Chinese Coins Forum

Features => Modern Chinese Coins => Chinese Panda Coins => Topic started by: poconopenn on May 17, 2017, 05:05:49 PM

Title: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product
Post by: poconopenn on May 17, 2017, 05:05:49 PM
The article published on 5/8/17 by Zhao Yan Sheng (赵燕生) stated that 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda was made by a private Mint, not a genuine coin from China Mint.

Mr. Zhao is a well-known expert in MCC and has published many books about MCC. He was Vice Plant Manager of production at China Banknote Printing and Minting Company in 1980s and later promoted to Managing Director of Great Wall Investment Co. of H. K., a Division of Exporting of China Gold Coin Inc.

http://www.coin001.com/read.php?tid=123438

Title: Re: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product
Post by: poconopenn on May 17, 2017, 05:26:27 PM
NGC did not certify 2001 small D until at the end of 2012

http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=8281.0
Title: Re: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product
Post by: ccl on May 17, 2017, 06:49:47 PM
Thanks poconopenn! IMO, your karma rating should be #1
Title: Re: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product
Post by: pandamonium on May 17, 2017, 07:38:13 PM
What will happen to the value of the small D?......
Title: Re: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product
Post by: trozau on May 17, 2017, 08:18:13 PM
What a revelation! Thanks for sharing this breaking development.
Title: Re: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product
Post by: trozau on May 17, 2017, 08:22:07 PM
What will happen to the value of the small D?......
Should now be considered a counterfeit/curiosity since it is found to be NOT an official mint issue.
Title: Re: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product
Post by: Mirkkanen on May 17, 2017, 08:23:01 PM
NGC did not certify 2001 small D until at the end of 2012

http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=8281.0

Why did NGC (and PCGS) certify these coins if they were not genuine mint products? WHERE was this man for the past 5 years, and why was this info not published earlier?
Title: Re: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product
Post by: jedi2832 on May 17, 2017, 08:33:17 PM
so what do i do with the small d i spend alot money on? will ngc buy it back?
Title: Re: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product
Post by: KeepOnTrying! on May 17, 2017, 09:01:08 PM
Does NGC's warranty cover such eventuality? Because by grading these coins they essentially confirmed that they were genuine thereby possibly inducing many collectors to buy these coins. Interesting development!
Title: Re: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product
Post by: poconopenn on May 17, 2017, 09:44:30 PM
NGC did not certify 2001 small D until at the end of 2012

http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=8281.0


Sorry wrong link. This is the correct one. Hippanda and dynamike 51 questioned the authenticity of this coin at the beginning.

http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=2193.0
Title: Re: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product
Post by: KeyDate1/2ozPandas on May 17, 2017, 10:31:49 PM
In China it was known that small D was not an official issue, what I didn't know was it was made by a private mint, rather than special order by say a bank or distributor.   It will be interesting to see how NGC and PCGS handle their guaranty, is it just a label error or something more serious.   Many of the gold panda prestige sets have silver lunar that NGC now certifies, the label assigned to the coin varies with some label making it seem like a china mint issue.

The 1992 1/20 and 1/10 high 2 are also suspicious authenticity from what I have been told, which why I have avoided them.
Title: Re: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product
Post by: format on May 17, 2017, 11:59:44 PM
I believe all Small D 2001 panda coins are genuine. It's not possible to stamp D on a regular 2001 panda so to creat Small D. Silver is very soft, such stamp process will break the coin or will at least shows uneven on the reverse side, furthermore, if you check NGC census or studyig all pix of all the small D found till now, D is at exactly the same place at each Small D coin, I don't believe fake makers can manage it unless they have a real die, in other words, they were not able to stamp D at the same place at every coin. Furthermore, if they want to make big money, why they didn't create some "double D" or other more different D styles on regular no D panda to rip off? Only this small D variety? So the only explanation for this small D coin is that they are genuine coins, I believe Shenzhen Guoboa Mint was short of experience back on 2001, somehow they broke the large D die and had to use a new die to make coins, this new die's D was smaller than the old die and its D position was also not exactly the same as the old die, by using this new die, small D coins were made, and that's the only fact.
Zhao Yan Sheng wrote that he has contacted the Mint people for an investigation... But how can he contact all workers and management people at that time? Back to 2000 and 2001?? It's absolutely not possible, people on board and quit job often, he cannot find all people related to this coin back to 15 years ago, so he is telling a lie and the question is what else in his article is true.
Title: Re: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product
Post by: comeaux on May 18, 2017, 12:00:07 AM
NGC did not certify 2001 small D until at the end of 2012

http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=8281.0

The article published on 5/8/17 by Zhao Yan Sheng (赵燕生) stated that 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda was made by a private Mint, not a genuine coin from China Mint.

Mr. Zhao is a well-known expert in MCC and has published many books about MCC. He was Vice Plant Manager of production at China Banknote Printing and Minting Company in 1980s and later promoted to Managing Director of Great Wall Investment Co. of H. K., a Division of Exporting of China Gold Coin Inc.

http://www.coin001.com/read.php?tid=123438

Extremely interesting development, as always ... thanks Poconopenn for your tremendous contributions. Your knowledge is unmatched & irreplaceable. Also that's an awesome link you posted below from years ago where Hippanda & Dynamike suspected chicanery, those guys always contributed big time. Enjoy Hippanda witty & whimsical comments, super sleuth amongst the best at spotting "flim flam" carnival barkers !   

For those curious what NGC & PCGS will do? Of course they'll do nothing. They graded a coin submitted from private mint. That would be my guess   

Title: Re: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product
Post by: poconopenn on May 18, 2017, 12:25:19 AM


The 1992 1/20 and 1/10 high 2 are also suspicious authenticity from what I have been told, which why I have avoided them.

You are right, I have avoided them too.

I am wondering about the 2001 D gold pandas, since they also show high and low D in all denominations, but NGC and PCGS did not designate as variety. Very strange, perhaps, they do know something.

Title: Re: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product
Post by: poconopenn on May 18, 2017, 12:30:50 AM

For those curious what NGC & PCGS will do? Of course they'll do nothing. They graded a coin submitted from private mint. That would be my guess   



Similar to Imperial and Republic coins produced at private mint, it can be identified as "Fantasy Coin".
Title: Re: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product
Post by: eric on May 18, 2017, 12:43:50 AM
I believe all Small D 2001 panda coins are genuine. It's not possible to stamp D on a regular 2001 panda so to creat Small D.

I don't think they are saying the D was an aftermarket stamp, they are saying the entire coin was minted by a private mint.

If it's true, it's a pretty huge scam.
Title: Re: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product
Post by: eric on May 18, 2017, 12:49:57 AM
What will happen to the value of the small D?......

If the news is true, the value will plunge.

Here's an interesting WHAT IF... (I don't think this is the case, but...) what if this is fake news? Maybe someone is going to pick up hundreds of small D's for $50/each, then just wait for the fake news to blow over...  Just like the stock market shills that happen in forums all the time.
Title: Re: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product
Post by: eric on May 18, 2017, 12:54:27 AM
In China it was known that small D was not an official issue, what I didn't know was it was made by a private mint, rather than special order by say a bank or distributor. 

How could it not be official if it was 10 Yuan? If it's real currency it's official isn't it? Otherwise it's not just unofficial, it's counterfeit, right?
Title: Re: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product
Post by: wg on May 18, 2017, 01:06:53 AM
 overpaid :(, but mint product

http://www.ebay.de/itm/10-YUAN-CHINA-2001-SMALL-D-PANDA-PCGS-MS69-/262739383174?hash=item3d2c7cd386%3Ag%3AplIAAOSwhOVXcq9u&nma=true&si=ZbLYQMyxT8L0MH3moLgP3gG7umk%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

Title: Re: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product
Post by: wg on May 18, 2017, 01:21:08 AM
How could it not be official if it was 10 Yuan? If it's real currency it's official isn't it? Otherwise it's not just unofficial, it's counterfeit, right?

1992 panda with privy .. "privat mint" ( "mintage" 3k )
http://www.ebay.de/itm/10-Yuan-China-Feinsilber-Munze-1Oz-Unze-1992-Panda-PP-Proof-privy-mark-Fackel-/142297862495?hash=item21219d115f:g:ZpgAAOSw32lYtyW-
1999 panda with y2k .. "privat mint" ( if i remember right .. "mintage" 10k )
http://www.ebay.de/itm/1999-china-panda-y2k-silver-coin-/172471809407?hash=item28281ef57f%3Ag%3A-XMAAOSwHaBWiZJ0&nma=true&si=y0Zmw91otwGhZgkKjLtd8r4L2Sg%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

fight against milk spots ..  :001_tongue:
 N36
colour/gilded .. "privat mint" ( "mintage" felt millions :001_rolleyes:)
http://www.ebay.de/sch/i.html?_odkw=1992+panda&_ftrt=901&_sop=12&_sadis=10&_dmd=1&_osacat=11116&_ipg=50&LH_SALE_CURRENCY=0&_ftrv=1&_from=R40&_trksid=p2045573.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC0.H1.X+panda+farbe+gilded.TRS0&_nkw=+panda+farbe+gilded&_sacat=11116
Title: Re: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product
Post by: aragog on May 18, 2017, 02:02:36 AM
Similar to Imperial and Republic coins produced at private mint, it can be identified as "Fantasy Coin".
The difference is, this Panda is legal tender currency, and it is sort big crime...
Title: Re: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product
Post by: format on May 18, 2017, 02:21:55 AM
I don't think they are saying the D was an aftermarket stamp, they are saying the entire coin was minted by a private mint.

If it's true, it's a pretty huge scam.
Come on, I have studied this small D for years, all I can tell is that it's from shenzhen mint for sure, cannot be fake! If they make fake small D coins, the fakers can do anything and they can be very rich, so the only possibility is that this small D is from shenzhen mint back to end of 2000 or 2001, I dare to say it, there is another reason, as I have seen mint sealed sheets(2~4 sheets from a opened mint package), with mint marks and seals, outside paper seals as well, the samething you can see for large D (normal versions), everything shows such small D cannot be fake.
Title: Re: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product
Post by: dynamike51 on May 18, 2017, 04:33:48 AM
Sorry wrong link. This is the correct one. Hippanda and dynamike 51 questioned the authenticity of this coin at the beginning.

http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=2193.0

A very unfortunate development, really.  A few members on CCF were pumping the "new variety", and a few caught a whiff of the raging pump and paid well over $1K /each.  They "invested" in a rumor and lost money while the sellers raked in the windfall.  There's a lesson to be learned here.
Title: Re: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product
Post by: format on May 18, 2017, 04:47:55 AM
In China it was known that small D was not an official issue, . ....
I don't agree with it, here at China, among Chinese collectors, this small D is recognized as a rare variety. Its price is very high, hard to find so some people just spread false information about this small D. If you compare small D and large D by using a 20 or 30 times magnifier, compare everywhere: temple, panda hair... You will have a clear conclusion that they are identical coins except the D mark, that is also what exactly PCGS and NGC did their jobs to recognize and to slab small D, and it's hard to image the faker can steal the die from shenzhen mint and made their private coins at their own workshops just for fun, it's just too crazy, you know back to 2001, such D mark coin is around 80 RMB, does it make sense to make fake of a cheap coin back to 2001?
Title: Re: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product
Post by: wg on May 18, 2017, 05:28:32 AM
maybe "privat minting" was done 2010 or 2011
take some 2001 sheets and hammer a "d" isn't so difficult, or?
remember 1992 p and 99 bu panda.

btw.
 look inside the three p.a. books .... there is no small "d"

Title: Re: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product
Post by: pandamonium on May 18, 2017, 08:10:36 AM
Interesting comments, i wonder what the future holds for other MCC........   Semi immature market so lots to learn...
Title: Re: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product
Post by: trozau on May 18, 2017, 08:11:09 AM
maybe "privat minting" was done 2010 or 2011
take some 2001 sheets and hammer a "d" isn't so difficult, or?
remember 1992 p and 99 bu panda.

btw.
 look inside the three p.a. books .... there is no small "d"


I only have the third edition of the Gold & Silver Panda Coin Buyers Guide book and the chapter on varieties has the 2001 large D and small D silver.
Title: Re: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product
Post by: wg on May 18, 2017, 08:20:07 AM
Quote
I only have the third edition of the Gold & Silver Panda Coin Buyers Guide book and the chapter on varieties has the 2001 large D and small D silver.
thanks .. you are right.
my mistake, i didn't check the varieties.
Title: Re: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product
Post by: 1668Chris on May 18, 2017, 10:00:25 AM
While I have to respect the opinion of Zhao Yan Sheng given his past positions within the Mint....I have to respectfully question the fact that btw NGC and PCGS approx. 250 small D's have been graded.  Are we saying that btw the two most highly respected grading companies in the world, they got it wrong?  Its one thing to say that you cannot find any mint evidence of the dies, etc. but how does that lead to say it was minted by a private mint?  Does he have evidence of this....not sure.

I think its time the China Mint step up and start revealing information about many things as opposed to leaving collectors in the dark ( I cannot stress this enough). 

How can the China Mint not step in and say NGC or PCGS you are wrong.  Also, what quality control process does NGC or PCGS have before certifying a coin is genuine.  This leaves many open questions regarding all other MCC's if the 2001 small D were in fact not minted by an official mint.  I would hate to be NGC since their warranty is unlimited vs. PCGS only $1,000. 

Also, who are the experts here???  Are they in the US or are they in China??  maybe the experts should collaborate and come to a common view before information is published.
Title: Re: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product
Post by: fwang2450 on May 18, 2017, 12:17:36 PM
I am taking Mr. Zhao's argument with a huge pinch of salt. I do not collect these coins, and so do not have them at hand to examine all the microscopic characteristics. But from the way he made his assertion, I think his argument is flawed. He said that only one set of master hub was used, and so there was no way to have two different sizes for D. We don't even know at which stage that D was added. It is highly possible that D was added later than the master hub. So yes, only one master hub was used, but still there may be two different versions of D if it was added later on.
Title: Re: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product
Post by: PandaCollector on May 18, 2017, 02:06:40 PM
Should now be considered a counterfeit/curiosity since it is found to be NOT an official mint issue.

Something to keep in mind; this is not an official statement from China Gold Coin, China Banknote Printing & Minting, or the People's Bank of China.

Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
China Pricepedia
The Gold & Silver Panda Coin Buyer’s Guide 3
www.pandacollector.com

Title: Re: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product
Post by: 1668Chris on May 18, 2017, 02:15:26 PM
I am taking Mr. Zhao's argument with a huge pinch of salt. I do not collect these coins, and so do not have them at hand to examine all the microscopic characteristics. But from the way he made his assertion, I think his argument is flawed. He said that only one set of master hub was used, and so there was no way to have two different sizes for D. We don't even know at which stage that D was added. It is highly possible that D was added later than the master hub. So yes, only one master hub was used, but still there may be two different versions of D if it was added later on.

I also do not own any small D's. 

This goes back to, for example, the 1994 unicorn proof.  You have 3 different locations for the "P"....how is this possible under Zhao's argument...its not.  I go back to the theory of hand punching dies.
Title: Re: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product
Post by: PandaCollector on May 18, 2017, 02:22:24 PM
I am taking Mr. Zhao's argument with a huge pinch of salt. I do not collect these coins, and so do not have them at hand to examine all the microscopic characteristics. But from the way he made his assertion, I think his argument is flawed. He said that only one set of master hub was used, and so there was no way to have two different sizes for D. We don't even know at which stage that D was added. It is highly possible that D was added later than the master hub. So yes, only one master hub was used, but still there may be two different versions of D if it was added later on.

Dies can be altered and marks (like mint marks) added, but it requires the original die. It is interesting that the statement ends by disparaging the motives of unknown persons. Evidently the writer has somebody, or somebodies, in mind. I certainly hope that more information will be forthcoming.

Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
China Pricepedia
The Gold & Silver Panda Coin Buyer’s Guide 3
www.pandacollector.com

P.S. I also do not own this variety.

Title: Re: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product
Post by: KeyDate1/2ozPandas on May 18, 2017, 02:57:43 PM
Are we saying that btw the two most highly respected grading companies in the world, they got it wrong?  Its one thing to say that you cannot find any mint evidence of the dies, etc. but how does that lead to say it was minted by a private mint?  Does he have evidence of this....not sure.

Also, who are the experts here???  Are they in the US or are they in China??  maybe the experts should collaborate and come to a common view before information is published.

NGC and PCGS get it wrong more often than you would think.  Graders may spends a few seconds on a given modern coin to determine its grade and authenticity.  I had over 130 mislabeled coins at one time from just NGC, mainly 1992 and 1993 SD vs LD.  There also countless times PCGS slabbed counterfeit 2000 mirror silver panda as genuine and other times NGC would state authentic 2000 mirror panda as questionable authenticity.   When NGC got more involved with older chinese coins they slabbed fake imperial coins as authentic because their top graders were less experienced compared to PCGS. 

From what I understood was the coins were authentic but the printing of the D was aftermarket done later by either by an official mint or private mint.  Imagine a dealer got a 2000x 2001 silver pandas lying around and asks the mint or a private mint to stamp a D on them so they are more desirable.  Or alternatively the mint got a bunch of unsold 2001 lying around in 2010 and rather than distributing them to the US, they decide to punch a D on the coin and sell them domestically.  In the first scenario NGC should not certify them because they are aftermarket, while in the second scenario NGC should certify them but label them as SP (specimen) similar to 1979 1oz silver matte year of child coin that was actually produced in 1988 despite date on the coin of 1979.

The 1992 1oz silver proof with the mark or 1992 12oz silver panda proof with 1/10oz gold inlay are authentic coins but with aftermarket alternations as a result NGC refuses to certify them. 

In the end the question will come down to when were the coins actually produced, by what mint, when were D imprinted on the coins and which mint imprinted the D, etc.  The uncertainty will certainly bring the price down as more sophisticated collectors/investors/dealers will dump first and ask questions later, while the deer in the headlight collectors will just stand pat and wait for it to shake out without increasing their position despite prices possibly going down 35%-75% over the next year.  This is common theme in the collectibles market as new information and hoards come out, those that act on the information quickly do well, while those that just take passive view often suffer losses.  It has happened to me several times when I buy something I know very little about, whether it is US coin or publicly traded stock, I sit passively and if I had simply acted on my impulse at the first sign of trouble or the first cockroach I would have cut my losses and saved a lot of money.

Finally as for experts developing a common view, that is very hard to do when data is not available.  When comparing two coins of comparable rarity it is like picking which candidate is best to become president, 50% vote one way, 50% vote another, are those that pick the winner really going to convince the other half their view is superior, almost never.   What makes MCC attractive for someone like me is the data is not available so the market pricing is very inefficient for many coins and picking sleepers is very easy compared to say the US coin market for which a lot of data is available.   Now with goldsheet being published and more sites in China publishing price and information the market is becoming more efficient, which means less opportunities for those that have skills to interpret subtle information found in auction records, pop reports, dealer patterns, investor patterns, etc.
Title: Re: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product
Post by: Hippanda on May 18, 2017, 05:04:25 PM
I haven't looked at this coin for quite a while, nor do I have one to inspect closely.  And clearly working from photos alone hampers accuracy of anaylsis. But I seem to recall there are a few mysteries that are difficult to easily resolve?

While there are apparent die differences between the three coins (standard, Large D, Small D)
it seems difficult to group. For example,  Standard and Large D seem to have different 999 style than Small D.  But Standard and Small D seem to share the belly indentation while Large D does not. So the hypothesis of someone just stamping a Small D on Standard coins seems to be at odds with details (as seen on photos)

Perhaps the biggest question to me is : if the Small D was added after, how can it be possible that there are no apparent small differences in positioning?  (Or are there ?). My examination under magnification of the Large D and Small D gold coins didnt show any variability from coin to coin in placement among samples of those two, which might be expected if D was added later.  How would consistency and tight alignment tolerances be achieved if the D's were added later?

Somebody needs to post magnified superimposed gif image study of the three to further illuminate.
SANDAC ?


Title: Re: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product
Post by: SANDAC on May 18, 2017, 07:56:33 PM
Well, here I thought the 2001 "small D" controversy had died a quiet death but it is back!

I'm certainly no expert of minting process and I leave the debate to Mr. Zhao, NGC & PCGS.  However, I've seen & done numerous overlay comparisons of  panda, unicorn, dragon & pheonix, historical figures, etc, mostly from Shenyang mint that have numerous date & text shifts (I probably should provide links here, but it is a long list.  Do CCF search with keywords "shenyang shift" will provide a number of examples).  It's not just me, CCF members 1668Chris, poconopenn, hippanda (just a few names I recall from the top of my head) all have discoveries/discussions about date shifts. 

There may only be one master die or working hub, but I'm speculating that date & text were punched in the working die, at least at the Shenyang mint.  That's why there are so many text shift examples even for small production runs.  This does not prove Mr. Zhao is wrong, a private mint can punch a small D in a working die just as well as Shenyang mint.  It is just a possible explanation for the "small D" being made in an official mint.
Title: Re: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product
Post by: Kelvin C on May 18, 2017, 10:14:17 PM
The title 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product" based on Mr. Zhao claim should be changed.
At present this is one mans opinion. It surprises that this has been confirmed by title that his statement is fact. (From reading these posts and others over the years, if anything one has learned it is to question everything.)
Allowing this title to exist sets precedent for perhaps a "50% of all Chinese Panda coins are not genuine and have been and continue to be minted by a private mint" title.

Regards to this small d Panda. One questions why go to all this trouble. Where is the instant profit. (dealers were buying these from other coin dealers in Shanghai, Beijing and other coin markets- for the same price as 2001 large d's might add)
Why go to the trouble of only making a few hundred? If one knows this coin will be questioned. Why not keep cashing in until exposed? Many have been seen in Shenzhen Guobao Mint package.. Details of these so called puppy coins have fooled NGC, PCGS and Chinese dealers for years?   

I would kindly ask Arif to expand on this comment: "In China it was known that small D was not an official issue" China is a big country? Where in China was this known?- When and how long was this known?-And that the small d is not an official issue..By what sources and evidence?

It appears that some in this forum would like to see this coin as not an official issue. However, it is premature to confirm this in the title at this time.

Additionally, "Imagine a dealer got a 2000x 2001 silver pandas lying around........." Facts are not based on imagine things. "Imagine the China mints are going to re-strike gold pandas to there original mint issue numbers in the future??

"I think its time the China Mint step up and start revealing information about many things as opposed to leaving collectors in the dark ( I cannot stress this enough). " This would help. However, are many members of this forum familiar with how things were run there 15-20 years ago?

Lastly, NGC and PCGS authenticated these as genuine Chinese Panda coins. Surely they did some research before deciding to grade hundreds of these pandas?

On contact with a Chinese dealer yesterday.. His thoughts.. it make sense to always watch the magician other hand when he perform his trick.. I am not state his opinion deceitful but history is filled with profits of great wealth by wrongful claim and unsubstantiated rumor.

Please consider if the opinion of one man is justification to verify by this post title at this time a panda coin is not genuine. The opinions and claims of men even and especially respected may have serious consequence on other coins and perhaps panda market in as a whole in general.

Title: Re: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product
Post by: poconopenn on May 19, 2017, 12:15:00 AM
Since we do not have clear and high resolution pictures for comparison, attached are pictures of 2001, 2001 LD and 2001 SD, 3 coins for  each version, for future reference. They were copied from PCGS site and all are MS69.
Title: Re: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product
Post by: KeyDate1/2ozPandas on May 19, 2017, 12:16:40 AM
My information about small D came from Shanghai.  A US customer asked me to get him a sheet of small D coins from Shanghai after they started showing up in the NGC pop reports, when I asked around I learned there was a controversy about its authenticity, which was also  discussed on this forum.   I told the customer what I learned and he still requested I get him a sheet since NGC was grading them he was fine with the risk, he graded the coins and kept 4 for his collection at zero cost basis.   I emailed him about this thread and he said he only has 1 left and will ride out whatever happens.  I have never owned one for my collection or sold a slabbed coin, because controversy existed about the coin, I don't want to sell a coin to a collector that may turn out to be disaster unless the customer asked me to source the coin for them. 

There are a few coins that have controversy, some people like to get involved with those coins, while I tend to avoid those high risk/high rewards scenarios.  There is a 1978 CU/NI macau grand prix coin that I started accumulating in 2009-2011, kruse book stated a mintage of 11, but I somehow accumulated 6 pieces at an average price of $700 over 3 year period without much effort.  I and those that sold the coin to me knew the mintage number had to be wrong.   I sold several on ebay but stated in the description that stated mintage is probably wrong so don't blindly buy because you are expecting a 11 mintage coin for only $2000.  Another one that has a lot controversy is 1984 silver pagoda set mintage of 260, some believe the mintage is closer to a 1000.  Another example is the 1996 1oz gold russian tiger with stated mintage of 1000, but that coins is so common that everyone is sure the mintage is a lot higher.

Those that want hard facts will be disappointed with modern chinese coin market, because I don't believe we will ever get those beside small updates to what has been already published, all we can do is study availability, pop reports, prices, dealer patterns, etc to determine what is truly rare and authentic.  I worked as an engineer back in 2001 at a factory that produced $30M of revenue per day, ask me what I remember from that year, I can't think of single hard fact that I remember about production numbers, yields, cost metrics, average selling price, unsold product, etc. despite being an analytical person who had access to every database about our production metrics.  If I can't remember and given the china mint folks probably had access or tracking to just a fraction of the information and less education, I have to assume the facts will never be discovered.   

I don't rely on anyone opinions on what is the rarity of a given coin, I do my own research and block out all the noise of collectors, investors, authors, dealers and promoters.  What I do rely on is others opinion on whether a coin variety is authentic especially if it is trading at significant premium or if the mint packaging is different from what I have seen in the past. 

I will watch this play out from the sidelines with nothing at stake.
Title: Re: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product
Post by: poconopenn on May 19, 2017, 12:17:41 AM
Pictures of 2001 SD.
Title: Re: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product
Post by: poconopenn on May 19, 2017, 03:41:01 PM
This forum has accumulated lots of information of MCC. If you dig hard enough, you always can find the very valuable treasury. The following two posts, IMO, have substantiated the statement made by Mr. Zhao that 2001 small D was discovered very late, in later part of 2012, and supplied by an exclusive source. It is my understanding, after being forced to restrike of few culture sets by Germany distributor during 2001-2003, the new rules were imposed to stop the possibility of restrike by China Gold Coin Inc. Any restrike will require the permission of top management of China Gold Coin Inc. and will have the paper document to substantiate the activity of restrike. In addition, restrike is not allowed for any coin after one year of issued date.


My survey of the 2001D is done, out of the 886 2001D S10Y NGC photo examined, I can not find a single case of small "D".  In my opinion, there is some possibility of the small "D" being a fake, but I'm more inclined to think a collector has recognized the variety early on and accumulated a significant sample of them secretly and then submit them in one lot to NGC with sufficient sample size to establish their authenticity.  Time will tell, I shall monitor the 2001D population with considerable interest, there are a couple theories I want to check out.

:blush: :drool: I Graded 1 sheet sold some coins as is: a few lucky folks got small d as regular d:)  I had 4 left from that original sheet I graded , and I conserved them and relabeled, I know where all coins that are for sale currently came from except for the gentleman (dragondollar I believe his handle is) who just got the 70, this original source had 12 or 13 sheets , I believe less than 150 coins currently have been found , I do have a sheet untouched put away  ,and am not currently selling :) , so there you go............. maybe there is a 70 in that sheet:) N30 

Stamping mint mark on coin had been done for US circulated coin. For example, it is known that S mint mark in many rare 1909-S VDR in the market place is added later by counterfeiters inside China. But it has to be done on a transfer die, since S is the raised part of the device. However, D in 2001-D is not a raised part of the device and can be easily stamped directly on the regular 2001 coin at a precise spot without any technical issue. Many private mints in Beijing and Shanghai are capable to do this type job. Those mints routinely stamp numbers and letters on the edge of low mintage copper medals made in their plant.

The differences in design of regular 2001, large D and small D are very small, even within regular 2001 or large D, some small difference can also be seen and may be simply caused by different production dies or different stages of the production die. It is a very tough task to spot an alteration if the genuine coin is stamped with a mint mark, especially by well-equipped private mint inside China.

Interestingly, Mr. Zhao does not call 2001 small D as a forgery/fake, but a fantasy coin (“臆造币”或“戏作币”). IMO, he knows the source but does not want to cause the source to be in legal trouble。

Here is the definition of fantasy coin by Edward Kann:

Fantasy coins of Chinese vantage are decorative imagery, supplemented by whimsical inscriptions, designed and struck by private parties working “underground”.


Title: Re: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product
Post by: 1668Chris on May 19, 2017, 04:07:42 PM
if the original 2001 coin was stamped with the small D by a private mint....NGC would be forced to not grade the coin, and label it counterstamped (similar to the 1992 proof with torch mark)......hence significantly decreasing the value. 
Title: Re: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product
Post by: dynamike51 on May 19, 2017, 04:27:06 PM
if the original 2001 coin was stamped with the small D by a private mint....NGC would be forced to not grade the coin, and label it counterstamped (similar to the 1992 proof with torch mark)......hence significantly decreasing the value. 

This I agreed. From all we have seen and heard, the coin itself is genuine. However, to designate 2001-small D as a distinct variety is very questionable.
Title: Re: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product
Post by: dynamike51 on May 19, 2017, 04:37:48 PM
Furthermore, how the 2001-small D was discovered is fishy at best. Based on what SANDAC stated in December 2012, "My survey of the 2001D is done, out of the 886 2001D S10Y NGC photo examined, I can not find a single case of small "D".". Yet since early 2013 small-D started showing up everywhere - some even showed up with sheets of them. The entire scenario just defies logic.
Title: Re: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product
Post by: SANDAC on May 19, 2017, 04:59:03 PM
There is a significant amount of discussions about 2001 small-D on CCF starting from reply #5:
http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=2193.0

14 pages later was my conversation with dragondollar (from whom I purchased my only 2001D small d) and his reply:
I have one sheet of 10 small Ds, and possibly several others in individual pouch like the one I sold. I need to check that out when I get back home. I was not aware of the variety before, so this is quite lucky. In 2007 a french friend asked me to bring him back 250 2001-D. Since I liked the design and the seller gave me a very attractive price I got 1 full sheet and 20 others in smaller sheets (2 or 4 together) for myself. When I read the topic, I asked my friend if he got some small D in his sheets. He does not know which one I provided him already, but he does not have any small D right now anyway. I was less lucky with the 2003, I also have one sheet of 2003 panda but no special variety.
http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=2193.msg44120#msg44120

Based on that conversation, small-D is already in the marketplace in 2007

The small-d I purchased (probably not the best one from dragondollar's collection) was perfectly brilliant.  I had hoped it would graded 70, but I received a 69 instead (NGC3764927-005) as pictured here:
http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=2193.msg47557#msg47557

The ratio of ms70 in 2001 small d is unusually high, much higher than the 2001D population.  It is almost like they were first strikes.  If they were punched later on, whoever punched them had good eyes for high quality coins and managed to picked out the very best coins for modifications knowing full well if discovered those coins would be worthless, that is certainly an unusual and unlikely strategy.
Title: Re: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product
Post by: dynamike51 on May 19, 2017, 05:13:50 PM

Based on that conversation, small-D is already in the marketplace in 2007


SANDAC, with all due respect, that assertion is based on one source, and lots of murky "he said, she said" circumstances. Again, close to 900 photos you examined you found zero small-D (up to that point in time).  Does it make any sense to you that, if someone already had possession of a small-D prior to 2012-2013, none was graded (or discovered)? Of course, it's possible but is it probable?
Title: Re: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product
Post by: trozau on May 19, 2017, 05:30:21 PM
I have not seen a 2001 large D, small D silver panda. For the 2001 500 Yuan gold panda and 2001 D 500 Yuan gold panda, the 2001 has straight reeding while the 2001 D has diagonal reeding. If the same is true for the 2001 and 2001 large D silver and the small D was just added to the 2001 silver, then the small D 2001 should have straight reeding instead of the diagonal reeding found on large D 2001.
Title: Re: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product
Post by: poconopenn on May 19, 2017, 08:19:35 PM
I have not seen a 2001 large D, small D silver panda. For the 2001 500 Yuan gold panda and 2001 D 500 Yuan gold panda, the 2001 has straight reeding while the 2001 D has diagonal reeding. If the same is true for the 2001 and 2001 large D silver and the small D was just added to the 2001 silver, then the small D 2001 should have straight reeding instead of the diagonal reeding found on large D 2001.

Both 2001 and 2001 D silver panda have straight reeding. Starting 2002, silver pandas have diagonal reeding.
Title: Re: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product
Post by: trozau on May 20, 2017, 01:28:41 AM
Both 2001 and 2001 D silver panda have straight reeding. Starting 2002, silver pandas have diagonal reeding.
That's unfortunate. Thanks for the info.
Title: Re: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product
Post by: SANDAC on May 20, 2017, 07:01:44 AM
SANDAC, with all due respect, that assertion is based on one source, and lots of murky "he said, she said" circumstances. Again, close to 900 photos you examined you found zero small-D (up to that point in time).  Does it make any sense to you that, if someone already had possession of a small-D prior to 2012-2013, none was graded (or discovered)? Of course, it's possible but is it probable?

That, indeed, is the question in everyone's mind: how is a variety that did not existed prior to 2011 suddenly showed up in abundance?  The "didn't existed prior" assertion is due to my search of what I had of NGC's database which represents about 50% of 2001D population at the time.  It is not 100% screening, but I'm satisfied that it is at least very rare.  The "abundant afterward" are due to discoveries of sheets and sheets of small-D by CCF members in good standings as documented in the pages of http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=2193.0
http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=10021.0
http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=8281.0
http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=10294.0
The original discovery was in the pages of silverstackers, topic-34387-2001d-small-d-variety.html, but my link to it is broken.
For those favor the small-D being genuine, look into the accounts of how they were discovered, population chart and great distribution channel insight by keydatepanda.
For those against the small-D, the "why none existed prior vs many afterward" remains the most convincing point.
For me, it is one of the interesting statistics mysteries in the rank of 1995 unicorn, pagoda, and frosted 1993 yin yang.  They are collectible simply because of the interesting stories behind them.
Title: Re: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product
Post by: pandamonium on May 20, 2017, 08:02:53 AM
Interesting, after reading comments it seems there is a serious problem w/ the small D and China Mint......        Lots of twists and turns in the Chinese coin market.......   Wish i could see into the future of say 5 yrs to see how this works out for the small D and many other MCC......
As posted earlier the 89 You You gold panda could be a rare bear due to post by David and poconopen.     It may take some time to come to a conclusion about its surviving pop.......many other questions too.....
 
Title: Re: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product
Post by: fwang2450 on May 20, 2017, 11:40:57 AM
For those against the small-D, the "why none existed prior vs many afterward" remains the most convincing point.
Not so fast! Here is a story of some coins surfacing some 20 years after they were struck:

Around 2010, a new version of the cuni Tibet commemorative coin issued in 1985 appeared on the Chinese market, mostly imported from Hong Kong. The finish is different from the typical MS strikes, and the edge is straight instead of rounded like that of business strikes. Many doubted its authenticity, because how come it had never been seen on the market in the 20 some years after it was struck? Moreover, how come it was sold mainly out of Hong Kong? It turned out that the coin was genuine, however. For details, please read my blog article: http://modern-chinese-numismatic-info.blogspot.com/2013/11/unveil-mystery-of-straight-side-old.html

I only need to add that after my blog article, the Hong Kong distributor of the coin fully acknowledged its origin and the mystery is now considered cleared.

So "Why none existed prior" may not be a convincing argument. You have no idea how these coins may have been accidentally hoarded.
Title: Re: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product
Post by: fwang2450 on May 20, 2017, 11:53:30 AM
A scenario I can imagine is that the Mint started out by punching the D on the finished coin. (This has to be proved by microscopic evidence of such punching. But anyone claiming these are fantasy coins with the D punched by a private party has to prove it anyway.) After some were produced, the Mint decided it was not a viable method of mass production, and so switched to engraving the D on the die/hub. The trial strikes were stored in some corner of the Mint vault instead of getting melt. Around 2010, they chanced upon these long forgotten coins and decided to release them to make some money.

:)
Title: Re: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product
Post by: poconopenn on May 20, 2017, 05:29:26 PM
A scenario I can imagine is that the Mint started out by punching the D on the finished coin. (This has to be proved by microscopic evidence of such punching. But anyone claiming these are fantasy coins with the D punched by a private party has to prove it anyway.) After some were produced, the Mint decided it was not a viable method of mass production, and so switched to engraving the D on the die/hub. The trial strikes were stored in some corner of the Mint vault instead of getting melt. Around 2010, they chanced upon these long forgotten coins and decided to release them to make some money.

:)
The chance is very limited, since regular 2001 was made at Shanghai Mint, while 2001 D was made at Shenzhen Mint. Also, it is not cost-effective to introduce additional production step to mint the coin.
Title: Re: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product
Post by: poconopenn on May 20, 2017, 05:35:49 PM
Mr. Zhao in his article also suggests that proof 1987 1/10 oz. without P is “questionable authenticity” and need further research and repeats his statement of 2001 SD as fantasy coin which is not a genuine made by China Mint in the conclusion section of the article.
 
The article was published in China Numismatics Vol. 2, 2017. China Numismatics is owned by the People’s Bank of China and considered as official publication of the bank.

Mr. Zhao had been work in management positions of production, sales and marketing of China Gold Coins Inc. for about 30 years and retired in 2010 as Managing Director of Great Wall Investment of H.K., a division of China Gold Coins Inc. for exporting of  MCC. IMO, he has the ability to access confidential documents which can not be obtained by most experts.
Title: Re: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product
Post by: PandaCollector on May 20, 2017, 05:47:18 PM
SANDAC, with all due respect, that assertion is based on one source, and lots of murky "he said, she said" circumstances. Again, close to 900 photos you examined you found zero small-D (up to that point in time).  Does it make any sense to you that, if someone already had possession of a small-D prior to 2012-2013, none was graded (or discovered)? Of course, it's possible but is it probable?

This has happened before. At one time a large percentage of all the gold 2000 100 Yuan mirror Pandas were in the safe of one person who was unaware of the variety. One day, many years later, he discovered sherts of them piled in the back of a vault and sold most as ordinary 2000 coins. Not everyone, especially back around 2001 when the Panda market was less developed, looked carefully at their coins for varieties.

Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
China Pricepedia
The Gold & Silver Panda Coin Buyer's Guide 3
www.pandacollector.com
Title: Re: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product
Post by: poconopenn on May 20, 2017, 05:52:29 PM
SANDAC,

Please take a cross-up picture of D of your coin, if possible.

I tried to enlarge the D from picture copied from PCGS. The resolution is just not good enough and also too much reflection. I am tried to see if there are any residue of frosty powder left on the mirror surface of D.
Title: Re: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product
Post by: 1668Chris on May 21, 2017, 09:20:31 AM
Something to keep in mind; this is not an official statement from China Gold Coin, China Banknote Printing & Minting, or the People's Bank of China.

Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
China Pricepedia
The Gold & Silver Panda Coin Buyer’s Guide 3
www.pandacollector.com



Poconopenn stated that China Numismatics is publication of Bank of China which would imply this is an official statement.  Which one is it?
Title: Re: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product
Post by: SANDAC on May 21, 2017, 09:35:26 AM
Here are pictures I took this morning of 3685786-032, normal D and 3764927-005, small D.  I tried to focus on the bottom of the "D", so the rest of the surface may be slightly out of focus.
Title: Re: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product
Post by: SANDAC on May 21, 2017, 09:47:12 AM
I can see more details with an inspection microscope at 50x:  I can see the recessed walls of the "D" are frosted for both small D & normal D.  The mirror surface at the bottom of the D have striation marks as well as small blisters (due to chemical etch?) The normal D has more pronounced "blisters" than the small D.

Update: 
When I said the sidewalls of "D" are frosted, I mean the walls are not mirror-like as in the bottom of the "D".  The normal "D" has more noticeable vertical grooves along the sidewalls.  The sidewalls of the small D are quite smooth.

For the normal D, the bottoms of the "D", the "10 Yuan", and the "1 oz Ag .999" all are peppered with roughly same size blisters and the striation marks run the same direction.  For the small D, the blisters are also present in the bottoms of all texts except they are much smaller.  The striation marks run the same direction for "D" and "10 Yuan", but I couldn't find striation marks on "1 oz Ag .999".
Title: Re: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product
Post by: 1668Chris on May 21, 2017, 01:20:32 PM
Mr. Zhao in his article also suggests that proof 1987 1/10 oz. without P is “questionable authenticity” and need further research and repeats his statement of 2001 SD as fantasy coin which is not a genuine made by China Mint in the conclusion section of the article.
 
The article was published in China Numismatics Vol. 2, 2017. China Numismatics is owned by the People’s Bank of China and considered as official publication of the bank.

Mr. Zhao had been work in management positions of production, sales and marketing of China Gold Coins Inc. for about 30 years and retired in 2010 as Managing Director of Great Wall Investment of H.K., a division of China Gold Coins Inc. for exporting of  MCC. IMO, he has the ability to access confidential documents which can not be obtained by most experts.


I think Mr Zhao needs to provide proof and facts as opposed to talking about theories and possibilities.  If he as factual information it should be shared with the MCC community.  It is not helpful or constructive for him to pose this position without providing details. 
Title: Re: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product
Post by: poconopenn on May 21, 2017, 06:02:09 PM
Here are pictures I took this morning of 3685786-032, normal D and 3764927-005, small D.  I tried to focus on the bottom of the "D", so the rest of the surface may be slightly out of focus.

Thanks for the nice pictures. Please also post the pictures of panda side for regular, LD and SD. There is a good chance to identify that 3 small D coins from PCGS pictures posted previously may actually be made from the same production die. Your coin will confirm if this is the case. Thanks again.
Title: Re: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product
Post by: poconopenn on May 21, 2017, 06:46:11 PM
Poconopenn stated that China Numismatics is publication of Bank of China which would imply this is an official statement.  Which one is it?
I think Mr Zhao needs to provide proof and facts as opposed to talking about theories and possibilities.  If he as factual information it should be shared with the MCC community.  It is not helpful or constructive for him to pose this position without providing details. 

China Numismatics is journal for research papers only. The official announcement related to MCC is published at China Gold Coin, a journal published by China Gold Coin Inc. Mr. Zhao did state that he had checked with mint staff and documents. Since this small D version was discovered about 10 years after the issued year and all coins were from an exclusive source, therefore, he concluded the coin is not genuine China Mint product. IMO, he does know the exclusive source, but just does not want to reveal the source in public for legal or privacy reason, similar to Peter will not provide his source of this type information. Frankly, I do not have problem with this article.

Unfortunately, except SANDAC, those members who own this coin have not participated in the discussion and provided the pedigree of their coin. However, I do believe if we can have enough detail pictures of these three versions, we can confirm or reject Mr. Zhao's conclusion in his paper.   
Title: Re: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product
Post by: Kelvin C on May 21, 2017, 10:58:25 PM
"Unfortunately, except SANDAC, those members who own this coin have not participated in the discussion and provided the pedigree of their coin. However, I do believe if we can have enough detail pictures of these three versions, we can confirm or reject Mr. Zhao's conclusion in his paper. "

I own this coin and it was purchased on ebay. After careful review of this and other forum analysis and especially by authentication of NGC and PCGS. I believe it is one of the rarest silver pandas. I would not be alone in this thinking as over 200 have been graded and are out there.

I again would request that the title of your topic be changed as a simple Google of this coin screams not genuine right away.  Still without definitive proof.

Years ago there was much discussing on these forms about this coin. You or any one could have purchased one for several hundred dollar. Checked it. Graded it and listed back to the market if you were uncomfortable. Keydatepanda touches on the fact that he purchased a sheet for a client of his.

At present this forum is still trying to establish that this coin is not genuine. As of this date it is still not confirmed un-genuine by the Mint, NGC, PCGS. Its authentication has been questioned by Mr. Zhao.

You have now given a small insight into Mr. Zhao. You have mentioned that he is retired. Is he actually retired?

I ask. Is Mr. Zhao currently employed by the China Mint, The Peoples Bank of China, China Gold Coin inc, Great Wall Investments HK or other companies related to these organizations? Does Mr. Zhao sit on the board of any of these companies that would perhaps entitle him to [u]"access confidential documents which can not be obtained by most experts."[/u] etc?

A small note but why does Mr. Zhao feel the need to Repeat what he stated earlier in his article?
“Mr. Zhao in his article also suggests that proof 1987 1/10 oz. without P is “questionable authenticity” and need further research and repeats his statement of 2001 SD as fantasy coin which is not a genuine made by China Mint in the conclusion section of the article.
 
The article was published in China Numismatics Vol. 2, 2017. China Numismatics is owned by the People’s Bank of China and considered as official publication of the bank.

Mr. Zhao had been work in management positions of production, sales and marketing of China Gold Coins Inc. for about 30 years and retired in 2010 as Managing Director of Great Wall Investment of H.K., a division of China Gold Coins Inc. for exporting of  MCC. IMO, he has the ability to access confidential documents which can not be obtained by most experts..”

Mr Zhao should have provided indisputable facts to back up his opinion. The market is ripe for gossip and rumor. If Mr Zhao is in fact retired and his position/job is not under threat. He is at liberty to make more and more accusations without evidence in the future.  Does he have intention? He waited a long time to investigate this. I don't know. But this forum title should change topic title until there is indisputable evidence.
Title: Re: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product
Post by: pandamonium on May 22, 2017, 07:47:31 AM
If "Mr Zhao has access to confidential documents which cannot be obtained by most experts", then he is a top priority to contact.    Can we invite him to be a forum member?    Can a member here keep in contact w/ him and translate information?     Is he willing to produce a monthly letter about MCC that we can subscribe to?      Is it possible to access the information he knows or can obtain?.....
Title: Re: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product
Post by: SANDAC on May 22, 2017, 08:22:23 AM
Photos of 2001D LD, 3685786-032
Title: Re: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product
Post by: SANDAC on May 22, 2017, 08:26:13 AM
Photos of small D, 3764927-005
Please note that this coin has a die marking that's different than most small-D.  It is a small dot under the character "people" on the temple side as documented here:
http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=2193.msg48699#msg48699
Title: Re: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product
Post by: poconopenn on May 22, 2017, 08:59:18 PM
Photos of small D, 3764927-005
Please note that this coin has a die marking that's different than most small-D.  It is a small dot under the character "people" on the temple side as documented here:
http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=2193.msg48699#msg48699


SANDAC, thanks for nice pictures.

The picture of SANDAC’s coin confirm that his coin was minted with the same production die used in minting the three PCGS graded coin posted previously (Reply #39). As shown in the attached pictures, these four coins has a scratched line at the same position. Two submissions, NGC 3649454-001-010 (6/10 are MS70) and 4289022-011-032 (3/21 are MS70), based on pictures at NGC website, also show the same scratched line.

One recently graded (4443698-001) coin, which currently listed at eBay, does not show the scratched line, but has a wider mirror band as marked in the attached picture. This need further research to confirm if there is a new version of SD or just optic illusion.  NGC has locked me out to use its verification site to check this invoice # at this moment. Apparently, NGC does not like anybody to use its site for research. I was locked out after 15 minutes and needed to wait for 6 hours to be able to look the picture again. This happened twice yesterday.

Title: Re: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product
Post by: Hippanda on May 22, 2017, 11:08:20 PM
Sharp eyes catching that common scratch, Poconopenn!
Some of the earlier posted pics also seems to suggest wider mirror band - would be interesting to see if this is possibly just a frosting variation?

See SANDAC's  GIF overlay Large D/ Small D

http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=2193.0
Title: Re: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product
Post by: Kelvin C on May 23, 2017, 03:33:31 AM
Thank you SANDAC for your extensive research and time devoted to a coin that has received much scrutiny of the years.
It was interesting reading through the old link posted from 2011. Few things stand out to me.

Aside from the boasting that goes on when one has something others don't know much about.  The early holders of this coin did appear somewhat forthcoming in providing information and pictures about this coin.
Reference in these posts are made to Mr. Peter Anthony's first addition of Gold & silver Panda coins buyer guide the size difference of the D. Perhaps Mr. Peter can remember if his pictures are from his stock and when they may have been photographed?

This quote here: Quote from: poconopenn on December 09, 2012, 05:08:38 PM

IMO, both NGC graded 2001 D small D coins are genuine.  With further research, this version may not be uncommon inside China.
 
Attached are pictures which will allow you to make a quick check of large and small D.
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Aside from this informative old post and touching on the fact that NGC acknowledge and began grading these with Small D labeled sometime in 2012 and PCGS accrediting them sometime later in 2013?

If one searches through the archives of NGC news they find extensive articles on counterfeiting and altering coins. NGC posts an article where they specifically relate to the 2001 China silver Panda in 2007.

A conclusion can be reached that establishes the fact NGC would closely scrutinize the 2001 D coin if any future varieties were to come forth.

Further an article related to the posted 12/12/2012 on the goldfish and pagoda sets finishes with this statement.
“After careful research including consultation with several Chinese mints, NGC acknowledges that all four metal types were officially minted. As a result, NGC will now accept all four metal types for certification.”

I know a rep from PCGS had posted here in the past. Perhaps someone from these companies can provide information on their grading of this coin.



Title: Re: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product
Post by: geoxxx on May 23, 2017, 09:08:24 AM
I find it difficult to fathom that the 2001 small D would be fake after all of the PCGS and NGC certifications.
Until we are absolutely certain, I think the title of this feed should be changed before people start making unfounded claims.
Title: Re: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product
Post by: pandamonium on May 23, 2017, 07:28:45 PM
I contacted a NGC employee and they are sticking to their grading conclusions....I do not own any 2001 small D silver pandas, just curious to hear NGC's side of the coin.......

On another note, i get contacts from several collectors about many Chinese that could be fakes.    Graders have the gun that can determine metal content, micro scopes and who knows what else.     Graders have made mistakes but i side w/ them as their technology gets better and they get wiser.    For the most part NGC does a lot of research before grading so for me i am comfortable w/ them......
Title: Re: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product
Post by: silverstar1 on May 23, 2017, 11:21:04 PM
I will chime in here to help maybe clarify a few things. These were first purchased by myself and a few others in 2012 from a very reliable dealer from China with the highest integrity . They were purchased in mint sealed sheets of 10 from shenzhen guabao, they were purchased as regular issue 2001 d pandas. After being submitted to NGC for grading they were designated a small d variety which opened up the whole conversation which I originally posted on silverstackers .  So if these were not a genuine mint product or fantasy coin as indicated by the article someone would have had to have access to the original 2001 mint dies ( or be extremely talented in producing exact replicas)  , have a private mint produce them adding a smaller d , seal them in original shenzhen sheets and capsules only to sell them as regular issue 2001 d pandas years later ?? is it possible yes but I dont see any possible motive for all that work for nothing other than to create confusion because there was no monetary gain in selling them as regular issue 2001 d pandas.
The best theory I can accept and may have been mentioned in the original thread or in private to me is that for some reason the mint did either a small run or full run of these and someone decided the D needed to be larger  and the run was to be melted , for some reason the run was not melted or most were and some were kept and maybe sold to someone who kept them for some time and then sold them as regular issue 2001 d pandas.
One note too is in the original thread post 36 joeman states that he bought 2 sheets of the small d variety from Peking in 2003, if I am reading that correctly then these were probably minted at the same time as the original 2001 d . Also interesting as mentioned that these all tend to be very nice coins that grade very high indicating they were first strike type coins .
I think after Sandacs microscopic analysis of the D in both large and small it seems that the minting process seems to be fairly identical if i am understanding it correctly.
Personally I agree that the thread title should be changed as it would read to most that this is a fact that it is not a genuine issue coin and I would say this article is far from conclusive . I think it is highly irresponsible to title the thread as such especially by someone who is looked so highly upon by many Chinese coin collectors and CCF members.
I look foreword to any more evidence that may come to light on this mysterious coin . For now I am holding my opinion that this is an extremely rare silver panda variety and will probably be clouded in mystery for many years to come if not eternally......
Title: Re: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product
Post by: geoxxx on May 24, 2017, 05:21:25 AM
Well said !
Title: Re: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product
Post by: PandaCollector on May 25, 2017, 09:33:01 PM
The origins of some coins are so fantastic that they could never be guessed in a thousand years. And there is absolutely no documentation except insiders' recollections to explain it (some of these accounts can be found in the latest Panda book). If it is true that sheets were sold long ago at the same price as the Large D varieties, it may take an eyewitness account to straighten the story out. I, for one, am inclined to give the benefit of the doubt to authenticity unless and until some proof to the contrary is offered.

I also have had the opportunity to see how carefully NGC (and I am sure PCGS) scrutinizes new varieties for authenticity. That certainly rules out that the coins themselves are counterfeit and I will be very surprised if they missed a bogus mark.

I acknowledge that it is not always possible to reveal sources of information. Without something concrete, however, it is not possible to be 100% certain about the issues raised.

Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
China Pricepedia
The Gold & Silver Panda Coin Buyer’s Guide 3
www.pandacollector.com
Title: Re: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product
Post by: poconopenn on May 25, 2017, 10:25:35 PM
I have examined 79 NGC graded 2001 SD (about 40% of graded) and all have the same scratched line as shown in Reply #67. The picture of 4443698-001 posted at eBay can not see the scratched line, but it is clearly shown at NGC website. The wider mirror band mentioned in the same Reply appear to be typical for small D version. After close examine the picture of coin posted by SANDAC, the reflection at the tip of the mirror band had masked the mirror surface, and made the mirror band narrowed than the actual size.

There is another common feature of small D version; the lack of 3-dimensional details of fur at the frosty area of shoulder as shown in the attached pictures.

I will be appreciated very much if any member of CCF who has small D version without scratched line as shown in Reply #67 or with some 3-dimensional details of fur at shoulder area, can provide me with the NGC certified # via PM

All world mints produce coin with multiple stations and then collect coin to the packing area and China Mint does the same. All sheet packed by China Mint will have coins made from different dies from different stations. It is very odd to have sheet made with coins from the same production die. This 2001 SD version appears to have the coins made from the same production die and being packed in the same sheet.
Title: Re: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product
Post by: 1668Chris on May 26, 2017, 05:01:31 AM


I also have had the opportunity to see how carefully NGC (and I am sure PCGS) scrutinizes new varieties for authenticity. That certainly rules out that the coins themselves are counterfeit and I will be very surprised if they missed a bogus mark

Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
China Pricepedia
The Gold & Silver Panda Coin Buyer’s Guide 3
www.pandacollector.com

Out of curiosity, then why did you exclude the "1987 missing mint mark" and the "1992 high 2" from your new book?
Title: Re: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product
Post by: ancuctcn on May 26, 2017, 06:32:25 AM
"There is another common feature of small D version; the lack of 3-dimensional details of fur at the frosty area of shoulder as shown in the attached pictures."

Looking at my 2001 Large D I notice lack of details and frosted look around shoulder and collar. I have 12 Large D

Nice pictures. Also notice the ear on large D picture B (2nd one) looks different from the others. Any idea or just me?
Title: Re: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product
Post by: PandaCollector on May 26, 2017, 08:58:55 AM
Out of curiosity, then why did you exclude the "1987 missing mint mark" and the "1992 high 2" from your new book?

Look on page 329

Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
China Pricepedia
The Gold & Silver Panda Coin Buyer’s Guide 3
www.pandacollector.com
Title: Re: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product
Post by: jc888888888 on May 27, 2017, 07:45:20 AM
So I can put this silliness to bed in about three sentences, this Chinese guy Zoah ,Zu or whatever the heck his name is ....is a crackpot  WHAT NO ONE HAS MENTIONED in this 6 page ramble is one indisputable fact ..........  I was one of the first persons to have the small D in my hand ,And if anyone takes the time to look at my original post AND PICTURES ,all these small d coins and everyone that I have seen in an ungraded state ..... CAME IN UNDENIABLY GENUINE ORIGINAL CHINA MINT  PACKAGING THE FIRST 100 COINS FOUND WHERE ALL IN TEN COUNT SHEETS and the ones I owned where 10 ct SHEETS  ...... So what I hear folks saying is some private mint either obtained GENUINE MINT PACKING and sealed these coins inside it....??? you believe that I have a bridge I want to sell you:) Please the authenticity of this coin is undeniable ..     
Title: Re: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product
Post by: jc888888888 on May 27, 2017, 07:52:41 AM
one more and im done  :) My coins where all sent to NGC in the original mint packaging  ......:)    and the person who submitted the first coins to NGC sent them in OMP ,keep in mind NGC made this discovery  ...not someone with a high res camera and a lot of time on their hands.....
Title: Re: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product
Post by: jc888888888 on May 27, 2017, 08:03:55 AM
001.JPG (726.54 kB, 1600x1200 - viewed 255 times.)
Title: Re: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product
Post by: jc888888888 on May 27, 2017, 08:23:43 AM
go back to the start from Mr. Sandac links and look at the pictures of undeniable genuine mint packaging with COA slips and tell me that someone forged this packaging,or stole it from the mint , to produce a variety of a coin that was found totally BY ACCIDENT  ,by NGC and submitted by several in OMP upstanding members who SUBMITTED THE COINS AS LARGE D,who bought them as large D ,in fact if my memory serves me right ..the first sheet I submitted was graded as Large D ,,NO ONE WHO submitted these coins initially INCLUDING MYSELF  even knew what they had ..... this was a hoard  plain and simple .... of a mint error  or whatever you want to call it... but it is undeniably a China Mint issue
Why would someone who wanted to perpetuate a fraud sell the coins in full sheets EVEN IF YOU BELIEVE THEY ARE A FRAUD .... TO GUYS LIKE ME FOR $50 A POP  and hope and pray NGC discovers them by accident:)  thats a real money maker isn't it:)  come on people TOTAL FOOLISHNESS!!no one new what they where and they are genuine plain and simple   Again I stand by my statement all coins I had where in 100% undeniablY IN GENUINE omp
Title: Re: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product
Post by: jc888888888 on May 27, 2017, 08:33:40 AM
ANYONE : who feels they are holding fake or fantasy NGC or pcgs graded fakes :) or OMP  and wants to limit there losses PLEASE PM ME , I will purchase everyone to ease any members pain and limit their losses Regard,s Joe
Title: Re: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product
Post by: jc888888888 on May 27, 2017, 08:47:30 AM
As far as I am concerned this board should do the responsible thing a pull the title of this thread down ....it is totally unsubstantiated HOGWASH!
FULL DISCLOSURE : I have no financial interest in my statements, I currently have  4 or 5 graded coins in my collection(  ,I traded or sold others years ago ...... these 4 or 5 coins I currently own probably represent a lot less than 1/100th of 1% of my total collection IF THAT .. SO IF THE COIN VALUE went to melt it is a couple of decent dinners for me and my Family:)
Title: Re: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product
Post by: jc888888888 on May 27, 2017, 02:45:18 PM
I will chime in here to help maybe clarify a few things. These were first purchased by myself and a few others in 2012 from a very reliable dealer from China with the highest integrity . They were purchased in mint sealed sheets of 10 from shenzhen guabao, they were purchased as regular issue 2001 d pandas. After being submitted to NGC for grading they were designated a small d variety which opened up the whole conversation which I originally posted on silverstackers .  So if these were not a genuine mint product or fantasy coin as indicated by the article someone would have had to have access to the original 2001 mint dies ( or be extremely talented in producing exact replicas)  , have a private mint produce them adding a smaller d , seal them in original shenzhen sheets and capsules only to sell them as regular issue 2001 d pandas years later ?? is it possible yes but I dont see any possible motive for all that work for nothing other than to create confusion because there was no monetary gain in selling them as regular issue 2001 d pandas.
The best theory I can accept and may have been mentioned in the original thread or in private to me is that for some reason the mint did either a small run or full run of these and someone decided the D needed to be larger  and the run was to be melted , for some reason the run was not melted or most were and some were kept and maybe sold to someone who kept them for some time and then sold them as regular issue 2001 d pandas.
One note too is in the original thread post 36 joeman states that he bought 2 sheets of the small d variety from Peking in 2003, if I am reading that correctly then these were probably minted at the same time as the original 2001 d . Also interesting as mentioned that these all tend to be very nice coins that grade very high indicating they were first strike type coins .
I think after Sandacs microscopic analysis of the D in both large and small it seems that the minting process seems to be fairly identical if i am understanding it correctly.
Personally I agree that the thread title should be changed as it would read to most that this is a fact that it is not a genuine issue coin and I would say this article is far from conclusive . I think it is highly irresponsible to title the thread as such especially by someone who is looked so highly upon by many Chinese coin collectors and CCF members.
I look foreword to any more evidence that may come to light on this mysterious coin . For now I am holding my opinion that this is an extremely rare silver panda variety and will probably be clouded in mystery for many years to come if not eternally......


Hi Silverstar, :)   Just a little clarity  :)   You my friend are the discoverer of the small D ...so be it by accident ..but you are:) ( you by submitting them to ngc )  when I have time I will PM you and explain how our mutual dealer friend (who you got your coins from) and I got the coins  but as I said they where bought from a collector who had them in his safe since 2003 .... the dealer and I acquired the coins at almost the same time from the same person (mutual friend)... I submitted mine shortly before you did the first sheet I submitted came back large D< I actually sold some as large D,s:) some lucky customers ..then you submitted yours and the fireworks went off  when NGC designated your sheet the small D .... the dealer you bought them from never profited from these small D,s he flipped them quickly as common inventory before the discovery ..Another member here who will remain nameless bought 3 or 4 sheets from the dealer you bought from ... the same dealer you bought from had apx 8 or 9 sheets which he sold all in OMP before the discovery   NO ONE BUT NO ONE thought these coins where anything but regular 2001D until you submitted yours ...... so THERE YOU GO IMAGINE THAT  no Russian conspiracy  theory or nothing LOL   There is another person looking at this thread  who could easily collaborate what I have just said .... that is up to him or her:)
Title: Re: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product
Post by: poconopenn on May 27, 2017, 05:29:00 PM
I can see more details with an inspection microscope at 50x:  I can see the recessed walls of the "D" are frosted for both small D & normal D.  The mirror surface at the bottom of the D have striation marks as well as small blisters (due to chemical etch?) The normal D has more pronounced "blisters" than the small D.


SANDAC.

I need another favor from you. Please examine the mirror surface of the coins, if possible take the picture, to see if you can see the mirror surface is similar to the observation at the bottom of D as mentioned in your post, "The normal D has more pronounced "blisters" than the small D". In other words, which version shows a rougher surface? Thanks for your help.

 
Title: Re: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product
Post by: jc888888888 on May 27, 2017, 06:53:00 PM
Snowball ..do we allow threads like this with that title to remain up on a reputable board like this one ....my opinion is this:  innuendo and rumors or the postings of some Chinese guy about a coin with ZERO BASIS OF FACT are ridiculous  , I am all for a lively discussion  but when someone post a thread with this heading: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product.... WITH NO PROOF, after 2 of the most prominent grading companies certifying the coins authenticity  ,  is someone trying to create a buying opportunity here??  another pagoda??   this board is read by  a lot of collectors............   
Title: Re: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product
Post by: pandamonium on May 27, 2017, 06:58:07 PM
As i posted, NGC stands by their grading of the small D.     Yes, there are buyers of the small D as they wait for holders to sell for a good price but that will probably not happen now.     On the other hand, it is always good to debate and hopefully learn something new.....next topic?.....
Title: Re: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product
Post by: Sandspanda on May 27, 2017, 09:55:22 PM
We purchased the small d in China years back 09-10. Price was 550 Yuan.
Title: Re: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product
Post by: SANDAC on May 28, 2017, 02:29:10 PM
I like to comment on the title of this thread that several members are unhappy with:  Yes, the statement is harsh & definitive, but it is the English summary of the Chinese article that poconopenn referenced to in the original post.  I appreciate the fact that poconopenn takes the time to read coin forums in China and posts relevant topics on CCF.   I read the Chinese article and IMO the article did not provide sufficient details to support the author's harsh, definitive conclusion.    However, I wouldn't dismissed it out of hand because based on the readers feedback, it is not an unpopular sentiments in China toward the 2001 small D.  At the time its discovery the Chinese collectors did not place high value in varieties so sheets and sheets of small D were sold to high bidders oversea.  Now the Chinese collectors find small D scarce and expensive and no one in China seems to have the first hand knowledge of its discovery, so questions are raised about its authenticity.

In fact, the people with first hand knowledge of the small D's discovery are members of CCF.  The discovery was well documented here.  We are in better position to inform the collectors in China about the pedigree of this variety and we should.   We should also examine the coin in great details and document our findings.  Lets show our collector friends in China how we address the issues of authenticity through detailed studies and careful documentations.

Last point, the vast majority of 2001 small D are certified by NGC and PCGS.  NGC/PCGS certifications are not just opinions of competent experts, they also carry a money-back guarantee.  There are no downside to asking critical questions and examining the coin in great details--if it is proven to be a fake, we can get our money back, and if it clears away the rumors and doubts, then the price of the coin will only go up.  I'm looking forward to work with poconopenn on technical investigations of the small D.
Title: Re: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product
Post by: dynamike51 on May 28, 2017, 03:06:57 PM
I like to comment on the title of this thread that several members are unhappy with:  Yes, the statement is harsh & definitive, but it is the English summary of the Chinese article that poconopenn referenced to in the original post.  I appreciate the fact that poconopenn takes the time to read coin forums in China and posts relevant topics on CCF.   I read the Chinese article and IMO the article did not provide sufficient details to support the author's harsh, definitive conclusion.    However, I wouldn't dismissed it out of hand because based on the readers feedback, it is not an unpopular sentiments in China toward the 2001 small D.  At the time its discovery the Chinese collectors did not place high value in varieties so sheets and sheets of small D were sold to high bidders oversea.  Now the Chinese collectors find small D scarce and expensive and no one in China seems to have the first hand knowledge of its discovery, so questions are raised about its authenticity.

In fact, the people with first hand knowledge of the small D's discovery are members of CCF.  The discovery was well documented here.  We are in better position to inform the collectors in China about the pedigree of this variety and we should.   We should also examine the coin in great details and document our findings.  Lets show our collector friends in China how we address the issues of authenticity through detailed studies and careful documentations.

Last point, the vast majority of 2001 small D are certified by NGC and PCGS.  NGC/PCGS certifications are not just opinions of competent experts, they also carry a money-back guarantee.  There are no downside to asking critical questions and examining the coin in great details--if it is proven to be a fake, we can get our money back, and if it clears away the rumors and doubts, then the price of the coin will only go up.  I'm looking forward to work with poconopenn on technical investigations of the small D.

SANDAC,  that's a very fair and accurate assessment of this dubious situation - something I can totally agree with. +1
Title: Re: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product
Post by: SANDAC on May 28, 2017, 04:00:58 PM
There are three areas of mirrored recessed texts on the panda side, the "D", "10 yuan" and Ag .999".  My camera is not absolutely level w.r.t. to the coin so I need to focus each area separately.  Here are the close up of the recessed texts of NGC3685786-032, large D.  The focus is on the bottom mirrored surface.  The "blisters" are particularly noticeable on the "10 yuan" and can be found on "D" and to a lesser extend on "Ag .999".  Please note the same size blisters are also present all over the rest of the coin, particularly noticeable above the "yuan" character.   No such blisters are present on the temple size of the large D.
Title: Re: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product
Post by: SANDAC on May 28, 2017, 04:04:15 PM
Here are the same 3 areas of small D, NGC3764927-005.  The mirrored bottoms are quite smooth for all three areas.  There are tiny speckles present in all three areas but discernible only with high magnification and I'm not able to photograph them clearly.
Title: Re: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product
Post by: poconopenn on May 28, 2017, 04:25:39 PM
SANDAC,

Sorry, I did not post clearly about the location of mirror surface needed to be examined. I am looking for the mirror surface at the temple side.

I noticed the possible striations on the temple side for SD, but not LD, as attached pictures. I need confirmation from you.
Title: Re: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product
Post by: SANDAC on May 28, 2017, 04:56:52 PM
Looking at the mirrored field surrounding the temple with inspection microscope at 20x, I can not find striation lines on either LD or SD.  The striation lines (which is due to wiping die with rags) should be a group of fine, parallel lines.  Tilting the coins around I can see a few fine lines for both coins, but these lines are oriented in random directions. 
Title: Re: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product
Post by: poconopenn on May 28, 2017, 05:05:10 PM
Shenzhen mint started its operation in 1996 and had received ISO certificate at the same time. Therefore, it has to follow the ISO requirement to keep all production and quality control records. Mr. Zhao was appointed to be the first Manage Director of Great Wall Investment of H.K. in 1993 and retired in 2010. IMO, he definitely has the privilege to examine the production records even after his retirement from the position. The data in his book (Analysis of the market for contemporary precious metal coins in China) for annual usage of gold and silver by mint can not be obtained unless you are the Sr. Executive of China Gold Coin Inc. Mr. Zhao is the most knowledgeable person in MCC and his article, which published in the journey which the People's Bank of China is the publisher, can not be considered as innuendo and rumors.

It will be very helpful, if representative of NGC can post here and provide the background information about the circumstance of recognizing this SD version. Have NGC ever consulted with China Mint in this instant?
Title: Re: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product
Post by: poconopenn on May 28, 2017, 05:08:18 PM
Looking at the mirrored field surrounding the temple with inspection microscope at 20x, I can not find striation lines on either LD or SD.  The striation lines (which is due to wiping die with rags) should be a group of fine, parallel lines.  Tilting the coins around I can see a few fine lines for both coins, but these lines are oriented in random directions. 


Thanks. The lines shown on the photos must be the scratched line on the NGC holder.
Title: Re: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product
Post by: Kelvin C on May 29, 2017, 03:54:44 AM
popconopenn: Please answer yes or no.

1) At present,  can you state categorically that the 2001 Silver Panda coin (Small D) is “not genuine”?

2) To date, do you agree that Mr. Zhao has proved without shadow of doubt that the 2001 Silver Panda (Small D) coin is “not genuine”?

I disagree topic title should remain. It is setting a bad precedent for future posts.

While I and sure other agree that discussion and analysis is benefit. Conclusions should not be made before evidence and proof has been put forward.

Although obviously highly knowledge about MCC. I would question whether he is the most knowledgeable. There are others in China with high knowledge of MCC but not wishing to come into the spotlight by sell books and write paper. No other has stated publicly the coin not genuine.

Although giving his positions this and that, if Mr. Zhao had to visit the Mint to investigate. That would indicate that he was not present during the minting of this coin or perhaps importantly the large d also.

I have contact several mints worldwide searching for more information on rare coin and many time their records are far from up to date or reliable. Many people retire, no accurate computer records etc. Look at the Krause book is filled with error and either they make their figure up or possible the mint provide the wrong information.

I understand you and other willingness to explore this panda. However, unlike you I pay over 1000 dollar on ebay for my investment. I am not happy that the title states publicly the coin is not genuine when that conclusion has not been reached.

Title: Re: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product
Post by: jc888888888 on May 29, 2017, 07:10:05 AM
+1
Title: Re: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product
Post by: KeepOnTrying! on May 29, 2017, 04:21:50 PM
I have followed this discussion although I don't have a horse in the race. I am bewildered by the resistance to a simple enquiry. Is it better for collectors to buy coins of unproven provenance? I don't see a threat to this coin's long term value if it is genuine. IMO!
Title: Re: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product
Post by: jc888888888 on May 29, 2017, 04:57:36 PM
 It is about totally  unsubstantiated claims that have no basis of fact  plain and simple some guy that hardly anyone even knows says the coin is a fake it and it affects people's perseption  after two of the most reputable grading companies agree that the coin is genuine and that a coin board of the stature allows that thread title to remain posted and you have no problem with that?
Title: Re: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product
Post by: KeepOnTrying! on May 29, 2017, 10:54:34 PM
The title of this thread is: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product. Putting "genuine" in parenthesis tells any casual reader that this is not a done deal and leaves room for discovery as is happening in this thread. Definitive resolution of this issue may or may not occur in this thread, now and here. But I am okay with the history (of this coin) that I am reading and attempts at comparative analysis of the physical properties of the coins.
Title: Re: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product
Post by: geoxxx on May 30, 2017, 02:53:43 AM
The proper way of phrasing the title to this thread would be: "Is the 2001 small D 1 oz silver panda a genuine China Mint product ?". (with a question mark)
It is the definitive "NOT" that is troublesome regardless of whether "genuine" is in quotes or not.

I think we all understand proper English and current thread title is quite "misleading"
It comes across as an assertion and not a question....and it is quite this point that is troubling many readers.
Title: Re: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product
Post by: Mirkkanen on May 30, 2017, 05:02:56 PM
The proper way of phrasing the title to this thread would be: "Is the 2001 small D 1 oz silver panda a genuine China Mint product ?". (with a question mark)
It is the definitive "NOT" that is troublesome regardless of whether "genuine" is in quotes or not.

This thread has transformed from one respected CCF member (poconopenn) relaying prudent information about "small D" to our community to a careful study of whether certain assertions about "small D" can be proven or verifiable. I don't know whether there is a PROPER way to title the thread, however, we could definitely consider changing it to something mentioning an EXAMINATION of properties of "small D" to determine genuineness.

I think we all understand proper English and current thread title is quite "misleading"
It comes across as an assertion and not a question....and it is quite this point that is troubling many readers.

It should be pointed out that the assertion in question is only troublesome to owners of the coin. I am not troubled by the title because I have no skin in the game. I can understand how those who own the coin would be concerned.
Title: Re: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product
Post by: Mirkkanen on May 30, 2017, 05:04:16 PM
One question is, are current "small D" owners more concerned with discovering the truth about this coin, or with protecting the value of their investment(s)?
Title: Re: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product
Post by: poconopenn on May 30, 2017, 09:54:07 PM
Silverstar1,

Please provide information about you successful efforts in obtaining the recognizing of small D from NGC. What type of documents required to convince NGC to recognize the new variety? How long to take NGC  to accept your request? Your help to clarify the process will be very appreciated.

The small D version was discovered in later 2012. Prior to December 2012, they were 13 small D graded as regular D by NGC. They are 2780136-046, -047, 2779181-019 and 2780533-021-030. Based on the Invoice#, they were graded not too long before your 8 coins being graded as small D.

There are clear evidence to suggest that 2001-D gold panda has high D and low D versions in all denominations. Members of CCF had shown data that NGC had graded those varieties as regular 2001 D many years before 2012. The ratio of high D and low D is about 3 to 1. To this date, NGC has not recognized those varieties.

Owners of 2001 small D,

It is time for you to take proactive action. Since both NGC and PCGS have money-back guarantee, you can request both companies to review this coin’s authenticity with a link of this thread. This will force NGC and PCGS to contact the author of this article and resolve the issue. If this coin is not genuine, you will be compensated by NGC or PCGS, or if this coin is genuine, the price will go up in the future.
Title: Re: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product
Post by: Kelvin C on May 30, 2017, 10:27:51 PM
PCGS Now Grading Modern Coins Year-Round In Mainland China and Adding Reference Numbers
October 30, 2013

PCGS also was the first to certify in China one of the first 200 of the new 2014 China silver Panda coins struck at the Shenzhen Guobao Mint on October 11, 2013. It was presented by mint officials as a gift to Ms. Muriel Eymery, PCGS Vice President of International Business Development, who was present at the striking ceremony. On October 13, less than 48 hours after it was presented, the beautiful coin was certified at the PCGS Shanghai Submission Center as First Strike, PCGS MS 69 Secure.
The designer of the 2014 silver Panda, Mr. Rocky Zhou, met Eymery and PCGS Co-Founder and Collectors Universe, Inc. President, Mr. David Hall, while they were in Beijing.
The important expansion to year-round grading services in China underscores the increasing demand for PCGS-certified coins there, according to Mr. Don Willis, PCGS President.”
Coins conveniently can be submitted in mainland China at the PCGS Submission Centers in Beijing, Guangzhou and Shanghai in person or by mail, or submitted through a network of more than 80 PCGS Authorized Dealers in mainland China (http://www.PCGS.com.cn/dealers).

{Look at this list of 80 Dealers!!} It is staggering. I should have pasted it here but didnt wish it to take away a full page}.
Over 5+ years and not one authorized dealers raised any questions challenging the grading of a coin?

I fully understand the inquiry into this coin and this is to show the contact between Mint and PCGS
Title: Re: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product
Post by: jc888888888 on May 31, 2017, 08:48:06 AM
Apparently we are not reading the previous post! ......  I do not like to speak for Silverstar  but here are the facts Silverstar DID NOT SUBMIT ANY PAPERWORK , he did not  submit the coins to NGC as small D He submitted the coins as large D AND one more time here!   NGC MADE THE DISCOVERY ON THEIR OWN WITHOUT ANYONE PROMPTING THEM TO DO SO, I am sure Peter Anthony can verify this. Again the small D was discovered by NGC  none of the early submitter s had anything to do with it .  The coins that where graded as large D but where in fact small D where the ones I personally submitted bright before silverstar submitted his and the discovery was made .
T
Title: Re: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product
Post by: jc888888888 on May 31, 2017, 08:59:36 AM
Silverstar1,

Please provide information about you successful efforts in obtaining the recognizing of small D from NGC. What type of documents required to convince NGC to recognize the new variety? How long to take NGC  to accept your request? Your help to clarify the process will be very appreciated.

The small D version was discovered in later 2012. Prior to December 2012, they were 13 small D graded as regular D by NGC. They are 2780136-046, -047, 2779181-019 and 2780533-021-030. Based on the Invoice#, they were graded not too long before your 8 coins being graded as small D.

There are clear evidence to suggest that 2001-D gold panda has high D and low D versions in all denominations. Members of CCF had shown data that NGC had graded those varieties as regular 2001 D many years before 2012. The ratio of high D and low D is about 3 to 1. To this date, NGC has not recognized those varieties.

Owners of 2001 small D,

It is time for you to take proactive action. Since both NGC and PCGS have money-back guarantee, you can request both companies to review this coin’s authenticity with a link of this thread. This will force NGC and PCGS to contact the author of this article and resolve the issue. If this coin is not genuine, you will be compensated by NGC or PCGS, or if this coin is genuine, the price will go up in the future.


Apparently we are not reading the previous post! ......  I do not like to speak for Silverstar  but here are the facts Silverstar DID NOT SUBMIT ANY PAPERWORK , he did not  submit the coins to NGC as small D He submitted the coins as large D AND one more time here!   NGC MADE THE DISCOVERY ON THEIR OWN WITHOUT ANYONE PROMPTING THEM TO DO SO, I am sure Peter Anthony can verify this. Again the small D was discovered by NGC  none of the early submitter s had anything to do with it .  The coins that where graded as large D but where in fact small D where the ones I personally submitted bright before silverstar submitted his and the discovery was made .

The small D coin is legitimate I have called NGC and they where 100% standing behind the authenticity of this coin ,,,,They in fact implied that the author of that blog or whatever you want to call it "quite possibly has an axe to grind "  Also if you read carefully thru every post  Peter Anthony subliminally suggest the possibility of the same thing

Now here is the big question:)  I have briefly looked at  a whole treasure trove of micro enlarged pictures of sections of the coin posted here they dont remotely even suggest anything IMHO , here is the question that no one WANTS TO ANSWER OR IS INCAPABLE OF RESPONDING TO : all photos of these coins in OMP state UNDENIABLY ARE IN 100% GENUINE SHENZHEN ORIGINAL MINT PACKAGING  ...... so anyone want to take a crack at how these forgerys got into that OMP   ....lets see what we dream up now:)   
Title: Re: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product
Post by: jc888888888 on May 31, 2017, 09:45:47 AM
One question is, are current "small D" owners more concerned with discovering the truth about this coin, or with protecting the value of their investment(s)?

SO , I will only speak for myself  and answer your question sir .....you are a buyer and re seller of coins so you should be able to comprehend this .. I have 4 or 5 graded small D in my collection as I stated before it is a minuscule dollar amount of my total collection .............  FULL DISCLOSURE : I had 2 sheets my cost basis in the coins with grading was somewhere around $100 a coin (they where bought as large d as previously stated)   I sold or traded 14 or so for anywhere between $600 to $1000 per coin . I HAVE NOT SOLD A SMALL d in at least 18 month,s most probably 2 years ..... so as you can see I am not worried at all about these coins...   here is the TRUTH this person who posted something on a blog saying these coins are fakes has not provided ONE shred of evidence ,MY POSITION IN DEFENDING this coin has ZERO to do with money I SIMPLY KNOW FIRST HAND THE TRUE FACTS .. is it some folks on this board like drama ??   Look back on the Badon era of this coin board and remember the damage done here when innuendo ,statements with no factual basis , possible manipulation of the market and the list goes on and on  was taking place .... those where dark days for this forum.... I could flip and pose the same question to you : is someone trying to create a falsehood about a coin for financial gain??   I personally dont think so: but your question is as offensive ...... and the end of the day 2 of the most prestigious coin grading companies say the coin is legitimate and no one can come up with anything that remotely resembles any kind of proof ..it is just annoying to me     
Title: Re: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product
Post by: Mirkkanen on May 31, 2017, 12:25:12 PM
Fair enough. I guess it is understandable that the holders of this coin are frustrated with this thread since they have skin in the game. Since I do not own any large D or small D coins, I'm simply a bystander who's enjoying the back and forth. I should probably go back and read some of the initial posts in this thread to determine why poconopenn has so much confidence in the guy who wrote this article. Nobody else seems to.
Title: Re: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product
Post by: KeyDate1/2ozPandas on May 31, 2017, 02:05:55 PM
All rare coins genuine, altered, counterfeit have a story and it takes time for the story to be told.  It is has only been 15 years since 2001 were produced and only 5 years since small D was designated.  Some collectors view 5 years as a long time, but reality is we are only in the 1st to 3rd inning of understanding rarity of many of the China mint coins.   For the small D, I would say 1st inning, for 1995 1/2 3rd inning. 

In 2010 I bought a 1988 27g the 15th Winter Olympic Games Commemorative Silver Coin(Matte), it is the last coin on the page at the following link and is believed to be 15-20 pieces.
http://olden.sfu.edu.cn/web/synopsis.aspx?menuObjectId=4B8DB34E-B1EB-4B27-82E6-F180B0E7DFB4&menuCodeTag=10402

I sent it to NGC for grading with pedigree info from german dealer and numismatic research from Huang Ruiyong and it came back with Questionable Authenticity, ouch $10K down the drain.  Then couple years later I sent it to PCGS, a week later PR69 DCAM.  Put in a Stack Auction in August of 2012, sold for $15,535, I netted roughly $14,000.
https://www.sixbid.com/browse.html?auction=443&category=9454&lot=440758   

The fact that there was controversy about the coin in China and at NGC during my hold period 2010 to 2012, it was enough for me to want to sell the coin, rather than hold it for 10-20 years as I had initially planned when I bought it.  Also, since the coin was in a PCGS holder and I felt it would eventually degrade or develop white spots so I decided it to sell fast.  Now the challenge was how to sell it, I didn't want to sell it to someone I knew, because of the all risks in the coin and I didn't simply want to pass the risk to less sophisticated owner that could come back to haunt me years later, so instead I gave it to Stacks and they sold for $15,535, I netted $14,000 and was glad to move on.  10-30 years from now it could be $100K pattern coin or $5K as a fantasy coin, time will tell.  NGC still isn't certifying that coin.  https://www.sixbid.com/browse.html?auction=443&category=9454&lot=440758

The point of the story is controversy adds risk to any investment and each person needs to decide what level and type of risk they can sleep well at night.  This thread won't settle any controversy, it is just a seed that will start a debate that will be better understood 10-30 years from now or maybe longer.   
Title: Re: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product
Post by: poconopenn on May 31, 2017, 11:35:44 PM
Apparently we are not reading the previous post! ......  I do not like to speak for Silverstar  but here are the facts Silverstar DID NOT SUBMIT ANY PAPERWORK , he did not  submit the coins to NGC as small D He submitted the coins as large D AND one more time here!   NGC MADE THE DISCOVERY ON THEIR OWN WITHOUT ANYONE PROMPTING THEM TO DO SO, I am sure Peter Anthony can verify this. Again the small D was discovered by NGC  none of the early submitter s had anything to do with it .  The coins that where graded as large D but where in fact small D where the ones I personally submitted bright before silverstar submitted his and the discovery was made .

The small D coin is legitimate I have called NGC and they where 100% standing behind the authenticity of this coin ,,,,They in fact implied that the author of that blog or whatever you want to call it "quite possibly has an axe to grind "  Also if you read carefully thru every post  Peter Anthony subliminally suggest the possibility of the same thing

Now here is the big question:)  I have briefly looked at  a whole treasure trove of micro enlarged pictures of sections of the coin posted here they dont remotely even suggest anything IMHO , here is the question that no one WANTS TO ANSWER OR IS INCAPABLE OF RESPONDING TO : all photos of these coins in OMP state UNDENIABLY ARE IN 100% GENUINE SHENZHEN ORIGINAL MINT PACKAGING  ...... so anyone want to take a crack at how these forgerys got into that OMP   ....lets see what we dream up now:)   
NGC does not recognize new variety though its own research unless somebody makes request with convincible evidences. Somebody has to made request for small D version. Usually, the person made request will be the first person to receive the new designation label. The old thread at CCF indicted that silverstar’s eight coins were the earliest in NGC population report. Perhaps somebody made request with pictures and submitted coin later. This can happen but will be very unusual.

Clearly NGC has not done a good job in authenticating. Thirteen small D in three separated submissions slipped through its authenticity process. Those coins, if it had done properly, they should be returned as “questionable authenticity”, since they did not match the design of regular D version and no small D designation had been recognized yet. Furthermore, NGC has graded many high D and low D 2001 D gold pandas during last 10 years. Clearly, no single grader has noticed the design differences since nobody has requested new variety designation yet.  IMO, the authenticating procedure at NGC needs a major revamp immediately.

By the way, Shenzhen Mint has been sealed coins for a fee since 2010 with a minimum submission of 30 coins.  Shanghai Mint does the same.

Title: Re: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product
Post by: poconopenn on May 31, 2017, 11:48:11 PM
Disclosure: I do not own 2001 small D and have no interesting to be the referee between Mr. Zhao and NGC/PCGS. I do not know Mr. Zhao personally and have never met him nor have any communication with him in the past. I do have his books, read his articles and watch video which he discusses with other experts about MCC on TV.

Here are links of his recent article and video.

http://www.jibi.net/News/qbdjbd/19393350.html  (Chinese Numismatics, Vol 5, 2016, Review of authenticating and grading companies inside China, covers 6 foreign and 17 domestic companies)

http://www.coin001.com/read.php?tid=123580  (Discussion MCC with Mr. Sun, the most knowledgeable expert in circulated MCC)

My interesting in detecting counterfeit started in 1990s. During 1990s, I collected Morgan dollars. The market was flooded with high quality fake at that time. Chinese counterfeiter made high quality 1889 CC by stamping CC on 1889 (Philadelphia Mint) made from a transfer die. The valuation of 1889 CC was about 1000% higher than 1889. There were many US coins being counterfeited this way. Fortunately, the stamped CC had wrong size, font and position. Since Morgan dollar was more than 100 year old coin and all varieties had been identified long time ago, the chance of discovery a new variety for Morgan dollar after 100 years was very limited. Therefore, it is not difficult to spot the fake by comparing a genuine coin. MCC are relatively new. Many varieties were discovered recently. It is a prime target and excellent time for counterfeiter to produce a high quality new variety during discovery stage of MCC.

Mr. Zhao stated small D as not genuine based on two claims. First, only one master hub was made based on the Mint staff and documents. Second, the coins were distributed from an exclusive source. I will address these two claims in the future, based on my findings and understanding the production process at Mint.
Title: Re: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product
Post by: 1668Chris on June 01, 2017, 06:02:30 AM
NGC does not recognize new variety though its own research unless somebody makes request with convincible evidences. Somebody has to made request for small D version. Usually, the person made request will be the first person to receive the new designation label. The old thread at CCF indicted that silverstar’s eight coins were the earliest in NGC population report. Perhaps somebody made request with pictures and submitted coin later. This can happen but will be very unusual.

Clearly NGC has not done a good job in authenticating. Thirteen small D in three separated submissions slipped through its authenticity process. Those coins, if it had done properly, they should be returned as “questionable authenticity”, since they did not match the design of regular D version and no small D designation had been recognized yet. Furthermore, NGC has graded many high D and low D 2001 D gold pandas during last 10 years. Clearly, no single grader has noticed the design differences since nobody has requested new variety designation yet.  IMO, the authenticating procedure at NGC needs a major revamp immediately.

By the way, Shenzhen Mint has been sealed coins for a fee since 2010 with a minimum submission of 30 coins.  Shanghai Mint does the same.



This is not true.  NGC has a mind of their own when it comes to recognizing new varieties.  NGC has for the past couple of years written articles recognizing new MCC varieties.  Yet when you look in the pop reports not one coin exists.  I find the exact variety several months later and then submit the coin designation.  My coin then becomes pop #1.  Additionally I originally submitted the 1994 silver proof unicorn to NGC for variety designation with all three examples.  Their original response was that the variety was not significant enough to recognize separately.  I then went to PCGS who agreed to recognize. NGC decided to recognize some time later maybe a year or two.

My guess is there are many many varieties that exist but NGC will only recognize on their timetable.

Regarding the small "d"....if this private mint stamped a d on a non d 2001 panda it should be relatively easy to identify similar die marks on the small d with a regular non d.   If this can be proven then I think you may have your answer.
Title: Re: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product
Post by: jc888888888 on June 01, 2017, 06:44:38 AM
NGC does not recognize new variety though its own research unless somebody makes request with convincible evidences. Somebody has to made request for small D version. Usually, the person made request will be the first person to receive the new designation label. The old thread at CCF indicted that silverstar’s eight coins were the earliest in NGC population report. Perhaps somebody made request with pictures and submitted coin later. This can happen but will be very unusual.

Clearly NGC has not done a good job in authenticating. Thirteen small D in three separated submissions slipped through its authenticity process. Those coins, if it had done properly, they should be returned as “questionable authenticity”, since they did not match the design of regular D version and no small D designation had been recognized yet. Furthermore, NGC has graded many high D and low D 2001 D gold pandas during last 10 years. Clearly, no single grader has noticed the design differences since nobody has requested new variety designation yet.  IMO, the authenticating procedure at NGC needs a major revamp immediately.

By the way, Shenzhen Mint has been sealed coins for a fee since 2010 with a minimum submission of 30 coins.  Shanghai Mint does the same.


total hogwash ..Ngc recognizes new variety's on their own all the time ....  Zhao is mistaken and as anyone knows and realizes mint records are far from accurate look at all the revisions to publish mintage numbers are proof of that . And mints are not putting coins in their OMP that they didnt produce .. AND ONCE again since I directly bought my coins from a person who owed them and held them in a safe since 2003  this is an undisputable fact  and the dealer that sold them to silverstar got his from the same source and pretty much all the coins graded at and around the time of discovery where from that same safe .....     


Title: Re: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product
Post by: jc888888888 on June 01, 2017, 06:45:19 AM
NGC does not recognize new variety though its own research unless somebody makes request with convincible evidences. Somebody has to made request for small D version. Usually, the person made request will be the first person to receive the new designation label. The old thread at CCF indicted that silverstar’s eight coins were the earliest in NGC population report. Perhaps somebody made request with pictures and submitted coin later. This can happen but will be very unusual.

Clearly NGC has not done a good job in authenticating. Thirteen small D in three separated submissions slipped through its authenticity process. Those coins, if it had done properly, they should be returned as “questionable authenticity”, since they did not match the design of regular D version and no small D designation had been recognized yet. Furthermore, NGC has graded many high D and low D 2001 D gold pandas during last 10 years. Clearly, no single grader has noticed the design differences since nobody has requested new variety designation yet.  IMO, the authenticating procedure at NGC needs a major revamp immediately.

By the way, Shenzhen Mint has been sealed coins for a fee since 2010 with a minimum submission of 30 coins.  Shanghai Mint does the same.



total hogwash ..Ngc recognizes new variety's on their own all the time ....  Zhao is mistaken and as anyone knows and realizes mint records are far from accurate look at all the revisions to publish mintage numbers are proof of that . And mints are not putting coins in their OMP that they didnt produce .. AND ONCE again since I directly bought my coins from a person who owed them and held them in a safe since 2003  this is an undisputable fact  and the dealer that sold them to silverstar got his from the same source and pretty much all the coins graded at and around the time of discovery where from that same safe .....     
Title: Re: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product
Post by: Kelvin C on June 01, 2017, 07:15:28 AM
[By the way, Shenzhen Mint has been sealed coins for a fee since 2010 with a minimum submission of 30 coins.  Shanghai Mint does the same.]

Does this imply that it’s possible hundreds of the 2001 small D coins were re-sealed at the Mint and No official or employee noticed that they were small D???
Title: Re: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product
Post by: wittu on June 01, 2017, 12:43:50 PM
total hogwash .. 

Hi,
would you please cool down a bit. I am just following this discussion at the sideline (NO financial interests in this topic). poconopenn is highly respected for his knowledge ---> HIGHLY respected. He never is emotional, but super helpful. Your words are not respectful.

Greetings,
wittu
Title: Re: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product
Post by: geoxxx on June 01, 2017, 12:54:58 PM
I think that at this point we have to look at the facts:

1) There is someone, that few people may know, in China that says that the coins may be from a private mint.
Perhaps it is true...perhaps not.
on the other hand
2) NGC and PCGS have certified the coins as genuine.

This is the debate.
Who you choose to believe is your choice.

I think it is natural that those who own the coin are trying to protect its authenticity.  Anyone who owns any rare coin would probably do the same.

I also think that facts are important and that rumour and wishful thinking on any side can seriously harm the Chinese coin market which is already riddled with fakes and counterfeits.

Let us all be calm and careful and discuss the facts with respect and understanding.
Title: Re: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product
Post by: bonke on June 01, 2017, 01:35:42 PM
As a collector, I have been following this discussion with a level of concern. 

In December of 2012, I purchased a 2001 (small D) silver panda from one of the coin forum members.  I sent it to NGC for authentication, grading and encapsulation.  The coin was authenticated by NGC and graded a 69.  I added it to my permanent collection.  My basis in the coin is $572.  In contrast, the 2001 silver panda in my collection (without a large or small D) (graded a 69) has a basis of $64.39.  I paid $500+ extra to own a potentially rare silver panda.

In the past, I have read the discussions about 1984 silver pagodas, 1984 silver goldfish, etc.  Experts tell us whether these were official Mint products, private Mint products, counterfeit, etc.  Third party grading services decide whether to grade these coins or medals based upon best available information and decide how to describe these coins or medals on their labels.

If you are an investor, these discussions are very important.  If you are a dealer, you are turning over your inventory quickly, capturing a quick profit and moving on to the next opportunity.  As a collector, these discussions are a mere distraction.  I am careful to limit the level of distraction so that the discussion does not deter me from pursuing my hobby.  If the distraction becomes too great, I sell the item, recognize the loss and again move on.

Mark Bonke

Title: Re: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product
Post by: twong on June 01, 2017, 02:12:05 PM
total hogwash ..Ngc recognizes new variety's on their own all the time ....  Zhao is mistaken and as anyone knows and realizes mint records are far from accurate look at all the revisions to publish mintage numbers are proof of that . And mints are not putting coins in their OMP that they didnt produce .. AND ONCE again since I directly bought my coins from a person who owed them and held them in a safe since 2003  this is an undisputable fact  and the dealer that sold them to silverstar got his from the same source and pretty much all the coins graded at and around the time of discovery where from that same safe .....     

Jc, by saying that you and the dealer (thincat I assume) that sold to silverstar got the coins from same source I think doesn't contradict what the author said that the coins were exclusive from one source.
Title: Re: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product
Post by: jc888888888 on June 01, 2017, 03:28:03 PM
 Time will tell my bet is on NGC   I know where the coinS  I purchased and  Own  came from  and I know for a fact that they are legitimate no one holds coins in the safe for a decade then pulls them out and sells them for $70 or so a piece to perpetuate a fraud
Title: Re: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product
Post by: KeepOnTrying! on June 01, 2017, 08:26:51 PM
Hi,
would you please cool down a bit. I am just following this discussion at the sideline (NO financial interests in this topic). poconopenn is highly respected for his knowledge ---> HIGHLY respected. He never is emotional, but super helpful. Your words are not respectful.

Greetings,
wittu

wittu +1 with N40

It is imperative that we remain civil to each other no matter how difficult a discussion may be.

Best wishes.
Title: Re: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product
Post by: silverstar1 on June 01, 2017, 10:16:54 PM
Silverstar1,

Please provide information about you successful efforts in obtaining the recognizing of small D from NGC. What type of documents required to convince NGC to recognize the new variety? How long to take NGC  to accept your request? Your help to clarify the process will be very appreciated.

The small D version was discovered in later 2012. Prior to December 2012, they were 13 small D graded as regular D by NGC. They are 2780136-046, -047, 2779181-019 and 2780533-021-030. Based on the Invoice#, they were graded not too long before your 8 coins being graded as small D.

There are clear evidence to suggest that 2001-D gold panda has high D and low D versions in all denominations. Members of CCF had shown data that NGC had graded those varieties as regular 2001 D many years before 2012. The ratio of high D and low D is about 3 to 1. To this date, NGC has not recognized those varieties.

Owners of 2001 small D,

It is time for you to take proactive action. Since both NGC and PCGS have money-back guarantee, you can request both companies to review this coin’s authenticity with a link of this thread. This will force NGC and PCGS to contact the author of this article and resolve the issue. If this coin is not genuine, you will be compensated by NGC or PCGS, or if this coin is genuine, the price will go up in the future.

JC888.... is correct as I have also stated a few times , I sent these coins to NGC as regular 2001d pandas not realizing the small d . I imagine when they were looked at by NGC they noticed the smaller d compared to the regular version and I would think with all the counterfeits sent to them they heavily scrutinized the coin and attributed the variety. I dont know if it used to be different but I have had quite a few coins come back with a variety attribution that I did not request so it is definitely not true that the customer has to request the variety designation.
Title: Re: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product
Post by: silverstar1 on June 01, 2017, 10:46:52 PM
Just to add a few facts that have already been stated.  The coins are solid silver coins, they are pretty much identical to the regular 2001 d coins, They were in sealed Shenzhen  mint packaging and capsules also identical with the regular 2001 d pandas, they were sold as regular 2001 d pandas (no profit motivation for fake or fantasy coins) , and they were graded and authenticated by NGC and PCGS the most reputable grading companies in the world.
So far I have not seen one shred of evidence that these are anything but a genuine mint product . I have read the translation of Mr. zhou's article and honestly it reads like a joke, it may be just the translation because I do not read or speak any Chinese languages . To me it appears Mr . Zhou has an agenda and I am not sure why , possibly he is on a fishing expedition. I dont know of Mr zhou so I will give the benefit of the doubt on his credentials but cant quite see why he is ignoring the actual facts and writing articles like this with no actual facts himself to back this up.
My best guess is still that these were never meant to be circulated and were to be melted , but somehow some were sold and if that is the case it may even be a legal issue which I doubt anyone is ever going to come foreword officially with the real story behind it if anyone is even still alive to tell.

 
Title: Re: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product
Post by: silverstar1 on June 01, 2017, 10:51:55 PM
On another note , does anyone know when the last time any bulk submission of these 2001 small d silver pandas were graded by either NGC or PCGS ? just curious
Title: Re: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product
Post by: jc888888888 on June 02, 2017, 06:34:16 AM
Just to add a few facts that have already been stated.  The coins are solid silver coins, they are pretty much identical to the regular 2001 d coins, They were in sealed Shenzhen  mint packaging and capsules also identical with the regular 2001 d pandas, they were sold as regular 2001 d pandas (no profit motivation for fake or fantasy coins) , and they were graded and authenticated by NGC and PCGS the most reputable grading companies in the world.
So far I have not seen one shred of evidence that these are anything but a genuine mint product . I have read the translation of Mr. zhou's article and honestly it reads like a joke, it may be just the translation because I do not read or speak any Chinese languages . To me it appears Mr . Zhou has an agenda and I am not sure why , possibly he is on a fishing expedition. I dont know of Mr zhou so I will give the benefit of the doubt on his credentials but cant quite see why he is ignoring the actual facts and writing articles like this with no actual facts himself to back this up.
My best guess is still that these were never meant to be circulated and were to be melted , but somehow some were sold and if that is the case it may even be a legal issue which I doubt anyone is ever going to come foreword officially with the real story behind it if anyone is even still alive to tell.

 


+11111 Exactly what I have been saying .....In my life experience anyone who makes a statement Like Mr. Zhou has without ONE minuscule shred of evidence offered . One can assume one of two things  1) they have an agenda or ulterior motive. 2) or they are simply stupid or delusional  ,pick which one you like best.
now AS FAR AS RESPECT GOES : I have the utmost respect for the author of this thread ...what I am surprised at is the title of this thread which clearly states the coin is not genuine ,the author know better than to start a thread like that WITHOUT one shred of evidence to back it up .On the other hand the evidence presented proving otherwise is at least undeniable. It is damaging to our hobby and author should know better than to keep trying to advance an agenda.
Here are some facts for you : When you look at the population reports of both NGC and PCGS and you take into account that  this coin was found in 2 hoard,s  at 2 different times (look at grading dates:)  I know this as fact ...both times from the same area of China the second time by a coin dealer  . The second Hoard the discoverer knew what he had .And you take into account the second hoard was in identical 10 ct OMP.  NOW it is way more than reasonable to assume more than 90% of all the coins ever found to date have been graded  I know this to be a solid estimate. It is also very reasonable to assume that the COIN world has scoured the world looking for more of these coins . Can more show up?  Absolutely. Have they?? no....grading has stopped:) ADD up the submissions Take into account 1 to 3% being crossed over back and forth ( I actually crossed 2 coins from NGC to PCGS for a customer who wanted PCGS ) and I am sure some have been crossed the other way.  So when you add up all those submitted coins the way it looks to me:) the 2001 small D might possibly and the way it looks to me most probably be the rarest  Panda ever produced by the China Mint.Why was it produced ?????? that is the mystery worth exploring!
Title: Re: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product
Post by: jc888888888 on June 02, 2017, 06:59:42 AM
Lets move this thread in another direction ....  For all the research buffs on the forum ..The second hoard was found later by a coin dealer in Beijing  he was smart :)(THIS WAS NOT THE DEALER INVOLVED WITH THE FIRST HOARD)  he didnt want to crash the market for what he just found ..... So he started grading them a few at a time ,First he started grading at PCGS   WHY PCGS  because at that time the perception was PCGS was more lenient.... look at all the 70,s :) but he quickly found out NGC coins where worth more .......... look at the corresponding flurry of grading all happening much later than the first hoard....... He spread the coins around some of this second hoard did wind up in the hands of the first dealer who was involved in hoard #1 .....he put them up on e bay but did not discover them (disclosure I bought 3 or 4 coins from him from the second hoard)....Virtually none of  hoard #2 was sold in OMP AS DEALER # 2 wanted too much money for them ...... study the grading submissions  THEY tell an interesting story :) ... all of the coins currently on e bay I believe to be from hoard#2 ....  if you add up all the coins graded by both services in the second 4 to 6 month time frame that is the second hoard:)   
Title: Re: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product
Post by: KeepOnTrying! on June 02, 2017, 05:22:04 PM
Does the Mint have any Library copies of this coin or don't they do so for coins they usually Mint? I hear mints normally keep copies of coins and other intermediate minting materials and trial strikes etc. Or not in every case? Thanks.
Title: Re: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product
Post by: silverstar1 on June 02, 2017, 09:59:47 PM
Lets move this thread in another direction ....  For all the research buffs on the forum ..The second hoard was found later by a coin dealer in Beijing  he was smart :)(THIS WAS NOT THE DEALER INVOLVED WITH THE FIRST HOARD)  he didnt want to crash the market for what he just found ..... So he started grading them a few at a time ,First he started grading at PCGS   WHY PCGS  because at that time the perception was PCGS was more lenient.... look at all the 70,s :) but he quickly found out NGC coins where worth more .......... look at the corresponding flurry of grading all happening much later than the first hoard....... He spread the coins around some of this second hoard did wind up in the hands of the first dealer who was involved in hoard #1 .....he put them up on e bay but did not discover them (disclosure I bought 3 or 4 coins from him from the second hoard)....Virtually none of  hoard #2 was sold in OMP AS DEALER # 2 wanted too much money for them ...... study the grading submissions  THEY tell an interesting story :) ... all of the coins currently on e bay I believe to be from hoard#2 ....  if you add up all the coins graded by both services in the second 4 to 6 month time frame that is the second hoard:)   

Great post ! This is some good information and I was not aware of some of the details on the second hoard and if it was a separate hoard or still from the original source, I would like to see this move more in this direction too .  I have no doubt that these coins are a genuine mint product but am very interested in any info as to why they were minted in the first place , I would love to see a thread more along the lines of " The elusive 2001 small D silver pandas and the mysteries surrounding their origin "  . Unfortunately I am not sure there will be much more forthcoming on the subject , if there is someone that knows the truth about it they are not talking that I know of.
Title: Re: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product
Post by: silverstar1 on June 02, 2017, 10:04:04 PM
Does the Mint have any Library copies of this coin or don't they do so for coins they usually Mint? I hear mints normally keep copies of coins and other intermediate minting materials and trial strikes etc. Or not in every case? Thanks.
Good question ! I dont know if the Chinese mints keep anything like this but if they do I doubt they would keep all the different varieties. Maybe someone here can answer that. I personally like the mystery of the variety coins (bold varieties at least) , it makes them fun coins to collect and study.
Title: Re: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product
Post by: KeyDate1/2ozPandas on June 02, 2017, 11:25:04 PM
I think there is a misconception that this thread started some controversy about the authenticity of the small D coin, the reality is the controversy started in 2012 and is common knowledge among the mainland dealers.

If you look at the auction records for this coin from 2014-2016, 21 publicly recorded transactions occurred, 18 were in the US and 3 were in China, this indicates to me the coin is highly collectible in the US, but not in China.  This is a red flag to me considering the coin originated in China and even when it became known of its existence, the second hoard dealer choose to sell to the US, rather than mainland China. 

I am in no way implying that I think the coin is not genuine (I really don't know, I wasn't at the mint in 2001), I am just saying there has been controversy surrounding the coin for many years China and this thread just started the controversy in the US. 
Title: Re: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product
Post by: Kelvin C on June 03, 2017, 03:03:53 AM
This is a red flag to me considering the coin originated in China and even when it became known of its existence, the second hoard dealer choose to sell to the US, rather than mainland China.

However, there are plenty of 2001 Silver Pandas with D in China. It has not been a popular coin to collect there due to its similar to 02. Overseas collectors are more likely to buy sheets of D's. Look at the 2007 25th anniversary sets. They didn't even both to included the two coins just merge as one for 2001-02. Back then Chinese dealers are not so interested in varieties anyway. (Some are but most not) It is well known that westerners are willing to pay slightly more so why not sell overseas if have the avenue.

Further not all went overseas as others have been purchased in China.

You have wrote before about Master collectors not focusing on varieties they just want the coins.

Title: Re: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product
Post by: Mirkkanen on June 03, 2017, 03:05:20 AM
I would love to see a thread more along the lines of " The elusive 2001 small D silver pandas and the mysteries surrounding their origin "  .

You are a member of the forum and all members can create threads. All you have to do is get it started.
Title: Re: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product
Post by: twong on June 03, 2017, 04:15:29 AM
However, there are plenty of 2001 Silver Pandas with D in China. It has not been a popular coin to collect there due to its similar to 02. Overseas collectors are more likely to buy sheets of D's. Look at the 2007 25th anniversary sets. They didn't even both to included the two coins just merge as one for 2001-02. Back then Chinese dealers are not so interested in varieties anyway. (Some are but most not) It is well known that westerners are willing to pay slightly more so why not sell overseas if have the avenue.

Further not all went overseas as others have been purchased in China.

You have wrote before about Master collectors not focusing on varieties they just want the coins.



Kelvin, I don't think that's the reason why it got sold more in US. Arif has already mentioned that the controversy started in 2012.  If you knew about this controversy, would you still purchase it? Furthermore from my experience price of panda coins are actually more expensive in China.
Title: Re: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product
Post by: jc888888888 on June 03, 2017, 08:07:05 AM
Everyone has an opinion .Mine is the coin is no doubt in my mind genuine ...I would urge anyone holding the coin to sit tight as IMHO it is a quite rare genuine China mint Panda.  That being said I will put my money where my conviction is ,I am a buyer of the 2001 small d if anyone is nervous PM me. 
The real question why was it made??  The only plausible theory I ever heard was it was struck and then decided the d was too small and dies where changed ? who knows??that is the mystery...like many variety,s sometimes the dies are slightly different at every mint?  creating the variety?
Title: Re: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product
Post by: 1668Chris on June 03, 2017, 10:51:48 AM
A couple of technical points to consider. 

1). The small "d" is incused on the surface of the coin.  This means a couple of things.  One is the die would have to have a raised surface "d" to create this effect on the coin.  This means that the "d" cannot be hand stamped onto the die.  Which may be the case in the 1994 silver proof unicorn since the "p" is raised on the surface.

2). This now means that there are two hubs to produce the incused small d and large d.  The hubs are used to produce the dies.

3). If two hubs do not exist, then the only other way to produce an incused "d" is to manually, thru the use of a press, place a "d" on the surface of the coin.

4). If #3 is true, I doubt the mint would do this which would mean it was done privately.  But the question remains why?  Why duplicate another 2001 panda with a "d" without a profit motive.  Counterfeiting only makes economic sense after a coin becomes very valuable....which is not the case here.  There were plenty of other "d" s available on the market.  It is possible that the small "d" were trial strikes to test the dies, for which the mint was not happy with. And hence produced another hub.  For which the original hub may have been destroyed.  ( this may easily explain the 1987 missing mint mark and 1992 high 2)

5). I would have to believe that any post private mint pressing of a small "d" would easily cause damage to some other parts of the coins surface which should be easily recognizable.

Food for thought.
Title: Re: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product
Post by: poconopenn on June 04, 2017, 11:26:45 PM
I have promised to address two claims made by Mr. Zhao in his article.

Only one master hub was used during the production of 2001 D

I have examined pictures of more than 50 coins of 2001, 2001 LD and 2002 and about 90 coins of 2001 SD.
 
Here is my findings:

2001 has few frosty variations. It has many frosty break at the panda face and forehead.

2001 LD has many frosty variations. It has many frosty break at the panda face and forehead, but the 3-D details of fur at the frosted area are the best among these four coins.
 
2001 SD was made from the same production die, since it has the identical scratched line at the same location. The frosted area is in an excellent condition and the 3-D details of fur in frosted area are poor vs. 2001 and 2001 LD. Pictures provided by SANDAC in Reply #92 also suggested that the 3-D details of fur on mirror surface as well as bamboos in frosted area are less pronounce in 2001 SD vs. 2001 LD.

2002 also has few frosty variations. The frosted area is in an excellent condition and 3-D details of fur in frosted area are slightly poorer than 2001 and 2001 LD, but slightly better than 2001 SD.
 
Attached are pictures of reverse of 2001, 2001 LD version 1, 2001 LD version 2, 2001 SD, 2002 and pictures of obverse (temple) of 2001, 2001 LD and 2001 SD.  Two pictures of 2001 LD (Picture 2 and 3) are posted to show the significant frosty variation of this coin. More pictures will be posted in the next posting to show the differences in fur details in the frosty area for these four coins.

Conclusion:

The design of 2001 is significantly different from 2001 SD. In addition, as mentioned by SANDAC in reply # 59, the bottom of D is mirror in 2001 SD. If D is press in to 2001, the bottom of D will not be mirror-like.  Therefore, it rules out the possibility of adding D on 2001. Based on the available pictures, 2001 SD, IMO, most likely was made with 2002 production die with an added D. Design of both coins is identical. Both coins have a smooth frosty surface (body part of panda) and leak of 3-D details of fur in the same area. Furthermore, based on NGC population report, 2001 SD has 14% graded as 70, and 2002 has 13.3%, while all pre-2005 silver pandas have less than 5%. The similarity of grading result suggest the production die of 2002 was being added D to produce this 2001 SD. I have no intention to speculate if this 2001 SD was produced by Shenzhen Mint or a private mint. However, I can confidently conclude that this small D was produced in a special run, since all coins are from the same production die and packed in the same sheet.

Exclusive source

This claim, IMO, has been established clearly by postings of jc88888888 and silverstar1. The exclusive source was located in Beijing. I will add the following, based on my understanding of the business practice of distributors in China and my own experience in 2002 during a business trip to Shanghai. IN 2000, China Gold Coin Inc. established a distribution network inside China. The network consisted of 100 registered official distributors (currently 900 and 8 major banks). Usually, the distributor also has its network of dealerships. All distributors try to unload their allocation as fast as possible.  The incentive quote system, which next year allocation depending on the selling results of the current year, will encourage them to sell their holding in the same year.  Therefore, all MCC will be distributed quickly and evenly in the country. In 2002, during my business trip to Shanghai. I visited Shanghai coin market and tried to buy 2000 mirror and 2001 D, since they were not for foreign distribution. I could only find two sheets of 2001 D from two different dealers and four mirror 2000 in a connected sheet. Therefore, I was very surprised that someone could find 15 sheets which made with the same die in 2003. I will not be surprised if somebody purchased total of 15 sheets from several dealers, but not single dealer. The chance is very limited.

I do want to thank SANDAC for his very high resolution pictures as well as his description of the coins.
 
Pic. 1: 2001; Pic. 2: 2001 LD Version 1; Pic. 3: 2001 LD version 2; Pic. 4: 2001 SD; Pic. 5: 2002; Pic. 6: 2001; Pic. 7: 2001 LD; Pic. 8: 2001 SD   
Title: Re: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product
Post by: poconopenn on June 04, 2017, 11:41:24 PM
More pictures.

Pic. 1 & 5: 2001; Pic. 2 & 6: 2001 LD; Pic. 3 & 7: 2001 SD; Pic. 4 & 8: 2002
Title: Re: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product
Post by: KeepOnTrying! on June 04, 2017, 11:57:32 PM
OMG!!!  :w00t:  N8

If the 2001sd was made with the 2002 die, that means the 2001sd features could be more attenuated when compared to the 2002 coin but that is if a large number of 2001sds were produced. Is this noticeable in the photos? Could this attenuation be seen when comparing the earliest 2002 coins graded by NGC and PCGS with the earliest 2001sd graded by these companies?

How many 2001sd coins were minted?

Thanks for more material to ponder on.
Title: Re: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product
Post by: Kelvin C on June 05, 2017, 10:47:21 PM
Kelvin, I don't think that's the reason why it got sold more in US. Arif has already mentioned that the controversy started in 2012.  If you knew about this controversy, would you still purchase it? Furthermore from my experience price of panda coins are actually more expensive in China.

I knew about it and noted I paid over 1000 in earlier post.

Can I ask you? Knowing what you know today and if you had the choice to buy 2001-2001 Large D or the 2001 Small d at $100.

Which one would you buy?

If you say the small d. Then you admit to buying coins that are not “genuine”

Further, I am not speaking about any other Pandas other than the 2001-2002. As you notice I refer to both those when I speak of 2007 Anniversary sets.

You read what popconopenn writes about his trip to China. What did he look to buy? Two coins that he could not buy overseas! The 'D" was for domestic release only. There are plenty of 2001 large D coins in China. But not in the west. (Over the years anyway) So the 2001 silver panda with a D mark sold for more in the west than it would in China in the past and perhaps now.

As far as controversy. Yes. I would not disagree with Arif. However my take on this is: Due to the fact the 2001 small d just appeared around 2011-2012 Chinese dealers naturally speculate that something is suspicious. But this is said behind closed doors. However, just like office chat, I must look at the real picture. I posted a link of 80!! PCGS authorized dealers in China. How many of them have spoken out or commented in publications or newspaper? How many have come forward to PCGS and said I am not going to take the submission of the 2001 small d because I THINK it is not genuine? Same goes for NGC. Both grading companies Top Executives have been to China many times since 2012 when these were discovered. Both companies were holding grading seminars, opening relations with the dealers and the Mints. Receiving gifts from Mints and associating with the Most knowledgeable coin experts in China. Just read their news and see how often they comment about MCC and their commitment to working with China and providing the highest service.

You can be sure that both these grading companies and auction house like Stacks Bowers knew about this controversy. Yet they continue to grade and sell at auction.

As late as 2015 I received an offer from a Chinese dealer for my small d. The offer was naturally less than I paid so I didn't entertain it. None the less a prominent dealer made offer. I knew about the speculation but the offer only re enforced my believe the coin was genuine Shenzhen Mint issue.

Sometimes what dealers speculate on and there actions are quite different. Go and offer any dealer in China selling a 2001 small d 500 Yuan today. He will not sit there and discuss controversy with you. He will tell you don't bother me with low offer and go somewhere else. Knowing several dealers. They probably just ignore you.

I have no intention to speculate if this 2001 SD was produced by Shenzhen Mint or a private mint.   


I’ll speculate this because this is the basis of 2001 small d owners argument. They were produced by the Shenzhen Mint.

A) It would be un imaginable for a private mint to have done this and then bring the 2001 small d coins into the Shenzen Mint to have them sealed. (Did no employee remember a small d coming in for seal when Mr. Zhao had a chat with them?? Or are people just not there anymore, retired or no records to verify any of these events?)

B) Why would a private Mint do all this work? Take all this risk (Legally or illegally) THEN sell the small d in the markets at the same price as a large d 2001 panda!?

These make more sense:

My best guess is still that these were never meant to be circulated and were to be melted , but somehow some were sold and if that is the case it may even be a legal issue which I doubt anyone is ever going to come foreword officially with the real story behind it if anyone is even still alive to tell.

It is possible that the small "d" were trial strikes to test the dies, for which the mint was not happy with. And hence produced another hub.  For which the original hub may have been destroyed.
Food for thought.





Title: Re: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product
Post by: silverstar1 on June 05, 2017, 11:25:34 PM
Poconopenn, Thanks for your post and analysis .
So you are concluding that the 2001 small d panda is actually from the 2002 Die ? Wow that is something I did not even consider , I dont necessarily agree or disagree with that but it certainly adds a new twist to ponder . It could be that they planned on a D version for the 2002, but then why have the 2001 still on the obverse, maybe just a test strike never meant to be released?

Do you have any opinion why this would have been done? Also are you comparing the actual coins or just pictures ? the lighting and angles can play all kinds of tricks even subtle differences.

I will have to look at all three coins under magnification and test your conclusion.

I definitely agree that this is not some aftermarket stamp on a regular 2001 panda , the pressure required to stamp deep in Fine silver and even gold would be extremely difficult to do without making a significant mark on the coin, I have stamped alot of metal. And the lack of tool marks would rule out engraving so I think we can put the aftermarket D theory to rest.
Title: Re: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product
Post by: trozau on June 06, 2017, 08:55:59 AM
Poconopenn, thanks for all your detailed analysis. If the silver 2001 small D was struck using the 2002 panda die with small D added, it would suggest that they were struck at the same time (or after) that the 2002 were struck. If the official mint were producing these, it would follow that they would have struck them with diagonal reeding (which you say started with the 2002 silver Panda).
Title: Re: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product
Post by: SANDAC on June 06, 2017, 10:12:24 AM
Brilliant!  My 2001 small D has straight reeding, same as the large D.
Title: Re: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product
Post by: 1668Chris on June 06, 2017, 10:15:31 AM
I also have a question regarding the use of the 2002 die.  Since the die itself is a reverse image of the coin, the "d" on the die must be raised above the surface of the die, to cause the "d" on the coin to be incused.  Without creating a new hub, I am not sure how a "d" can be added to the die.  This does not make sense. 

Here is a good article on die making:

 http://www.doubleddie.com/58201.html

Title: Re: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product
Post by: poconopenn on June 06, 2017, 09:12:49 PM
I also have a question regarding the use of the 2002 die.  Since the die itself is a reverse image of the coin, the "d" on the die must be raised above the surface of the die, to cause the "d" on the coin to be incused.  Without creating a new hub, I am not sure how a "d" can be added to the die.  This does not make sense. 

Sorry, I use die loosely. I consider hub also a die.

You are correct, logically, this D will be added to working hub if master hub does not have D. IMO, there is no master hub of 2002 D. If you look the picture careful, you will notice that the small D is not straight. The engraver should be able to notice the defect immediately on the large scale plastic model and made the correction if 2002 D master hub was ever made.

Just for information

Die Making

The artist/engraver creates a large plastic model of the coin -----electroplated copper model-----using a reducing lathe to make a steel master hub (positive imagine) ----- master die (negative imagine) -----working hub (positive imagine) ------Working die (production die, negative imagine)

In earlier years, especially for low mintage MCC, the master die would be used as working die. However, for high mintage MCC, such as pandas and circulated coins, the working hub is needed to make multiple working dies. China Mint has about 20 production stations in their plant. Therefore, many working dies will be produced to make a normal production run.

For silver pandas, prior to 2000, all Chinese characters and numbers are raised part of the design with a frosted surface. 2000 is very special, the Chinese characters and 2000 are raised part of design with a mirror surface on observe, while Ag.999 1 oz. and 10 Yuan on reverse are not raised part of the design with a mirror surface. After 2000, all Chinese characters and numbers are not raised part of the design, but with a mirror surface. The frosty treatment is done on the working die. These is the reason that many frosty variations of silver pandas have been noticed.

Attached is picture of die preparation at Shenyang Mint, copied from book “In Commemorating of 100th Anniversary of Shenyang Mint.” The second picture in this picture is electroplated copper model. Clearly, the Chinese characters, date and denomination was included in the design, not added later. 
Title: Re: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product
Post by: poconopenn on June 10, 2017, 03:25:10 PM
For future reference

The attached pictures are copied from recent eBay listing of a double sealed 2001 SD. The observe has a mirror dot, similar to SANDAC’s SD. However, the surface of this double sealed coin is relatively lumpy and has many small frosty break on the body of panda. IMO, this coin was made with the same die but at a later stage. The last picture is copied from SANDAC's picture.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/2001D-SMALL-D-SILVER-PANDA-10-YUAN-MS-/142388026785?_trksid=p2047675.l2557&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&nma=true&si=ZxHg3hPvzHBAEkyFI7%252By0A2X6As%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc

Title: Re: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product
Post by: KeepOnTrying! on June 10, 2017, 06:38:36 PM
Poconopenn, thanks for all your detailed analysis. If the silver 2001 small D was struck using the 2002 panda die with small D added, it would suggest that they were struck at the same time (or after) that the 2002 were struck. If the official mint were producing these, it would follow that they would have struck them with diagonal reeding (which you say started with the 2002 silver Panda).

Brilliant!  My 2001 small D has straight reeding, same as the large D.

Which die/hub usually carries the reeding pattern during silver panda coin minting? Is it the die/hub for the obverse or reverse, or is the reeding pattern stamped independently, maybe by the holder/receptacle in which the blank is inserted for stamping? Thanks for clarification because I don't know the answer. Best wishes.
Title: Re: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product
Post by: poconopenn on June 10, 2017, 07:41:18 PM
Which die/hub usually carries the reeding pattern during silver panda coin minting? Is it the die/hub for the obverse or reverse, or is the reeding pattern stamped independently, maybe by the holder/receptacle in which the blank is inserted for stamping? Thanks for clarification because I don't know the answer. Best wishes.

In order to hold the coin securely during the striking process, a metal collar that is the exact diameter of the coin is placed in between the two coin dies. A planchet is placed on top of the anvil die and held securely by the collar.

The collar has a series of small grooves already carved into it. When the planchet is struck at tremendous pressure, the coin tries to expand out the side but is held in place by the collar. The tiny grooves on the collar are now transferred to the edge of the coin.
Title: Re: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product
Post by: KeepOnTrying! on June 10, 2017, 09:19:31 PM
In order to hold the coin securely during the striking process, a metal collar that is the exact diameter of the coin is placed in between the two coin dies. A planchet is placed on top of the anvil die and held securely by the collar.

The collar has a series of small grooves already carved into it. When the planchet is struck at tremendous pressure, the coin tries to expand out the side but is held in place by the collar. The tiny grooves on the collar are now transferred to the edge of the coin.

Thanks for the technical information, which I needed to continue following the discussion.

What this suggests is that the reeding pattern of the 2001sd silver panda does not prove or disprove the hypothesis that the reverse of the coin may have been minted with a 2002 hub/die?  :confused1:
Title: Re: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product
Post by: poconopenn on June 11, 2017, 12:03:42 AM
Thanks for the technical information, which I needed to continue following the discussion.

What this suggests is that the reeding pattern of the 2001sd silver panda does not prove or disprove the hypothesis that the reverse of the coin may have been minted with a 2002 hub/die?  :confused1:

There are significant design changes after 2001 for observe.

See attached pictures.
Title: Re: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product
Post by: Mirkkanen on September 04, 2017, 10:36:55 AM
In latest issue of JEAN . . .

2001 small D silver panda is referred to as a fantasy coin (see attached)
Title: Re: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product
Post by: 1668Chris on December 12, 2017, 10:39:31 AM
I wonder if the 1990 "small P" will suffer a similar debate...given its recent discovery!!!
Title: Re: 2001 small D 1 oz. silver panda is not "genuine" China Mint product
Post by: Clark Smith on December 12, 2017, 11:32:29 AM
The 1990 small P is found in sets/boxes from the time period (1990).    There are also other date varieties that are not recognized yet.