Chinese Coins Forum

Features => Modern Chinese Coins => Chinese Panda Coins => Topic started by: Pandaguy on August 15, 2010, 05:14:41 PM

Title: Rewrapped Pandas
Post by: Pandaguy on August 15, 2010, 05:14:41 PM
ONCE AGAIN, This popular and supposedly "reputable" seller from China is selling rewrapped in WRONG mint wrapper, high-priced Pandas. He should know better!!!!!.  >:(

1984 1oz silver panda - eBay (item 250677904084 end time Aug-08-10 07:04:14 PDT)  

Title: Re: Rewrapped Pandas
Post by: pecus on August 15, 2010, 07:02:42 PM
Could you identify what aspect of the pouch seems inauthentic?
Title: Re: Rewrapped Pandas
Post by: Pandaguy on August 15, 2010, 07:22:47 PM
This Panda was REWRAPPED in Shenyang mint vinyl wrapper. Maybe someone can copy and paste a photo in the Forum for all to see before it disappears from ebay. 1983-1985 silver Panda Proofs were manufactured only at Shanghai Mint and are in Shanghai Mint vinyl pouches which have a different identifying pattern on the outside edges of the wrapper. This rewrapping business can be an indication that the coin was previously submitted for grading and received a low grade. The owner/dealer then decided it would be more profitable to REWRAP and sell as untouched "raw" sealed coin. In my opinion, this is a very unscrupulous and unethical business practice. Some sellers may be unknowingly selling these rewrapped coins, however, some others know exactly what they are doing in order to turn a buck! Moral of the story--buyer beware and educated in all facets!!!!
Title: Re: Rewrapped Pandas
Post by: PandaCollector on August 15, 2010, 07:55:15 PM
Here is a photo of a 1983 silver Panda in the correct plastic pouch. I have also saved a full copy of the eBay page for reference if it is needed.

(http://www.pandacollector.com/1983_silver_pouch.jpg)

Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
http://www.pandacollector.com/
Title: Re: Rewrapped Pandas
Post by: Pandaguy on August 15, 2010, 07:58:40 PM
RIGHT-ON Peter.  :thumbup: Thank you for posting photo.
Title: Re: Rewrapped Pandas
Post by: PandaOrLunar on August 15, 2010, 08:18:20 PM
Have you contacted this "reputable" seller for an explanation?

PandaOrLunar
Title: Re: Rewrapped Pandas
Post by: badon on August 15, 2010, 09:11:43 PM
I have always had good dealings with this seller, since 2004 or 2005. I have defended this seller in the past. The extra few dollars that can be earned from faking the wrapping isn't worth the damage it can do to overall business. I have heard rumors of this happening before, but I hadn't seen it myself, so I ignored it.
Title: Re: Rewrapped Pandas
Post by: Pandaguy on August 15, 2010, 09:18:47 PM
Well, the proof if definitely here for all to see. As I mentioned before, this is not the first time I have noticed this seller dealing in rewrapped coins. I just got fed up with buyers being unknowingly deceived. My only intention is to educate others so that they do not get burned. By the way, I have seen other big-name Panda sellers doing the rewrap gig.  >:(
Title: Re: Rewrapped Pandas
Post by: badon on August 15, 2010, 09:26:10 PM
I have heard other reputable sellers say they've WATCHED some of these sellers forging the fake packaging. I just took it with a grain of salt in case it was just competition-bashing...but, it looks like it's true. I'm glad I don't pay extra for original packaging anymore. I used to, and I got burned a few times, but I'm not sure whether the seller was even aware or not, since I wasn't myself. Either way, all my coins have been sent to NGC, so the packaging is trash anyway as far as I'm concerned. How could you even tell the difference if it was done correctly?

That leads to another good question - this seller should know what the correct packaging is - so did he use the wrong packaging on purpose for some reason?
Title: Re: Rewrapped Pandas
Post by: Pandaguy on August 15, 2010, 10:38:29 PM
I was of the opinion that 2006 and newer 1 ounce silver Pandas were only encapsulated and did NOT have the outside vinyl pouch. This 2009 Panda photo is from the same seller. I happened to save it from an auction several months ago. Does he have a sealing machine or what??? Either some of these 2009s were double-sealed or this guy has a sealing machine. Go figure.....


 
Title: Re: Rewrapped Pandas
Post by: pecus on August 15, 2010, 10:41:22 PM
Great work Pandaguy.  Distrubing story, since more than a few of us have trusted this dealer for some time.  It would be great to get his response to your story.                                                                 
Title: Re: Rewrapped Pandas
Post by: larrydreher on August 16, 2010, 04:34:22 PM
I was of the opinion that 2006 and newer 1 ounce silver Pandas were only encapsulated and did NOT have the outside vinyl pouch. This 2009 Panda photo is from the same seller. I happened to save it from an auction several months ago. Does he have a sealing machine or what??? Either some of these 2009s were double-sealed or this guy has a sealing machine. Go figure.....

I don't know about this particular auction but on some others the seller has clearly stated that the pandas were resealed for buyer convience.  Some buyers like the newer panda coins to be in sheets to match the older ones.
Title: Re: Rewrapped Pandas
Post by: Pandaguy on August 16, 2010, 05:25:53 PM
The possibility that he may have gotten hold of a sealing machine that exactly duplicates the original mint seal(s), is downright scary. By the way, I have NEVER seen a statement in any auction indicating "that the pandas were resealed for buyer convenience". If that statement has appeared, the seller really means, "that they were sealed in order to deceive the buyer by misrepresenting the coins as original, raw, mint-sealed"! No matter what, deception (resealing) is totally unethical, cheating, and stealing; perpetrated by the seller unto the unknowing and trusting buyer! I believe that most others would agree. This seller deserves absolutely no defense for this deed.  :cursing:
Title: Re: Rewrapped Pandas
Post by: badon on August 16, 2010, 05:49:16 PM
I think a lot of people liked this seller and are just trying to make sense of this disappointment.
Title: Re: Rewrapped Pandas
Post by: elaine 1970 on August 17, 2010, 12:32:29 AM
yes.  i like the chinese silver panda being double sealed.  that is the way it should be.  capsule it and sealed it.  this is to prevent dealers cheating.
Title: Re: Rewrapped Pandas
Post by: larrydreher on August 17, 2010, 10:41:43 AM
Please look at this auction:

http://cgi.ebay.com/sheet-10-coins-2007-1oz-panda-silver-coin-/370419672950?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0 (http://cgi.ebay.com/sheet-10-coins-2007-1oz-panda-silver-coin-/370419672950?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0)

He clearly states:

"Please note that there's no double sealed panda in 10pcs sheet after 2006.  This is aftermarcket sealed just for the convenience of shipment and protection to the coin.  All the coins sealed is in mint condition"

I'm not making excuses for anybody. Make your own judgement if you think this is "dishonst".
Title: Re: Rewrapped Pandas
Post by: larrydreher on August 17, 2010, 11:13:21 AM
Ome more thing...  A vast majority of his ebay listings clearly state that he uses stock photos.  I can understand why people would not want to buy under those circumstances but he is up front about it.

"All the pictures are taken ourselves. For most coins we sell, we have more than one. After we sold one coin, we relist the same ebay listing and use the same/old pictures. So you may not receive the same coin as in the picture, however the coin you’ll receive will be in the same condition or even better in condition as the coin in the picture. The coa No or the coin No will be randomly selected if it is not declared clearly in the description."

Disclosure:  I have purchased hundreds if not thousands of coins from this guy and have also sold him hundreds of coins.  I've never had an issue with him.  In the event I didn't like a coin he was always willing to take it back without question. 
Title: Re: Rewrapped Pandas
Post by: pecus on August 17, 2010, 11:22:38 AM
I, too, have purchased many coins from this dealer over the past four years and have never had a bad experience.  I think the fact that he discloses these practices does protect him from the charge that he is "cheating."  However, one complication is that if a buyer resells these coins, later buyers might not be aware of an important bit of information. 

I have contacted the seller and asked him to address this issue in this forum.

Pecus
Title: Re: Rewrapped Pandas
Post by: Pandaguy on August 17, 2010, 11:52:14 AM
Ome more thing...  A vast majority of his ebay listings clearly state that he uses stock photos.  I can understand why people would not want to buy under those circumstances but he is up front about it.

"All the pictures are taken ourselves. For most coins we sell, we have more than one. After we sold one coin, we relist the same ebay listing and use the same/old pictures. So you may not receive the same coin as in the picture, however the coin you’ll receive will be in the same condition or even better in condition as the coin in the picture. The coa No or the coin No will be randomly selected if it is not declared clearly in the description."

Disclosure:  I have purchased hundreds if not thousands of coins from this guy and have also sold him hundreds of coins.  I've never had an issue with him.  In the event I didn't like a coin he was always willing to take it back without question. 


Thank you for the link. And yes, in my opinion, this remains an unethical and deceptive practice. Thank you for the link on the "sealed" 2006. This only proves that this seller has a sealing machine (or some other procedure) that produces a mint seal identical to Shanghai mint (and maybe other mint seals too). Therefore, he is capable of rewrapping any coin (like his 1984 which started this thread) without disclosing the true facts. I understand that he will accept returns and many people have had good experiences, however, this is no salvation to an uninformed buyer or new collector that is unfamiliar with mint seals and who spent a lot of cash on buying what he thought was a truly untouched mint-sealed coin. Unfortuntunately, we have entered a new era of deception being knowingly perpetrated by this seller and those other sellers(both aware and unaware) down the line. It is called seal-counterfeiting. How sad!!  :(

Can somebody create a poll to take the pulse of the members regarding their opinion whether resealing and seal-counterfeiting are unethical and deceptive practices; whether disclosed or not disclosed? Thank you.
 
 
Title: Re: Rewrapped Pandas
Post by: saso12 on August 17, 2010, 11:53:38 AM

I also buught from this seller some China coins in past...everthing as described. I also bought sheet 2007 sealed(afthermarkt) and 2009 sealed Panda issue also.

I was aware that coins are NOT mint sealed, but afthermarkt.(and also that is FACT that China mint dd not produce sealed coins afther 2006...)


But I see problem with that 1984 Panda sealing....I saw that ebaylisting befor but OMG I realy did not know that sealing is wrong (If I was attend to buy I would check, recheck and check again if everything is as it should be :) ).

That is realy one big MINUS for seeler. But it can also be that this is stock foto and ppl who buy get ORIGINAL sealed coin......or maybe not.


I will get my China Panda Gold and Silver cataloque soon and I hope I will find there some more infos also about packaking of china coins
Title: Re: Rewrapped Pandas
Post by: badon on August 17, 2010, 11:58:06 AM
Can somebody create a poll to take the pulse of the members regarding their opinion whether resealing and seal-counterfeiting are unethical and deceptive practices; whether disclosed or not disclosed?

If it's phrased that way, I can't see how anyone would vote favorably for resealing. Either way, I don't think anything that is NOT a genuine mint product but is a DUPLICATE of a genuine mint product, should be allowed to survive on the market. It doesn't matter what it is, or how it was made.
Title: Re: Rewrapped Pandas
Post by: pecus on August 17, 2010, 12:07:11 PM
Qwasty has got it right.  I hope this dealer changes his ways (though how will anyone know for sure?).

On the point about sealing machines.  Does anyone know how easy they are to get and does anyone know or suspect that such machines have been in use for some time, unknown to most of us?

Pecus
Title: Re: Rewrapped Pandas
Post by: badon on August 17, 2010, 12:15:09 PM
I know that coins have been getting resealed at least since 2004, but probably much longer than that. The first good resealed coins I've seen were on the market not much later. It's so easy to do this kind of resealing that, for a dealer that makes an extra $15 per coin on hundreds or thousands of coins per year, it would be affordable to commission a custom-made sealing machine. Such a machine, if modified from existing machines, would probably cost a few hundred to as much as $1000 dollars at most, if made in America. It would be even cheaper to make in China, and probably already available for sale, with no need for custom manufacturing.

I'm just doing some guessing, so I could be somewhat inaccurate, but I do have manufacturing experience, and I have dealt with sealing machines too, so I think my guesses are a good starting point.

My solution is to go with graded and authenticated coins, and throw the worthless packaging in the trash.
Title: Re: Rewrapped Pandas
Post by: elaine 1970 on August 17, 2010, 12:19:42 PM
in recent years.  dealers always send coins for slab.  therefore.  it is easier for unsealed coins to do that purpose.  those lower condition coins then sell it back to customers.  now.  if we buy from them for brand new bullion coins.  we are not sure those were never been sent for slab.  and we can not get ms-70 as we can have before.  that is why double sealed is very important.
in u.s. we can buy directly from the u.s. mint.  therefore.  we got all the advantage.
Title: Re: Rewrapped Pandas
Post by: badon on August 17, 2010, 12:24:08 PM
Elaine, they just reseal the coins and sell them back on the market if they don't get a high grade. I've heard it enough times from enough different people that seeing an actual example posted here does not surprise me. That's why I NEVER collect original sealed coins, only high quality slabbed coins. If you collect original double sealed coins, you have THREE problems:

#1 the coin seal is fake
#2 the coin is low quality
#3 the coin might be fake, and you can't see through the seal to be sure

Why bother with crap coins? Just get the high quality, genuine, coins from NGC or PCGS.
Title: Re: Rewrapped Pandas
Post by: pecus on August 17, 2010, 12:42:13 PM
Qwasty:

Do your comments apply to all panda, lunar and unicorn coins, whatever the size, or just to 1 oz pandas?
Title: Re: Rewrapped Pandas
Post by: badon on August 17, 2010, 12:55:08 PM
All of them. The large size coins I think are especially important to only buy authenticated and graded. The reasons are:

#1 Frequently mishandled. If it bumps something, it leaves small, but deep damage that lowers the value a LOT.
#2 Fakes, fakes, fakes. They're everywhere.
#3 Big coins are expensive. One fake, and you lose a lot of money.

Good fakes of unicorns have been showing up lately. Good fakes of pandas have always been around. Lunar coins are also often low grade, so they really need to be graded to be sure you're not overpaying for a dinged up coin. I haven't seen a lot of lunar fakes, but they're out there.

For an example of grade, the difference in value of these two coins is growing rapidly (over $1000 now), but you can barely see the difference in grade:

http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=866.0

You will be shocked to find out that your precious double sealed coins are genuine, and have genuine original seals, but there was a tiny mark on your coin that you couldn't see because of the stupid seal, and you ended up losing $1000!
Title: Re: Rewrapped Pandas
Post by: badon on August 17, 2010, 12:59:56 PM
Here's another grade example. The tiny marks on this 1995 1 oz silver proof panda coin were completely invisible when the coin was in the original packaging, but I believe this coin will sell for less than I paid for it. If I had bought this coin already graded, then I wouldn't have been shocked to find out that there was a mark on it that caused me to lose money:

http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=881.0

Coins that are still in the original mint package are usually there because they have a problem. The best coins get sent in for grading. If you only buy coins with original mint seals, then you are more likely to be buying low quality coins. Plus, if the coin HAS been resealed, then it's guaranteed the coin has a problem, or it would have been sent for grading.
Title: Re: Rewrapped Pandas
Post by: badon on August 17, 2010, 01:16:45 PM
For an example of grade, the difference in value of these two coins is growing rapidly (over $1000 now), but you can barely see the difference in grade:

http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=866.0

You will be shocked to find out that your precious double sealed coins are genuine, and have genuine original seals, but there was a tiny mark on your coin that you couldn't see because of the stupid seal, and you ended up losing $1000!

I should mention the other possibility: You have original sealed coins, but you cut them out and send them for grading. You lost $100 by cutting them out of the seals, but some of your coins came back in such a high grade that you made $2000 by getting them graded! Plus, graded and authenticated coins are MUCH easier to sell because buyers know exactly what they're getting. They don't have to worry if it's fake, or damaged, or some variety they already have.

With sealed coins, they can't know for sure if the coin has been resealed, or if it has damage, so they're slow to buy. If you put a fine, rare coin on eBay in PF69 or PF70 grade, you will have no trouble selling the coin. Everybody wants the best coins for their collection.
Title: Re: Rewrapped Pandas
Post by: xuhong on August 18, 2010, 12:44:26 AM
Hello, everybody, one of my dear customers told me about this issue.  Thank you all for discussing this problem so I can know your complaint.  I kept thinking about the aftermarcket sealed problems.  In China, it is not popular right now to get a coin to be graded, maybe it will be popular in the future.  We trust our own eyes to check the coin.  If the coin is free of hairlines, scratches, white spots (silver coin), black spots (copper coin), we think the coin is in good condition.  We don't quite have special reqirements in sealing.  Toning on silver or gold coins does not matter.  Because toning on silver can be cleaned by silver clean water and the toning on gold can disapear after heated by fire.  It seems that toning does not influence the grading because many coins graded 69 has many toning spots (I don't know if this is ture,  hope anybody can tell me. ) 
It seems a bit impossible to declare in every listing if the coin is original sealed or not, because I may have originally sealed coins but sometimes may not for I sell coins in the real shop at the same time.  To this issue, I can only say that I'll send the original sealed coin if I have, if not, I'll chose the best one which is free of hairlines, tonings and spots.  I'll seek out a solution so buyers can know well about what they are getting. 
Regarding to the aftermarcket sealed which looks like shanghai mint sealed, the truth is they are sealed in Shanghai mint.  My shop locates near the Shanghai mint.  So if needed, I'll take orginal plastic plate packed (30 pcs packed together)coins to Shanghai mint and ask them to get it sealed.  This is easier for shipment than coins in 30 pcs packed plate.  I pay to Shanghai mint for sealing the coin.  I myself have a little sealing machine which can seal a coin like this in the listing http://cgi.ebay.com/1983-8g-gold-coin-pig-/250682042150?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0   (The first picture right edge and the second picture the left edge)   The edges sealed by shenyang mint, shenzhen mint and shanghai ming is unique.  Hope most buyers can know this point.  I don't want to cheat others, this is why I show the whole image of the coin and wrapping. 
If any buyer who do not satisfied with the coin received, the coin can be returned for exchange or full refund.  I pay for the return shipping.  This is my return policy on ebay. 
The last words is I'll try my best to provide the best Chinese coins. 
Wish you all the best.  If you have any suggestions, please mail me @ xuhong88888888@126.com
Title: Re: Rewrapped Pandas
Post by: badon on August 18, 2010, 01:35:38 AM
I don't want to cheat others, this is why I show the whole image of the coin and wrapping.

This is no different from most other criminals who sell fake coins:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=360279896609
Title: Re: Rewrapped Pandas
Post by: elaine 1970 on August 18, 2010, 10:01:26 AM
in the future and at this modern age.  plastic seal will have to add security like those of paper or plastic money.  what you think?.
Title: Re: Rewrapped Pandas
Post by: badon on August 18, 2010, 10:34:12 AM
Yes, PCGS and NGC plastic seals do that.
Title: Re: Rewrapped Pandas
Post by: larrydreher on August 18, 2010, 11:10:42 AM
This is no different from most other criminals who sell fake coins:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=360279896609


Qwasty,

You are entitled to your opinion but these are very strong words and perhaps you should preface them as opinions.  You just inferred this seller is a "criminal" because you disagree with his selling policies.  I was hoping this forum would be a little more helpful and we could build a sense of community due to our common interest in coins.  We can all learn a lot from the chinese coin dealers and I'd like to encourage them to actively participate.  You can choose to not buy from anyone you aren't comfortable with but don't create such animosity that we can't have an open and honest exchange of ideas.

Again *in my opinion* this dealer is honest and ethical. 
Title: Re: Rewrapped Pandas
Post by: badon on August 18, 2010, 11:43:11 AM
I have always liked Xu Hong, and I've been buying and selling with him for many years. That post wasn't meant to be directed at him personally, but to show that criminals use distorted thinking patterns to shift responsibility to the victim and justify the fraud, often by simply showing a picture of a fake item. The logic goes something like this:

Victim: "You sold me a fake coin."
Criminal: "I showed you a picture of it. It's not my fault you couldn't tell it was fake."
Victim: "But, you sold me a fake coin!"
Criminal: "I never said the coin was genuine. It's not my fault you assumed it was genuine."
Victim: "BUT, YOU SOLD ME A FAKE COIN!"
Criminal: "I sold you exactly what was in the picture. It's not my fault you chose to buy a fake."
Victim: "You sold me a fake coin."
Criminal: (silence)

It's very common, and always criminal, and should NEVER be tolerated in the marketplace. There are plenty of completely honest dealers who have to compete with shady criminal ones. Doing business with the shady dealers only serves to drive out the completely honest dealers from the marketplace.

But, once again, I'm speaking very generally. I'm not telling anyone what to do about Xu Hong. As I said before, I've always had good dealings with him. It's up to you to decide for yourself what are acceptable business practices.

My opinion is that every dealer should constantly and carefully think about what they're doing, and how it will affect their business. The temptation to sacrifice a little information disclosure for a few extra dollars is always present, but so are the demands for a dealer's time. The best dealers are too busy to list every detail about their coins, which is why they have to offer a good return policy, which all the good dealers will do, and Xu Hong does. He even pays return shipping!

In all the years I've been dealing with him, I've returned only one coin that I didn't like for personal reasons. He found me another coin I liked better, and he paid the return shipping for the coin I wanted to return. I don't think it's justified to call Xu Hong a bad dealer, but I think the issues raised here can easily be fixed before it becomes a problem. I'm sure he will.
Title: Re: Rewrapped Pandas
Post by: larrydreher on August 18, 2010, 12:19:15 PM
Thanks for the explanation. I'm sorry if I misinterpreted your comments.
Title: Re: Rewrapped Pandas
Post by: PandaCollector on August 18, 2010, 10:26:30 PM
One thing that I think shouldn't be lost in Xu Hong's response is that collectors in different lands have different priorities. It's obvious that the Chinese place a high value on presentation. This is reflected in the beautiful presentation cases that the Chinese Mint makes for its coins. It's also seen in Chinese collector's preference for originally packaged Pandas. North Americans are fixated on the absolute condition of a coin, down to a level beyond normal eyesight, and slabbed, graded coins are a response to this focus. Slabs leave plenty to be desired in aesthetic terms, though. From what I have seen, European collectors like to get unobstructed views of the coins in their collections. They tend to remove coins from pouches. More than North Americans, they also seem to accept coins that have been decorated in the aftermarket with either colors or plating.

Chacun à son goût. Each of these approaches is valid and none is inherently superior to the others, it depends on what you want. From my point of view, the plastic wrappers are interesting because they can be a clue to a coin's Mint of origin. If they have been faked, that will distort the information but I doubt this impacts a large percentage of the Panda population.

Last, I am intrigued that Xu Hong's coins are actually sealed at the Shanghai Mint itself. I never would have guessed that. While obviously not completely original I can imagine some collectors would be attracted to a hybrid Mint sealed coin, even if the sealing is an aftermarket affair. I completely agree that aftermarket sealing has the potential to create all kinds of confusion and mischief, especially in the hands of dishonest or ignorant sellers.

Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
http://www.pandacollector.com/
Title: Re: Rewrapped Pandas
Post by: xuhong on August 19, 2010, 01:33:41 AM
Interesting discussion.   :thumbup: I learned a lot.  Thank you all.   Hope I can know more about Chinese coins. 
Title: Re: Rewrapped Pandas
Post by: PandaCollector on August 19, 2010, 03:10:56 PM
Xu Hong,

This item http://cgi.ebay.com/12oz-gold-panda-/220656789715?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0 (http://cgi.ebay.com/12oz-gold-panda-/220656789715?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0) looks like it is using your photo from http://cgi.ebay.com/1993-12oz-panda-gold-coin-/370418900993?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0 (http://cgi.ebay.com/1993-12oz-panda-gold-coin-/370418900993?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0). eBay will remove it if you contact them.

Best wishes,
Peter Anthony,
www.pandacollector.com
Title: Re: Rewrapped Pandas
Post by: Pandaguy on November 18, 2010, 03:36:42 PM
Xu Hong, ebay ID=hangzhouhuayinshoucangpin, is at it again!!! :cursing:

He has an auction for 1996 Unicorn Proof. Auction #250707154298.
Pictures are below showing wrong wrap. This coin was REWRAPPED in a Shenyang Mint wrapper. These coins were minted ONLY at Shanghai mint.  This is a deceptive selling practice.  :sneaky2:
Title: Re: Rewrapped Pandas
Post by: badon on November 19, 2010, 02:06:00 AM
If there's something important that's not disclosed, it's a mistake. If the seller continues the practice after being alerted to the problem, it is not mistake. Too bad you can't get the truth about these coins from the seller.
Title: Re: Rewrapped Pandas
Post by: dragondollar on November 19, 2010, 08:28:34 AM
Haha I guess I'm a typical european collector then. I usually prefer to buy raw coins, and if they are slabbed I'll often set them free, unless it's from NGC/PCGS and highly graded. I store the coin in padded plastic capsules though. I guess I'd be less inclined to do so if I was collecting modern coins though. I prefer toned, and slightly circulated coins, as you kinda "feel" more the age and history of the coin than if it's a pristine MS that spent the century in a bank vault.
Title: Re: Rewrapped Pandas
Post by: chinaconbuyer on November 20, 2010, 05:06:09 PM
I can understand why most people are upset about this.  It's a common practice in China.  The quality and condition of the coin is more important than the seal.  You shouldn't take the seal seriously.  If you have any doubt, you can ask the seller.  Even dealers in the US often sell coins in plastic seal that are not original. I have bought a lot of those and feel a bit deceived as well.
Title: Re: Rewrapped Pandas
Post by: peng_you on August 25, 2011, 04:59:32 AM
If Badon is correct in his conviction within the importance of having your coins processed by NCS, and this dealer is known to sell resealed coins and more recently certified coins; Would it be a fair assumption to say that any better/rare/backdate stuff he offers are reject coins? I dont want to speculate or anything....
Peng_you
Title: Re: Rewrapped Pandas
Post by: dobedo on August 25, 2011, 07:50:20 AM
If Badon is correct in his conviction within the importance of having your coins processed by NCS, and this dealer is known to sell resealed coins and more recently certified coins; Would it be a fair assumption to say that any better/rare/backdate stuff he offers are reject coins? I dont want to speculate or anything....
Peng_you
If badon is correct, then it is not an assumption but a conclusion follows from that premise to say that...
If we don't speculate, then badon may or may not be incorrect.  Buyers beware, all others speculate :)
Title: Re: Rewrapped Pandas
Post by: comeaux on August 25, 2011, 08:19:02 AM
I can understand why the Chinese collectors want their coins double sealed, I would tend to believe that to them, it substantiates that the coin is pristine in OMP and never been handled. I believe that anyone (regardless of race) wants double sealed Chinese pandas for the same reason . This is the same reason that I would buy a double sealed coin, I am too hoping it is in the OMP so that I know I have a better chance at receiving a coin that will either grade well or maintain a high value as it is in OMP and also be authentic.

Recently with coins appearing on the market that have been ‘resealed” it really has me concerned that coins are being resealed for one main purpose and that is to deceive the buyer, to make him believe he is buying a coin in OMP. I honestly feel that these coins are being resealed because they have not graded well and this is one way for a dealer to recoup his money on a low grade coin.

A Chinese dealer who has recently come under some scrutiny because of this practice has me just slightly concerned. If he conveys to the buyer that the coin has been resealed before selling it then I feel that is a straight-up and honest deal which I have seen him do however there are many instances whereas he has sold resealed coins without acknowledging to buyers that they are resealed, in fact from what I have seen he did not start noting that a coin is resealed until his practice of doing so was questioned. Although there are very reputable members here on CCB who have had great success with him, that may be due to the fact that they also do a lot of business with this particular seller. It is possible that the smaller buyer or newbie may not get the same treatment, this is a possibility.

I did buy from this seller a few of the recently released 2011 Commemorative Pandas as soon as they were minted and feel I got a good deal on these. Then I bought a pair of 1995 Large Twig & Small Twig Pandas for $258, sent them for grading and they both came back MS67. I then bought two more of the identical coins from him for the same price and sent them in for grading in which one came back MS67 & the other “authenticity unverifiable”. I then bought five half ounce 1995 “small dates” and sent them in for grading in which one came back MS69 and the others MS68.

I do realize that these particular 1995 coins do not grade well but I subsequently decided to go back to a place that I have purchased over a hundred sealed pandas with extremely high success, paid the usual slightly higher premium for both the 1995 small & large twig, sent them for grading and finally got two MS69 coins for this year. 

I would have never questioned this seller before but now since the surfacing of this “repackaging” practice or “COINGATE” it does have me curious as to what exactly is going on and if in fact I did receive OMP coins or repackaged coins. In my opinion ANYONE selling a coin that has been repackaged has an obligation to the buyer/public to state clearly in large bold lettering that “THIS COIN HAS BEEN REPACKAGED AND IS NOT IN ITS ORIGINAL MINT SEAL”, in doing so it would be much more honest and ethical as a seller.

I am not here to accuse this seller as a fraud because I know reputable people here who have gotten honest deals from him and he does have very nice items. It is very possible that the coins I did purchase from him were in OMP but I also have a slight bit of doubt now.  In my case, from what I have seen, read and experienced, I will just choose other sellers who have not been known to sell repackaged coins without communicating that to the buyer. 

This has nothing to do with Chinese or American either, it has everything to do with trust regardless of nationality. I have simply chosen to abstain from buying coins where there is a possibility that I may get a resealed coin.     

Once a person has tarnished his reputation, it is hard to get that good reputation back.    
Title: Re: Rewrapped Pandas
Post by: badon on August 25, 2011, 04:30:28 PM
For what it's worth, I don't think this seller has his coins resealed anymore, due to the backlash experienced here. Keep in mind also that the reseal job was done by the mint, so is technically genuine. Your best bet is to ask for "grading quality" coins, regardless of whether it has a seal or not. Alternatively, you can buy coins that are already graded.

For some coins, so many of the best specimens have already been sent for grading that it is becoming difficult to find sealed coins (genuine seals or not) that are good enough to earn a 68 or 69 grade. In those cases, you might be better off just buying a coin that's already been conserved and graded.

Part of the reason this seller deals in graded coins now is because many people correctly place more faith in an NGC grade than they do in a plastic wrapper of unknown authenticity. When buyers are answering the question "which tells you more about a coin?", the NGC grade is almost always chosen instead of the plastic wrapper.

This is why I changed my opinion about supposedly "original" mint packaging versus graded coins. Ever since then, I have bought the nicest graded coins I could get, without factoring in the value of packaging, if it comes with it. I never complain if the accessories are included for free though :)
Title: Re: Rewrapped Pandas
Post by: comeaux on August 25, 2011, 05:42:23 PM
Badon I have always agreed with you about NGC grading verses OMP but I still prefer to buy my own raw coins and get them graded myself.

Except in very few cases such as the one I mentioned earlier I have done extremely well with raw coins in OMP. I do agree that there are some coins (very few) that I will just go ahead and get NGC graded right away instead of taking a chance and have to submit several of the higher value coins to get a 69.

I still believe there are many raw coins left in OMP that are capable of getting high grades. I just recently bought large and small date pandas of 1990, 1991, 1992 & 1993 for excellent prices and out of these 8 coins I got seven MS69’s so at this point there is no reason for me to stray away from my current strategy.

This aside from the fact that about 90% of my pandas are NGC graded, I still plan on keeping the other 10% in their OMP since they are in phenomenal condition and I also have several duplicates of them NGC graded already.

After a second thought and what others have told me about this particular seller referenced above, maybe I assumed too much and jumped to conclusions as he does have a great reputation and the specific coins I referenced actually do not grade well. It’s just that it all seemed timed where my coins from him did not grade well repeatedly and there was some repackaging going on.

I apologize to that seller and other forum members if comments in the post above that I made where out of line. In fact you can just delete the post above as I do feel it was not right to jump to conclusions.
 
I would not want to aid in tarnishing the reputation of a well respected person by everyone on this forum.         
Title: Re: Rewrapped Pandas
Post by: Grip on August 25, 2011, 07:11:18 PM
If badon is correct, then it is not an assumption but a conclusion follows from that premise to say that...
If we don't speculate, then badon may or may not be incorrect.  Buyers beware, all others speculate :)
I have purchased many sealed or maybe "resealed" coins from XU Hong. Every coin has come back from NGC as 68 or 69. Just my humble input...
Title: Re: Rewrapped Pandas
Post by: badon on August 25, 2011, 09:02:15 PM
Don't worry about it. Everyone knows that Xu Hong is a good seller. He made a mistake, and he corrected it. He even got on this forum to talk to us about it, which counts for a lot. He's an even better seller now than he was before, so I think a little pressure for him to do it better has both increased his income, and increased the quality of coins we get from him.

He is influential, and other dealers watch what he does. Make sure you reward him for changing for the better, because other dealers will follow his example. We don't have to forget what happened in the past, but that's only because it shows us how much he has improved as a seller.
Title: Re: Rewrapped Pandas
Post by: exchange on August 25, 2011, 10:08:00 PM
Don't worry about it. Everyone knows that Xu Hong is a good seller. He made a mistake, and he corrected it. He even got on this forum to talk to us about it, which counts for a lot. He's an even better seller now than he was before, so I think a little pressure for him to do it better has both increased his income, and increased the quality of coins we get from him.

He is influential, and other dealers watch what he does. Make sure you reward him for changing for the better, because other dealers will follow his example. We don't have to forget what happened in the past, but that's only because it shows us how much he has improved as a seller.

Yes, he is an excellent seller. My best coins came from him. If it wasn't for him, I could never have found such coins let alone at reasonable prices.

exchange
Title: Re: Rewrapped Pandas
Post by: mrslick32 on August 26, 2011, 04:22:09 AM
I can understand why Comeaux felt the way he did. Anyone who continuously keeps getting low grade items will not be happy as well. However, I am lucky to have a different experience buying from Xu Hong so far. I bought two 1991 silver panda proofs that both graded MS69 and a 1992 5 oz. silver panda that graded PF69.

I am just speculating here but one possible reason for the low grades that Comeaux got is due to the handling of the coins during shipping. Based on my experience, most modern Chinese coins up to around the year 2003 move around inside their plastic capsules (whether in OMP, resealed, or just the capsule) because the capsules are too big for the coins. Imagine all the moving around the coins did inside the capsule and how many people handled the package from the time it left Xu Hong's store up to the time it arrived at the buyer's mailing address. I'm not even considering the handling before it got to Xu Hong's store. If the coins are not handled properly, they may develop some bumps on the surface, which is one area that NGC and PCGS looks at to determine the grade of the coin. It is difficult to see these bumps without examining the coins under magnification, which I don't think Xu Hong has the luxury of doing given the number of coins he offers for sale. Silver is much harder than gold so I don't expect silver to develop bump marks or scratches as easily as gold coins, but it's still possible.

This may be counterintuitive to most people, but the only MS70 coin I received from NGC so far was a coin that I did not buy double sealed. It was only inside a plastic capsule, which I think was not the original capsule because the capsule was an exact fit for the coin. Another reason why I think it is not the original capsule is because I have doubles of the exact coin and all the other coins were in capsules that allowed the coins to move around. Probably I was just lucky that the previous owner knew how to handle coins and transferred the coin from OMP to the air-tite capsule right after receiving the coin from the mint, but I am speculating here again. However, I got an MS70 grade for the coin and it looks great, which is what I am happy about. I noticed that more of the recent coins have been getting MS70s. I only have a 2007 1 oz. silver panda (I don't collect 2004 to present silver pandas in 1 oz. size) so my sample size is really small, but I noticed that the coin fits snugly inside its capsule. I can imagine that most of the later releases from the mint have capsules that fit better and thus more MS70 grades are achieved by these coins.
Title: Re: Rewrapped Pandas
Post by: badon on August 26, 2011, 03:30:43 PM
I agree. Original mint packaging is usually very poor, and actually damages the coins. For those who don't want to send their coins to NCS/NGC, the next best alternative is to put the coins into an airtite brand holder, or something similar, just to stop the original packaging from damaging the coin.
Title: Re: Rewrapped Pandas
Post by: exchange on August 26, 2011, 03:37:32 PM
I agree. Original mint packaging is usually very poor, and actually damages the coins. For those who don't want to send their coins to NCS/NGC, the next best alternative is to put the coins into an airtite brand holder, or something similar, just to stop the original packaging from damaging the coin.

I disagree, as we discussed it several times in other threads.

exchange
Title: Re: Rewrapped Pandas
Post by: comeaux on August 26, 2011, 03:47:04 PM
This is getting to be hilarious !!! :lol:
Title: Re: Rewrapped Pandas
Post by: comeaux on August 26, 2011, 04:08:27 PM
Haven’t we all figured it out yet that OMP is nothing more than worthless plastic with harmful chemicals and PVC’s that will destroy our prized coins and that NCS/NGC are nothing more than robbers, crooks & criminals that will steal/swap our coins and that those coins that do safely make it through the NCS/NGC “butcher shop” will just degrade into worthless piles of metal in years to come !!!
 
decisions  decisions   :laugh:
Title: Re: Rewrapped Pandas
Post by: Pandaguy on August 27, 2011, 09:02:26 PM
Haven’t we all figured it out yet that OMP is nothing more than worthless plastic with harmful chemicals and PVC’s that will destroy our prized coins and that NCS/NGC are nothing more than robbers, crooks & criminals that will steal/swap our coins and that those coins that do safely make it through the NCS/NGC “butcher shop” will just degrade into worthless piles of metal in years to come !!!

I like the way you stated your opinion. I do believe there may be some truth in it, especially the second half of your sentence.
 
decisions  decisions   :laugh:

Title: Re: Rewrapped Pandas
Post by: comeaux on August 28, 2011, 11:25:17 AM
I like the way you stated your opinion. I do believe there may be some truth in it, especially the second half of your sentence

Hello Pandaguy … thanks for your response but the truth in my comment is nothing, there is no truth to it all as far as I believe. I simply made this statement in humor taking a jab at the incessant squabbling over what is better … OMP or grading  There has been nothing to factually substantiate the argument from either side (OMP vs. Grading).   

From my personal experience I have seen coins remain in perfect mint condition after 30 years in OMP and still look as good as the day they were minted, they even graded 69 after being entombed in plastic for 30 years. So I have seen no proof that remaining in OMP will be detrimental to the coin.

With that being said I have graded nearly 200 panda coins at NCS/NGC and have been very pleased, to the best of my knowledge my coins have not been robbed and pillaged or I would not be getting back my 69’s and 70’s as those would likely be the ones stolen. There are members here who have had thousands of coins graded. The coins I have had graded look perfectly fine and I have no reason to believe they will not remain in this condition.

Everyone has their own opinion and beliefs as to what is best for their coins and I nor anyone else really has enough facts to conclusively say what truly is better when it comes to OMP/Grading. In view of this fact, I will choose not to engage in discussions any longer of what is better as like I said, nobody really knows for sure. Both sides have very valid points.

Personally I will continue to maintain coins in both of these states, OMP and NGC graded.  :001_smile:   
Title: Re: Rewrapped Pandas
Post by: GDG's on September 23, 2011, 10:49:01 AM
Xu Hung is an HONEST seller. Ask him any question and he will give you an honest answer. He offers a complete refund and pays return shipping. I have bought from him and never had a problem because I ask any question I have and he gives an honest answer. I asked about this specific issue and he told me item was resealed. Please don't be so quick to label someone dishonest.

That being said, you can always buy slabbed coins right here in the U.S.A. I buy most often from Jay but have bought from many others and have never had a problem. I have found all Panda collectors to be honest so far. I am careful to deal with reputable dealers and I'm sure we all know who they are.
Title: Re: Rewrapped Pandas
Post by: Coinslinger on October 29, 2011, 01:44:42 AM
It is NOT honest to reseal coins. PERIOD.  Stop defending this nonsense.... I too have had an overall good experience with this seller and yes, if confronted he will confess that a particular item may have been resealed..... the fact that he doesn't initially disclose which items may or may not have been resealed is in itself a dishonest practice.... there is no such thing as random, selective 'honesty'.  I have nothing personal against Xu Hung, but he needs to be cease and desist this shady practice.  Just sell the coin as you received it.

If God wanted unsealed coins to be resealed, then he would have miracled them back into their original seals!  ;)  
Title: Re: Rewrapped Pandas
Post by: badon on October 29, 2011, 02:27:41 AM
Although I agree in principle, the adage that one bad apple spoils the bunch is true even in China. Chinese culture has long been tolerant of fraud, and if one business engages in fraud, it can quickly consume the entire market in the zero sum game of the cul-de-sac of Asia if the other businesses do not do it themselves.
Title: Re: Rewrapped Pandas
Post by: comeaux on November 13, 2011, 10:10:39 PM
It is NOT honest to reseal coins. PERIOD.  Stop defending this nonsense.... I too have had an overall good experience with this seller and yes, if confronted he will confess that a particular item may have been resealed..... the fact that he doesn't initially disclose which items may or may not have been resealed is in itself a dishonest practice.... there is no such thing as random, selective 'honesty'.
I completely agree ...

Coinslinger I applaud you as one of the only large dealers who has publicly conveyed honestly what many feel about this topic but have not said publicly, only through PM.

I have said many times as well, I have no problem with Xu at all, only the practice of resealing coins and the buyer not being informed unless he asks if the coin has been resealed.

I understand that from what many Chinese members on this forum say, the Chinese do not care about resealed coins, do not like graded coins and do not trust NGC. I completely understand this.

With this thought in mind, would I be out of line and an unscrupulous seller if I busted out some 67’s and 68’s then resealed them and sold them on ebay to Chinese customers without disclosing resealing unless asked?

This is s serious question and I am in no way attempting to upset anyone but if Chinese buyers only care about owning the coin and do not have faith in NGC grading, why would they care if I reseal a 67 graded coin if they do not have trust in grading companies and buy resealed coins without issue? They may think NGC’s 67 is a phenomenal coin ?

I have busted out quite a few coins without issue at all so I know I would not damage the coin and I would not be “baking” them or taking them out of OMP to “wash” the silver coins. All I would be doing is removing them from their holder, put in capsule and reseal them.

I am in no way saying I am doing this or would do it … I’m just curious IF I would do this what would be so different than what is currently being done by certain sellers? 

Cheers !       
Title: Re: Rewrapped Pandas
Post by: Underbidder on November 13, 2011, 10:15:15 PM
That is absolutely two of the best posts on the subject, no wait make it three including Comeaux, Coinslinger and Badon.

Well put.
Title: Re: Rewrapped Pandas
Post by: SANDAC on November 13, 2011, 11:33:59 PM
For me a raw coin means "caveat emptor".  It doesn't matter to me whether it was OMP, resealed, or resealed after busting out of a TPG holder.  It is all the same and should be treated as such.  I don't for a moment believe that OMP represents the average condition of the coin as it comes out of the mint.  Just consider this very normal scenerio:  I have a sheet of 10 coins.  I examine them, then pick out the best ones to sent to NGC/PCGS.  I sell the rest of them as OMP.  That's pass #1.  On pass #2, the individually OMP-wrapped coins are collected and examined.  Naturally I keep the best one and sell off the worst one.  Onward to pass #3...   This is similar to the so-called "unsearched roll of quarters" straight from the bank vault.  It maybe unsearched after they've entered bank's coin counting machine, but they were searched many many times before getting there.  So the pre-1964 silver quarters are already plucked out and the "unsearched roll" does not represent the average quarter population at all.   No, OMP, same as raw coin, does not represent the average.  On day one, possibly, but 20 years later?
Title: Re: Rewrapped Pandas
Post by: comeaux on November 14, 2011, 12:05:28 AM
For me a raw coin means "caveat emptor".  It doesn't matter to me whether it was OMP, resealed, or resealed after busting out of a TPG holder.  It is all the same and should be treated as such.  I don't for a moment believe that OMP represents the average condition of the coin as it comes out of the mint.  Just consider this very normal scenerio:  I have a sheet of 10 coins.  I examine them, then pick out the best ones to sent to NGC/PCGS.  I sell the rest of them as OMP.  That's pass #1.  On pass #2, the individually OMP-wrapped coins are collected and examined.  Naturally I keep the best one and sell off the worst one.  Onward to pass #3...   This is similar to the so-called "unsearched roll of quarters" straight from the bank vault.  It maybe unsearched after they've entered bank's coin counting machine, but they were searched many many times before getting there.  So the pre-1964 silver quarters are already plucked out and the "unsearched roll" does not represent the average quarter population at all.   No, OMP, same as raw coin, does not represent the average.  On day one, possibly, but 20 years later?

Thanks for your response …       

Seriously Sandac? … you are saying if I buy a coin from a reputable dealer that is sold as “OMP” that I should accept it as “BUYER BEWARE” ??? … SERIOUSLY ??? 

No disrespect at all to you but I amiably disagree. 

As a buyer/collector I have the right to expect that a reputable dealer who is selling me a set of Pagodas, Goldfish or Pandas, etc as “OMP”, that these coins are indeed sealed in their original seal/packaging as the day they were minted. Anything less is NOT OMP.

If these “OMP” coins I am buying have been previously submitted for grading, graded very low and then busted out of their holder, then I am being scammed if they are sold as OMP. There is a HUGE difference in value.

The same thing applies if these same “OMP” coins have been removed from their original seal and “baked”, “washed” or any other cosmetics and then resealed and sold as “OMP”.

I don’t think there is one reputable dealer who will come on this forum right now and tell me that busting out my 67’s or 68’s and resealing them to be sold as “OMP” is an honest way of dealing coins.

If that is the case and there is nothing wrong with it then the coin collecting world is going in the wrong direction.

I want to believe that dealers would not stoop to this level to make a profit.

So I guess in your opinion I can remove all of my low grade coins from their holders, reseal them and sell them to anyone and that is fine with you?

Maybe if it is no problem to the Chinese buyers I may pursue this avenue, they see no problem with it, I can unload coins that I don't want and they will be happy just getting the coins they want.

Maybe it's a "win win" for us all !   :w00t:
Title: Re: Rewrapped Pandas
Post by: SANDAC on November 14, 2011, 01:31:47 AM
This is just my opinion, when it comes to raw coins which in my mind include OMP, resealed, and unsealed coins, the reputation and gurantee of the seller is paramount, especially so if I can't examine the product in person.  So I certainly won't deal with seller who knowingly acts in an unethical manner.   OMPer would disagree with me here, but having established the reputation of a seller, I don't really care whether a seller reseal a coin or not as long as it is backed up with the same gurantee.  It is no different than the shrink wrap machine at the back of many retailers repairing torn packages and resell them as new.  It doesn't matter to me as long as it looks new, nothing missing, and is guranteed like the new one.  OK, so I don't mind reseal, but the seller doesn't just serve me only, he has to serve the OMPer as well, so he should and must change his labelling practice to satisfy the other customers.  I'm an interested observer, not because I personally believe the quality of product has changed, but the response of a seller to the demand of his customers says a great deal about his characters and integrity.  I'm satisfied with what I've observed.  I'm confident the particular seller will no longer sell resealed coin without explicit labelling, and thanks to the active discussion on this forum, the future sellers will also learn to label their coins appropriately.
Title: Re: Rewrapped Pandas
Post by: Underbidder on November 14, 2011, 01:56:31 AM
...the response of a seller to the demand of his customers says a great deal about his characters and integrity.  I'm satisfied with what I've observed.  I'm confident the particular seller will no longer sell resealed coin without explicit labelling, and thanks to the active discussion on this forum, the future sellers will also learn to label their coins appropriately.


What changes have you seen?  Did I miss it, did particular seller state no more reseals without labeling as such?

I am glad to hear your stand on the correctness of disclosure.
Title: Re: Rewrapped Pandas
Post by: SANDAC on November 14, 2011, 02:12:39 AM
Yes, it is posted on their website.

Welcome back, BTW.  I always enjoy reading your frank, unvarnished discussion.
Title: Re: Rewrapped Pandas
Post by: Underbidder on November 14, 2011, 02:18:44 AM
Yes, it is posted on their website.

Welcome back, BTW.  I always enjoy reading your frank, unvarnished discussion.

Thanks.  :001_smile:

I just wish they'd post it on the auction description too, like they disclose that the item may not be the one in the photo.
Title: Re: Rewrapped Pandas
Post by: comeaux on November 14, 2011, 12:59:33 PM
Sandac & Underbidder thanks  for the open and honest feedback … greatly appreciated.

Based on what you are saying and what has been conveyed by most of the Chinese Community here on the forum, I will more than likely “reseal” some 67’s and 68’s for sales to China.

From what I have read here, the Chinese buyers are perfectly fine with it and I am unloading unwanted inventory so basically helping myself as well as Chinese customers !

I will break even or profit on these coins and the Chinese customers will get coins they are accustomed to getting anyway so as I said, everyone wins !!! 

Thanks  :001_smile:   
Title: Re: Rewrapped Pandas
Post by: badon on November 27, 2011, 04:18:38 PM
I don't for a moment believe that OMP represents the average condition of the coin as it comes out of the mint.  Just consider this very normal scenerio:  I have a sheet of 10 coins.  I examine them, then pick out the best ones to sent to NGC/PCGS.  I sell the rest of them as OMP.  That's pass #1.  On pass #2, the individually OMP-wrapped coins are collected and examined.  Naturally I keep the best one and sell off the worst one.  Onward to pass #3...   This is similar to the so-called "unsearched roll of quarters" straight from the bank vault.  It maybe unsearched after they've entered bank's coin counting machine, but they were searched many many times before getting there.  So the pre-1964 silver quarters are already plucked out and the "unsearched roll" does not represent the average quarter population at all.   No, OMP, same as raw coin, does not represent the average.  On day one, possibly, but 20 years later?

Very good way to put it, SANDAC. Previously, the big money was in the 69's. Now dealers are looking for 70's. The entire supply of some popular, rare coins that sell for large premiums in 69 grades has probably been thoroughly searched. Now, more common coins are getting thoroughly searched.

I have noticed myself that, a few years ago, if the NGC grading stats said 4 out of 5 coins earned a 69 grade, I could go buy any random pile of OMP coins, and 4 out of 5 were good enough to come back in a 69 grade. Now, for some coins, that ratio has reduced, and I have to "cull" out the damaged coins before I send them to NGC if I still want to get 4 out of 5 in a 69 grade.

It's all because of Gresham's law, applied to numismatics: the damaged coins continue to circulate from one "lottery ticket" buyer to another, while the nice coins end up in a 69 or 70 holder, and end up in someone's family heirloom collection forever.

That's why the Chinese auctions are showing high prices and large numbers of NGC graded coins. There are picky people, and there are average people. The picky people pay big bucks for high grade NGC coins, and the average people will take whatever they can get for the cheapest price. That is true in the West and the East.
Title: Re: Rewrapped Pandas
Post by: Lightsview on December 12, 2011, 02:43:20 AM

Hi guys, saw this auction on ebay and I was wondering if this is a rewrapped panda? Obviously, it isn't a proof panda as stated by the seller  >:(

http://www.ebay.com.sg/itm/380391514204?ssPageName=STRK:MESINDXX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1436.l2649
Title: Re: Rewrapped Pandas
Post by: Pandagongzi on February 07, 2012, 02:17:00 AM
I have seen 94SD in Guobao package.  Did I find a new variety or it's a reseal?
Title: Re: Rewrapped Pandas
Post by: chinarares on August 09, 2013, 11:46:53 AM
in China,we trust all the coins issued before 2000 as not good in condition, when they are in double seal.
Title: Re: Rewrapped Pandas
Post by: poconopenn on August 09, 2013, 01:11:47 PM
in China,we trust all the coins issued before 2000 as not good in condition, when they are in double seal.

Yes, in resealed package, but not in genuine original double sealed package.