Author Topic: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money  (Read 6867 times)

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Offline pandaberlin

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Re: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money
« Reply #105 on: August 14, 2017, 09:28:09 AM »

3: Panda medals that are presented EXCLUSIVELY to interest groups including dealers, sponsors, friends, family, politicians, employees etc with regular collectors not having a REASONABLE chance of obtaining these medals at REASONABLE prices are NOT Show Pandas. Furthermore, they shouldn't be medals recognized by TPGs such as NGC and PCGS for inclusion in official collector recognition programs such as the Coin Registry and other programs. These are not medals that are available to the collecting public.


Without being rude, but this would take away the Show Panda status of most of the Panda medals, including the different varieties of the Berlin World Money Fair Show Panda - from my point of view, the Copper and Brass and Tri-Metal varieties were just a way to please friends and family of certain dealers, but no ordinary collectors items. As a regular collector, you would have to pay hundreds of Euros for that and most collectors don't afford 1000 euros to buy a brass Panda...is this how it's supposed to be?

Offline KeyDate1/2ozPandas

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Re: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money
« Reply #106 on: August 14, 2017, 01:05:45 PM »
The "show panda" designation is something NGC puts on a label, nothing more or less.  All we are saying is NGC should limit the term "show panda" for only those coins that attendees at the show can buy, while all others are just show medals or show tokens on NGC labels.  Of course 10-20 years from now new collectors will not aware of these discussion and they will probably seek the lowest mintage coins and buy all the promo pieces, similar to 1988 brass HK show dragon coin, those were freebies and now people promote them as valuable show pandas.

Regardless of what NGC, dealers, distributors, promoters, sponsors or authors call them, retail public has the right to vote with their dollars, if you buy something at a large spread more of the same type of medals will be produced to enrich the sponsor, if you don't buy sponsors will move on to something else, it all comes down to supply and demand. 

Same goes for private mint issues, if enough people buy to make it profitable for sponsors they will make more of them, if no one buys they will stop using those private mints or create mintage traps to lure newbie buyers.  For example, rather than create a medal with 5000 mintage you create 50 different medals with 100 mintage each, the extra die cost is easily paid up by the those unsuspecting buyers.

Offline Jens

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Re: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money
« Reply #107 on: August 14, 2017, 02:11:55 PM »
Without being rude, but this would take away the Show Panda status of most of the Panda medals, including the different varieties of the Berlin World Money Fair Show Panda - from my point of view, the Copper and Brass and Tri-Metal varieties were just a way to please friends and family of certain dealers, but no ordinary collectors items. As a regular collector, you would have to pay hundreds of Euros for that and most collectors don't afford 1000 euros to buy a brass Panda...is this how it's supposed to be?

Let me tell you a little story.
Once upon a time in germany, people started to collect phone cards when they were introduced back in the days.
At first everybody was happy because there were only a few official issues that everyone could collect.
After a while private firms were offered the chance to pay for their own design phonecards.
At first this was seen as a nice new addition and people started also collecting those, even if it meant that they had to spent more money for a complete collection.
A few years later unscrupulous firms started to sell these phone cards at ridiculous prices so nobody could ever hope to achieve a collection that was even remotely complete.
Today you can buy these cards for 1-2 euros, but nobody really wants to, the market is dead.

If you try to milk collectors dry by forcing them to buy super rare super expensive items if they want to be complete the market will sooner or later collapse and the official mints should be smarter than that.
The above example isn't the only one (Complete collection of french euro coins, anyone?)

 

Offline PandaCollector

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Re: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money
« Reply #108 on: August 14, 2017, 04:01:10 PM »
Without being rude, but this would take away the Show Panda status of most of the Panda medals, including the different varieties of the Berlin World Money Fair Show Panda -

Yes, it would. That is what everyone I've asked about this, like Clark, Arif and others, think is necessary. Souvenirs that are struck solely for friends and business colleagues that are never sold at a coin show shouldn't be called Show Pandas. They are something else.

Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
China Pricepedia
The Gold & Silver Panda Coin Buyer’s Guide 3
www.pandacollector.com

Offline KeepOnTrying!

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Re: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money
« Reply #109 on: August 14, 2017, 05:00:26 PM »
Let me tell you a little story.
Once upon a time in germany, people started to collect phone cards when they were introduced back in the days.
At first everybody was happy because there were only a few official issues that everyone could collect.
After a while private firms were offered the chance to pay for their own design phonecards.
At first this was seen as a nice new addition and people started also collecting those, even if it meant that they had to spent more money for a complete collection.
A few years later unscrupulous firms started to sell these phone cards at ridiculous prices so nobody could ever hope to achieve a collection that was even remotely complete.
Today you can buy these cards for 1-2 euros, but nobody really wants to, the market is dead.

If you try to milk collectors dry by forcing them to buy super rare super expensive items if they want to be complete the market will sooner or later collapse and the official mints should be smarter than that.
The above example isn't the only one (Complete collection of french euro coins, anyone?)

 

+1 for points made  N31
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Offline KeyDate1/2ozPandas

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Re: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money
« Reply #110 on: August 14, 2017, 05:12:24 PM »
Thanks for the phone card story, I will add that to my list of markets ruined by sponsors looking to make a quick buck of inexperienced buyers.  My favorites are sports cards during 89-92, the number of issues went up almost 10 fold and following years market tanked 70-90%.  Beanie Babies craze in 96-99, too many varieties started coming out and issue prices by distributors killed the market.  Internet IPOs in late 99 to early 00, initial pop on stocks was 100%-300%, then a year later stocks tanked 70%-100%.  Currently, ICO are the latest craze, supply is coming in so fast that in months or year it will crash. 

Will see in the coming year the true colors of sponsors, will they continue to dump many issues laced with mintage traps or will they go back to a single distributor model with 1-2 issues per show that are available to everyone.   I think a lot of damage has already been done in the last two years, I don't know if it is reversible. 

Offline Championhk

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Re: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money
« Reply #111 on: August 14, 2017, 09:08:52 PM »
There seems to be quite a bit of discussions after the Ana about show pandas which I think is extremely good about this topic.

Perhaps I can give some input on this subject not only from looking from the outside but also include insign from the inside. As I recall I had predict some issues for the Ana pandas as I was at the Shanghai mint last week to meet with the designer yu min and later with officials for lunch , this topic came up.

Due to the approval process there were many issues for the Ana panda so only a small number was delivered to the show. MCM actually had their shanghai staff hand carry the pandas to make sure they  will arrive in Denver. I went to the baseball game with the staff member in Denver and saw him and the head of company with ngc chairman mark at the Smithsonian national numismatic collection event in Denver .

Again the trimetal issue cause many die problems  breaking both pairs of dies after only 200. This is main reason we do NOT sale the trimetal product giving away 200 at the 2016 ana and 500 at the world money fair Berlin this year. At the world money fair the trimetal were given away to many visitors including kids who visited our booth and at the coin of the year event award ceremony to attendees as a gift from designer yu min as he could not atttend the ceremony so the Chinese embassy received the award for him. This is the only time a gift from a designer was distributed at a coty award ceremony , but since he is only one of four lifetime award winners , it is a special situation.

Previously 2016 Berlin copper pandas were distributed to attendees of the Otto beh Chinese dies ceremony at world money fair which I purchased from the otto beh family thru kunker auctions and donated to the mortizberg museum in Halle.

I feel strongly that market for show pandas and any numismatic product is determined by design ,  production quality and supply. With every show panda product we spent many months with the designer and the mint to produce the best product we can. Often using the latest minting technology and working with leading numismatic experts to review the design. We also support the the release of the panda with special exhibits and events like the Otto beh Macau special exhibit and Howard Bowker special exhibit in Macau were the plasters are loaned by the Shanghai and Shenyang mint to put on display and also attendance in Macau of Shenyang mint designer at the opening event of the special release of the medal.  All this add much higher cost of releasing a show panda , but bring much more interest to the issue locally.

We do NOT release show pandas for small shows with small public attendance and limited influence purely to jump on the show panda wagon .

We spent much effort to rebuild interest in show pandas after the recent market difficulties of other marketers of show panda programs. I had a discussion with my German partner kunker with the head of mdm the largest numismatic company in Europe about the 2016 world money fair panda , he told us the last one was so poorly promoted only a few sold at the show and he was not interested and discouraged us from moving ahead. We went ahead and it has been much better than we had expected with show distribution and sale at 50 percent of the mintage after only two years.

Also with the issues of the private mint , certain private mints makes many products for government mints and china gold with the names of the mint and china gold on the product as their production quality is up to or beyond the mint's standards. Certain Chinese mints outsource their production almost entirely to private mints , so how do someone judge which one's are actually produced at the mint facility, perhaps the only way to tell is to have an actual first strike on site of the mint? With the recent change in policies where the mint do not put their name on the product now this makes it even harder to know?

Does the experts producing information have information and reporting directly from the mint before they put this information to the public? When information are just speculations from the outside it makes it more difficult for the collector to know the actual information provided is useful. Perhaps ngc can help us in determining this issue, I had a visit with ngc and ncs president david camire to a private mint recently in Shanghai , he was also surprise of all the mint products being produced there and they had newer equipment than even the government mints! Perhaps just a certificate with a mint name is not enough to really know where is was produced?

With the current polices of the government mints , it makes it much more difficult to prodcue an interesting show panda due to the restrictions of design , the designer now has also to sign off personally on copyright on his designs and also can not use certain terms friendship without ministry's approval and past panda designs. We used the 1983 and 1998 panda designs as basis of Macau and Berlin panda that is probably no longer possible.

I think the best period for the show pandas may be behind us so perhaps best for collectors now  to focus on these issues while they are available such as yu min's macau, Ana, and world money fair pandas. It will be much harder to live up to these standards with the current situation which we hope will change in the future. Regards, michael


Offline PandaCollector

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Re: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money
« Reply #112 on: August 14, 2017, 09:23:54 PM »

Will see in the coming year the true colors of sponsors, will they continue to dump many issues laced with mintage traps or will they go back to a single distributor model with 1-2 issues per show that are available to everyone.   I think a lot of damage has already been done in the last two years, I don't know if it is reversible. 

I am optimistic that we will see fewer off-metal Show Pandas or variants from official Chinese mints in the foreseeable future. I cannot offer any insight into private mints. I hope that distinguishing between Show issues and medals with show designs will help collectors and support demand and interest in true Show Pandas.

Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
China Pricepedia
The Gold & Silver Panda Coin Buyer’s Guide 3
www.pandacollector.com

Offline Championhk

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Re: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money
« Reply #113 on: August 14, 2017, 09:47:42 PM »
Another thought for show pandas designation perhaps that significant percentage of the show pandas ( 33 1/3 percent to 50 percent ) offered are released locally or sold at the show , some issues are purely just for marketing companies like the smaller show panda issues like last year's small regional state show where very limited sales were at the show and most pre-sold to marketing companies? I think the person arranging this project did a special version and did quite well selling these " show panda " product to collectors but aftermarket prices for these pandas show are much lower than release price , they were not up to the standards of the show pandas like Ana Anaheim panda where the gold one ounce still trades at over usd 5,000 on ebay which is way above the usd 1891 show release price. These issues should not be designated at show pandas as most were sold elsewhere and only the distributors profited from a product with limited interest? Show they be label as special pandas.

It is just a little concerning that people who are bring up issues should also let collectors know they are active market players , it is like stock pickers letting you know they have these stocks in their portfolio before discussing the stocks. It is. It is Kind of sad when so call researchers and market experts are active participants in the marketing of the products they cover. When companies are paying these people large fees to cover these subjects , do you really get the all the information that helps collectors make decisions , i think it would serve forum members and collectors a service if these relationships are released before the coverage so we can make a fair judgement of the information provided. When special information is produced for these marketing companies and large fees pay will we get fair coverage of these Products by the person with these relationships? Just something to think about?



Our 2016 Macau and 2017 Berlin , 50 percent or more of the mintage was sold to local coin society members or at the show?

Offline KeepOnTrying!

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Re: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money
« Reply #114 on: August 14, 2017, 10:06:22 PM »
Another thought for show pandas designation perhaps that significant percentage of the show pandas ( 33 1/3 percent to 50 percent ) offered are released locally or sold at the show , some issues are purely just for marketing companies like the smaller show panda issues like last year's small regional state show where very limited sales were at the show and most pre-sold to marketing companies? I think the person arranging this project did a special version and did quite well selling these " show panda " product to collectors but aftermarket prices for these pandas show are much lower than release price , they were not up to the standards of the show pandas like Ana Anaheim panda where the gold one ounce still trades at over usd 5,000 on ebay which is way above the usd 1891 show release price. These issues should not be designated at show pandas as most were sold elsewhere and only the distributors profited from a product with limited interest? Show they be label as special pandas.

It is just a little concerning that people who are bring up issues should also let collectors know they are active market players , it is like stock pickers letting you know they have these stocks in their portfolio before discussing the stocks. It is. It is Kind of sad when so call researchers and market experts are active participants in the marketing of the products they cover. When companies are paying these people large fees to cover these subjects , do you really get the all the information that helps collectors make decisions , i think it would serve forum members and collectors a service if these relationships are released before the coverage so we can make a fair judgement of the information provided. When special information is produced for these marketing companies and large fees pay will we get fair coverage of these Products by the person with these relationships? Just something to think about?



Our 2016 Macau and 2017 Berlin , 50 percent or more of the mintage was sold to local coin society members or at the show?

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Offline Championhk

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Re: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money
« Reply #115 on: August 14, 2017, 10:19:05 PM »
I think when people has these special relationships they should let people know or sometimes information presented are more like infomercials . It is kind of sad people presenting issues are also the same people who benefited from these relationships? I think it is just fair if the collectors here can get a fair picture of what the relationships are before making a decision?

Offline pandaberlin

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Re: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money
« Reply #116 on: August 15, 2017, 01:43:28 AM »
If you try to milk collectors dry by forcing them to buy super rare super expensive items if they want to be complete the market will sooner or later collapse and the official mints should be smarter than that.
The above example isn't the only one (Complete collection of french euro coins, anyone?)

I want to give Jens 100 points for his last post, which is exactly what I have been thinking when re-considering everything that has been written yet.

As "Championhk" implied that the people who are criticizing the Pandas medals are driving in fact their own agenda and making money with Pandas, I can make very clear: I am not a dealer. I am a coin collector for around 40 years now. I started with China coins when MDM was the exclusive distributor in Germany. I love coins and I especially love China coins, but what happens with the recent Panda medals, makes me sick.

The story of children being presented with Panda medals at the WMF in Berlin is quite cure actually, but I seriously doubt that. In fact, me and two friends were at your booth where all of the special varieties were on display. We asked if it was possible to get a tri-metallic medal and were told: "They are not sold."

I have so many questions: Why is there even a Tri-Metallic version of the Berlin Panda if it is not available to the general public? Why do - all of a sudden - so many varieties pop up after the show? What about the 15 Gramm Silver High Relief Concave WMF Panda? Or the 16 Gramm Gold version? Or the 50 Gramm special edition? None of these were available at the show, all of these are only available at MCM in the USA for horrendous prices. And what about the Gold, Brass, Copper versions of the Berlin Panda? How should any ordinary collector have a chance to optain these without paying thousands of Euros?

Dear "Championhk" ... maybe you see now that you are not speaking with professional dealers, but with passionate collectors who are dissappointed.

I think that in another forum post, you told about the latest Panda medal in Germany and portrayed is as a non-profit project to promote friendship. You also told that the first strike medals were distributed for free to the attendees of the First Strike ceremony. Two of my business partners attended the ceremony. This event was not open to the public, it was just hand-picked VIPs and some friends and family (I went under this ticket because one of my best friends works at the Berlin mint) and no one there received anything, no silver or brass or NGC graded medals.

I am pretty sure that all of this stuff will show up on eBay soon and make a few people very happy who really make money with projects like these ;-)

From my point of view, anybody who buys the medals will be disappointed in the end ... just look at the Munich Panda of 2017. It was sold for 200 euros and the ebay value in europe is 150 euros now - with a mintage of 2017 pieces. The Berlin 2017 WMF Panda prices are also going down. The new Sino-German silver medal has a mintage of 3000 pieces ... so let me guess which direction the prices will take very soon.

Offline Championhk

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Re: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money
« Reply #117 on: August 15, 2017, 02:52:01 AM »
Hello Berlinpanda :

I am glad you are bring up these issues.

For Berlin money fair we took a corner booth to pass out 1500 Macau coins for free to people with coin albums . We did not put any items for sale at our table. The table cost us over 2,000 euros and we hired a hostess since we did not speak german.

Yes we did not offer any trimetal for sale at the table but we did give away many of them at the table to kids and people with the coin albums and at the ceremony, I am sorry you did not get one . Yes i think if we offered the trimetal for  sale I am certain we could have sold many of them. But the trimetal is a test issue at the Shanghai mint , there is production problems so we just give them away as samples in cooperation with the Shanghai mint.

As for the Sino German medals we had planned to give away to attendeee one of the medals , but the director of the mint dr Andréas Schikora vetoed both kunker and I as he felt that the Chinese embassy should distribute the medals first  , we sent 800 out of the 1,000 sets to Germany , the Chinese embassy had originally planned to get 500 sets and 300 sets goes to Berlin mint , Künker and champion. But the Chinese embassy made the request to move that number to 700 sets as the turnout for the panda ceremony was much larger than expected and the Chinese delegation was also larger. We are very greatfyul dr Schikora and kunker all agree to split the 100 sets and give up the 200 additional sets to the Chinese embassy , due to dr Schikora's policy , no medals will be given out until after the Chinese embassy has a chance to distribute the medals first. Kunker went on summer vacation after the ceremony it is expected they will sent out medals to people attending the ceremony in September. Since you have a friend at the Berlin mint you can confirmed this with him and dr Schikora . Also we worked out a deal with Chinese embassy for the dr schikora and the Berlin mint to make their own version of 1,000 mintage with the same german Hoyer design for sale at a reasonable price of 10 euro on the Berlin mint website right after the ceremony. As a matter of fact I purchased 100 of these to give away to friends and panda collectors back home.

 Also for the purpose of facts we turn down An extremely large order from a leading german numismatic marketing company for our medal , the order was more than double our official mintage of 3,000.  This company later went on to produce 20,000 of the Sino German medals without us in Germany and also in China! 

I am extremely pleased that you are avid panda collector and points out the various issues , don't you think it is better to get the full story instead of getting incomplete stories from people not directly involved? We are not always right and we can learn from each other, but you have to understand the various different factors involved in making decisions about product developememts in today's market.

Offline Championhk

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Re: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money
« Reply #118 on: August 15, 2017, 03:05:20 AM »
Also due to security of the attendance of the Chinese embassdor and his german counterpart This could not have been a open event , also the Berlin mint already reduced its security by allowimg people to roam around the minting machines , we actually saw other coins and medals being struck.we went back the next day as coin week charles Morgan want. To shoot some Machines we could not even get on the floor without the director Sochikora being at the mint.

Also I did invite some panda collectors like golden lord and his girl friend from Bavaria to the event but they found it too far to go and also many people were on summer holidays like mr Hoyer the designer. We had coins weekly , coin week , and reps from munzen revue and coin couch attending to provide to up to date coverage of the event for german, European , and us collectros . we had people attending from the us and Shanghai tom the event.

Offline pandaberlin

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Re: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money
« Reply #119 on: August 15, 2017, 03:08:48 AM »
Hi Championhk. Thank you for trying to clarify some of the issues. But I think that your answer just shows again the core of the problem: Most of the medals are distributed to VIPs, friends and family or at least there is a very unclear distribution policy - at lest the general public does not have the chance to obtain one for their collection.

That could, as you have confirmed in your last post, also be seen at the WMF 2017 with the Tri-Metallic Panda (giving them to children might be nice, but what about people who don't have children?). The COTY ceremony and the dinner, where the Brass and Copper versions were distributed, were not open to the public, as far as I know. In fact, I have the impression that those medals are a special scheme to reward certain people - but the ones who pay will be the ordinary collectors who try to have a complete collection. And I feel very frustrated to see that the ordinary collector always comes last in the line.

And still, so many questions remain open. I am especially interested why you offer two versions of the Panda at a show - Berlin World Money Fair - and distribute around ten different versions afterwards. What about the 15 Gramm Silver High Relief Concave WMF Panda? Or the 16 Gramm Gold version? Or the 50 Gramm special edition? This migt be fun for VIPs, but it is a mess for ordinary collectors.

And without being rude, I think that there are many irregularities ... I think at some other occasion, you told that all of the Brass Berlin medals were given for this ominous VIP zoo ceremony - but weren't some of the brass medals put of for lottery at the ANA show at your table? You should see that your information causes at least some kind of irritation.