Author Topic: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money  (Read 6754 times)

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Offline Championhk

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Re: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money
« Reply #135 on: August 16, 2017, 05:00:29 AM »
Berlinpanda

1)I would like to know did you confirm the story of the sino German medal release with dr Schikora of Berlin mint? Perhaps you can give me the name of your friends at the Berlin mint and dr Schikora can tell them in person?

2) if you would like to confirm if any Berlin bimetallic were given out you can confirm with world money fair CEO Jens or managing director Barbara as they can confirmed this with the hostess they provided to us for the table. Just because you did not get one does not mean others did not , it is simple to confirm as all the people are in Germany.

I think it will be helpful if you can communicate with your real name so we know you are a real person as everyone here in forum is well know and can confirmed their identity . You say you had two friends who attended the first strike ceremony , I knew everyone who came to the first strike except the Berlin mint employees , but you mention your two friends were in the trade , the only trade people in modern coins were two people from emk and uwe from a marketing company and both of these group purchased the Sino German medals from Künker and I assume very happy with their purchase?

 So I am not sure who your two friends from the trade were? Do any other german collectors or dealers know you since you said you have  been collecting for a very long time? Were you with the Berlin mint employees at the first strike since like I mention I knew ALL of the non Berlin mint people , how do we know you were even there?

3) since we posted that we sent 800 sets out of 1,000 brass sets to Germany isn't there 200 sets remaining and since mintage of the yu min medal is 1,500 does that mean there are  700 yu min brass pieces that was not in the sets sent to Germany ?

4) since you stated the yu min medals will lead to huge profit for everyone please tell me how since you seems to know the business much better than I do? I am also thinking about this since we sold out of 2,000 2016 Berlin pandas why did we reduce the mintage to 1,000 in 2017? will this help us generate the huge profit you mention?  It is kind of strange we deters from this huge profit strategy you mention?

 1,000 Sino German sets was sent to Künker for Germany and European sales with the 19 percent tax going to Germany  the 17 percent value added tax also was paid in china combined with fed express shipping cost  , designer cost, die cost , cost of packaging . how much margin do you think there is per set?  if you  deduct  the cost of the donated sets to Germany there seem to be not a great amount of profit left ? and considering the four months this project took to finish and the cost of setting up the first strike ceremony ?  Do you think this a huge profit project ?

Due to the summer vacation we just received the German version of the Sino German medals from Künker recently , they were offered  in the us and in china in limited quantities. Since the event was in Germany most of the interest is coming out of Germany. As I mention before mdm's own version of the Sino German medals has sold  20,000 or more!  If we just wanted to generate the huge profit you mention  we could have just worked with mdm since they try to order more than double the mintage of 3,000 from us BUT we did not! Perhaps you are confusing with the huge profit mdm is generating with the medal we are producing?

5) since you makes many statement I would like to for you to show me anywhere that mcm has offered the 50 gram silver Berlin panda since I do not remember selling any to them?
The other Berlin pandas were NOT sold by champion to mcm but by a Hong Kong company who does business with mcm.

I know that perhaps some people have different opinions about how programs are run, but at the end you have a choice to decide whether to participate ? Making these accusation without proof is somewhat confusing for me since I have not seen any facts from you? but I guess if you are unhappy you can you have your say like the price will collapse on the medals we produce? So far all the medals we hav produce have kept at or higher than the show release price some much higher like the Ana Anaheim gold!   , I think people just have to decide for themselves on the merit of each program.


Offline Championhk

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Re: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money
« Reply #136 on: August 16, 2017, 07:26:37 AM »
Um interesting a german friend who also read the post of Berlinpanda brings up a very interesting issue? Berlinpand's usage of English words are very different from the typical german , did Berlinpanda study in the us or went to an English school? Obvious his English is much better than me as I am not a native English speaker?

A Chinese friend was also very impressed by Berlinpanda's English skills , the only german person I know wth English skills close to Berlinpanda is sebastien an editor of munzen review who also contributed artIcles in English for my journal on the german coin market , past articles  submitted from our German friends required our English editor from Canada to make some revisions , but Berlinpanda is quite good at expressions in a non native language with local usage, maybe Berlinpanda is also a professional writer?  We are now all wondering the true identity of Berlinpanda after the feedback from german ,Chinese , and American readers of his post. No matter what we feel about the show pandas ,  we should all thank Berlinpanda that we have now much more information about the show pandas and we can feel his passion about the 2017 Berlin pandas!

When I travel to Germany again, , I will communicate his opinion to my German counterparts  we are excited to have feedback from a true collector who is passionate about the Berlin panda! Perhaps he can sent me a communication in german which I can forward and it  will be easier for them to understand?

Offline ccl

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Re: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money
« Reply #137 on: August 16, 2017, 07:55:32 AM »
Um interesting a german friend who also read the post of Berlinpanda brings up a very interesting issue? Berlinpand's usage of English words are very different from the typical german , did Berlinpanda study in the us or went to an English school? Obvious his English is much better than me as I am not a native English speaker?

A Chinese friend was also very impressed by Berlinpanda's English skills , the only german person I know wth English skills close to Berlinpanda is sebastien an editor of munzen review who also contributed artIcles in English for my journal on the german coin market , past articles  submitted from our German friends required our English editor from Canada to make some revisions , but Berlinpanda is quite good at expressions in a non native language with local usage, maybe Berlinpanda is also a professional writer?  We are now all wondering the true identity of Berlinpanda after the feedback from german ,Chinese , and American readers of his post. No matter what we feel about the show pandas ,  we should all thank Berlinpanda that we have now much more information about the show pandas and we can feel his passion about the 2017 Berlin pandas!

When I travel to Germany again, , I will communicate his opinion to my German counterparts  we are excited to have feedback from a true collector who is passionate about the Berlin panda! Perhaps he can sent me a communication in german which I can forward and it  will be easier for them to understand?

I couldn't care less who pandaberlin is. Also, your posts look desperate.

Offline Championhk

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Re: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money
« Reply #138 on: August 16, 2017, 08:11:22 AM »
Just some feedback from people I know that have read the posts , we try to provide some answers but I guess it does not matter. A good exercise in patience and let me practice my English which can be much improved.

Offline KeepOnTrying!

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Re: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money
« Reply #139 on: August 16, 2017, 09:40:46 AM »
Um interesting a german friend who also read the post of Berlinpanda brings up a very interesting issue? Berlinpand's usage of English words are very different from the typical german , did Berlinpanda study in the us or went to an English school? Obvious his English is much better than me as I am not a native English speaker?

A Chinese friend was also very impressed by Berlinpanda's English skills , the only german person I know wth English skills close to Berlinpanda is sebastien an editor of munzen review who also contributed artIcles in English for my journal on the german coin market , past articles  submitted from our German friends required our English editor from Canada to make some revisions , but Berlinpanda is quite good at expressions in a non native language with local usage, maybe Berlinpanda is also a professional writer?  We are now all wondering the true identity of Berlinpanda after the feedback from german ,Chinese , and American readers of his post. No matter what we feel about the show pandas ,  we should all thank Berlinpanda that we have now much more information about the show pandas and we can feel his passion about the 2017 Berlin pandas!

When I travel to Germany again, , I will communicate his opinion to my German counterparts  we are excited to have feedback from a true collector who is passionate about the Berlin panda! Perhaps he can sent me a communication in german which I can forward and it  will be easier for them to understand?

These are unfortunate comments but in line with what I have seen being done in this hobby since I started collecting. The veneer of respectability tends to wear off fast!

When I started collecting Chinese coins I quickly built up the traditional fare including the date set silver panda coins, historical, inventions and discoveries and the gold panda coins and so on.

Somewhere along the line I discovered panda medals and found them more exciting but with time saw that the “excitement” was as a result of the MASSIVE HYPE surrounding these medals. And the hype did not come from one source only.

I have seen my ardor cool off over time as I do not relish being repeatedly taken for a ride by individuals who turn out not to have any interest in nurturing long term medal collection, and this refers not only to sponsors but to other middle men and conflicted participants.

This is quite a pity because the varying designs and innovative minting technology used in producing medals confer a lot of eye appeal.

I hope that this area of collection gets cleaned up with time so that people who collect medals can be confident they are not loading up with useless pieces of metallic junk.

Until then everyone should be cautious; the contents of this thread alone provide ample warning. I am however not telling anyone what to collect. Unfortunately, it is only with time and repeated bad experience that people become better collectors.
KeepOnTrying and Never Give Up!
That lion is also after you!

Offline pandaberlin

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Re: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money
« Reply #140 on: August 16, 2017, 10:19:09 AM »
@Championhk: Is a very old-school approach to rant and ask for names if you run out of arguments. In fact, weren't you insinuating that you already knew very well about the identity of anybody was participating in this discussion ("active market players"). Now you continues to blame "professional writers" for this? Who's next?

I am glad to see that the other participants of this discussion were indeed interested in all information that I collected, and could pretty easily draw their own conclusion. I feel very annoyed by the fact that you try to portrait discussion as a battle between good (=you) and bad (=some anonymous dealers who benefit from your medals).

@KeepOnTrying: I thank you a lot for your comment, which brings the discussion back to it's original focus and also makes clear that this whole discussion here is not very helpful to build trust.

Offline TU

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Re: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money
« Reply #141 on: August 16, 2017, 03:53:04 PM »
I have been to the WMF 2017.
At the Macau Desk I was told that the tri-metal Panda is at this day not for sale and while I talked to ChampionHK I recognized that the hostess gave those medals as a present to some visitors.

I also was part of the ceremony at Berlin. I don't know a lot of the few people who stayed there but I think it was clear that at this day nobody would get any coin.
All coins were supposed to be handed out on another day.

I don't know a lot about actually medals and the market around this coins , because I am more interested in older chinese coins.
But if you talk about modern german coins it is usually said that the mintage is to high, so nobody wants the coins and medals.
So the Panda should be much more better than that, isn't it.
At the day of the ceremony I was also part of a discussion about medals at all. And of course there are dealers who only try to make money with the collectors.
ChampionHK was the only one who fighted for high quality and a mintage which reach the collectors.

I think.it is clear that nobody wants to pay thousands of euros for coins but if you want to have some good ones, you have to pay more than 100 euros and it doesn't depend one your special interests of coins.

After all, have all the critical collectors recognized what ChampionHK has done for the sino german friendship?

You can find the donation of the otto beh dies at www.kenom.de for everybody who is interested. You find all the pictures of the Krüger Collection there too. All the pictures you find where only possible because ChampionHK made a big donation to the museum. And finally the Journal of East Asian Numismatics which made an exchange of all the information possible.

As a collector you should know, that a complete collection is usually not possible or very expensive since there are some exclusive coins in every complete collection.
Thomas


Offline KeyDate1/2ozPandas

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Re: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money
« Reply #142 on: August 17, 2017, 07:02:42 PM »
Welcome to the forum TU. 

I think the bigger picture that this thread has made very clear to me is that show medal promoters are taking advantage of collectors by issuing multiple varieties for the sole purpose to line their greedy pockets, while promoting themselves as ambassadors of the industry and friends to collectors.  This reminds me of Bernie Madoff being non-executive chairman of the NASDAQ, while running the biggest ponzi scheme in history.

Almost all collectors would agree that having just 1oz silver and 1oz gold distributed fairly at a show is a reasonable way to commemorative a show.  IMHO there is no need for all the other crap produced with copper, brass, pieforts, bimetals, etc.

It will be interesting to see how show medals perform going forward and how promoters adjust to collector backlash. 

Offline collectingcoins

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Re: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money
« Reply #143 on: August 17, 2017, 08:44:13 PM »
Welcome to the forum TU. 

I think the bigger picture that this thread has made very clear to me is that show medal promoters are taking advantage of collectors by issuing multiple varieties for the sole purpose to line their greedy pockets, while promoting themselves as ambassadors of the industry and friends to collectors.  This reminds me of Bernie Madoff being non-executive chairman of the NASDAQ, while running the biggest ponzi scheme in history.

Almost all collectors would agree that having just 1oz silver and 1oz gold distributed fairly at a show is a reasonable way to commemorative a show.  IMHO there is no need for all the other crap produced with copper, brass, pieforts, bimetals, etc.

It will be interesting to see how show medals perform going forward and how promoters adjust to collector backlash.

This is about the most poignant and clear post on this subject I've read.  Thank you.  It does appear all this 'crap' is a recent phenomena.  Until it is cleared up, and proven, I'm staying away from show pandas.  Thanks again for this thoughtful, concise and direct post.

Offline bender9876

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Re: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money
« Reply #144 on: August 18, 2017, 04:09:32 AM »
Thank you for all this information. Very interesting. Im sure this goes on with other show coins too. N26

Offline pandamonium

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Re: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money
« Reply #145 on: August 18, 2017, 12:42:45 PM »
Welcome to the forum TU. 

I think the bigger picture that this thread has made very clear to me is that show medal promoters are taking advantage of collectors by issuing multiple varieties for the sole purpose to line their greedy pockets, while promoting themselves as ambassadors of the industry and friends to collectors.  This reminds me of Bernie Madoff being non-executive chairman of the NASDAQ, while running the biggest ponzi scheme in history.

Almost all collectors would agree that having just 1oz silver and 1oz gold distributed fairly at a show is a reasonable way to commemorative a show.  IMHO there is no need for all the other crap produced with copper, brass, pieforts, bimetals, etc.

It will be interesting to see how show medals perform going forward and how promoters adjust to collector backlash. 




Arif;  I see you listed some very good gold pandas.      Are you overstocked or do you see a change such as a price drop in the market?......

Offline KeyDate1/2ozPandas

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Re: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money
« Reply #146 on: August 18, 2017, 04:25:53 PM »
For the last three years I have been reducing the volume (space required) of my collection, breaking up sets and keeping high numismatic items (premiums at least 50% above melt). 

Lately, I have decided setting up at shows is no longer a viable business model and will walk the talk and go to full online model for selling, which is why you are seeing more coins on ebay and my website.

Finally, with the supply of key date material dwindling in the US (except during April-May of this year, thanks to Goldsheet), I will start transitioning from 30% dealer/30% collector/40% investor to 10% dealer/30% collector/60% investor. 

Offline mazinger7000

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Re: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money
« Reply #147 on: August 18, 2017, 06:16:59 PM »
For the last three years I have been reducing the volume (space required) of my collection, breaking up sets and keeping high numismatic items (premiums at least 50% above melt). 

Lately, I have decided setting up at shows is no longer a viable business model and will walk the talk and go to full online model for selling, which is why you are seeing more coins on ebay and my website.

Finally, with the supply of key date material dwindling in the US (except during April-May of this year, thanks to Goldsheet), I will start transitioning from 30% dealer/30% collector/40% investor to 10% dealer/30% collector/60% investor. 

we are officially off topic now, but will you still attend the bigger domestic shows like long beach, or cease attending and just do business online?

Online PandaCollector

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Re: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money
« Reply #148 on: August 18, 2017, 06:59:24 PM »
we are officially off topic now, but will you still attend the bigger domestic shows like long beach, or cease attending and just do business online?

Arif is not the only coin dealer who has abandoned setting up at coin shows, but still attends them. Adam Biagi is another example and I bump into many others at shows. "Where's your table I ask?" "I don't have one is the reply." Attendance at American shows, in general, is low enough that the shows are marginal business propositions. Tables are a major expense. They remain very useful for buying, less so for selling. Also, if a dealer ends up trading mostly with other dealers at a show, what's the point of having a table?

Asian coin shows, which are  often heavily attended, are a different story altogether.

I expect to see Arif at future coin shows as he walks the floor.

Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
China Pricepedia
The Gold & Silver Panda Coin Buyer’s Guide 3
www.pandacollector.com

Offline KeyDate1/2ozPandas

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Re: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money
« Reply #149 on: August 18, 2017, 07:17:04 PM »
I will still walk the first day of the show a few times a year, but not set up.  90%+ of my business is with other dealers or pre-arranged with collectors and can be concluded in one day.

Take the ANA for example, it is 5 day show or 7 days if you include the pre-show.  The cost of table is around $2000, hotel/car/parking is around $200/day and air $400, so rough total is $3400 plus 6 days of  you life.  If you could accomplish 90% of the transactions in 1 day walking around your cost is like $500 or 15% of what it costs to set up, plus you have 5 days of your life to do other things, like take pictures for ebay, play sport, start another business, volunteer, etc. 

Even the mainland dealers who come to buy only attend the setup day and 1st day of the show at Long Beach, you will never see them on Friday or Saturday.