Author Topic: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money  (Read 9304 times)

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Offline PandaWill

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hey guys,

Thought I would share with you the designs for the Panda commemorative that we will be selling at the ANA show in Denver this August.  They haven't been minted just yet, but here is a pretty good idea of what they will look like.

There is going to be a 30 gram Silver and a Tri-Metal, both will have a mintage of 888 pieces and come with certificates.  They have the S mintmark from Shanghai Mint. 

I'm not taking orders for these just yet, but I will be soon.  I'll let you guys know when, in case any of you are interested.

Will
Panda America
800-472-6327 x230


Offline KeepOnTrying!

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What are three metals in the trimetallic show panda?
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Offline PandaWill

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What are three metals in the trimetallic show panda?

copper nickel, brass, and copper

Offline bonke

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Will

I lived in the Denver metro area for many, many years.  I do not recognize the mountains shown on your new ANA medals.  Are they based on an actual picture of Denver?  An artists concept?

Mark Bonke

Offline PandaOrLunar

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copper nickel, brass, and copper
My first reaction was gold, silver, and copper.  Oh well.

Offline Pandaguy

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Looks like the tri-metal version has set up a bulls-eye target on the Panda. We are trying to SAVE Pandas, not kill them!

Offline Devlin

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Instead of bamboo, the Panda should be in front of some marijuana plants.

Offline PandaOrLunar

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Wouldn't mind seeing one made from colored gold such as yellow, white, and rose gold 😁

Offline PandaWill

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Will

I lived in the Denver metro area for many, many years.  I do not recognize the mountains shown on your new ANA medals.  Are they based on an actual picture of Denver?  An artists concept?

Mark Bonke

hey Mark,

the mountains will be based off actual mountains in Colorado, however not necessarily in Denver.   these drawings I posted aren't the final designs, they are just an idea of what the commemoratives will look like in terms of general theme and layout.  the process of getting these minted through the China Mint normally goes through many changes and different phases before being finalized.

thanks!

Offline 1003

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It is only 40 days from the show opening. If it is still not the final look yet, it probably means the design and minting process is quite fast.

Offline PandaWill

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Re: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money
« Reply #10 on: June 30, 2017, 02:29:56 PM »
hi guys,

These are now ready for pre-order.  Delivery will be after August 1st.  The images shown on our website are the final line drawings.  The Pandas will be minted in July, in time for the ANA show in Denver.  Here is the link to purchase:

http://www.pandaamerica.com/sresult.asp?keyword=denver&sortby=priceasc

Any questions, let me know!

Will
Panda America
800-472-6327 x230

Offline bender9876

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Re: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money
« Reply #11 on: June 30, 2017, 06:24:31 PM »
Will, Will you also sell graded one,s? At Panda Coins? Thanks Jim

Offline KeepOnTrying!

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Re: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money
« Reply #12 on: June 30, 2017, 10:10:54 PM »
Hi. Do you have any information on the piedfort silver medal? Thanks.
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Offline collectingcoins

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Re: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money
« Reply #13 on: July 09, 2017, 12:24:57 PM »
Hello! I'm new to this site. I love pandas, and coins in general.  I thought I'd take the dive and join. I'm curious if this piece will be double sealed?  Thx.

Offline bullionblog.eu

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Re: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money
« Reply #15 on: July 10, 2017, 08:56:49 AM »
Hmmm.  So what is the official show medal?  I'm confused.  Are these privately minted? 

Offline pandamonium

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Re: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money
« Reply #16 on: July 10, 2017, 11:23:10 AM »
Nice medal.   How many new issue, low mint medals does that make for this year 2017?....

Offline collectingcoins

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Re: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money
« Reply #17 on: July 10, 2017, 11:32:18 AM »
I'm not sure, why do you ask?  Are there a lot?  I was confused by MCM's issue, and the one from PandaAmerica.  Are they both official show medals?  Is one preferred over the other?  5000 mintage for the MCM one?  That strikes me as a lot?

Offline pandamonium

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Re: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money
« Reply #18 on: July 10, 2017, 01:40:56 PM »
Last year it was posted there were 22 new issue, low mint medals struck by the Mint.       Wonder how many will be struck this year?     I was told that China Mint will strike as many as there are paying customers.     I do not collect new issue, low mint medals.......

Offline KeepOnTrying!

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Re: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money
« Reply #19 on: July 10, 2017, 01:47:54 PM »
Quite a lot of medals are being cranked out now by all sorts of entities. If the intention is to have low cost mementos of these meetings/conventions and other landmarks that's fine. But they are being pushed in some quarters albeit quietly as investment vehicles with the usual caveats. It is difficult to see how most of these medals will retain or grow their numismatic premium except possibly for a select few that cannot be easily identified at this stage. And the mark up on them does not make sense at times. Just an opinion from a medal collector!
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Offline 1003

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Re: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money
« Reply #20 on: July 10, 2017, 06:25:25 PM »
It is unusual both PandaAmerica and MCM are offering medals for the ANA with different designs, but all minted by Shanghai mint. MCM claims as the sole distributor in the article. I think the MCM design with the lamp looks more consistent with the 2016 ANA Anaheim issues. If there are two 1oz silver medals, one commissioned by PandaAmerica, one by MCM for a single show, that's too many. I do not consider it ethical for Shanghai mint to take both orders.

Offline pandamonium

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Re: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money
« Reply #21 on: July 10, 2017, 06:44:30 PM »
Hopefully it will bring attention to early year medals.     That is where the value will be in the long run.    Yes, i know the Chinese favor valuable coins over so so medals but in the past the opinion was the Chinese love OMP and would not grade.    Today they are grading so medal acceptance is in the cards.     Early year medals should become popular as the MCC market eventually breaks out again......

Offline collectingcoins

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Re: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money
« Reply #22 on: July 10, 2017, 11:26:25 PM »
This is very confusing.  I went back and tried to look at a year where there were two different types of Pandas at the same ANA show, I didn't find any? I'd have to imagine that they are both sanctioned by ANA, because they are using their name?  I wish I could be a fly on the wall at the conference to listen in on which one is more popular and preferred.  One has a mintage of 888 vs 5000 and $99.00 vs. ??  I'm going to hold off on making any purchases.  Thanks for sharing the links.

Offline PandaCollector

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Re: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money
« Reply #23 on: July 11, 2017, 08:44:37 AM »
I think the MCM design with the lamp looks more consistent with the 2016 ANA Anaheim issues.

Good observation.

Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
China Pricepedia
The Gold & Silver Panda Coin Buyer’s Guide 3
www.pandacollector.com

Offline PandaCollector

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Re: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money
« Reply #24 on: July 11, 2017, 08:50:31 AM »
This is very confusing.  I went back and tried to look at a year where there were two different types of Pandas at the same ANA show, I didn't find any? I'd have to imagine that they are both sanctioned by ANA, because they are using their name?  I wish I could be a fly on the wall at the conference to listen in on which one is more popular and preferred. 

A fly might hear many interesting conversations. Yes, both releases are official and from the Shanghai Mint. I think this will attract a lot of, hopefully good, attention in Denver.

Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
China Pricepedia
The Gold & Silver Panda Coin Buyer’s Guide 3
www.pandacollector.com




Offline bonke

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Re: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money
« Reply #25 on: July 11, 2017, 10:51:20 AM »
Peter

I noticed that one of the 2017 ANA medals has "SHANGHAI MINT" on the face of the medal.  Is this unusual?  I collect modern Chinese medals and I do not remember owning a medal with the mint name prominently displayed.  Any response or information will be appreciated.

Mark Bonke

ps. I remember all of the discussions about Small Date, Large Date, Large Date with serif, plastic sealing patterns, etc.  All of these discussions were attempts to determine the mint and to identify a variety.

Offline 1003

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Re: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money
« Reply #26 on: July 11, 2017, 11:19:19 AM »
Not unusual. The 2016 ANA Anaheim medals have those Chinese characters on the lamp side. The 2016 and 2017 world money issues also have that if you check the pictures. 

Offline 1003

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Re: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money
« Reply #27 on: July 11, 2017, 11:20:49 AM »
@bonke Perhaps you focus on early years medals.

Offline bonke

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Re: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money
« Reply #28 on: July 11, 2017, 12:27:38 PM »
1003

Thank you for the information. 

Obviously, I have not been following the recent medal releases in any detail.  If I remember correctly, I bought the 2016 gold medal commemorating the new Hong Kong Coin Show, the 2016 bimetal medal & gold medals commemorating the coin show in Honolulu and the 2017 piefort gold medal commemorating the Berlin coin show.  I seem to focus on the design, condition and mintage.  Still, I am overwhelmed by the number of different medals commemorating coin shows in gold, silver, brass, copper, bi-metals, trim-metals, etc.  I could never collect all of them and, so, I seem to ignore many of the medals and the events which they are commemorating. 

Thanks again.

Mark Bonke

Offline PandaWill

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Re: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money
« Reply #29 on: July 11, 2017, 12:41:12 PM »
hi guys,

I should be getting the first sample of the ANA Denver Pandas later this week, or early next week. 

When I get a sample, I'll post it here so you can see the final finished product.  I am excited to see how it turns out!

I did just receive the boxes for the 30 gram Silver.  They came out nice; they have a white sleeve with the official ANA logo on it, along with the logo printed on a mint colored box.

Here is what they look like: 


Offline 1003

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Re: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money
« Reply #30 on: July 11, 2017, 01:21:57 PM »
Mark,

I agree quite some people, my self included, are overwhelmed by the many medals for various conventions, especially 2016-2017. The thing I disliked most is that very often they are not clear about how many different sizes and materials exist for a single convention. Often they reveal some new pieces long after the show ended. The 2017 Berlin has some 8 gram gold and 16 gram gold/silver piedforts announced several months after the show. I think the bottom line is to announce early how many different issues will there be for a single show and let people buy their preferred design and metal. 

Offline 1003

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Re: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money
« Reply #31 on: July 11, 2017, 01:23:30 PM »
Will,

The light colored boxes look much better than previous Shanghai mint maroon boxes.

Offline collectingcoins

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Re: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money
« Reply #32 on: July 11, 2017, 01:33:34 PM »
I just did some research on the Anaheim medals, and I see that they had 4 different types.  Seems like a lot?  I really like that big panda on the Denver piece. I just noticed that only 2 are made available for purchase now, and then another one or two different styles are available at the show?  How many different versions will modern coin mart have?  Mark, I happen to agree with you, it seems like a lot of shows, and different types of medals being introduced in a short period of time. Makes my head dizzy with confusion.  I wonder if it is because more and more people are on a panda craze? Is there a point when there is market over saturation, and people lose interest?  Will, I like the look of the boxes. I'm assuming we will have to wait until the show to see what the real show medal looks like?  Thank you.

Offline 1003

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Re: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money
« Reply #33 on: July 11, 2017, 02:49:09 PM »
Anaheim has at least 6. Silver 1oz, 50 g, 12 oz; gold 1oz, 50 g; a trimetal with a bird. Maybe even more. 2017 berlin has more than 10 I believe.

Offline collectingcoins

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Re: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money
« Reply #34 on: July 11, 2017, 04:07:49 PM »
10?! No way. That's crazy.  When did all this change? It used to be where there were 2 or 3 pandas based on what I've gathered. 10 is a bit extreme? 6 is extreme enough! Perplexed. Looks like Denver will have a minimum of 6. As mentioned, at what point to people get exhausted trying to keep up? Some already have.  I think these show organizers have to a better job approving and limiting what is acceptable? But if people are buying them, it may be a little difficult to stop?

Offline Jens

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Re: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money
« Reply #35 on: July 11, 2017, 04:15:32 PM »
Collectingcoins, i think we already are at the point were the market is over-saturated and people lose interest.
Not only do we have lots of show pandas and other commemorative pandas but also various panda medal series from the chinese mints.
I don't see any of these go up in value at the moment so i think it is already too much. There's only so many pandas people can buy...
I also said it on another forum and i'll repeat it here, i don't think it is a good idea to mint ultra low mintage varieties in different metals and give them to vips, members, dealers or best buddies so that they can make a guaranteed profit.
I think collectors like to have complete sets and taking away the hope of ever owning a complete set for reasonable prices right from the start is counter-productive (just my humble opinion, though, others might find these rarities exciting)

Offline 1003

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Re: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money
« Reply #36 on: July 11, 2017, 04:47:04 PM »
I can list the sizes and materials if you are interested. Obviously, I need to refer to the catalog I got from the company who commissioned many recent year medals. 10 is more than I can list right now but that is the case for 2017 Berlin.

Offline 1003

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Re: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money
« Reply #37 on: July 11, 2017, 04:52:41 PM »
For collectors in search of complete sets, it is devastating because you don't know what are out there even if you have the budget. I don't see they even have a complete plan of what to issue. You can expect follow-up issues after the show ends.

Offline collectingcoins

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Re: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money
« Reply #38 on: July 11, 2017, 05:22:56 PM »
This is really discouraging for a new collector.  Maybe I should just stick with bullion pandas. At they are cheap, and have a face value. Or perhaps I should look into earlier pieces that don't have 10 to a set.

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Re: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money
« Reply #39 on: July 11, 2017, 06:07:20 PM »
What is most discouraging is actually you don't know what they will add later. Show pandas coming long after the show ends should not be welcome, IMHO.

Offline pandamonium

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Re: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money
« Reply #40 on: July 11, 2017, 07:03:00 PM »
It is obvious the numbers of new issue, low mint medals are diluted or over saturated w/ many, many more on the way.      Not to sound redundant but for me early issue medals will eventually reign supreme even though the designs/quality may be so so in comparison to new issue.    (I do like ALL the new issue designs.)   82 gold panda medals, 84 to 89 HK Expo silver panda medals, plus many more.     The best will be those by the Grandfather of medals......Feng Yunming (my biased opinion).....featured on Fwang's translation blog.....

Offline PandaCollector

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Re: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money
« Reply #41 on: July 11, 2017, 08:30:13 PM »
What is most discouraging is actually you don't know what they will add later. Show pandas coming long after the show ends should not be welcome, IMHO.

I am trying to decide if a Panda that is issued after a show ends should be classified as a Show Panda, or as a Panda medal that has a show design. Everyone's views on this are welcomed. Thanks!

Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
China Pricepedia
The Gold & Silver Panda Coin Buyer’s Guide 3
www.pandacollector.com


Offline collectingcoins

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Re: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money
« Reply #42 on: July 11, 2017, 09:01:13 PM »
I know I'm new here and to coins in general, but that doesn't seem to make sense?  When does the line ever stop? Can they do it 10 years later. Seems a little scary to me as a new collector of this stuff. Has this kind of thing happened before? If so, when? Thank you.

Offline 1003

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Re: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money
« Reply #43 on: July 11, 2017, 09:14:11 PM »
2016 Anaheim has 9, silver 1 oz, 50 g, 12 oz; gold 1 oz, 50 g; a trimetal, trimetal piedfort, copper piedfort, brass piedfort.

2017 Berlin has 12, silver 1 oz, 8 g, 16 g, 50 g; gold 1 oz, 8 g, 16 g; trimetal, trimetal piedfort; copper piedfort, brass piedfort; copper gold glided trial.

Those may not be complete lists. Just too many. I am surprised that Anaheim has 9, originally I could only recall 6.

Offline 1003

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Re: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money
« Reply #44 on: July 11, 2017, 09:17:04 PM »
I think it is better not try to complete the sets, some are not easily accessible. I only buy those not with hefty premiums.

Offline collectingcoins

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Re: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money
« Reply #45 on: July 11, 2017, 10:10:33 PM »
Wow! Where did you find all those variations for the Anaheim?!  That's just too many. They must have had minted some afterwards.

Offline PandaCollector

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Re: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money
« Reply #46 on: July 11, 2017, 11:38:52 PM »
I know I'm new here and to coins in general, but that doesn't seem to make sense?  When does the line ever stop? Can they do it 10 years later. Seems a little scary to me as a new collector of this stuff. Has this kind of thing happened before? If so, when? Thank you.

The mintage can't ever be increased beyond what is on the COA. In most cases the total mintage is produced in the initial run and that is that.

Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
China Pricepedia
The Gold & Silver Panda Coin Buyer’s Guide 3
www.pandacollector.com


Offline KeyDate1/2ozPandas

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Re: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money
« Reply #47 on: July 12, 2017, 02:45:11 AM »
Wow! Where did you find all those variations for the Anaheim?!  That's just too many. They must have had minted some afterwards.

At the 2016 ANA show the release 1oz gold, 1oz silver and 12oz silver to the public.  Then at private dinner they gave away a brass and copper.  Then a few weeks later Govmint got their production of 50g gold and 50g silver.  The trimetals I don't remember.  Sometimes the mint has production issues and medals can't be all ready for show distribution, the 12oz silver had a lot of problems and only 28 were available at the show and handful more in distributor hands.

It is possible mint produces coins years after, the 1979 year of child silver matte was produced in 1988 with date on the coin 1979.  The 1982 1oz gold panda I believe was produced in 1982, 1983 and 1986, the 1986 one's grade MS69 most often.

I collect only a limited number of medals, because I don't see can barriers to someone making as many different ones as they want, the market is being dumped on with show medals.  The Honolulu show medals were issued at the show for $2500, dealers could buy more at $3000, today I have picked them up at $1600.  Some of the older in 1980s show medals can be had for $20-$50 over melt, there is almost no demand for them, except their bullion value.

Offline PandaCollector

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Re: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money
« Reply #48 on: July 12, 2017, 04:07:51 AM »

It is possible mint produces coins years after, the 1979 year of child silver matte was produced in 1988 with date on the coin 1979.  The 1982 1oz gold panda I believe was produced in 1982, 1983 and 1986, the 1986 one's grade MS69 most often. 

As I understand it, this practice was made illegal in China for coins and was stopped many years ago.

Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
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The Gold & Silver Panda Coin Buyer’s Guide 3
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Offline collectingcoins

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Re: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money
« Reply #49 on: July 12, 2017, 06:29:08 AM »
Thank you Arif for your appraisal of show medals. It is helpful.  I guess I'll keep one set.  It's not like $99.00 and $39.00 will break the bank. And as a collector, it's not about selling them right away, if ever.  It's to look at, marvel over, and appreciate the fine display of the minting details.  If I was buying 20 of them to flip (as you say) then I would be nervous. It doesn't seem like it would be fun to watch a these things bought at 99 to go down to $30. I'll stick with collecting. :-) Best.

Offline pandamonium

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Re: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money
« Reply #50 on: July 12, 2017, 08:33:39 AM »
At the 2016 ANA show the release 1oz gold, 1oz silver and 12oz silver to the public.  Then at private dinner they gave away a brass and copper.  Then a few weeks later Govmint got their production of 50g gold and 50g silver.  The trimetals I don't remember.  Sometimes the mint has production issues and medals can't be all ready for show distribution, the 12oz silver had a lot of problems and only 28 were available at the show and handful more in distributor hands.

It is possible mint produces coins years after, the 1979 year of child silver matte was produced in 1988 with date on the coin 1979.  The 1982 1oz gold panda I believe was produced in 1982, 1983 and 1986, the 1986 one's grade MS69 most often.

I collect only a limited number of medals, because I don't see can barriers to someone making as many different ones as they want, the market is being dumped on with show medals.  The Honolulu show medals were issued at the show for $2500, dealers could buy more at $3000, today I have picked them up at $1600.  Some of the older in 1980s show medals can be had for $20-$50 over melt, there is almost no demand for them, except their bullion value.




What other coins/medals besides the 79 Year of Child Matte and 82 1 oz gold pandas were restruck in later years?    Is there a list?........

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Re: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money
« Reply #51 on: July 12, 2017, 10:01:39 AM »
At the 2016 ANA show the release 1oz gold, 1oz silver and 12oz silver to the public.  Then at private dinner they gave away a brass and copper.  Then a few weeks later Govmint got their production of 50g gold and 50g silver.  The trimetals I don't remember.  Sometimes the mint has production issues and medals can't be all ready for show distribution, the 12oz silver had a lot of problems and only 28 were available at the show and handful more in distributor hands.

It is possible mint produces coins years after, the 1979 year of child silver matte was produced in 1988 with date on the coin 1979. The 1982 1oz gold panda I believe was produced in 1982, 1983 and 1986, the 1986 one's grade MS69 most often.

I collect only a limited number of medals, because I don't see can barriers to someone making as many different ones as they want, the market is being dumped on with show medals.  The Honolulu show medals were issued at the show for $2500, dealers could buy more at $3000, today I have picked them up at $1600.  Some of the older in 1980s show medals can be had for $20-$50 over melt, there is almost no demand for them, except their bullion value.

As I understand it, this practice was made illegal in China for coins and was stopped many years ago.

Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
China Pricepedia
The Gold & Silver Panda Coin Buyer’s Guide 3
www.pandacollector.com

Very interesting piece of information. I never knew this happened.
Thanks for the tidbits!
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Offline KeepOnTrying!

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Re: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money
« Reply #52 on: July 12, 2017, 10:15:56 AM »
I just did some research on the Anaheim medals, and I see that they had 4 different types.  Seems like a lot?  I really like that big panda on the Denver piece. I just noticed that only 2 are made available for purchase now, and then another one or two different styles are available at the show?  How many different versions will modern coin mart have?  Mark, I happen to agree with you, it seems like a lot of shows, and different types of medals being introduced in a short period of time. Makes my head dizzy with confusion.  I wonder if it is because more and more people are on a panda craze? Is there a point when there is market over saturation, and people lose interest?  Will, I like the look of the boxes. I'm assuming we will have to wait until the show to see what the real show medal looks like?  Thank you.

10?! No way. That's crazy.  When did all this change? It used to be where there were 2 or 3 pandas based on what I've gathered. 10 is a bit extreme? 6 is extreme enough! Perplexed. Looks like Denver will have a minimum of 6. As mentioned, at what point to people get exhausted trying to keep up? Some already have.  I think these show organizers have to a better job approving and limiting what is acceptable? But if people are buying them, it may be a little difficult to stop?

This is wanton commercialism that is only interested in short term monetary gains. Unfortunately it damages the hobby longterm. I haven't bought as many varieties as I used to do previously. I just pick up one or two particular designs I am interested in after the hype dies down and they are more reasonably priced. I walk away if they are untenable. The gold medal premiums have become ridiculous!

It is particularly difficult for those who participate in the coin registries as they have to buy all on offer to keep up with their scores and lead. Perhaps NGC and PCGS should start limiting the varieties they allow on their registries.
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Offline KeyDate1/2ozPandas

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Re: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money
« Reply #53 on: July 12, 2017, 11:00:12 AM »

What other coins/medals besides the 79 Year of Child Matte and 82 1 oz gold pandas were restruck in later years?    Is there a list?........

There are other coins, like historical figures and invention/discovery that were minted years after original year of issue, but all future minting was within the stated mintage on the COA, assuming COA was official.   If the COA was produced by distributor then it is anyone's guess how many were produced.  I don't have a list, just know about it from conversations with dealers over the years.   

I don't know the current rules for each of the mints on when is the latest a coin can be produced after the initial  run to full fill the COA limit.  For private mints I assume the rules are more relaxed.  This why medals have always been a collecting item for me and never an investment, I just don't like owning something that could have a hoard released into the market, because the original distributor needs to raise money fast or dies and bunch of coins hit the market.   I have seen many hoards get dumped at cheap prices over the years.   Even old medals from 1980s are locked up in hoards.  While gold pandas may still be locked up in hoards, the reality is the market demand is so high that moving 10-20 pieces of the same coin is easy, not so with medals, you may be able to sell on 1-4 quickly, but rest you are stuck with for years, even worse if they grade PF68 or lower, there is no liquidity for them unless price is close to melt.

Bottomline official medals should be collected for fun with little focus on making money.  The private mint medals collect them as souvenirs they will probably lose value as nicer ones will come out at lower mintage to trap unsuspecting investors of their potential value.   

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Re: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money
« Reply #54 on: July 12, 2017, 11:21:32 AM »
a clear trend down since release

Offline pandamonium

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Re: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money
« Reply #55 on: July 12, 2017, 07:44:51 PM »
There are other coins, like historical figures and invention/discovery that were minted years after original year of issue, but all future minting was within the stated mintage on the COA, assuming COA was official.   If the COA was produced by distributor then it is anyone's guess how many were produced.  I don't have a list, just know about it from conversations with dealers over the years.   

I don't know the current rules for each of the mints on when is the latest a coin can be produced after the initial  run to full fill the COA limit.  For private mints I assume the rules are more relaxed.  This why medals have always been a collecting item for me and never an investment, I just don't like owning something that could have a hoard released into the market, because the original distributor needs to raise money fast or dies and bunch of coins hit the market.   I have seen many hoards get dumped at cheap prices over the years.   Even old medals from 1980s are locked up in hoards.  While gold pandas may still be locked up in hoards, the reality is the market demand is so high that moving 10-20 pieces of the same coin is easy, not so with medals, you may be able to sell on 1-4 quickly, but rest you are stuck with for years, even worse if they grade PF68 or lower, there is no liquidity for them unless price is close to melt.

Bottomline official medals should be collected for fun with little focus on making money.  The private mint medals collect them as souvenirs they will probably lose value as nicer ones will come out at lower mintage to trap unsuspecting investors of their potential value.   




The 1986 PF 69 Hong Kong Expo 12 oz Silver Panda   $6,000 Clark Smith listed on his site, sold.      Which 1980's medals do you specify?   

Get my plug in ...King World News   "Dave Holter & Lynette Zang"    long interview but worth listening to.    They mention PCGS ultra rarity index, numismatic and collectible coins......

Offline 1003

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Re: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money
« Reply #56 on: July 12, 2017, 10:20:51 PM »
I guess he was talking about some gold 1 ouncers, like some 1987 gold 1 oz medals, not silver ones.

Offline KeyDate1/2ozPandas

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Re: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money
« Reply #57 on: July 13, 2017, 04:07:01 PM »
Both gold and silver from the 1980s are still in horads.  Silver hoards are bigger, I have seen 20+ 1984 1oz HK come out, 40+ of 1985-1987 5oz and 12oz silver HK, however, quality varies coins could be PF65-PF69, a getting PF69 quality large silver from the 1980s is hard and I can understand why a single coin could trade for a high price. 

Offline pandamonium

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Re: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money
« Reply #58 on: July 13, 2017, 07:14:56 PM »
The 1984 HK Expo silver panda 1 oz PF 70 is rare.   Maybe someone could post a photo!       I read a while back that the 1985 HK Expo 5 oz & 86 HK 12 oz silvers, both in highest grade PF 69 are going to be top pandas to collect.    85 is 1st yr of 5 oz and 86 is 1st yr of 12 oz.     Early years do not have many high grades as you stated.   ( Was once asked if the Mint would restrike these but i think that is impossible as the dies should be damaged and the graders could see the difference if new dies were made)......       A set of highest grade PF 70 or PF 69  1984 - 89 HK Expo silvers should be a top set to own when this market finally takes off.     I do not own a set......
For private mint early years i think Feng Yunming's semi official medals will rise to the top in time.     No publication on him yet but that is what his medals need.....
Fwang your translation blogs have been a big help.   Now get off your buns and start translating more.    That is very valuable information and i really want to read more!!.... :001_tt2:

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Re: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money
« Reply #59 on: July 13, 2017, 10:21:50 PM »
Thanks for sharing all the helpful insights.  So much to learn.  I was reading this piece from the MCM site where it says, 'To commemorate this highly-anticipated occasion, MCM will proudly be the sole distributor of 2017 Gold and Silver Denver ANA Show Pandas.'.

https://www.moderncoinmart.com/tags/2017-ana-world-s-fair-of-money-show-pandas/

If they are the Sole distributor, how is it possible that Panda America can be approved to provide these denver show medals? 

Offline PandaCollector

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Re: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money
« Reply #60 on: July 13, 2017, 11:29:20 PM »
Thanks for sharing all the helpful insights.  So much to learn.  I was reading this piece from the MCM site where it says, 'To commemorate this highly-anticipated occasion, MCM will proudly be the sole distributor of 2017 Gold and Silver Denver ANA Show Pandas.'.

https://www.moderncoinmart.com/tags/2017-ana-world-s-fair-of-money-show-pandas/

If they are the Sole distributor, how is it possible that Panda America can be approved to provide these denver show medals? 

Panda America will not have a gold 2017 ANA Show Panda, but they will have a silver one. Show Pandas from both companies were approved by the ANA (a first).

Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
China Pricepedia
The Gold & Silver Panda Coin Buyer’s Guide 3
www.pandacollector.com

Offline pandamonium

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Re: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money
« Reply #61 on: July 14, 2017, 02:56:30 PM »
Both gold and silver from the 1980s are still in horads.  Silver hoards are bigger, I have seen 20+ 1984 1oz HK come out, 40+ of 1985-1987 5oz and 12oz silver HK, however, quality varies coins could be PF65-PF69, a getting PF69 quality large silver from the 1980s is hard and I can understand why a single coin could trade for a high price. 





There could also be hoards of the 83, 84 & 85 1 oz silver pandas or the big 3 w/ planned mint of 10,000 each.      Last time i looked....
1st silver panda 1983 had about 650+ NGC pop.
1984 had about 850+ NGC pop
1985 had about 820+ NGC pop

The 1984 to 86 HK Expos had about 1,000 planned mint...
84 1 oz had about 140+ NGC pop
85 5 oz had about 130+ NGC pop
86 12 oz had about 120+ NGC pop

So i tell my collector friends that cannot afford the big 3 to take a second look at the first 3 HK Expos highest grades if possible......


Offline pandamonium

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Re: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money
« Reply #62 on: July 14, 2017, 04:40:38 PM »
Oops, forgot..
87 HK 1,000 planned mint, 88 2,000 planned mint & 89 1,500 planned mint...

1987 5 oz HK  had about 113+ total NGC pop...
1988 5 oz HK  had about 91+ total NGC pop...
1989 1 oz HK had about 141+ total NGC pop...

About 2 yrs ago i planned to post NGC pop of the big 3  VS  the HK Expos but the dealers/collectors i sent emails to said do not post so they can buy them up first.....

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Re: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money
« Reply #63 on: July 14, 2017, 05:43:08 PM »
Hello PandaCollector.  Do you know why they opted to go with two official mints for this show?  Is it because it is one of the better known shows (from what I've read) and they can support two types of medals?  It looks like MCM has the gold, but panda america has the tri-medal.  Is having two official sponsors cause for concern for future shows? 

Offline Mirkkanen

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Re: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money
« Reply #64 on: July 14, 2017, 07:36:10 PM »
If anyone here on CCF has a hoard of 1983 or 1985 silver PF pandas, please contact me via PM and I'd be happy to take them off your hands in exchange for some US currency  :)




There could also be hoards of the 83, 84 & 85 1 oz silver pandas or the big 3 w/ planned mint of 10,000 each.      Last time i looked....
1st silver panda 1983 had about 650+ NGC pop.
1984 had about 850+ NGC pop
1985 had about 820+ NGC pop

The 1984 to 86 HK Expos had about 1,000 planned mint...
84 1 oz had about 140+ NGC pop
85 5 oz had about 130+ NGC pop
86 12 oz had about 120+ NGC pop

So i tell my collector friends that cannot afford the big 3 to take a second look at the first 3 HK Expos highest grades if possible......



Offline KeyDate1/2ozPandas

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Re: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money
« Reply #65 on: July 15, 2017, 12:08:05 AM »
2016 ANA medal was sponsored by Mish International (1oz silver, 12oz silver, 1oz gold) and GovMint (50g silver, 50g gold).  The other ones I don't know if it was Mish or GovMint or ANA.  Having competition among the sponsors is good thing for product development but a bad thing for collectors on a budget, how many people can afford to buy multiple of a given medal.

Back in the 1980s I collected sports cards, prior to 1981 Topps was the only producer of cards, then in 1981 Donruss and Fleer started producing cards, then 1988 Score came out, then 1989 Upper Deck, then 1990s a bunch of new companies with several of them producing different series of varying quality.  I stopped in 1989 because once supply of new issue was so large it left the collector confused what to buy, because one can't buy it all.  I am glad I did because none of the issues after 1989 really paid off, even worse many left the hobby and even the 1980s cards suffered.  The stuff prior to 1980 has held up, but well below returns of other investments. 

I don't know if the market can support so many different issues, my concern is the limited collector base for medals will simply walk away, which may drastically impact new issues, even worse the older issues will end up with flat to down collector base.  Too much supply kills market, that is why I always recommend buying things that are hard to buy and are very liquid in multiple grades.

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Re: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money
« Reply #66 on: July 15, 2017, 03:55:13 AM »
Hello PandaCollector.  Do you know why they opted to go with two official mints for this show?  Is it because it is one of the better known shows (from what I've read) and they can support two types of medals?  It looks like MCM has the gold, but panda america has the tri-medal.  Is having two official sponsors cause for concern for future shows? 

These are good questions. I am also surprised that there are two sponsors, but do not have any insight (only speculation) into the ANA's thinking. We will just have to see how it works out in Denver.

I agree with Arif's concerns about oversupply. He is not the only one who has this on his mind. I am not worried about anyone walking away from collecting Chinese coins altogether, but they might decide to pass on some new issues. I do like the pricing of the Denver tri-metals at only $39. I think these will be popular souvenirs. The silvers are also, in my opinion, reasonable at $99 with a mintage below 1,000. Disclosure: I intend to buy two of each, at least.

Last year the GovMint 50 gram ANA Pandas were not available at the show. I hope the supply chain works more smoothly this time around. I look forward to seeing the 2017s.

Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
China Pricepedia
The Gold & Silver Panda Coin Buyer’s Guide 3
www.pandacollector.com

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Re: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money
« Reply #67 on: July 15, 2017, 03:59:47 AM »




There could also be hoards of the 83, 84 & 85 1 oz silver pandas or the big 3 w/ planned mint of 10,000 each.      Last time i looked....
1st silver panda 1983 had about 650+ NGC pop.
1984 had about 850+ NGC pop
1985 had about 820+ NGC pop

The 1984 to 86 HK Expos had about 1,000 planned mint...
84 1 oz had about 140+ NGC pop
85 5 oz had about 130+ NGC pop
86 12 oz had about 120+ NGC pop

So i tell my collector friends that cannot afford the big 3 to take a second look at the first 3 HK Expos highest grades if possible......



I am confident that none of the original distributors of the 1983-1985 27 gm silver coins hoarded them.

Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
China Pricepedia
The Gold & Silver Panda Coin Buyer’s Guide 3
www.pandacollector.com

Offline pandamonium

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Re: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money
« Reply #68 on: July 15, 2017, 07:56:54 AM »
I was not implying the original distributors have hoards of the big 3 silver pandas or even hoards of HK Expos.     Arif mentioned that and i assumed he meant it was a dealer/collector that may have had these hoards of HK Expos.     The point of posting is the low NGC pop numbers of the big 3  VS  HK Expos.     Both are top pandas to own......
Interesting comparison of the oversupply of baseball cards and how the market reacted.    Could all these new issue, low mint medals hurt early issue medals?       As gold/silver will soon take center stage and China/Russia owns the gold, i think it will not.    Early issue Chinese will always be collectible.    I agree the collectors will not walk away from collecting Chinese coins/medals no matter how many new issue, low mint medals the Mint pumps out and they will pump out a lot....
Denver tri metals are souvenirs?    "Souvenirs" is about right for several other new issue too.    Those new issue made of precious metals will always have bullion value at least.....

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Re: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money
« Reply #69 on: July 15, 2017, 01:53:57 PM »
2016 ANA medal was sponsored by Mish International (1oz silver, 12oz silver, 1oz gold) and GovMint (50g silver, 50g gold).  The other ones I don't know if it was Mish or GovMint or ANA.  Having competition among the sponsors is good thing for product development but a bad thing for collectors on a budget, how many people can afford to buy multiple of a given medal.

Back in the 1980s I collected sports cards, prior to 1981 Topps was the only producer of cards, then in 1981 Donruss and Fleer started producing cards, then 1988 Score came out, then 1989 Upper Deck, then 1990s a bunch of new companies with several of them producing different series of varying quality.  I stopped in 1989 because once supply of new issue was so large it left the collector confused what to buy, because one can't buy it all.  I am glad I did because none of the issues after 1989 really paid off, even worse many left the hobby and even the 1980s cards suffered.  The stuff prior to 1980 has held up, but well below returns of other investments. 

I don't know if the market can support so many different issues, my concern is the limited collector base for medals will simply walk away, which may drastically impact new issues, even worse the older issues will end up with flat to down collector base.  Too much supply kills market, that is why I always recommend buying things that are hard to buy and are very liquid in multiple grades.


History tends to repeat itself as sure as the sun rises and sets. The question is if someone can reign in the current runaway situation we are facing. It is to the interest of the Chinese Mint governing board and their responsibility to remedy the current situation. Failure of which a similar situation to the base ball example may not be too far fetched. This may not be a popular sentiment in some quarters but it is reality and for love of the hobby.

The reality is that people move on when the pond gets muddied. We may not be there yet and I hope we never get there
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Offline Mirkkanen

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Re: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money
« Reply #70 on: July 15, 2017, 03:06:46 PM »
IMO, there is no "situation" needing to be remedied. Intelligent collectors don't need to read a 6 page thread to discover that these types of medals are not maintaining value over several months/years. A bit of basic research and one or two buys that lose value will accomplish that.

It is not an issue that we as collectors/investors can manage anyway.


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Re: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money
« Reply #71 on: July 15, 2017, 03:47:41 PM »
Since I'm collecting a couple of the Denver Pandas, I did some research on show medals.  It appears that some of these are selling at a good price many years after the show.  I was looking at the Hong Kong medals that was highlighted by someone, and those seem to be fetching a good price.  I looked at the Cincinnati 1 oz silver, and those are going for a good price too.  I'm not looking to flip, but to keep for a long time.  It appears at $99.00 and $39.00 and a mintage of only 888, there should be a floor-not that I'm worried-I'm keeping these.  I am worried about the many different variations of the new show medals.  I think that is stretching it a tad.  I'm also happy to find deals on older panda bullion coins too - both silver and gold.  These Denver issues are the only medals I will be purchasing. The other medals found on the internet seem too risky.

Offline KeepOnTrying!

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Re: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money
« Reply #72 on: July 15, 2017, 08:09:51 PM »
IMO, there is no "situation" needing to be remedied. Intelligent collectors don't need to read a 6 page thread to discover that these types of medals are not maintaining value over several months/years. A bit of basic research and one or two buys that lose value will accomplish that.

It is not an issue that we as collectors/investors can manage anyway.



New collectors don't buy one or two items or whatever before they learn their lessons. They may buy quite a lot if their source of information is flawed or has conflicts of interest, as we have seen in this hobby. Massive loss of value may turn a neophyte off collecting. Yes we are not necessarily here to tell the newbie what to buy and what not to but the viability of MMC collection in the long term is based on the viability of the newly produced coins and medals and not necessarily on what people already have in their collection. It also depends on new collectors joining our ranks. Complex topic with nuances but the current mintage pattern does not bode well for the future IMO.
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Offline numistacker

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Re: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money
« Reply #73 on: July 18, 2017, 09:46:07 AM »
I guess in many ways I am a new collector but I am also in my tiny way an influencer in that I participate online and have almost 5k subs on my you tube channel where I show many low mintage medals. I also collect USA and UK gold coinage, and Mexican Libertads. I have learned a lot in the last few years and I am always learning more.

You know something - I like low mintage quality Chinese Medals - there I said it. I buy lots of things that are more expensive than them but I enjoy them. I enjoy the artistry, I like owning things that may have between 30 and 200 pieces. I never collected older or even modern fiat Chinese and to be honest it doesnt interest me that much though I do like the 35th Anniversary bimetallic Panda which I showed on my youtube channel today.

I have ordered the Denver show panda pair from PandaAmerica and i have the ANA panda and the moon panda and Expo Pandas too. I dont go overboard with it really but in a world where 10m regular pandas are made I really dont want something there are 10m of.

I dont care if I make money from low mintage medals. The investment in the scheme of things is small but where I have sold the things that I have liked enough to buy I have always made money so far except for two medals the Lohan and one other.

I dont mind buying Brass and I dont mind buying copper and I dont mind that anyone can setup and make one of these lovely medals via the China mints, in fact maybe I will become a sponsor and feature the whole process from start to finish on my Youtube channel, I am sure that would be of huge interest. 

I do worry like most of you that the market could be swamped by cheap nasty badly produced items and while the do occur and some are better than others generally that does not happen and everyone who is passionate enough to do this (as there are far better ways to earn money) also wants to do the best and create the best. My experience is that many collectors enjoy the fun of the chase and the community aspects of collecting, I know I do. Once I have something I put it away and maybe look at it a few times or send it to NGC for grading but the experience is in the chase - was it tough to find? was there lots of competition? did I get a good price?

I am not a purist - there are things that I love and hunt for. I would like a £5 1937 Proof Sovereign and a 1911 set as well and maybe over time I will get these things and they give me a thrill that perhaps I will manage to be careful enough with money to achieve these tings. Low Mintage medals are more fun than serious. Dealers like Lucky want to get new medals out to a wide public so they are not particularly expensive. Other dealers charge a little more and need to earn a living which does not worry me at all.  What I want to do is get more people particularly in the USA to take an interest in interesting things they may not have come across and so I make video's and try to explain to the best of my ability what I like, what I buy and why I buy it. I "promote" in a way but things I like because I feel if I like things then others will like them too and the more buyers in the market the greater the liquidity and the happier that market is.

I started a Facebook group for Chinese coins and trading a couple of months ago and we now have 110 members with more joining each day and I did this because its the same old faces on the forums and I feel that nobody complains about saturation in a growning market. I want to see 10x more people understand and embrace this market. Lets all find ways to make our optimism and enthusiasm for MCC contagious.



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Re: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money
« Reply #74 on: July 18, 2017, 11:56:38 AM »


I started a Facebook group for Chinese coins and trading a couple of months ago and we now have 110 members with more joining each day... I want to see 10x more people understand and embrace this market. Lets all find ways to make our optimism and enthusiasm for MCC contagious.




Outstanding!

Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
China Pricepedia
The Gold & Silver Panda Coin Buyer’s Guide 3
www.pandacollector.com

Offline pandamonium

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Re: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money
« Reply #75 on: July 18, 2017, 01:21:44 PM »
I agree numistacker that we all have the right to collect what we are addicted to.        It is good you are not concerned w/ making money w/ new issue, low mint medals because some are considered Souvenirs.       I really like all the new designs.     When i started collecting i chose new issue due to superior designs....
Since then i have chatted w/ many experts/dealers and have studied the early issues as you know.     Now i am a addict of early issue even the crude, low quality Feng medals.     Some characters on early issue have great importance in Chinese society so the history is very interesting.    The early issue will have a big move up in price that got my attention.   Also love to study the market and watch where prices/demand is going and post that on badon's site.      This collection market has something for everyone..... 
Do not have U tube and not on Facebook or social media.    (I refuse to even own a smart phone but have a landlocked one.)   Have contacted many authors of online articles concerning bullion/coins and asked them to study Chinese and possibly write a article.      We have 2 different angles of Chinese collecting exposure. 
To each their own but everyone must be warned that whatever Chinese you collect there is the strong possibility of addiction with out intervention.... 

Offline Mirkkanen

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Re: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money
« Reply #76 on: July 18, 2017, 03:26:27 PM »
I have always made money so far except for two medals the Lohan and one other.

When you buy a medal of Lindsey Lohan's likeness, the expectation must be that it will lose money. I cannot believe the Chinese mints would allow something like that to be made. What does she have to do with pandas anyway?

Regarding your other points, of which there are many, I agree with them all. The goal of hobby or niche popularization is noble and it seems you're doing more than most of us here, who try to keep our collecting under the radar.

You know the warning and collect what you like. That is fine. We do worry about others who collect what they think will be stars but which, in reality may turn out to be crap (from a profit perspective).

Offline KeepOnTrying!

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Re: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money
« Reply #77 on: July 18, 2017, 06:58:29 PM »
When you buy a medal of Lindsey Lohan's likeness, the expectation must be that it will lose money. I cannot believe the Chinese mints would allow something like that to be made. What does she have to do with pandas anyway?

Regarding your other points, of which there are many, I agree with them all. The goal of hobby or niche popularization is noble and it seems you're doing more than most of us here, who try to keep our collecting under the radar.

You know the warning and collect what you like. That is fine. We do worry about others who collect what they think will be stars but which, in reality may turn out to be crap (from a profit perspective).

Lol Mirkkanen!  N17

This is proof indeed that you don't collect medals. Lohan here refers not to the superstar but to the medal set with specs below:

Shanghai Mint 2014 Arhat Riding a Deer silver and brass medals. (18 Buddist Arhats/Lohans Series - Deer Rider Arhat)

You can see an image of this at thincat00's eBay sale page with the eBay ID: 181817173921

URL is:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/China-45mm-Medals-Set-18-Buddist-Arhats-Lohans-Series-Deer-Rider-Arhat-/181817173921?hash=item2a5525e7a1

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Offline pandamonium

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Re: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money
« Reply #78 on: July 18, 2017, 09:07:28 PM »
Anyway we look at it, China owns the wealth and the gold.     Any coin/medal minted in China will rise in price, some more than others.     I am no purists but really like the early year medals/coins as most have a connection to China's fascinating history be it a famous person, art, revolution, etc......   

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Re: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money
« Reply #79 on: July 19, 2017, 09:30:22 AM »
When you buy a medal of Lindsey Lohan's likeness, the expectation must be that it will lose money. I cannot believe the Chinese mints would allow something like that to be made. What does she have to do with pandas anyway?

Regarding your other points, of which there are many, I agree with them all. The goal of hobby or niche popularization is noble and it seems you're doing more than most of us here, who try to keep our collecting under the radar.

You know the warning and collect what you like. That is fine. We do worry about others who collect what they think will be stars but which, in reality may turn out to be crap (from a profit perspective).

The Lindsey Lohan Panda - now that's a souvenir too far ))

I am very aware that lots happens under the radar but from what i can see this is a fragile market where sentiment can make or break perhaps more so than some other more mature areas. It needs and I think deserves more people and would make a rewarding field of collecting for more people.

Offline numistacker

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Re: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money
« Reply #80 on: July 19, 2017, 09:37:50 AM »
I was listening to the Coin Week Podcast on my way to the office today. It made the point that there are two groups of Chinese Collectors - modern money and history buffs. The modern money is almost exclusively into large chunks of bullion and pandas sold by banks. The history buffs are into the old. My interest is the gray area where coins meet art. I have a nice collection of pandas and a fair few California Fractionals and Pre-33 gold. Both are expensive to accumulate. I like the modern china medal market because we are at the start of something new, its evolving, its playful, it has variety and it is finding its place. New mint techniques are being perfected and it reminds me of something close to my own hear the English Arts and Crafts Movement, Archibald Knox, CR Ashbee etc its a good thing that is happening and the best of what this era produces will be valued and the worst of it binned.

I am waiting for Modern Coin Mart to pay attention to this area and use professional marketing to expand the collector base from a few hundred (if that) to 10,000 or more.



Offline PandaWill

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Re: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money
« Reply #81 on: July 19, 2017, 12:53:30 PM »
hey guys,

here are the 1st images from the Shanghai Mint of the silver Denver Panda commemoratives:


Offline numistacker

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Re: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money
« Reply #82 on: July 20, 2017, 06:43:42 AM »
hey guys,

here are the 1st images from the Shanghai Mint of the silver Denver Panda commemoratives:



Is it me or does it look to you guys like a rush job.
It does not look to me like a thing of beauty like the ANA Anaheim Panda.

Does anyone know what ANA medal is actually issued by ANA when one opts for the medal as part of ANA Denver Registration?

Is this one or the other of these Panda medals or is there a separate ANA Denver medal that is not Panda related?


Offline 1003

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Re: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money
« Reply #83 on: July 20, 2017, 11:16:57 AM »
I am not a fan of the panda side design. Similar to 2001/02, but even worse.

Offline Mirkkanen

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Re: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money
« Reply #84 on: July 20, 2017, 02:01:11 PM »
Didn't your moms teach you that if you don't have anything nice to say  . . . ?

Offline collectingcoins

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Re: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money
« Reply #85 on: July 20, 2017, 02:04:22 PM »
Oh no!  I don't like the look of those at all.  I think I'll be cancelling my order. I'm sad. I was looking forward to holding this in my hand.  I may cancel and wait for the finished product to determine if I want it.  I'm debating it.  I will not be buying the one from modern coin mart due to the higher mintage amount.  I've been learning a lot about the panda coins here and picked up a book too.  So, maybe I should stick with those.  Thanks for posting the pictures.  I wonder why the Panda America version doesn't have the lamp?  Anyone know?

I just saw Mirkkanen's post.  I didn't mean to come across as not nice.  I don't think the other folks did either.  I think we are being honest?  Maybe they will look better when we can see the actual medal?  And we can share accordingly.  The pictures are not flattering, but maybe the real thing will be.

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Re: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money
« Reply #86 on: July 20, 2017, 05:02:56 PM »
I am not a fan of the panda side design. Similar to 2001/02, but even worse.

FWIW, the 2001/2002 Panda design won the Coin of the Year award as the world's best gold coin design.

I think it's worth pointing out that Chinese coins and medals are designed by individual artists, although sometimes two, or even three, artists can have a hand in a single issue. I'm pretty sure the 2017 ANA medals are by a different artist than the 2016 ones by Yu Min. The different styles reflect that.

Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
China Pricepedia
The Gold & Silver Panda Coin Buyer’s Guide 3
www.pandacollector.com




Offline KeepOnTrying!

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Re: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money
« Reply #87 on: July 20, 2017, 07:06:17 PM »
I don't usually criticize coins and medals since taste and styles vary and it may not be well received by some as an objective statement.

It is also a slippery slope as already demonstrated elsewhere where competitors put down other's wares. I must immediately say that I am not impugning the motives of critics here. Absolutely not!

Maybe this is a coin whose features can only be discerned with accuracy either with better photography or in real life.

My interest is if the design similarities with a prior Panda coin means the same artist(s) did both of them. The bamboo design certainly looks close to the current design of the bullion Panda coins although that is not a bad thing in itself. Interestingly I can see the "Ge" Chinese character in the bamboo leaves!
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Offline numistacker

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Re: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money
« Reply #88 on: July 21, 2017, 06:54:46 AM »
Just wanted to say that I had pre-ordered one set of these medals from PandaAmerica and I wont be cancelling my order. Perhaps the medals in hand will be better than the initial impression. How the Panda looks and the quality of the design often is disconnected with the success of the edition. With only 888 medals of each type i am sure that this one will sell out and there were those who thought that the Nanjing Panda 2015 with more than a passing resemblance to a Racoon might not succeed but it still sold out.

AS I have said previously and so have others - the sponsors of private edition medals (Show Pandas and other editions) need to show an element of restraint and focus on quality not quantity in order to grow the market. I certainly appreciate the comments made by Peter Anthony that each artist has a distinctive style and I am looking forward to getting my medals and seeing the quality for myself.
 

Offline collectingcoins

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Re: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money
« Reply #89 on: July 21, 2017, 01:08:27 PM »
Thanks for all the input on this thread.  I'm sure these show pandas will look fine, but I decided against them. Instead I bought myself a 1 oz gold panda surprise from APMEX, and scored a 2008 panda.  Pictures to follow, probably after I grade.  Thanks again everyone.  Best of success to Panda America and Modern Coin Mart at the Denver show. 

Offline PandaCollector

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Re: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money
« Reply #90 on: July 21, 2017, 01:41:10 PM »
Thanks for all the input on this thread.  I'm sure these show pandas will look fine, but I decided against them. Instead I bought myself a 1 oz gold panda surprise from APMEX, and scored a 2008 panda.  Pictures to follow, probably after I grade.  Thanks again everyone.  Best of success to Panda America and Modern Coin Mart at the Denver show. 

If you get a 69, or better, on the 2008 you will have scored a numismatic Daily Double. Good luck.

Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
China Pricepedia
The Gold & Silver Panda Coin Buyer’s Guide 3
www.pandacollector.com

Offline sdd1jmc

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Re: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money
« Reply #91 on: August 05, 2017, 09:13:29 AM »
MCM only had 300 ANA panda coins available at the show, will this be the coin to get?

Offline 1003

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Re: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money
« Reply #92 on: August 05, 2017, 10:41:47 AM »
All 300 silver's? Any golds?

Offline sdd1jmc

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Re: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money
« Reply #93 on: August 05, 2017, 11:00:35 AM »
All 300 are silver no gold will be available till after the show. Other 4700 silver not available till after the show.

Offline 1003

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Re: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money
« Reply #94 on: August 05, 2017, 11:07:14 AM »
Maybe it's good value if there is an NGC show release label?

Offline collectingcoins

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Re: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money
« Reply #95 on: August 05, 2017, 03:17:43 PM »
Pictures of Modern Coin Mart ANA Denver. Have a wonderful weekend.

Offline panda

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Re: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money
« Reply #96 on: August 05, 2017, 06:48:39 PM »
Pictures of Modern Coin Mart ANA Denver. Have a wonderful weekend.

Most beautiful Panda medal!

Offline KeepOnTrying!

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Re: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money
« Reply #97 on: August 05, 2017, 11:56:11 PM »
If MCM can sell all 5000 medals and fast enough then there will be a wider base of collectors than is usually the case with the smaller mintage medals, hopefully continuing to fuel demand for same medals in years to come. This is all conjecture on my part.

Can't see anything off putting in the design based on my limited experience but large silver proof fields like this always seem to beckon spotting to take a swipe!
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Offline KeyDate1/2ozPandas

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Re: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money
« Reply #98 on: August 06, 2017, 05:25:14 PM »
Asset Marketing (govmint and MCM) has a large customer base, majority of which buy coins as gifts for grandkids with the hope someday it will be worth a fortune.  Majority of the coins will disappear from the market for many years to come.  Whether it brings new collectors to the market, for sure, how many it is hard to say as most of these buyers buy whatever is marketed at them and don't have a connection with a given country, next week they will buy super heros or frosted maple leaf.

The PA medal went into collectors hands, they were selling one off to those that wanted a China coin.

Offline pandaberlin

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Re: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money
« Reply #99 on: August 12, 2017, 08:45:16 AM »
I also said it on another forum and i'll repeat it here, i don't think it is a good idea to mint ultra low mintage varieties in different metals and give them to vips, members, dealers or best buddies so that they can make a guaranteed profit. I think collectors like to have complete sets and taking away the hope of ever owning a complete set for reasonable prices right from the start is counter-productive (just my humble opinion, though, others might find these rarities exciting)

I totally agree with this opinion and this is also what you saw back in Germany during the World Money Fair. All off a sudden, five different versions of a medal pop up. And the regular collector will never get to see them.

Offline PandaCollector

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Re: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money
« Reply #100 on: August 12, 2017, 12:33:12 PM »
In Denver, there was an active discussion between a handful of important China coin dealers about narrowing the definition of a Show Panda. Sentiment is strong to reign in the trend of issuing multiple versions of an issue, especially if these are not released to the public. All dealers I spoke to say this practice discourages collectors.

The general outline for a solution would require that a Show Panda be available, or at least be available for pre-orders, on the floor of the relevant coin show. If not, then the products would be called something else, perhaps, "Coin Show design medals"?

For my own part, as in the current "Gold & Silver Panda Coin Buyer's Guide 3" book, private issues will continue to be found in the "World of Pandas" section, not in the main dates section. There they are prominently noted as private issues, not from official government mints. The significance of being struck by a government mint is that the government issue must go through an approval process and follow all government regulations and requirements. They carry the approval and reputation of a monetary authority.

Anyone who wishes to comment on this is very welcome to as talks are ongoing.

Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
China Pricepedia
The Gold & Silver Panda Coin Buyer’s Guide 3
www.pandacollector.com

Offline Bearcat

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Re: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money
« Reply #101 on: August 12, 2017, 03:02:29 PM »
Thanks Peter, I concur with this approach.

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Re: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money
« Reply #102 on: August 12, 2017, 05:27:18 PM »
Pardon the misspelling: the word in the second sentence of my last post should be rein, not reign.  :scared:

Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
China Pricepedia
The Gold & Silver Panda Coin Buyer’s Guide 3
www.pandacollector.com

Offline Clark Smith

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Re: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money
« Reply #103 on: August 12, 2017, 07:19:39 PM »
I believe that to be a "Show Panda" the medals should be sold at the show.    If you lined up, you should have been able to buy one until they are sold out.     

Obviously some medals might be saved by the distributor for some other purposes, but certainly not the entire mintage of a medal (as was the case with the 1oz gold medal at the 2017 ANA).   None of the gold medals were sold at the show!



Offline KeepOnTrying!

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Re: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money
« Reply #104 on: August 13, 2017, 01:24:11 AM »
In Denver, there was an active discussion between a handful of important China coin dealers about narrowing the definition of a Show Panda. Sentiment is strong to reign in the trend of issuing multiple versions of an issue, especially if these are not released to the public. All dealers I spoke to say this practice discourages collectors.

The general outline for a solution would require that a Show Panda be available, or at least be available for pre-orders, on the floor of the relevant coin show. If not, then the products would be called something else, perhaps, "Coin Show design medals"?

For my own part, as in the current "Gold & Silver Panda Coin Buyer's Guide 3" book, private issues will continue to be found in the "World of Pandas" section, not in the main dates section. There they are prominently noted as private issues, not from official government mints. The significance of being struck by a government mint is that the government issue must go through an approval process and follow all government regulations and requirements. They carry the approval and reputation of a monetary authority.

Anyone who wishes to comment on this is very welcome to as talks are ongoing.

Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
China Pricepedia
The Gold & Silver Panda Coin Buyer’s Guide 3
www.pandacollector.com

A Show Panda by implication is a medal designed specially to commemorate a Numismatic convention. Every other consideration is semantics but still important if limits have to be set in place. The reason why these limits have to be defined is to protect this class of medals from the machinations of commercial entities that have aggressively invaded the commemorative medals' arena with potentially harmful effects on the continued success of Modern Chinese Coin collection.

1: A Show Panda has to be permitted/licensed by the organization that is hosting the Numismatic convention e.g. ANA.

2: A Show Panda can be produced on time and sold ahead of the convention to ALL interested parties through the common well known channels including Ebay. But it must be sold at the CONVENTION in enough numbers to satisfy all customers presenting to the booth to buy the medal.

3: Panda medals that are presented EXCLUSIVELY to interest groups including dealers, sponsors, friends, family, politicians, employees etc with regular collectors not having a REASONABLE chance of obtaining these medals at REASONABLE prices are NOT Show Pandas. Furthermore, they shouldn't be medals recognized by TPGs such as NGC and PCGS for inclusion in official collector recognition programs such as the Coin Registry and other programs. These are not medals that are available to the collecting public.

4: A medal that is not available before and during the convention is not a Show medal.

5: A Panda medal that is not available at the Convention in a manner that all participants have a reasonable chance of buying the medal either as in a one-to-one basis or in the form of a lottery at the convention should not be a Show Panda.

Finally, the 800Ib gorilla is the reality that commercial concerns manipulate the market in a blatant fashion and skew the valuation of these medals in such a way that there is a ZERO chance that the said items will gain in value after having made the sponsor and inner circle the initial profit they seek. People eventually figure out these these things and move on elsewhere and are lost to the MCC collector field.

No one is going to chase a medal down the rabbit hole anymore (except 2-3 US based inveterate enthusiasts) because there are better medals down the production pipeline and there are better deals in other country mint products.

We don’t need a multiplicity of terminology because that will lead nowhere (e.g. Coin Show Design Medals etc). I believe all should be called Coins failing which they should all be called Medals. Since Show Panda has already been introduced they may retain that title for those that fulfill the STRICT criteria.

This might be a repetition of some of your points but they need amplification.

With best wishes.
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Offline pandaberlin

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Re: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money
« Reply #105 on: August 14, 2017, 09:28:09 AM »

3: Panda medals that are presented EXCLUSIVELY to interest groups including dealers, sponsors, friends, family, politicians, employees etc with regular collectors not having a REASONABLE chance of obtaining these medals at REASONABLE prices are NOT Show Pandas. Furthermore, they shouldn't be medals recognized by TPGs such as NGC and PCGS for inclusion in official collector recognition programs such as the Coin Registry and other programs. These are not medals that are available to the collecting public.


Without being rude, but this would take away the Show Panda status of most of the Panda medals, including the different varieties of the Berlin World Money Fair Show Panda - from my point of view, the Copper and Brass and Tri-Metal varieties were just a way to please friends and family of certain dealers, but no ordinary collectors items. As a regular collector, you would have to pay hundreds of Euros for that and most collectors don't afford 1000 euros to buy a brass Panda...is this how it's supposed to be?

Offline KeyDate1/2ozPandas

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Re: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money
« Reply #106 on: August 14, 2017, 01:05:45 PM »
The "show panda" designation is something NGC puts on a label, nothing more or less.  All we are saying is NGC should limit the term "show panda" for only those coins that attendees at the show can buy, while all others are just show medals or show tokens on NGC labels.  Of course 10-20 years from now new collectors will not aware of these discussion and they will probably seek the lowest mintage coins and buy all the promo pieces, similar to 1988 brass HK show dragon coin, those were freebies and now people promote them as valuable show pandas.

Regardless of what NGC, dealers, distributors, promoters, sponsors or authors call them, retail public has the right to vote with their dollars, if you buy something at a large spread more of the same type of medals will be produced to enrich the sponsor, if you don't buy sponsors will move on to something else, it all comes down to supply and demand. 

Same goes for private mint issues, if enough people buy to make it profitable for sponsors they will make more of them, if no one buys they will stop using those private mints or create mintage traps to lure newbie buyers.  For example, rather than create a medal with 5000 mintage you create 50 different medals with 100 mintage each, the extra die cost is easily paid up by the those unsuspecting buyers.

Offline Jens

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Re: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money
« Reply #107 on: August 14, 2017, 02:11:55 PM »
Without being rude, but this would take away the Show Panda status of most of the Panda medals, including the different varieties of the Berlin World Money Fair Show Panda - from my point of view, the Copper and Brass and Tri-Metal varieties were just a way to please friends and family of certain dealers, but no ordinary collectors items. As a regular collector, you would have to pay hundreds of Euros for that and most collectors don't afford 1000 euros to buy a brass Panda...is this how it's supposed to be?

Let me tell you a little story.
Once upon a time in germany, people started to collect phone cards when they were introduced back in the days.
At first everybody was happy because there were only a few official issues that everyone could collect.
After a while private firms were offered the chance to pay for their own design phonecards.
At first this was seen as a nice new addition and people started also collecting those, even if it meant that they had to spent more money for a complete collection.
A few years later unscrupulous firms started to sell these phone cards at ridiculous prices so nobody could ever hope to achieve a collection that was even remotely complete.
Today you can buy these cards for 1-2 euros, but nobody really wants to, the market is dead.

If you try to milk collectors dry by forcing them to buy super rare super expensive items if they want to be complete the market will sooner or later collapse and the official mints should be smarter than that.
The above example isn't the only one (Complete collection of french euro coins, anyone?)

 

Offline PandaCollector

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Re: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money
« Reply #108 on: August 14, 2017, 04:01:10 PM »
Without being rude, but this would take away the Show Panda status of most of the Panda medals, including the different varieties of the Berlin World Money Fair Show Panda -

Yes, it would. That is what everyone I've asked about this, like Clark, Arif and others, think is necessary. Souvenirs that are struck solely for friends and business colleagues that are never sold at a coin show shouldn't be called Show Pandas. They are something else.

Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
China Pricepedia
The Gold & Silver Panda Coin Buyer’s Guide 3
www.pandacollector.com

Offline KeepOnTrying!

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Re: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money
« Reply #109 on: August 14, 2017, 05:00:26 PM »
Let me tell you a little story.
Once upon a time in germany, people started to collect phone cards when they were introduced back in the days.
At first everybody was happy because there were only a few official issues that everyone could collect.
After a while private firms were offered the chance to pay for their own design phonecards.
At first this was seen as a nice new addition and people started also collecting those, even if it meant that they had to spent more money for a complete collection.
A few years later unscrupulous firms started to sell these phone cards at ridiculous prices so nobody could ever hope to achieve a collection that was even remotely complete.
Today you can buy these cards for 1-2 euros, but nobody really wants to, the market is dead.

If you try to milk collectors dry by forcing them to buy super rare super expensive items if they want to be complete the market will sooner or later collapse and the official mints should be smarter than that.
The above example isn't the only one (Complete collection of french euro coins, anyone?)

 

+1 for points made  N31
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Offline KeyDate1/2ozPandas

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Re: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money
« Reply #110 on: August 14, 2017, 05:12:24 PM »
Thanks for the phone card story, I will add that to my list of markets ruined by sponsors looking to make a quick buck of inexperienced buyers.  My favorites are sports cards during 89-92, the number of issues went up almost 10 fold and following years market tanked 70-90%.  Beanie Babies craze in 96-99, too many varieties started coming out and issue prices by distributors killed the market.  Internet IPOs in late 99 to early 00, initial pop on stocks was 100%-300%, then a year later stocks tanked 70%-100%.  Currently, ICO are the latest craze, supply is coming in so fast that in months or year it will crash. 

Will see in the coming year the true colors of sponsors, will they continue to dump many issues laced with mintage traps or will they go back to a single distributor model with 1-2 issues per show that are available to everyone.   I think a lot of damage has already been done in the last two years, I don't know if it is reversible. 

Offline Championhk

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Re: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money
« Reply #111 on: August 14, 2017, 09:08:52 PM »
There seems to be quite a bit of discussions after the Ana about show pandas which I think is extremely good about this topic.

Perhaps I can give some input on this subject not only from looking from the outside but also include insign from the inside. As I recall I had predict some issues for the Ana pandas as I was at the Shanghai mint last week to meet with the designer yu min and later with officials for lunch , this topic came up.

Due to the approval process there were many issues for the Ana panda so only a small number was delivered to the show. MCM actually had their shanghai staff hand carry the pandas to make sure they  will arrive in Denver. I went to the baseball game with the staff member in Denver and saw him and the head of company with ngc chairman mark at the Smithsonian national numismatic collection event in Denver .

Again the trimetal issue cause many die problems  breaking both pairs of dies after only 200. This is main reason we do NOT sale the trimetal product giving away 200 at the 2016 ana and 500 at the world money fair Berlin this year. At the world money fair the trimetal were given away to many visitors including kids who visited our booth and at the coin of the year event award ceremony to attendees as a gift from designer yu min as he could not atttend the ceremony so the Chinese embassy received the award for him. This is the only time a gift from a designer was distributed at a coty award ceremony , but since he is only one of four lifetime award winners , it is a special situation.

Previously 2016 Berlin copper pandas were distributed to attendees of the Otto beh Chinese dies ceremony at world money fair which I purchased from the otto beh family thru kunker auctions and donated to the mortizberg museum in Halle.

I feel strongly that market for show pandas and any numismatic product is determined by design ,  production quality and supply. With every show panda product we spent many months with the designer and the mint to produce the best product we can. Often using the latest minting technology and working with leading numismatic experts to review the design. We also support the the release of the panda with special exhibits and events like the Otto beh Macau special exhibit and Howard Bowker special exhibit in Macau were the plasters are loaned by the Shanghai and Shenyang mint to put on display and also attendance in Macau of Shenyang mint designer at the opening event of the special release of the medal.  All this add much higher cost of releasing a show panda , but bring much more interest to the issue locally.

We do NOT release show pandas for small shows with small public attendance and limited influence purely to jump on the show panda wagon .

We spent much effort to rebuild interest in show pandas after the recent market difficulties of other marketers of show panda programs. I had a discussion with my German partner kunker with the head of mdm the largest numismatic company in Europe about the 2016 world money fair panda , he told us the last one was so poorly promoted only a few sold at the show and he was not interested and discouraged us from moving ahead. We went ahead and it has been much better than we had expected with show distribution and sale at 50 percent of the mintage after only two years.

Also with the issues of the private mint , certain private mints makes many products for government mints and china gold with the names of the mint and china gold on the product as their production quality is up to or beyond the mint's standards. Certain Chinese mints outsource their production almost entirely to private mints , so how do someone judge which one's are actually produced at the mint facility, perhaps the only way to tell is to have an actual first strike on site of the mint? With the recent change in policies where the mint do not put their name on the product now this makes it even harder to know?

Does the experts producing information have information and reporting directly from the mint before they put this information to the public? When information are just speculations from the outside it makes it more difficult for the collector to know the actual information provided is useful. Perhaps ngc can help us in determining this issue, I had a visit with ngc and ncs president david camire to a private mint recently in Shanghai , he was also surprise of all the mint products being produced there and they had newer equipment than even the government mints! Perhaps just a certificate with a mint name is not enough to really know where is was produced?

With the current polices of the government mints , it makes it much more difficult to prodcue an interesting show panda due to the restrictions of design , the designer now has also to sign off personally on copyright on his designs and also can not use certain terms friendship without ministry's approval and past panda designs. We used the 1983 and 1998 panda designs as basis of Macau and Berlin panda that is probably no longer possible.

I think the best period for the show pandas may be behind us so perhaps best for collectors now  to focus on these issues while they are available such as yu min's macau, Ana, and world money fair pandas. It will be much harder to live up to these standards with the current situation which we hope will change in the future. Regards, michael


Offline PandaCollector

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Re: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money
« Reply #112 on: August 14, 2017, 09:23:54 PM »

Will see in the coming year the true colors of sponsors, will they continue to dump many issues laced with mintage traps or will they go back to a single distributor model with 1-2 issues per show that are available to everyone.   I think a lot of damage has already been done in the last two years, I don't know if it is reversible. 

I am optimistic that we will see fewer off-metal Show Pandas or variants from official Chinese mints in the foreseeable future. I cannot offer any insight into private mints. I hope that distinguishing between Show issues and medals with show designs will help collectors and support demand and interest in true Show Pandas.

Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
China Pricepedia
The Gold & Silver Panda Coin Buyer’s Guide 3
www.pandacollector.com

Offline Championhk

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Re: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money
« Reply #113 on: August 14, 2017, 09:47:42 PM »
Another thought for show pandas designation perhaps that significant percentage of the show pandas ( 33 1/3 percent to 50 percent ) offered are released locally or sold at the show , some issues are purely just for marketing companies like the smaller show panda issues like last year's small regional state show where very limited sales were at the show and most pre-sold to marketing companies? I think the person arranging this project did a special version and did quite well selling these " show panda " product to collectors but aftermarket prices for these pandas show are much lower than release price , they were not up to the standards of the show pandas like Ana Anaheim panda where the gold one ounce still trades at over usd 5,000 on ebay which is way above the usd 1891 show release price. These issues should not be designated at show pandas as most were sold elsewhere and only the distributors profited from a product with limited interest? Show they be label as special pandas.

It is just a little concerning that people who are bring up issues should also let collectors know they are active market players , it is like stock pickers letting you know they have these stocks in their portfolio before discussing the stocks. It is. It is Kind of sad when so call researchers and market experts are active participants in the marketing of the products they cover. When companies are paying these people large fees to cover these subjects , do you really get the all the information that helps collectors make decisions , i think it would serve forum members and collectors a service if these relationships are released before the coverage so we can make a fair judgement of the information provided. When special information is produced for these marketing companies and large fees pay will we get fair coverage of these Products by the person with these relationships? Just something to think about?



Our 2016 Macau and 2017 Berlin , 50 percent or more of the mintage was sold to local coin society members or at the show?

Offline KeepOnTrying!

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Re: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money
« Reply #114 on: August 14, 2017, 10:06:22 PM »
Another thought for show pandas designation perhaps that significant percentage of the show pandas ( 33 1/3 percent to 50 percent ) offered are released locally or sold at the show , some issues are purely just for marketing companies like the smaller show panda issues like last year's small regional state show where very limited sales were at the show and most pre-sold to marketing companies? I think the person arranging this project did a special version and did quite well selling these " show panda " product to collectors but aftermarket prices for these pandas show are much lower than release price , they were not up to the standards of the show pandas like Ana Anaheim panda where the gold one ounce still trades at over usd 5,000 on ebay which is way above the usd 1891 show release price. These issues should not be designated at show pandas as most were sold elsewhere and only the distributors profited from a product with limited interest? Show they be label as special pandas.

It is just a little concerning that people who are bring up issues should also let collectors know they are active market players , it is like stock pickers letting you know they have these stocks in their portfolio before discussing the stocks. It is. It is Kind of sad when so call researchers and market experts are active participants in the marketing of the products they cover. When companies are paying these people large fees to cover these subjects , do you really get the all the information that helps collectors make decisions , i think it would serve forum members and collectors a service if these relationships are released before the coverage so we can make a fair judgement of the information provided. When special information is produced for these marketing companies and large fees pay will we get fair coverage of these Products by the person with these relationships? Just something to think about?



Our 2016 Macau and 2017 Berlin , 50 percent or more of the mintage was sold to local coin society members or at the show?

You kind of jumped the rail here!
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Offline Championhk

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Re: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money
« Reply #115 on: August 14, 2017, 10:19:05 PM »
I think when people has these special relationships they should let people know or sometimes information presented are more like infomercials . It is kind of sad people presenting issues are also the same people who benefited from these relationships? I think it is just fair if the collectors here can get a fair picture of what the relationships are before making a decision?

Offline pandaberlin

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Re: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money
« Reply #116 on: August 15, 2017, 01:43:28 AM »
If you try to milk collectors dry by forcing them to buy super rare super expensive items if they want to be complete the market will sooner or later collapse and the official mints should be smarter than that.
The above example isn't the only one (Complete collection of french euro coins, anyone?)

I want to give Jens 100 points for his last post, which is exactly what I have been thinking when re-considering everything that has been written yet.

As "Championhk" implied that the people who are criticizing the Pandas medals are driving in fact their own agenda and making money with Pandas, I can make very clear: I am not a dealer. I am a coin collector for around 40 years now. I started with China coins when MDM was the exclusive distributor in Germany. I love coins and I especially love China coins, but what happens with the recent Panda medals, makes me sick.

The story of children being presented with Panda medals at the WMF in Berlin is quite cure actually, but I seriously doubt that. In fact, me and two friends were at your booth where all of the special varieties were on display. We asked if it was possible to get a tri-metallic medal and were told: "They are not sold."

I have so many questions: Why is there even a Tri-Metallic version of the Berlin Panda if it is not available to the general public? Why do - all of a sudden - so many varieties pop up after the show? What about the 15 Gramm Silver High Relief Concave WMF Panda? Or the 16 Gramm Gold version? Or the 50 Gramm special edition? None of these were available at the show, all of these are only available at MCM in the USA for horrendous prices. And what about the Gold, Brass, Copper versions of the Berlin Panda? How should any ordinary collector have a chance to optain these without paying thousands of Euros?

Dear "Championhk" ... maybe you see now that you are not speaking with professional dealers, but with passionate collectors who are dissappointed.

I think that in another forum post, you told about the latest Panda medal in Germany and portrayed is as a non-profit project to promote friendship. You also told that the first strike medals were distributed for free to the attendees of the First Strike ceremony. Two of my business partners attended the ceremony. This event was not open to the public, it was just hand-picked VIPs and some friends and family (I went under this ticket because one of my best friends works at the Berlin mint) and no one there received anything, no silver or brass or NGC graded medals.

I am pretty sure that all of this stuff will show up on eBay soon and make a few people very happy who really make money with projects like these ;-)

From my point of view, anybody who buys the medals will be disappointed in the end ... just look at the Munich Panda of 2017. It was sold for 200 euros and the ebay value in europe is 150 euros now - with a mintage of 2017 pieces. The Berlin 2017 WMF Panda prices are also going down. The new Sino-German silver medal has a mintage of 3000 pieces ... so let me guess which direction the prices will take very soon.

Offline Championhk

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Re: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money
« Reply #117 on: August 15, 2017, 02:52:01 AM »
Hello Berlinpanda :

I am glad you are bring up these issues.

For Berlin money fair we took a corner booth to pass out 1500 Macau coins for free to people with coin albums . We did not put any items for sale at our table. The table cost us over 2,000 euros and we hired a hostess since we did not speak german.

Yes we did not offer any trimetal for sale at the table but we did give away many of them at the table to kids and people with the coin albums and at the ceremony, I am sorry you did not get one . Yes i think if we offered the trimetal for  sale I am certain we could have sold many of them. But the trimetal is a test issue at the Shanghai mint , there is production problems so we just give them away as samples in cooperation with the Shanghai mint.

As for the Sino German medals we had planned to give away to attendeee one of the medals , but the director of the mint dr Andréas Schikora vetoed both kunker and I as he felt that the Chinese embassy should distribute the medals first  , we sent 800 out of the 1,000 sets to Germany , the Chinese embassy had originally planned to get 500 sets and 300 sets goes to Berlin mint , Künker and champion. But the Chinese embassy made the request to move that number to 700 sets as the turnout for the panda ceremony was much larger than expected and the Chinese delegation was also larger. We are very greatfyul dr Schikora and kunker all agree to split the 100 sets and give up the 200 additional sets to the Chinese embassy , due to dr Schikora's policy , no medals will be given out until after the Chinese embassy has a chance to distribute the medals first. Kunker went on summer vacation after the ceremony it is expected they will sent out medals to people attending the ceremony in September. Since you have a friend at the Berlin mint you can confirmed this with him and dr Schikora . Also we worked out a deal with Chinese embassy for the dr schikora and the Berlin mint to make their own version of 1,000 mintage with the same german Hoyer design for sale at a reasonable price of 10 euro on the Berlin mint website right after the ceremony. As a matter of fact I purchased 100 of these to give away to friends and panda collectors back home.

 Also for the purpose of facts we turn down An extremely large order from a leading german numismatic marketing company for our medal , the order was more than double our official mintage of 3,000.  This company later went on to produce 20,000 of the Sino German medals without us in Germany and also in China! 

I am extremely pleased that you are avid panda collector and points out the various issues , don't you think it is better to get the full story instead of getting incomplete stories from people not directly involved? We are not always right and we can learn from each other, but you have to understand the various different factors involved in making decisions about product developememts in today's market.

Offline Championhk

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Re: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money
« Reply #118 on: August 15, 2017, 03:05:20 AM »
Also due to security of the attendance of the Chinese embassdor and his german counterpart This could not have been a open event , also the Berlin mint already reduced its security by allowimg people to roam around the minting machines , we actually saw other coins and medals being struck.we went back the next day as coin week charles Morgan want. To shoot some Machines we could not even get on the floor without the director Sochikora being at the mint.

Also I did invite some panda collectors like golden lord and his girl friend from Bavaria to the event but they found it too far to go and also many people were on summer holidays like mr Hoyer the designer. We had coins weekly , coin week , and reps from munzen revue and coin couch attending to provide to up to date coverage of the event for german, European , and us collectros . we had people attending from the us and Shanghai tom the event.

Offline pandaberlin

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Re: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money
« Reply #119 on: August 15, 2017, 03:08:48 AM »
Hi Championhk. Thank you for trying to clarify some of the issues. But I think that your answer just shows again the core of the problem: Most of the medals are distributed to VIPs, friends and family or at least there is a very unclear distribution policy - at lest the general public does not have the chance to obtain one for their collection.

That could, as you have confirmed in your last post, also be seen at the WMF 2017 with the Tri-Metallic Panda (giving them to children might be nice, but what about people who don't have children?). The COTY ceremony and the dinner, where the Brass and Copper versions were distributed, were not open to the public, as far as I know. In fact, I have the impression that those medals are a special scheme to reward certain people - but the ones who pay will be the ordinary collectors who try to have a complete collection. And I feel very frustrated to see that the ordinary collector always comes last in the line.

And still, so many questions remain open. I am especially interested why you offer two versions of the Panda at a show - Berlin World Money Fair - and distribute around ten different versions afterwards. What about the 15 Gramm Silver High Relief Concave WMF Panda? Or the 16 Gramm Gold version? Or the 50 Gramm special edition? This migt be fun for VIPs, but it is a mess for ordinary collectors.

And without being rude, I think that there are many irregularities ... I think at some other occasion, you told that all of the Brass Berlin medals were given for this ominous VIP zoo ceremony - but weren't some of the brass medals put of for lottery at the ANA show at your table? You should see that your information causes at least some kind of irritation.

Offline Championhk

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Re: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money
« Reply #120 on: August 15, 2017, 03:25:19 AM »
Hello,panda Berlin

There is a brass set for distribution at the panda turnover ceremony and there is a set of silver that anyone can buy from kunker in Germany. Also if you do not want to spend more than 100 euros you can get the Berlin mint version for 10 euro.

The Sino German medal is not a show medal it is design to meet the needs of friendship bewtween china and Germany and the panda turnover ceremony. You seem to have a policy that everything should be distribute for your needs if that is the case I am sure you can get whatever your need from mdm as they will sell you items from a few irons to 100,000 euro.

Does mdm report to you on what their distribution polices are if you are so unhappy with the products perhaps you can voice your needs to world money fair CEO Jens who used to work for mdm and was the manager of the Munich pandas for many years? I feel strongly we have do as much as we can to promote the issues to locals collecting pubic while some issues are not as easy to obtain as others this is problem many face  today. At Denver Ana I try to get one of the special surface sets from the us mint booth but was told the entire 225,000 mintage was sold out , I feel the distribution policy was not favorable to me , but many people obtain the sets , so I just have to get them on the secondary market.






Offline pandaberlin

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Re: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money
« Reply #121 on: August 15, 2017, 03:34:17 AM »
Well, again my question: Why is there a free brass set (which will go up in value) for VIPs and an expensive silver set (which will probably go down in value) for collectors?

Just one remark about your question:


Does mdm report to you on what their distribution polices?


Actually, they don't. But you can ask any German collector what they think about MDM ... MDM has the lowest possible reputation and no serious collector would even think of considering them as a legitimate dealer. But when it comes to the modern Panda medals, we are talking about official mint products which are highly respected ... and I think that also Champion Auction was highly respected before starting this scheme of rewarding friends and family with award-style Panda medals while the regular collector has to stand in line and pay much money for items that will go down in pricing very soon.

Offline pandaberlin

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Re: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money
« Reply #122 on: August 15, 2017, 03:37:26 AM »
I feel strongly we have do as much as we can to promote the issues to locals collecting pubic while some issues are not as easy to obtain as others this is problem many face  today.

I feel that you are in fact doing the opposite of that ... at least I don't see that anybody in Germany is applauding those "friendship" medals ... and I see the reason in the distribution policy that became very apparent during this forum discussion.

Offline Championhk

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Re: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money
« Reply #123 on: August 15, 2017, 05:18:09 AM »
Sorry you feel this way , we just have move on . All the parties involved feel very good about the project and look forward to additional synergy in the future . Please have a nice day .

Offline KeepOnTrying!

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Re: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money
« Reply #124 on: August 15, 2017, 08:55:30 AM »
Sorry you feel this way , we just have move on . All the parties involved feel very good about the project and look forward to additional synergy in the future . Please have a nice day .

Your story has been very convoluted but within it is information clearly demonstrating the contribution of your company to the current upheaval in Chinese medal collection; with so many medal variants and almost illogical and random manner of distribution and the opacity of your operations. I haven't read anything you wrote that restores faith that is being eroded.

It is usually best to identify whoever you feel is being disingenuous in our conversations. If you are not willing to do so do not make blanket accusations because is drops the quality of the conversation unless that is what you intended.
KeepOnTrying and Never Give Up!
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Offline sdd1jmc

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Re: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money
« Reply #125 on: August 15, 2017, 09:27:19 AM »
Not too change the subject but I was able to purchase 2 enhanced uncirculated sets from the US mint both on the last day of the ANA show.

Offline pandaberlin

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Re: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money
« Reply #126 on: August 15, 2017, 09:52:20 AM »
It is usually best to identify whoever you feel is being disingenuous in our conversations. If you are not willing to do so do not make blanket accusations because is drops the quality of the conversation unless that is what you intended.

@"KeepOnTrying!": I totally agree with that. I also felt kind of offended by this general accusation. I am not a dealer and not affiliated with any dealers. I am friends with two regular staff members of the Berlin Mint, who were not involved in the production of the Panda medals. And after "having a nice day" with some time thinking about this discussion, I feel that "Championhk" has not answered any of the central questions.

In fact, I would have been very happy to hear some clarifying words, but I have the impression that under the disguise of "numismatic friendship", those Yu Min show panda medals seem like a big moneymaking machine which will destroy the fascinating Panda medal market within an instance - and you can already see the effects of this policy when you look up the current prices for the show pandas.

ANY of the "numismatic friends" who bought the medals directly at the show or for a fixed price at dealers like Kuenker, ModernCoinMart, Apmex and others, will lose money in the coming months, because the items are overpriced and because there is a huge load of varieties that no regular collector can manage to obtain.

Offline pandaberlin

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Re: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money
« Reply #127 on: August 15, 2017, 10:08:06 AM »
I would like to add my last statement with the following example of the World Money Fair 2017 in Berlin.

Two versions were sold at the show to the general public:

1. One ounce Silver (Mintage: 1000)
2. Eight gram Silver (Mintage: 1000)

Those versions were not sold at the show, but distributed to undisclosed recipients:

3. One ounce Gold (Mintage: 20)
4. Copper Piedfort (Mintage: 150) -> as far as I understood, they were distributed at some VIP party dinner during World Money Fair
5. Brass Piedfort (Mintage: 46) -> no idea where they went
6. Tri-Metallic High-Relief (Mintage: 500) -> there is also a variety with and without reeded edge
7. Tri-Metallic High Relief Piedfort Sample (Mintage: 10)

Those versions were not sold at the show, but appeared without further notice on eBay (especially via ModernCoinMart):

8. Fifty gram Silver (Mintage: 300) -> asking price on ebay is around 2.000 euros
9. Piedfort Concave Silver 16 gramm (Mintage: 300)
10. Mini Panda 8g Gold Proof (Mintage: 100) -> asking price around 800 euros
11. Mini Panda 16g Gold Proof (Mintage: 30) -> asking price around 1600 euros

Now I wonder how the other forum members feel about this inflation of weights and dimensions, which add up to 11 different versions of a single medal for a single event.

Offline collectingcoins

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Re: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money
« Reply #128 on: August 15, 2017, 10:45:30 AM »
How I feel about it?  I'm staying away from show medals from this point forward.  This has been an education, and I'm dumbfounded.  No more for me.  I'm sticking with what many of you have been educating me on: Older gold or silver pre 2010 govt issued bullion coins.  This has been a fascinating journey as a newbie.  I'm shocked. Keepontrying hit the nail on the head about making accusations, but not highlighting names.  It appears this person is trying to disparage others, while putting themselves and partner on a pedestal.  Well, as far as I'm concerned, it back fired.  No more for me. 

Offline pandaberlin

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Re: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money
« Reply #129 on: August 15, 2017, 02:19:47 PM »
Wow ... I just discovered another intriguing detail:

Didn't "Championhk" just tell that all the 2017 Sino-German friendship brass medals were distributed among VIPs some strange "zoo ceremony" in Berlin?

Well, then 90 of those VIPs obviously took a group trip to NGC right after the ceremony ... because 90 of the 1500 pieces are already have an NGC grade:

https://www.ngccoin.com/census/world/china-panda-series/sc-367/brass/

Just keep in mind: The ceremony took place less than two months ago. And the medals were distributed in raw form, without being graded.

Not to mention, "Championhk" offers several of the "never available to the public" brass medals in his very own summer auction...

...so, dear "Championhk", please stop making a fool of everybody in this forum !!!

Offline Jens

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Re: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money
« Reply #130 on: August 15, 2017, 05:21:15 PM »
How I feel about it?  I'm staying away from show medals from this point forward.  This has been an education, and I'm dumbfounded.  No more for me.  I'm sticking with what many of you have been educating me on: Older gold or silver pre 2010 govt issued bullion coins.  This has been a fascinating journey as a newbie.  I'm shocked. Keepontrying hit the nail on the head about making accusations, but not highlighting names.  It appears this person is trying to disparage others, while putting themselves and partner on a pedestal.  Well, as far as I'm concerned, it back fired.  No more for me. 

This seems to me is the most sensible thing to do at this point, unfortunately. It's what i'll also do.

Offline poconopenn

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Re: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money
« Reply #131 on: August 15, 2017, 05:46:42 PM »
pandaberlin,

+1

Welcome to the forum and thanks for sharing information. The transparency is one of the important factor for collectors in determining if they want to purchasing the item they like. Many sponsors of the medals promote their items in this forum. Sometimes, they do not fully disclose, including the relationship to the items. IMO, the sponsors will never disclose the distribution channels.


Offline pandamonium

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Re: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money
« Reply #132 on: August 15, 2017, 06:28:17 PM »
How I feel about it?  I'm staying away from show medals from this point forward.  This has been an education, and I'm dumbfounded.  No more for me.  I'm sticking with what many of you have been educating me on: Older gold or silver pre 2010 govt issued bullion coins.  This has been a fascinating journey as a newbie.  I'm shocked. Keepontrying hit the nail on the head about making accusations, but not highlighting names.  It appears this person is trying to disparage others, while putting themselves and partner on a pedestal.  Well, as far as I'm concerned, it back fired.  No more for me. 



When you get to know seasoned collectors/dealers they will point you in the direction of early year, starting 1979 for MCC.      Early year, low mintage and high grade.       Vintage coins maybe the wild card as some are over 100 yrs old like the Empire silvers.     Who knows which segment of this market will end up on top but we will soon find out.......

Offline bonke

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Re: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money
« Reply #133 on: August 15, 2017, 06:56:10 PM »
As a collector, I purchased one of the Berlin medals (16 gram piefort gold panda) from MCM.  At the time, I struggled with the price (premium over spot).  With the low mintage (30), I worried and worried and finally decided to spend the money and add this Berlin medal to my collection.  I did not realize the gold piefort was just one of a multitude of medals commemorating this event in Berlin.  Fortunately, I did not purchase the other gold, silver, brass, tri-metallic, etc., medals for this event.

The discussion on the coin forum as been very helpful to me as a collector of modern Chinese "show pandas" or what I (as an old collector) call "modern Chinese medals".  With the gold and silver medals released for the Singapore, Philadelphia and Berlin coin shows a few years ago, the market for these medals has grown and grown.  This created an opportunity for the modern Chinese coin dealers to make some money off of these events, and has helped them weather the storm of a long-term decline in the market for modern Chinese coins.  Their activities are understandable.

As a collector, I have to face reality and stop purchasing these new issues (without regard to the event they are commemorating).  I can no longer avoid and deny the information provided on this China coin forum.

Mark Bonke

Offline pandaberlin

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Re: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money
« Reply #134 on: August 16, 2017, 12:55:17 AM »
@Bonke: Hi Marc. I want to thank you for your personal insight and honest words. I would totally be okay with the fact that some dealers want to make money. But they should not fool collectors by showing off their projects as "non-profit" and by adding another medal variety every three days.

The folks at "Championhk" always highlight the "friendship" aspect of their work, but honestly: Do you treat friends like this? Ripping off more and more money from your friends? Telling your friends more and more stories ("medals were given to children") that are at least highly doubtful?

Well, I know that friendships sometimes work like this, but I still take the freedom to feel disgusted by that. And to make it clear once again: I am not a hater or enemy or competitor of "Championkh" or any other dealers on this forum. I am a regular collector, just like most of the people on the CCF.

I originally just wanted to give my "two cents" on the discussion, but I felt personally offended by the arrogant way that "Championhk" dealt with the situation, so I looked into the matter in depth - this might be a negative character trait, but this is what I always do when people try to dumbfool me. And as you all read, there are many details surrounding the work of the "Championhk" organisation that I find highly irritating...as well as the communication of the Champion guys here on the forum.

Offline Championhk

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Re: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money
« Reply #135 on: August 16, 2017, 05:00:29 AM »
Berlinpanda

1)I would like to know did you confirm the story of the sino German medal release with dr Schikora of Berlin mint? Perhaps you can give me the name of your friends at the Berlin mint and dr Schikora can tell them in person?

2) if you would like to confirm if any Berlin bimetallic were given out you can confirm with world money fair CEO Jens or managing director Barbara as they can confirmed this with the hostess they provided to us for the table. Just because you did not get one does not mean others did not , it is simple to confirm as all the people are in Germany.

I think it will be helpful if you can communicate with your real name so we know you are a real person as everyone here in forum is well know and can confirmed their identity . You say you had two friends who attended the first strike ceremony , I knew everyone who came to the first strike except the Berlin mint employees , but you mention your two friends were in the trade , the only trade people in modern coins were two people from emk and uwe from a marketing company and both of these group purchased the Sino German medals from Künker and I assume very happy with their purchase?

 So I am not sure who your two friends from the trade were? Do any other german collectors or dealers know you since you said you have  been collecting for a very long time? Were you with the Berlin mint employees at the first strike since like I mention I knew ALL of the non Berlin mint people , how do we know you were even there?

3) since we posted that we sent 800 sets out of 1,000 brass sets to Germany isn't there 200 sets remaining and since mintage of the yu min medal is 1,500 does that mean there are  700 yu min brass pieces that was not in the sets sent to Germany ?

4) since you stated the yu min medals will lead to huge profit for everyone please tell me how since you seems to know the business much better than I do? I am also thinking about this since we sold out of 2,000 2016 Berlin pandas why did we reduce the mintage to 1,000 in 2017? will this help us generate the huge profit you mention?  It is kind of strange we deters from this huge profit strategy you mention?

 1,000 Sino German sets was sent to Künker for Germany and European sales with the 19 percent tax going to Germany  the 17 percent value added tax also was paid in china combined with fed express shipping cost  , designer cost, die cost , cost of packaging . how much margin do you think there is per set?  if you  deduct  the cost of the donated sets to Germany there seem to be not a great amount of profit left ? and considering the four months this project took to finish and the cost of setting up the first strike ceremony ?  Do you think this a huge profit project ?

Due to the summer vacation we just received the German version of the Sino German medals from Künker recently , they were offered  in the us and in china in limited quantities. Since the event was in Germany most of the interest is coming out of Germany. As I mention before mdm's own version of the Sino German medals has sold  20,000 or more!  If we just wanted to generate the huge profit you mention  we could have just worked with mdm since they try to order more than double the mintage of 3,000 from us BUT we did not! Perhaps you are confusing with the huge profit mdm is generating with the medal we are producing?

5) since you makes many statement I would like to for you to show me anywhere that mcm has offered the 50 gram silver Berlin panda since I do not remember selling any to them?
The other Berlin pandas were NOT sold by champion to mcm but by a Hong Kong company who does business with mcm.

I know that perhaps some people have different opinions about how programs are run, but at the end you have a choice to decide whether to participate ? Making these accusation without proof is somewhat confusing for me since I have not seen any facts from you? but I guess if you are unhappy you can you have your say like the price will collapse on the medals we produce? So far all the medals we hav produce have kept at or higher than the show release price some much higher like the Ana Anaheim gold!   , I think people just have to decide for themselves on the merit of each program.


Offline Championhk

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Re: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money
« Reply #136 on: August 16, 2017, 07:26:37 AM »
Um interesting a german friend who also read the post of Berlinpanda brings up a very interesting issue? Berlinpand's usage of English words are very different from the typical german , did Berlinpanda study in the us or went to an English school? Obvious his English is much better than me as I am not a native English speaker?

A Chinese friend was also very impressed by Berlinpanda's English skills , the only german person I know wth English skills close to Berlinpanda is sebastien an editor of munzen review who also contributed artIcles in English for my journal on the german coin market , past articles  submitted from our German friends required our English editor from Canada to make some revisions , but Berlinpanda is quite good at expressions in a non native language with local usage, maybe Berlinpanda is also a professional writer?  We are now all wondering the true identity of Berlinpanda after the feedback from german ,Chinese , and American readers of his post. No matter what we feel about the show pandas ,  we should all thank Berlinpanda that we have now much more information about the show pandas and we can feel his passion about the 2017 Berlin pandas!

When I travel to Germany again, , I will communicate his opinion to my German counterparts  we are excited to have feedback from a true collector who is passionate about the Berlin panda! Perhaps he can sent me a communication in german which I can forward and it  will be easier for them to understand?

Online ccl

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Re: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money
« Reply #137 on: August 16, 2017, 07:55:32 AM »
Um interesting a german friend who also read the post of Berlinpanda brings up a very interesting issue? Berlinpand's usage of English words are very different from the typical german , did Berlinpanda study in the us or went to an English school? Obvious his English is much better than me as I am not a native English speaker?

A Chinese friend was also very impressed by Berlinpanda's English skills , the only german person I know wth English skills close to Berlinpanda is sebastien an editor of munzen review who also contributed artIcles in English for my journal on the german coin market , past articles  submitted from our German friends required our English editor from Canada to make some revisions , but Berlinpanda is quite good at expressions in a non native language with local usage, maybe Berlinpanda is also a professional writer?  We are now all wondering the true identity of Berlinpanda after the feedback from german ,Chinese , and American readers of his post. No matter what we feel about the show pandas ,  we should all thank Berlinpanda that we have now much more information about the show pandas and we can feel his passion about the 2017 Berlin pandas!

When I travel to Germany again, , I will communicate his opinion to my German counterparts  we are excited to have feedback from a true collector who is passionate about the Berlin panda! Perhaps he can sent me a communication in german which I can forward and it  will be easier for them to understand?

I couldn't care less who pandaberlin is. Also, your posts look desperate.

Offline Championhk

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Re: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money
« Reply #138 on: August 16, 2017, 08:11:22 AM »
Just some feedback from people I know that have read the posts , we try to provide some answers but I guess it does not matter. A good exercise in patience and let me practice my English which can be much improved.

Offline KeepOnTrying!

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Re: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money
« Reply #139 on: August 16, 2017, 09:40:46 AM »
Um interesting a german friend who also read the post of Berlinpanda brings up a very interesting issue? Berlinpand's usage of English words are very different from the typical german , did Berlinpanda study in the us or went to an English school? Obvious his English is much better than me as I am not a native English speaker?

A Chinese friend was also very impressed by Berlinpanda's English skills , the only german person I know wth English skills close to Berlinpanda is sebastien an editor of munzen review who also contributed artIcles in English for my journal on the german coin market , past articles  submitted from our German friends required our English editor from Canada to make some revisions , but Berlinpanda is quite good at expressions in a non native language with local usage, maybe Berlinpanda is also a professional writer?  We are now all wondering the true identity of Berlinpanda after the feedback from german ,Chinese , and American readers of his post. No matter what we feel about the show pandas ,  we should all thank Berlinpanda that we have now much more information about the show pandas and we can feel his passion about the 2017 Berlin pandas!

When I travel to Germany again, , I will communicate his opinion to my German counterparts  we are excited to have feedback from a true collector who is passionate about the Berlin panda! Perhaps he can sent me a communication in german which I can forward and it  will be easier for them to understand?

These are unfortunate comments but in line with what I have seen being done in this hobby since I started collecting. The veneer of respectability tends to wear off fast!

When I started collecting Chinese coins I quickly built up the traditional fare including the date set silver panda coins, historical, inventions and discoveries and the gold panda coins and so on.

Somewhere along the line I discovered panda medals and found them more exciting but with time saw that the “excitement” was as a result of the MASSIVE HYPE surrounding these medals. And the hype did not come from one source only.

I have seen my ardor cool off over time as I do not relish being repeatedly taken for a ride by individuals who turn out not to have any interest in nurturing long term medal collection, and this refers not only to sponsors but to other middle men and conflicted participants.

This is quite a pity because the varying designs and innovative minting technology used in producing medals confer a lot of eye appeal.

I hope that this area of collection gets cleaned up with time so that people who collect medals can be confident they are not loading up with useless pieces of metallic junk.

Until then everyone should be cautious; the contents of this thread alone provide ample warning. I am however not telling anyone what to collect. Unfortunately, it is only with time and repeated bad experience that people become better collectors.
KeepOnTrying and Never Give Up!
That lion is also after you!

Offline pandaberlin

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Re: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money
« Reply #140 on: August 16, 2017, 10:19:09 AM »
@Championhk: Is a very old-school approach to rant and ask for names if you run out of arguments. In fact, weren't you insinuating that you already knew very well about the identity of anybody was participating in this discussion ("active market players"). Now you continues to blame "professional writers" for this? Who's next?

I am glad to see that the other participants of this discussion were indeed interested in all information that I collected, and could pretty easily draw their own conclusion. I feel very annoyed by the fact that you try to portrait discussion as a battle between good (=you) and bad (=some anonymous dealers who benefit from your medals).

@KeepOnTrying: I thank you a lot for your comment, which brings the discussion back to it's original focus and also makes clear that this whole discussion here is not very helpful to build trust.

Offline TU

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Re: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money
« Reply #141 on: August 16, 2017, 03:53:04 PM »
I have been to the WMF 2017.
At the Macau Desk I was told that the tri-metal Panda is at this day not for sale and while I talked to ChampionHK I recognized that the hostess gave those medals as a present to some visitors.

I also was part of the ceremony at Berlin. I don't know a lot of the few people who stayed there but I think it was clear that at this day nobody would get any coin.
All coins were supposed to be handed out on another day.

I don't know a lot about actually medals and the market around this coins , because I am more interested in older chinese coins.
But if you talk about modern german coins it is usually said that the mintage is to high, so nobody wants the coins and medals.
So the Panda should be much more better than that, isn't it.
At the day of the ceremony I was also part of a discussion about medals at all. And of course there are dealers who only try to make money with the collectors.
ChampionHK was the only one who fighted for high quality and a mintage which reach the collectors.

I think.it is clear that nobody wants to pay thousands of euros for coins but if you want to have some good ones, you have to pay more than 100 euros and it doesn't depend one your special interests of coins.

After all, have all the critical collectors recognized what ChampionHK has done for the sino german friendship?

You can find the donation of the otto beh dies at www.kenom.de for everybody who is interested. You find all the pictures of the Krüger Collection there too. All the pictures you find where only possible because ChampionHK made a big donation to the museum. And finally the Journal of East Asian Numismatics which made an exchange of all the information possible.

As a collector you should know, that a complete collection is usually not possible or very expensive since there are some exclusive coins in every complete collection.
Thomas


Offline KeyDate1/2ozPandas

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Re: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money
« Reply #142 on: August 17, 2017, 07:02:42 PM »
Welcome to the forum TU. 

I think the bigger picture that this thread has made very clear to me is that show medal promoters are taking advantage of collectors by issuing multiple varieties for the sole purpose to line their greedy pockets, while promoting themselves as ambassadors of the industry and friends to collectors.  This reminds me of Bernie Madoff being non-executive chairman of the NASDAQ, while running the biggest ponzi scheme in history.

Almost all collectors would agree that having just 1oz silver and 1oz gold distributed fairly at a show is a reasonable way to commemorative a show.  IMHO there is no need for all the other crap produced with copper, brass, pieforts, bimetals, etc.

It will be interesting to see how show medals perform going forward and how promoters adjust to collector backlash. 

Offline collectingcoins

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Re: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money
« Reply #143 on: August 17, 2017, 08:44:13 PM »
Welcome to the forum TU. 

I think the bigger picture that this thread has made very clear to me is that show medal promoters are taking advantage of collectors by issuing multiple varieties for the sole purpose to line their greedy pockets, while promoting themselves as ambassadors of the industry and friends to collectors.  This reminds me of Bernie Madoff being non-executive chairman of the NASDAQ, while running the biggest ponzi scheme in history.

Almost all collectors would agree that having just 1oz silver and 1oz gold distributed fairly at a show is a reasonable way to commemorative a show.  IMHO there is no need for all the other crap produced with copper, brass, pieforts, bimetals, etc.

It will be interesting to see how show medals perform going forward and how promoters adjust to collector backlash.

This is about the most poignant and clear post on this subject I've read.  Thank you.  It does appear all this 'crap' is a recent phenomena.  Until it is cleared up, and proven, I'm staying away from show pandas.  Thanks again for this thoughtful, concise and direct post.

Offline bender9876

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Re: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money
« Reply #144 on: August 18, 2017, 04:09:32 AM »
Thank you for all this information. Very interesting. Im sure this goes on with other show coins too. N26

Offline pandamonium

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Re: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money
« Reply #145 on: August 18, 2017, 12:42:45 PM »
Welcome to the forum TU. 

I think the bigger picture that this thread has made very clear to me is that show medal promoters are taking advantage of collectors by issuing multiple varieties for the sole purpose to line their greedy pockets, while promoting themselves as ambassadors of the industry and friends to collectors.  This reminds me of Bernie Madoff being non-executive chairman of the NASDAQ, while running the biggest ponzi scheme in history.

Almost all collectors would agree that having just 1oz silver and 1oz gold distributed fairly at a show is a reasonable way to commemorative a show.  IMHO there is no need for all the other crap produced with copper, brass, pieforts, bimetals, etc.

It will be interesting to see how show medals perform going forward and how promoters adjust to collector backlash. 




Arif;  I see you listed some very good gold pandas.      Are you overstocked or do you see a change such as a price drop in the market?......

Offline KeyDate1/2ozPandas

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Re: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money
« Reply #146 on: August 18, 2017, 04:25:53 PM »
For the last three years I have been reducing the volume (space required) of my collection, breaking up sets and keeping high numismatic items (premiums at least 50% above melt). 

Lately, I have decided setting up at shows is no longer a viable business model and will walk the talk and go to full online model for selling, which is why you are seeing more coins on ebay and my website.

Finally, with the supply of key date material dwindling in the US (except during April-May of this year, thanks to Goldsheet), I will start transitioning from 30% dealer/30% collector/40% investor to 10% dealer/30% collector/60% investor. 

Offline mazinger7000

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Re: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money
« Reply #147 on: August 18, 2017, 06:16:59 PM »
For the last three years I have been reducing the volume (space required) of my collection, breaking up sets and keeping high numismatic items (premiums at least 50% above melt). 

Lately, I have decided setting up at shows is no longer a viable business model and will walk the talk and go to full online model for selling, which is why you are seeing more coins on ebay and my website.

Finally, with the supply of key date material dwindling in the US (except during April-May of this year, thanks to Goldsheet), I will start transitioning from 30% dealer/30% collector/40% investor to 10% dealer/30% collector/60% investor. 

we are officially off topic now, but will you still attend the bigger domestic shows like long beach, or cease attending and just do business online?

Offline PandaCollector

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Re: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money
« Reply #148 on: August 18, 2017, 06:59:24 PM »
we are officially off topic now, but will you still attend the bigger domestic shows like long beach, or cease attending and just do business online?

Arif is not the only coin dealer who has abandoned setting up at coin shows, but still attends them. Adam Biagi is another example and I bump into many others at shows. "Where's your table I ask?" "I don't have one is the reply." Attendance at American shows, in general, is low enough that the shows are marginal business propositions. Tables are a major expense. They remain very useful for buying, less so for selling. Also, if a dealer ends up trading mostly with other dealers at a show, what's the point of having a table?

Asian coin shows, which are  often heavily attended, are a different story altogether.

I expect to see Arif at future coin shows as he walks the floor.

Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
China Pricepedia
The Gold & Silver Panda Coin Buyer’s Guide 3
www.pandacollector.com

Offline KeyDate1/2ozPandas

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Re: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money
« Reply #149 on: August 18, 2017, 07:17:04 PM »
I will still walk the first day of the show a few times a year, but not set up.  90%+ of my business is with other dealers or pre-arranged with collectors and can be concluded in one day.

Take the ANA for example, it is 5 day show or 7 days if you include the pre-show.  The cost of table is around $2000, hotel/car/parking is around $200/day and air $400, so rough total is $3400 plus 6 days of  you life.  If you could accomplish 90% of the transactions in 1 day walking around your cost is like $500 or 15% of what it costs to set up, plus you have 5 days of your life to do other things, like take pictures for ebay, play sport, start another business, volunteer, etc. 

Even the mainland dealers who come to buy only attend the setup day and 1st day of the show at Long Beach, you will never see them on Friday or Saturday. 

Offline MrOrganic

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Re: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money
« Reply #150 on: August 22, 2017, 03:34:29 AM »
I feel like there thousands of chinese coins with 1000 mintage & less

lololol
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Offline wg

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Re: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money
« Reply #151 on: September 01, 2017, 05:34:26 AM »
I feel like there thousands of chinese coins with 1000 mintage & less

..

 and i feel like there are thousands of chinese medals with 1000 mintage & less

 N17
 N36
 

Offline PandaCollector

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Re: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money
« Reply #152 on: September 02, 2017, 04:26:48 PM »
I feel like there thousands of chinese coins with 1000 mintage & less

lololol

Would you care to name a few (hundred)?

Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
China Pricepedia
The Gold & Silver Panda Coin Buyer’s Guide 3
www.pandacollector.com

Offline collectingcoins

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Re: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money
« Reply #153 on: September 11, 2017, 02:31:17 PM »
it's been a while since I've posted.  but I've been actively following the threads, and learning a lot.  thanks for sharing all the information.  I'll be posting a picture of sweet gold panda 1 oz panda I received in the wow of the day.  In the meantime, I've seen this posted on eBay.  Is there a reason this ANA Denver from MCM is priced so high?  Isn't the mintage on these 5000?  Is there something I'm not seeing as to why this is priced so high?  Thank you.


http://www.ebay.com/itm/2017-China-Denver-ANA-Money-Show-Panda-1-oz-Silver-Medal-NGC-PF70-UC-SKU49245-/132320353292?hash=item1ecee85c0c:g:LOMAAOSw8a1ZsBCe

Offline sdd1jmc

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Re: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money
« Reply #154 on: September 11, 2017, 02:36:42 PM »
I was at the ANA show only 300 were available at the show due to issues with the mint. This would limit the ANA label to 300, currently NGC has graded 79 proof 70 and 97 as proof 69, Sorry don't have PCGS numbers.

Offline collectingcoins

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Re: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money
« Reply #155 on: September 11, 2017, 02:49:30 PM »
But isn't the mintage 5000?  I can see if there were only 300 listed as the mintage, but at any point all 5000 can minted, today, next year, and 10 years from now?  Or is there a certain period of time that all 5000 need to be minted?  Thank you.

Offline sdd1jmc

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Re: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money
« Reply #156 on: September 11, 2017, 03:03:32 PM »
Paying for the NGC label,  only way to get ANA label was to submit coin at the show for grading.  2 pf70 have sold on eBay for $500 already. I don't see the $2500 price tag. 

Offline Mirkkanen

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Re: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money
« Reply #157 on: September 11, 2017, 03:19:24 PM »
Don't fall for the gimmicks

Offline collectingcoins

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Re: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money
« Reply #158 on: September 11, 2017, 03:34:34 PM »
Paying for the NGC label,  only way to get ANA label was to submit coin at the show for grading.  2 pf70 have sold on eBay for $500 already. I don't see the $2500 price tag.

it is clear as day on this listing? Mirkkanen, not a chance I'll buy this.  I can buy some good gold for that price tag.  I won't be the sucker for that thing. I don't care if the label is gold. lol. http://www.ebay.com/itm/2017-China-Denver-ANA-Money-Show-Panda-1-oz-Silver-Medal-NGC-PF70-UC-SKU49245/132320353292?_trkparms=aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.SEED%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D47043%26meid%3De8a85ab53e6b4e889df89efc29b338f6%26pid%3D100675%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D15%26sd%3D132320353292&_trksid=p2481888.c100675.m4236&_trkparms=pageci%253A219a0f92-9728-11e7-8295-74dbd1809d16%257Cparentrq%253A726ef3bd15e0a9c510d6e895fffe57d6%257Ciid%253A1

Offline KeepOnTrying!

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Re: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money
« Reply #159 on: September 11, 2017, 05:24:59 PM »
Whale fishing obviously!

As shenanigans from MCM keep on mounting you can't help but begin to reach certain conclusions about the company's modus operandus!

If they can land one or two whales that could cover any potential loss they may encounter with this series. Or it could cover their cost of acquisition; who knows!
KeepOnTrying and Never Give Up!
That lion is also after you!

Offline pandamonium

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Re: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money
« Reply #160 on: September 11, 2017, 06:55:58 PM »
I have seen some MCM ebay auctions list at low starting price of 99 cents or close to that.    At auction close they sometimes sell for cheap so MCM takes some set backs too......

Offline PandaCollector

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Re: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money
« Reply #161 on: September 11, 2017, 07:07:25 PM »
I was at the ANA show only 300 were available at the show due to issues with the mint. This would limit the ANA label to 300, currently NGC has graded 79 proof 70 and 97 as proof 69, Sorry don't have PCGS numbers.

I think the 300 only became available on Friday, nearer to the end of the show. I was gone by then and I suppose many other attendees were, too.

Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
China Pricepedia
The Gold & Silver Panda Coin Buyer’s Guide 3
www.pandacollector.com

Offline KeyDate1/2ozPandas

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Re: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money
« Reply #162 on: September 11, 2017, 10:49:14 PM »
They were selling them around 10:30am on Friday.  Dealers were buying 5 pieces each for grading.  Only saw a few collectors buying them.  They had 300 but I left around 1pm and they still had some left and there was no line to buy them.

Offline bonke

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Re: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money
« Reply #163 on: September 12, 2017, 10:22:34 AM »
When I was leaving the ANA coin show in downtown Denver, Arif and I walked by the Modern Coin Mart tables.  I had a perfect opportunity to add one of the silver medals to my collection.  The design was attractive.  The medals were available without waiting in line.  Still, I did not do so.  And I am a medal collector.  I must really be feeling the fatigue of too many show medals.

Mark Bonke

Offline KeepOnTrying!

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Re: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money
« Reply #164 on: September 12, 2017, 10:37:10 AM »
I will say that this is an area in flux right now but hopefully show medal collectors will rediscover the thrill and direction somewhere down the line. Perhaps an interim solution is to just pick up one that makes the most sense to you and pass on those you don't understand.
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Offline collectingcoins

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Re: New Panda Commemorative for the Denver 2017 ANA World's Fair of Money
« Reply #165 on: September 12, 2017, 12:37:30 PM »
When I was leaving the ANA coin show in downtown Denver, Arif and I walked by the Modern Coin Mart tables.  I had a perfect opportunity to add one of the silver medals to my collection.  The design was attractive.  The medals were available without waiting in line.  Still, I did not do so.  And I am a medal collector.  I must really be feeling the fatigue of too many show medals.

Mark Bonke

Interesting perspective Mark.  I'm not sure what the reasoning was behind producing the silver piece with a 5000 mintage, in light of all the variations that were coming out at the same time. I know, we've spoken about this Ad Nauseam. I have an email into modern coin mart to ask if that price of $2,500.00 is correct.  Maybe it is a mistake, and they really are not hoping for some sucker-whale to come by and buy this.  I would feel bad for that person who felt motivated to buy this PF70 for this price, when there are so many more thousands to be minted.  Thanks for the info everyone.