I don't know if it was Mish or GovMint or ANA.  Having competition among the sponsors is good thing for product development but a bad thing for collectors on a budget, how many people can afford to buy multiple of a given medal.

Back in the 1980s I collected sports cards, prior to 1981 Topps was the only producer of cards, then in 1981 Donruss and Fleer started producing cards, then 1988 Score came out, then 1989 Upper Deck, then 1990s a bunch of new companies with several of them producing different series of varying quality.  I stopped in 1989 because once supply of new issue was so large it left the collector confused what to buy, because one can't buy it all.  I am glad I did because none of the issues after 1989 really paid off, even worse many left the hobby and even the 1980s cards suffered.  The stuff prior to 1980 has held up, but well below returns of other investments. 

I don't know if the market can support so many different issues, my concern is the limited collector base for medals will simply walk away, which may drastically impact new issues, even worse the older issues will end up with flat to down collector base.  Too much supply kills market, that is why I always recommend buying things that are hard to buy and are very liquid in multiple grades.


History tends to repeat itself as sure as the sun rises and sets. The question is if someone can reign in the current runaway situation we are facing. It is to the interest of the Chinese Mint governing board and their responsibility to remedy the current situation. Failure of which a similar situation to the base ball example may not be too far fetched. This may not be a popular sentiment in some quarters but it is reality and for love of the hobby.

The reality is that people move on when the pond gets muddied. We may not be there yet and I hope we never get there
KeepOnTrying and Never Give Up!
That lion is also after you!

Offline Mirkkanen

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Re: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money
« Reply #70 on: July 15, 2017, 03:06:46 PM »
IMO, there is no "situation" needing to be remedied. Intelligent collectors don't need to read a 6 page thread to discover that these types of medals are not maintaining value over several months/years. A bit of basic research and one or two buys that lose value will accomplish that.

It is not an issue that we as collectors/investors can manage anyway.


Offline collectingcoins

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Re: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money
« Reply #71 on: July 15, 2017, 03:47:41 PM »
Since I'm collecting a couple of the Denver Pandas, I did some research on show medals.  It appears that some of these are selling at a good price many years after the show.  I was looking at the Hong Kong medals that was highlighted by someone, and those seem to be fetching a good price.  I looked at the Cincinnati 1 oz silver, and those are going for a good price too.  I'm not looking to flip, but to keep for a long time.  It appears at $99.00 and $39.00 and a mintage of only 888, there should be a floor-not that I'm worried-I'm keeping these.  I am worried about the many different variations of the new show medals.  I think that is stretching it a tad.  I'm also happy to find deals on older panda bullion coins too - both silver and gold.  These Denver issues are the only medals I will be purchasing. The other medals found on the internet seem too risky.

Offline KeepOnTrying!

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Re: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money
« Reply #72 on: July 15, 2017, 08:09:51 PM »
IMO, there is no "situation" needing to be remedied. Intelligent collectors don't need to read a 6 page thread to discover that these types of medals are not maintaining value over several months/years. A bit of basic research and one or two buys that lose value will accomplish that.

It is not an issue that we as collectors/investors can manage anyway.



New collectors don't buy one or two items or whatever before they learn their lessons. They may buy quite a lot if their source of information is flawed or has conflicts of interest, as we have seen in this hobby. Massive loss of value may turn a neophyte off collecting. Yes we are not necessarily here to tell the newbie what to buy and what not to but the viability of MMC collection in the long term is based on the viability of the newly produced coins and medals and not necessarily on what people already have in their collection. It also depends on new collectors joining our ranks. Complex topic with nuances but the current mintage pattern does not bode well for the future IMO.
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Offline numistacker

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Re: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money
« Reply #73 on: July 18, 2017, 09:46:07 AM »
I guess in many ways I am a new collector but I am also in my tiny way an influencer in that I participate online and have almost 5k subs on my you tube channel where I show many low mintage medals. I also collect USA and UK gold coinage, and Mexican Libertads. I have learned a lot in the last few years and I am always learning more.

You know something - I like low mintage quality Chinese Medals - there I said it. I buy lots of things that are more expensive than them but I enjoy them. I enjoy the artistry, I like owning things that may have between 30 and 200 pieces. I never collected older or even modern fiat Chinese and to be honest it doesnt interest me that much though I do like the 35th Anniversary bimetallic Panda which I showed on my youtube channel today.

I have ordered the Denver show panda pair from PandaAmerica and i have the ANA panda and the moon panda and Expo Pandas too. I dont go overboard with it really but in a world where 10m regular pandas are made I really dont want something there are 10m of.

I dont care if I make money from low mintage medals. The investment in the scheme of things is small but where I have sold the things that I have liked enough to buy I have always made money so far except for two medals the Lohan and one other.

I dont mind buying Brass and I dont mind buying copper and I dont mind that anyone can setup and make one of these lovely medals via the China mints, in fact maybe I will become a sponsor and feature the whole process from start to finish on my Youtube channel, I am sure that would be of huge interest. 

I do worry like most of you that the market could be swamped by cheap nasty badly produced items and while the do occur and some are better than others generally that does not happen and everyone who is passionate enough to do this (as there are far better ways to earn money) also wants to do the best and create the best. My experience is that many collectors enjoy the fun of the chase and the community aspects of collecting, I know I do. Once I have something I put it away and maybe look at it a few times or send it to NGC for grading but the experience is in the chase - was it tough to find? was there lots of competition? did I get a good price?

I am not a purist - there are things that I love and hunt for. I would like a £5 1937 Proof Sovereign and a 1911 set as well and maybe over time I will get these things and they give me a thrill that perhaps I will manage to be careful enough with money to achieve these tings. Low Mintage medals are more fun than serious. Dealers like Lucky want to get new medals out to a wide public so they are not particularly expensive. Other dealers charge a little more and need to earn a living which does not worry me at all.  What I want to do is get more people particularly in the USA to take an interest in interesting things they may not have come across and so I make video's and try to explain to the best of my ability what I like, what I buy and why I buy it. I "promote" in a way but things I like because I feel if I like things then others will like them too and the more buyers in the market the greater the liquidity and the happier that market is.

I started a Facebook group for Chinese coins and trading a couple of months ago and we now have 110 members with more joining each day and I did this because its the same old faces on the forums and I feel that nobody complains about saturation in a growning market. I want to see 10x more people understand and embrace this market. Lets all find ways to make our optimism and enthusiasm for MCC contagious.



Offline PandaCollector

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Re: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money
« Reply #74 on: July 18, 2017, 11:56:38 AM »


I started a Facebook group for Chinese coins and trading a couple of months ago and we now have 110 members with more joining each day... I want to see 10x more people understand and embrace this market. Lets all find ways to make our optimism and enthusiasm for MCC contagious.




Outstanding!

Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
China Pricepedia
The Gold & Silver Panda Coin Buyer’s Guide 3
www.pandacollector.com