Author Topic: Birds over Junk with wrong reverse (no guy)  (Read 3546 times)

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Offline Natas

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Birds over Junk with wrong reverse (no guy)
« on: July 16, 2015, 08:07:01 AM »
Sorry for my ignorance, I have been goggling for an hour and still haven't found this coin.

I'm pretty sure its a fake, my layman's opinion is the boarder is too thick,  but still bothers me that I can't find that either.

it's about 23 grams (my accurate scale stops at 20)

it's about 4 cm across 3mm thick

it's not magnetic (but don't have a slide)

Thanks for the help!

Offline TomG

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Re: Birds over Junk with wrong reverse (no guy)
« Reply #1 on: July 16, 2015, 09:50:41 AM »
Hello Natas,

This looks like a 1963 thirty year commemorative medal / token for the Sun Yat-Sen yuan reverse with the birds and sunrise reverse normally referenced by the 1932 mint date. The Sun Yat-Sen yuan was marked 21 year anniversary after the 1911 founding, but actually minted in 1933 before being withdrawn and replaced without the seagulls, three principles, and sunrise, a new beginning. The coin recalls an early Y-345 coin design for a struggling young democracy. Because of resemblance to wartime Japan symbolism, it was removed from circulation.

In 1933, China was in a period of transitional crises: end to imperial colonialism, foreign invasions, government power struggles and worldwide economic depression. 1963 was a comparatively calm year for Taiwan / Republic of China: cold wars, invasion threats from the mainland / Peoples Republic of China but improved prosperity.  

Offline Natas

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Re: Birds over Junk with wrong reverse (no guy)
« Reply #2 on: July 16, 2015, 12:17:21 PM »
thank you so much!  at least a clue.  but Google doesn't seem to have any pictures of any the same as mine, I searched for different combinations of what you said it was.. still nothing. Is that a good thing?

Any link with info would be appreciated. something with size weight etc to compare to. Of course I'd like to know if it's valuable for more than the silver content.




Hello Natas,

This looks like a 1963 thirty year commemorative medal / token for the Sun Yat-Sen yuan reverse with the birds and sunrise reverse normally referenced by the 1932 mint date. The Sun Yat-Sen yuan was marked 21 year anniversary after the 1911 founding, but actually minted in 1933 before being withdrawn and replaced without the seagulls, three principles, and sunrise, a new beginning. The coin recalls an early Y-345 coin design for a struggling young democracy. Because of resemblance to wartime Japan symbolism, it was removed from circulation.

In 1933, China was in a period of transitional crises: end to imperial colonialism, foreign invasions, government power struggles and worldwide economic depression. 1963 was a comparatively calm year for Taiwan / Republic of China: cold wars, invasion threats from the mainland / Peoples Republic of China but improved prosperity. 

Offline TomG

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Re: Birds over Junk with wrong reverse (no guy)
« Reply #3 on: July 16, 2015, 01:14:22 PM »
Hello Natas,

Pictures are helpful but sometimes a text search is necessary because specific items, such as in auctions, are not always accompanied by pictures.  Here is what you are after:

Search terms "1963 china junk commemorative"

Bronze medal version: lot 873 (page 14, auctioned with nine other items, estimate $400-500)       Medals 紀念章: Central   Mint   Commemorative Bronze  Medal  1963, Obv birds  over  junk  design from Sun Yat-Sen Dollar, Rev seal script text (L&M 1004)...
http://www.baldwin.co.uk/media/cms/auction-archive/auction-hkca49/Hong%20Kong%20Coin%20Auction%2049%20-%20Part%203%20-%20Coins%20and%20Medals.pdf

Silver medal version: lot 905   (page 17) Central Mint 中央造幣廠:   Silver  Medal,  1  March 1963, 開鑄三十週年紀念 30th Anniversary of Commencement of Minting, Rev birds over junk, 27g (L&M 1004). Good extremely fine. Estimate: US$150-200
http://www.baldwin.co.uk/media/cms/auction-archive/auction-hkca46/HKCA46%20Part%203%20%28Coins%29.pdf

The 23 gram medal weight estimate, assuming the same approximate volume gives (23g/your medal volume)* (SpG of 90:10 silver-copper alloy)/(27g/silver medal volume) = 23g(10.33 SpG)/27g = 8.80, the density of pure nickel.

This probably means the medal is a replica of the Central Mint commemorative,

For more detail on specific gravity measurement see:
http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=11456.0

Offline TomG

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Re: Birds over Junk with no Sun Yat-Sen Portrait
« Reply #4 on: July 16, 2015, 02:30:48 PM »
By the way, there are three 1932 Sun Yat-Sen Junk dollars being auctioned today on a certain popular auction site. One of them fits the criteria for a replica but is represented and guaranteed as genuine. See if you can detect which one(s) are genuine or imitations.

The quiz answer clues are here:
http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=11519.0
http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=1259.0

Although it is fair to ask why misrepresented replicas are allowed on auction web sites, a vendor background research hints that at least one vendor pursued legal relief in 2008 and is currently given wide berth by the web site's security teams. Using the whois web site domain tools, one can conclude that this same auction vendor grades and slabs auction coins using a grading service company that he runs. Some report that competitor slabbed coins are occasionally transferred into his controlled grading service holders with exaggerated condition grades.

This web site reviews reliability of grading services:
http://www.allcertifiedcoins.com/coins_slabcompanies.html

Knowing the weight, diameter and thickness of a coin is a necessary and best practice. Grading service slabs normally only guarantee authenticity to the original submitter.  It is out of the graders' control once it leaves their offices. This is also a good rationale for carefully breaking out coins to check weight, dimensions, specific gravity and if necessary composition. Alternatively, competing grading services can and do perform these "cross-over" services.



Offline TomG

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Central Mint 中央造幣廠:  Bronze Medal, 1 March 1963, 開鑄三十週年紀念 30th Anniversary of Minting Commencement, Rev birds over junk (L&M 1004)
There is a slight alignment rotation between the obverse and reverse faces.

Offline SANDAC

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Re: Birds over Junk with wrong reverse (no guy)
« Reply #6 on: July 19, 2015, 06:28:43 PM »
A better resolution pictures of NGC 3641785-006 can be find here: http://numismaclub.com/unt/89439-1963_ngc_ms63_china_central_medal_lm___1004_brass_birds_over_junk_dollar_rev.html

Putting the reverse side-by-side and extending the frame outline toward the "Central Mint" legend, it is easy to see the brass reverse is different than Natas' reverse.

Offline Chinasmith

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Re: Birds over Junk with wrong reverse (no guy)
« Reply #7 on: September 26, 2016, 03:09:51 AM »
This medal was made for the 30th anniversary of the founding of the Central Mint at Shanghai. The three birds over junk dollar was the first coin made at the newly opened mint. By 1963 the Central Mint had been moved to Taiwan, where these medals were made for the anniversary. I have seen several varieties -- silver, brass, gilt -- some may have been made at the mint in Taiwan, but I think others were privately made.