Chinese Coins Forum

Main => General Discussion => Topic started by: pandamonium on July 22, 2013, 11:07:05 PM

Title: COIN VS MEDAL MCC
Post by: pandamonium on July 22, 2013, 11:07:05 PM
Since I got into this market the advice was to buy Chinese coins and not medals.   As this market moves along I do not read too much difference in buying Chinese coins vs medals.   Not too many debates or comments either.  Am I missing something?   It seems medals are still lower price than Yuan sign coins.  I own both.   Are Chinese Coins still the best of the market?  Have medals become more accepted?.............
Title: Re: COIN VS MEDAL MCC
Post by: fwang2450 on July 23, 2013, 03:01:52 PM
It really depends on your purpose for MCC. If you are investing, coins are still a safer bet (even the circulating coins). There is no obvious shift of attitude among the Chinese collectors. But medals are fun to collect and research on, and sometimes you may hit a jackpot. My recent purchases included one silver (or silver plated) medal and two brass medals. I know the brass ones, but the silver one is something to be researched on:
Title: Re: COIN VS MEDAL MCC
Post by: exchange on July 23, 2013, 05:08:29 PM
Since I got into this market the advice was to buy Chinese coins and not medals.   As this market moves along I do not read too much difference in buying Chinese coins vs medals.   Not too many debates or comments either.  Am I missing something?   It seems medals are still lower price than Yuan sign coins.  I own both.   Are Chinese Coins still the best of the market?  Have medals become more accepted?.............

To me as long as the medal is an official product from the PRC, and not privately done i'm ok with it.
Most medals were privately minted. Even though they were minted in one of the major official Chinese mints, it does not mean they were officially released by the PRC.

examples of non official PRC medals: panda medal for the ANA show in philly, Singapore Panda Show Medal, etc...
http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=5891.0
http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=5165.0



exchange
Title: Re: COIN VS MEDAL MCC
Post by: fwang2450 on July 23, 2013, 09:38:09 PM
To me as long as the medal is an official product from the PRC, and not privately done i'm ok with it.
Most medals were privately minted. Even though they were minted in one of the major official Chinese mints, it does not mean they were officially released by the PRC.

examples of non official PRC medals: panda medal for the ANA show in philly, Singapore Panda Show Medal, etc...
http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=5891.0
http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=5165.0

exchange
The problem is that often it is hard to tell which is official, which is semi-official (like those in my post on Feng Yunming), and which is private. Many are borderline cases. Do those brass medals below look official or semi-official or private?
Title: Re: COIN VS MEDAL MCC
Post by: fwang2450 on July 23, 2013, 09:44:06 PM
Few Chinese can resist the privately minted medals below. Their price shot up 900% in two years.
Title: Re: COIN VS MEDAL MCC
Post by: Bearcat on July 23, 2013, 09:54:11 PM
Hey cool, I've got one of the medals pictures..the China Mint Company 1980 in brass. Mine came individually boxed. I've had it many years and don'r remember where it got. I figured it was some kind of gift from a China Mint official Can you provide any more information? Thanks.
Title: Re: COIN VS MEDAL MCC
Post by: fwang2450 on July 23, 2013, 10:11:20 PM
Hey cool, I've got one of the medals pictures..the China Mint Company 1980 in brass. Mine came individually boxed. I've had it many years and don'r remember where it got. I figured it was some kind of gift from a China Mint official Can you provide any more information? Thanks.
These were minted in 1979 by Shanghai mint. The whole set, named "Auspicious Palace Lanterns" from the palace lantern design, consisted of 6 brass medals, depicting the dragon, the phoenix, and some other auspicious animals. The medals with 1980 on the lantern side are extremely difficult to find in China and highly prized. The copper/bronze/brass medal guru in China, Yin Guoqing, mentioned in 2011 that he had never seen one himself. RAREMEDAL had a pair like those shown in my post and sold them recently. Later stikes without "1980", some gold plated, are more common.

You got a treasure in your hand. If your medal is in good condition, you can ask NGC to grade it. NGC does accept these medals.
Title: Re: COIN VS MEDAL MCC
Post by: Russ 736 on July 23, 2013, 10:29:17 PM
Are there any books that you or other forum members would recommend that cover modern Chinese medals. The ones I have looked at seem to concentrate on the very large bronze medals but don't really cover all of the sizes or medals. Thanks for your thoughts on this.

Russ
Title: Re: COIN VS MEDAL MCC
Post by: fwang2450 on July 24, 2013, 01:51:06 AM
Are there any books that you or other forum members would recommend that cover modern Chinese medals. The ones I have looked at seem to concentrate on the very large bronze medals but don't really cover all of the sizes or medals. Thanks for your thoughts on this.

Russ
I am not aware of any books dedicated to all the medals of the PRC. Official medals are covered as part of the official coin catalogs, much like Peter's panda book listing panda medals. In addition, catalogs by private organizations or individuals cover some medals. The brass medals above are listed in the 1987 catalog by Shanghai Numismatic Society covering PRC coins and medals from 1979 to 1984. But many of the semi-official or private medals are not systematically listed anywhere. There are too many of them and the early medals were even less well documented than early coins. There are some blogs that cover specific topics, such as lunar medals from Shanghai or Shenyang Mint. The medal guru Yin Guoqing lists about 1000 medals in his blog: http://blog.sina.com.cn/s/articlelist_1340472803_0_1.html, with background of each of the medals.
Title: Re: COIN VS MEDAL MCC
Post by: Russ 736 on July 24, 2013, 08:04:13 AM
Thank you for the blog site and the insight on the book situation.

Russ
Title: Re: COIN VS MEDAL MCC
Post by: exchange on July 24, 2013, 02:56:44 PM
The problem is that often it is hard to tell which is official, which is semi-official (like those in my post on Feng Yunming), and which is private. Many are borderline cases. Do those brass medals below look official or semi-official or private?

You're absolutely right. It can be quite difficult to differentiate from official and not. Going based on experience and what ever research I could do, these medals seem official. The latch on the box are the same as the latch found on the official box for the 1979 gold medals from the Beijing Scenary set. Below is a picture of the latch from my set.

Now I know the word fakes, copies, duplicates, etc... can come into play, but having its original contents as issued can be a very important clue in determining its origin.


exchange
Title: Re: COIN VS MEDAL MCC
Post by: fwang2450 on July 24, 2013, 05:31:31 PM
These were minted in 1979 by Shanghai mint. The whole set, named "Auspicious Palace Lanterns" from the palace lantern design, consisted of 6 brass medals, depicting the dragon, the phoenix, and some other auspicious animals. The medals with 1980 on the lantern side are extremely difficult to find in China and highly prized. The copper/bronze/brass medal guru in China, Yin Guoqing, mentioned in 2011 that he had never seen one himself. RAREMEDAL had a pair like those shown in my post and sold them recently. Later stikes without "1980", some gold plated, are more common.

You got a treasure in your hand. If your medal is in good condition, you can ask NGC to grade it. NGC does accept these medals.
One correction. The 1979 set has 5, not 6, brass medals in it: double dragon, dragon and phoenix, phoenix alone, cranes and kylin. Web search only turns out the first three. The last two have never been seen, although they are available without 1980 on the lantern side, presumably restrikes: http://shop71089870.taobao.com/?q=%B9%AC%B5%C6&searcy_type=item&s_from=newHeader&source=&ssid=s5-e&search=y&initiative_id=itemz_20130724. Obviously more animals were added later on, such as the lion and the elephant.
Title: Re: COIN VS MEDAL MCC
Post by: pandamonium on July 24, 2013, 09:38:53 PM
The Chinese collectors may still favor coins and not medals.  Yet some medals have gone up 900%.   The attitudes against them 2 yrs ago have faded.  They have low mintages, some great designs and have not been researched as well as coins.  I see a bright future for certain Chinese medals.  Those that have a clue are grabbing the best while they are cheap..........Will we ever see level playing field for medals and coins?...........   
Title: Re: COIN VS MEDAL MCC
Post by: trozau on July 26, 2013, 04:46:23 PM
Medal issue mintages are miniscule compared to coin issue mintages. Medals are less known so they have remained sleepers with great potential (although as mentioned in the above posts, they are beginning to be recognized by more people). Based on very low mintage/rarity, I would venture a WAG that they still have a much higher upward appreciation in the future.  :thumbup1:     
Title: Re: COIN VS MEDAL MCC
Post by: pandamonium on August 02, 2013, 08:44:04 AM
I posted this earlier somewhere.   This medal is rare, 1982 Bank of China.  NGC has graded 5 total.   One PF 68, three 67 and one 64.  A PF 67 came up for sale about 6 months ago and sold quickly for $499.  Mr Gee says 16,000 planned mintage w/ 2 stars but most dealers and collectors cannot find them.   I have seen 3 (maybe 4) of them for sale on ebay in about the last yr.  The comments I receive is that they were probably melted.  Could there be a hoard of them in Germany or Japan?   The 82 Bank of China has not been studied to my knowledge.  Another MCC puzzle.........does anyone have any information on them?.........
Title: Re: COIN VS MEDAL MCC
Post by: bonke on August 02, 2013, 11:57:04 AM
As a medal collector, I own one 67 and one 68.  The 67 was purchased in the coin market in Kowloon.  The 68 was purchased from a Norwegian dealer.  I submitted both to NGC for authentication, grading and encapsulation.  I will not be surprised if many more are sitting around in dealers or collectors closets.  A nice medal, but available with a little persistence.

Mark Bonke
 
Title: Re: COIN VS MEDAL MCC
Post by: fwang2450 on August 02, 2013, 02:14:51 PM
As a medal collector, I own one 67 and one 68.  The 67 was purchased in the coin market in Kowloon.  The 68 was purchased from a Norwegian dealer.  I submitted both to NGC for authentication, grading and encapsulation.  I will not be surprised if many more are sitting around in dealers or collectors closets.  A nice medal, but available with a little persistence.

Mark Bonke
 
Thanks for your input, Mark. It is interesting to note that this medal is scattered all over the world.
Title: Re: COIN VS MEDAL MCC
Post by: pandamonium on August 02, 2013, 05:04:41 PM
Maybe a lot of persistence.  For having a planned mintage of 16,000 it is rarely seen and soon sold.   (The 79 year of Child 35 Y coin is much more common and a mintage of 13,659.)  Another medal rarely seen is the 1979 3 silver medal Beijing (Olympic?) w/ 30,099 mintage.   The early silver medals must be in strong hands or their actual mintages are tiny.  Perhaps they are found at coin markets and not ebay........
Title: Re: COIN VS MEDAL MCC
Post by: bonke on August 02, 2013, 08:00:12 PM
I purchased a 3-coin silver PRC 4th National Games Commemorative medals set at the Hong Kong coin show last summer.  A local dealer was offering it in the original box with the COA.  The medals did not grade well with Volleyball NGC PF67UC, Skating NGC PF66UC and Gymnastics NGC PF67UC.  If I get the chance, I will buy another set and try for higher grades.  Again, the mintage is shown to be very high and they should be readily available.  Mark Bonke
Title: Re: COIN VS MEDAL MCC
Post by: fwang2450 on August 02, 2013, 08:49:34 PM
I purchased a 3-coin silver PRC 4th National Games Commemorative medals set at the Hong Kong coin show last summer.  A local dealer was offering it in the original box with the COA.  The medals did not grade well with Volleyball NGC PF67UC, Skating NGC PF66UC and Gymnastics NGC PF67UC.  If I get the chance, I will buy another set and try for higher grades.  Again, the mintage is shown to be very high and they should be readily available.  Mark Bonke
Mark, for early medals, high mintage =/= readily available. Some of the medals I listed in my Feng Yunming post had 3000-5000 mintage. But how often have they surfaced on the market? I know one eBay sale of the 12 piece set of the Exhibition of Archaeological Finds in Hong Kong (mintage 3000), and one sale of the 70th Anniversary of the Xinhai Revolution (mintage 15000), which I bought. Probably here and there you may run into one or another at shows or dealerships, but they are far from readily available.
Title: Re: COIN VS MEDAL MCC
Post by: pandamonium on August 02, 2013, 09:28:16 PM
A dealer emailed me as he finally bought the 1979 3 coin 4th National Games silver medals......He was looking for over a year and purchased the set off ebay, possibly from Hong Kong.  He sells MCC and has many contacts in the US and China.  It was the first full set he could find.  I emailed several dealers in the US and China asking about the availability of the 1980 Bank of China medal.  They all stated it was a very rare medal to find.  My theory is that the early year coins are much more plentiful than the early year medals.   It seems the early year medals were more likely to be melted then the coins, no matter what the mintage was.  That is my conclusion.  However there could be a stash of them in Germany/Europe, Australia, Japan or elsewhere.  You know a heck of alot more about MCC then me and you get around the globe in search of them.  I think the early year medals are very rare due to melt, abuse or not being minted.  They maybe the best bang for the buck.............
Title: Re: COIN VS MEDAL MCC
Post by: bonke on August 02, 2013, 09:43:15 PM
Obviously, I do not know what is readily available.  

As a small-time collector, I am a dreamer.  I hope new items are hiding in someone's closet, basement, safe, desk drawer or display case.  This dream, this hope, keeps me looking for something new for my collection.  When I finally discover something for my collection, I assume that if I have found it, it is probably readily available to everyone else.  

Mark Bonke
Title: Re: COIN VS MEDAL MCC
Post by: fwang2450 on August 02, 2013, 11:25:49 PM
Mark, I agree that these medals are somewhere, in somebody's drawer or closet or shoebox or basement. But they may not come to the surface anymore. Unlike coins, some of these medals were not sold. I doubt very much whether the Bank of China medal was ever sold. More likely they were gifts given away and so the recipient did not even think much about them, like Bearcat who stashed his extremely rare Palace Lantern brass medal somewhere, which was a gift from China Mint. He might not have thought much of it before seeing my post. Some of such medals might have been lost forever because people did not care for them. It is always a small miracle to dig one out from here and there, like what you have been doing.
Title: Re: COIN VS MEDAL MCC
Post by: bonke on August 02, 2013, 11:50:05 PM
I agree.  Over the past several years, I have read many posts from participants who carefully protect their identities and their interest in modern Chinese coins and medals.  I use the opposite approach.  I tell people about my hobby.  At times, this has led them to tell me about some item which they own and to ask me for information.  Then, I am forced to research the item.  Often, I can find little or nothing about an item and its value.  If they wish to sell, I try to determine a price which will be fair to them and fair to me.  It is always either too high or too low.  Over time, I find out whether it was truly a hidden treasure or a lemon disguised as a coin or medal.  I own many items which remain a mystery to me.  I own other items for which I paid a high price in a strong market and which now have little or no value.  The search is enjoyable.  The results are always surprising. 

To find the hidden treasures, the owner must know we are looking.

Mark Bonke
Title: Re: COIN VS MEDAL MCC
Post by: fwang2450 on August 03, 2013, 12:59:04 AM
Mark, it would great if some of your mysteries could be shared. I can post pictures to Chinese sites to seek help identifying them.
Title: Re: COIN VS MEDAL MCC
Post by: pandamonium on August 03, 2013, 09:08:16 AM
Mark, can you go out on a limb and post photos here on CCF?...........
Title: Re: COIN VS MEDAL MCC
Post by: PandaOrLunar on August 03, 2013, 07:23:55 PM
NGC Census

There must be a happy collector(s) on the two gold 70.
Title: Re: COIN VS MEDAL MCC
Post by: pandamonium on August 25, 2013, 10:13:37 AM
Recent sales:  1982 Bank of China PF 67 (second highest grade) sold for $424.09  ebay 321187895192     16,000 planned mintage but rarely available and most dealers say it is a very rare silver medal.  First Bank medal?     1979 Volleyball PF 69 (only 69?) sold for $465 ebay 321187953094   30,125 planned mintage buy offered on ebay once a year.   The Gymnastic PF 67 sold for $166.99 and the Figure skater sold for $114 same seller for all 3.  About $746 for all 3 in the set.   The 1979 set is still reasonable as it is first year of MCC.   The 1982 Bank of China may be a sleeper for now............
Title: Re: COIN VS MEDAL MCC
Post by: davidt3251 on August 25, 2013, 02:21:10 PM
Quite a few medals sold last night by same seller, these have very few graded:


1990 China Silver Special Admin Region Hong Kong Aerial View Medal NGC PF68UC, Mintage 5000, $142.49

1994 China Silver 1oz Economic Zones Deng XiaoPing Standing Medal NGC PF68UC, $260

1994 China Silver 1oz Economic Zones Deng XiaoPing Bust Medal NGC PF69UC, $360
Title: Re: COIN VS MEDAL MCC
Post by: pandamonium on August 26, 2013, 08:57:41 AM
Some of the silver medals sold I have not seen.  The strangest of the bunch is the two 1994 PF 69 Door God colored silver medals that sold for about $300 both.  PCGS graded them and they say China peoples republic.  Are they China mint product?  VIP medal? Would PCGS grade a private mint product?  Ebay 221269910631  and   221269911449.  Did they color medals/coins in 94?  The silver panda color proofs were in 1997 and struck by China mint but colored by Swiss (if I remember correctly).  Another forum member could not find them in Huaong Ruiyong's list or in another Chinese publication.  Does anyone have any information on them?  The seller had some other graded medals that I did not know existed.....
Title: Re: COIN VS MEDAL MCC
Post by: pandamonium on January 24, 2016, 12:37:42 PM
Mark, for early medals, high mintage =/= readily available. Some of the medals I listed in my Feng Yunming post had 3000-5000 mintage. But how often have they surfaced on the market? I know one eBay sale of the 12 piece set of the Exhibition of Archaeological Finds in Hong Kong (mintage 3000), and one sale of the 70th Anniversary of the Xinhai Revolution (mintage 15000), which I bought. Probably here and there you may run into one or another at shows or dealerships, but they are far from readily available.



I was told that the Chinese consider Feng semi official medals as private mint so most sets were melted or abused.  They are low quality anyhow.     I was also told that his 1979 Chinese Painting sets were seen maybe 4 times a year in the last 5 years.  His 1980 Navigation and 2 silver 1981 Lu Xun sets were seen on the market maybe 2 a year in the last 5 years.    Here is a recent ebay sale 111877670933.   Is this the same strike as the silver Archaeological set?   Is it real Feng?.....
Title: Re: COIN VS MEDAL MCC
Post by: pandamonium on January 24, 2016, 12:48:59 PM
Quite a few medals sold last night by same seller, these have very few graded:


1990 China Silver Special Admin Region Hong Kong Aerial View Medal NGC PF68UC, Mintage 5000, $142.49

1994 China Silver 1oz Economic Zones Deng XiaoPing Standing Medal NGC PF68UC, $260

1994 China Silver 1oz Economic Zones Deng XiaoPing Bust Medal NGC PF69UC, $360




The (1990) Special Admin Region  HK Bay View & HK Ariel View are the same as the Hong Kong Scenery  Flag & Emblem.  NGC will fix the label error.    Last time i checked NGC has 5 sets and 2 singles for both titles or labels.    NGC 389649-006          NGC 2779056-013      The largest dealer in China says he has seen MAYBE 10 sets in the last 20 yrs.    Mr Ge 5,000 mint.    Unknown and undiscovered rare 2 silver medal set. ............i was also told these sets are extremely hard to find in Asia and when found they do are not for sale.....Any information?.....
Title: Re: COIN VS MEDAL MCC
Post by: NBM on January 26, 2016, 06:11:37 AM


I was told that the Chinese consider Feng semi official medals as private mint so most sets were melted or abused.  They are low quality anyhow.     I was also told that his 1979 Chinese Painting sets were seen maybe 4 times a year in the last 5 years.  His 1980 Navigation and 2 silver 1981 Lu Xun sets were seen on the market maybe 2 a year in the last 5 years.    Here is a recent ebay sale 111877670933.   Is this the same strike as the silver Archaeological set?   Is it real Feng?.....

How many times has this been sold? http://www.ebay.com/itm/111884830429
Title: Re: COIN VS MEDAL MCC
Post by: pandamonium on January 26, 2016, 07:30:40 AM
Seller said the buyer could not pay in time so he relisted it.   He upped the price so did he get more interest?...    Here is another aluminum set w/ Feng like design but different reverse...Ebay 181918862581.....   A member said this set could be given to visitors of the 1982 Canada-China Exhibition but no one knows for sure.   There are collectors/dealers in China researching the aluminum sets......
Title: Re: COIN VS MEDAL MCC
Post by: pandamonium on January 28, 2016, 10:39:37 AM


I was told that the Chinese consider Feng semi official medals as private mint so most sets were melted or abused.  They are low quality anyhow.     I was also told that his 1979 Chinese Painting sets were seen maybe 4 times a year in the last 5 years.  His 1980 Navigation and 2 silver 1981 Lu Xun sets were seen on the market maybe 2 a year in the last 5 years.    Here is a recent ebay sale 111877670933.   Is this the same strike as the silver Archaeological set?   Is it real Feng?.....



The aluminum Archaeological set ebay 111884830429 w/ similar strike to Feng's silver Archaeological set  SOLD.   Congrats to the buyer....curious to see what the Chinese dealers/collectors research information is for both aluminum sets mentioned above......Lots of questions, few answers.....
Title: Re: COIN VS MEDAL MCC
Post by: pandamonium on November 22, 2017, 09:10:41 AM
Ebay seller has some Feng archaeological medals.    Photos look like brass but i only know of silver.     2 sold for about $100 each.    2 Archaeological 12 pc sets sold on ebay 6 months ago? for about $1,000 and $1,100 so $100 each seems reasonable.
Ebay 382290068409      152795989912       2 medals sold and 3 listed.     Have no clue how many he has.    Ebay photos of 2 of his medals....
Title: Re: COIN VS MEDAL MCC
Post by: bonke on November 22, 2017, 11:15:51 AM
Thanks for the pictures of the archaeological medals.  They do appear to be brass.  They are certainly in poor condition.  Although I want to purchase a set of archaeological silver medals, I have no interest in these brass medals. In the past, several collectors and coin dealers have told me to avoid any coins or medals which make me "uncomfortable" as to authenticity or condition.  These brass medals make me "uncomfortable."

Mark Bonke
Title: Re: COIN VS MEDAL MCC
Post by: fwang2450 on November 22, 2017, 12:11:24 PM
This is a six piece set. I have never seen any silver version of this set. Mine is gilt, too.
Title: Re: COIN VS MEDAL MCC
Post by: fwang2450 on November 22, 2017, 12:27:09 PM
Here are some pictures of the whole set, from the seller. It looks like some tourist souvenir.
Title: Re: COIN VS MEDAL MCC
Post by: pandamonium on November 22, 2017, 12:45:24 PM
Thanks for the post.   Now i know what they are......
Title: Re: COIN VS MEDAL MCC
Post by: fwang2450 on November 22, 2017, 12:51:17 PM
They are certainly in poor condition. 
Mark Bonke
Unfortunately they are always found in not-so-good condition. Mine are somewhat better. The medals were not placed in capsules, which leaves them exposed to all kinds of abuse, environmental or human.