Author Topic: China Coin and/or Banknote Exchanges  (Read 23377 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline ninteno

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 28
  • Karma: 3
Re: China Coin and/or Banknote Exchanges
« Reply #45 on: August 11, 2015, 03:58:19 AM »
to come back to the 2010 panda.
The RMB450 market price is a dealer buyback price
and retail price is additionally 10-30% premium?
why are people buying the fund that is x3 to x4 ?
is it only gambling or there are not much coins available on the market
for my understanding it is easier to buy the fund but the risk is hugh to get burned

Offline pandamonium

  • Supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1994
  • Karma: 23
Re: China Coin and/or Banknote Exchanges
« Reply #46 on: August 11, 2015, 08:52:16 AM »
I disagree.   Bullion is seeing a world wide shortage.   Prices must rise.   When that happens then the Exchanges will look like a top investment.   In time the Yuan will rise as China owns the gold and the West owns derivatives, debt.   These low manipulated prices cannot last forever.   I give credit to the Coin Exchanges in China for buying and holding before the price increase.   The Exchanges could fall apart but not in the short run.......

Offline poconopenn

  • Supporter
  • Trade Count: (+7)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2564
  • Karma: 220
Re: China Coin and/or Banknote Exchanges
« Reply #47 on: August 11, 2015, 11:43:12 PM »
Poconopenn,

Can you tell us more about the circumstances in which the banknote was withdrawn from a fund? I have been told several times that when banknotes are submitted to a fund in bundles, as required, the bundles are then broken apart and the notes examined for quality control purposes. So if a person withdraws banknotes later they will not receive bundles, which is the way that most recent banknotes are traded. It's also a pretty raw deal for the submitter if his notes are rejected by qc because he will get his notes back in a form that is hard to sell, or must be sold at a discount. There is a similar issue with coins. This is one of the disincentives to breaking apart a fund.

Thanks very much!

Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
China Pricepedia
www.pandacollector.com

You just hits the most troublesome spot of those Exchange funds. Nanjing Exchange claims all PM coins are inspected by PCGS and only will take coin with grade higher than 68, while for circulated coin, the grade is higher than 65. However, based on the data at PCGS website, the average grade for post-2010 PM coin is 69 and post-2000 circulated coin is 66. Therefore, the quality of the coins stored at Exchange may actually lower than the average. For banknote, the problem is even worst. Exchange claims all banknotes are UNC and have to be higher than 60. The average UNC banknote should be 64.

During past few months, I had tried to find the inspection procedure from Exchange’s website without any success. There is no way for PCGS to inspect every coin/banknote submitted. In general, inspector has to determine the AQL (acceptable quality level) in order to determine the size of sample for each lot to be inspected. For example, for AQL 2.5 (2.5% defect) and lot size of 10,000, the first sample size is 50 and the lot will be rejected if more than 5 defect detected and accepted with 0 defect. If the number is between 0 and 5, additional 50 samples will be examined. The defect number of combined 100 samples should not be higher than 3. For lot size of 2,000, the first sample size is 32. Assuming PCGS follows this standard procedure, the number of coin and banknote being inspected is very small, most likely about 2-2.5 % of the coin/banknote held at Exchange.
 
Some banknote funds are based on single note as unit and some fund actually based on bundle (100 consecutive serial #) as unit. IMO, the bundle submitted for inspection will be counted by machine as part of inspection and perhaps only 2-3 notes will be used to determine the authenticity. After inspection, the notes will be re-bundled to return to the original condition for storage.  It is my understanding that about 30% of banknote will be rejected, due to fake or not being considered as UNC.

The Exchange, IMO, is only for investors/speculators and dealers/distributors and not for collectors. It is gamble to take delivery even when the price at Exchange is lower than the market. The banknote fund mentioned in my previous post is for 2012 note issued by Bank of China, Macau branch, in commemorating the 100th Anniversary of Bank of China. The Exchange price of this note at the time of delivery (mid-July) was about 25% lower than the market value.
 

Offline poconopenn

  • Supporter
  • Trade Count: (+7)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2564
  • Karma: 220
Re: China Coin and/or Banknote Exchanges
« Reply #48 on: August 11, 2015, 11:54:54 PM »
to come back to the 2010 panda.
The RMB450 market price is a dealer buyback price
and retail price is additionally 10-30% premium?
why are people buying the fund that is x3 to x4 ?
is it only gambling or there are not much coins available on the market
for my understanding it is easier to buy the fund but the risk is hugh to get burned


The market price mentioned is retail price from dealer at Shanghai coin market and can be found at jibi.net.

Offline PandaCollector

  • Supporter
  • Trade Count: (+5)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2410
  • Karma: 76
  • Gender: Male
    • Pandacollector.com
Re: China Coin and/or Banknote Exchanges
« Reply #49 on: August 12, 2015, 01:20:07 AM »

The Exchange, IMO, is only for investors/speculators and dealers/distributors and not for collectors. It is gamble to take delivery even when the price at Exchange is lower than the market. The banknote fund mentioned in my previous post is for 2012 note issued by Bank of China, Macau branch, in commemorating the 100th Anniversary of Bank of China. The Exchange price of this note at the time of delivery (mid-July) was about 25% lower than the market value.


The exchange funds are speculative in nature which is part of their current appeal. Rather than directly buying them (which in general is not possible for foreigners) it is imo more useful to know how the funds affect the real world market for coins. I think it will also be well worth it to follow how trading on the current 20 exchanges evolves, including which coins are being looked for and the coins already in funds.

Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
China Pricepedia
www.pandacollector.com


Offline pandamonium

  • Supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1994
  • Karma: 23
Re: China Coin and/or Banknote Exchanges
« Reply #50 on: August 19, 2015, 08:50:40 PM »
New collectors:  The list of gold/silver/cu-ni coins purchased by Nanjing Coin Exchange is on page 3......look at the list and numbers purchased......

Offline ninteno

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 28
  • Karma: 3
Re: China Coin and/or Banknote Exchanges
« Reply #51 on: August 23, 2015, 05:49:16 AM »
can we have a link to jibi.net with shanghai retail prices for 1oz silver pandas ?
i did try to find it but no chance

Offline poconopenn

  • Supporter
  • Trade Count: (+7)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2564
  • Karma: 220
Re: China Coin and/or Banknote Exchanges
« Reply #52 on: August 23, 2015, 12:06:01 PM »
can we have a link to jibi.net with shanghai retail prices for 1oz silver pandas ?
i did try to find it but no chance

Here is the link to all MCC price as 8/23/15. The current retail price for 2010 1 oz. silver panda is RMB400. The price of all silver pandas (including commemorative pandas) is given at the end of the page.

http://bbs.jibi.net/dispbbs.asp?boardid=58&Id=272615
 

Offline ninteno

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 28
  • Karma: 3
Re: China Coin and/or Banknote Exchanges
« Reply #53 on: August 23, 2015, 12:47:56 PM »
thanks a lot, with your link and a translator i found what i was searching for.
is this link always the same for future prices ?

any idea how much % we have to reduce for buybackprices for 1oz silver and the
gold panda sets 1.9oz if dealers buy them back

Offline poconopenn

  • Supporter
  • Trade Count: (+7)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2564
  • Karma: 220
Re: China Coin and/or Banknote Exchanges
« Reply #54 on: August 23, 2015, 04:18:02 PM »
thanks a lot, with your link and a translator i found what i was searching for.
is this link always the same for future prices ?

any idea how much % we have to reduce for buybackprices for 1oz silver and the
gold panda sets 1.9oz if dealers buy them back


This is the link to the home page of daily price listing. The first listing is the latest date.

http://bbs.jibi.net/index.asp?boardid=58

The dealer buying price will be 10-30% lower than the retail price.

Offline Sequoia

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 119
  • Karma: 2
Re: China Coin and/or Banknote Exchanges
« Reply #55 on: September 30, 2015, 10:52:03 AM »
Thanks everyone.
Some very interesting info above.
Best wishes.
Sequoia

Offline poconopenn

  • Supporter
  • Trade Count: (+7)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2564
  • Karma: 220
Re: China Coin and/or Banknote Exchanges
« Reply #56 on: October 20, 2015, 05:23:52 PM »
10/21/2015 will be the 2nd anniversary of the founding of Nanjing Exchange. The number of fund has increased from 7 to 167 and the total trading value has reached RMB700 Billion during the last 12 months with a total membership of 750,000.

Updated chart for total Index.

Offline Sequoia

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 119
  • Karma: 2
Re: China Coin and/or Banknote Exchanges
« Reply #57 on: October 20, 2015, 07:11:05 PM »
That's amazing

Offline poconopenn

  • Supporter
  • Trade Count: (+7)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2564
  • Karma: 220
Re: China Coin and/or Banknote Exchanges
« Reply #58 on: December 11, 2015, 10:06:17 PM »
Nanjing Exchange total index touched 60 weeks low yesterday. Currently, the valuation of 8 MCC funds out of 44 funds are below the physical market price.

Offline poconopenn

  • Supporter
  • Trade Count: (+7)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2564
  • Karma: 220
Re: China Coin and/or Banknote Exchanges
« Reply #59 on: December 11, 2015, 11:04:18 PM »
Correction: Not 60 weeks, It is 20 weeks.