(to be continued)N17 :crying:
N48I do have all the mintage info. It is in a table, not easy to paste in here. I will make a screenshot of the table and upload it later today.
Fascinating information on one of my favorite series and then... N17 :crying:
N16
You gave actual mintage information on 2010 Yuyuan & 2013 Lan Ting but nothing on the 2014 Summer Palace, Xiequyuan or Yuanmingyuan.
Is this information unknown at this time?
I have been unable to easily find an unblemished 2014 Summer Palace, are white spots common on these?
Do you have a picture of the Xiequyuan or an estimate of their value?
fwang2450,The gold colored ones are actually brass. The silver medal is rhodium plated.
Great translation. An interesting glimpse into the technical difficulties of minting.
I remembered visiting the Summer Palace and other gardens in 1982. The gardens were in great shape even with then recent upheaval of Cultural Revolution and poor financial state of China. By Western standard these gardens were small and few relative to population they served, but they are extensively cultivated and maintained and very important recreational spots for the everyday Chinese. I'd venture to guess in 1982 they were the only recreational relieves from the harsh daily grind. I can see why the garden theme resonant with the collectors, especially older collectors who lived through these harsh days.
Your pictures showed both silver and gold colored coins. Are the gold colored one rhodium plated?
The 2014 Yuanmingyuan Classical Gardens Old Summer Palace has writing on it's side, can someone translate please?Those characters mean "China Banknote Printing and Coin Minting", referring to the organization that governs Shanghai Mint.
I'm hearing this medal is not producing 70's for some reason, could it be the rhodium plating?
The Summer Palace -Xiequyuan is low in mintage, as it was a bonus to the collectors. It is mentioned in the article.
Fwang - Excellent info about these medals. Thank you for sharing.
Summer palace mintage shows 99.....is it that low?
Gold - mintage 20 - So that's out of question to even see in market.
Silver Antique - Low mintage compared to regular finish. do you come across antique finish or even that's rare?
Thanks!
I am hearing there are possibly less than 10 PF-70 silver Yuanmingyuan due to the high relief and their price starts around $400.Due to the experimental nature of these medals, they may not be perfectly minted. The Yuanmingyuan (Old Summer Palace) antique finish medal have quite a few 67s and 68s. NGC probably is still struggling with their proper grading. Personally I don't care much about the grades. The raw medals I have will remain ungraded, until NGC or PCGS comes up with a better slab. The current NGC slab hides the rim, making the piedfort medal look similar to regular thickness ones. It is a lot more fun to hold the medals in their capsule.
I am not sure of your question.
Hi Wang,
I did show u post the mintage of the classical garden. Is that new issue after old summer palace ? Any issue date?
I am not sure of your question.
The imperial summer resort is the next medal after old summer palace?Yes. That's right.
Yes. That's right.
I have not heard any formal news from china about the imperial summer resort. Do you get any news or formal announcement?There is a QQ group that discusses these Classical Garden series medals. The plaster models of the Imperial Summer Resort have already been sent to Shanghai Mint for production.
Here is the mintage info.
Still nothing from NGC on the Yuanmingyuan population?Finally...
Finally...MS should be PF.
Total Graded: 265 MS67-13, MS68-93, MS69-153, MS70-6.
I found these pictures of Xiequyuan in antique finish. Cannot find pictures of brass or regular silver ones. Pricing info is not available at the moment. Saw an asking price of $1300 for a PF70 regular silver Xiequyuan. But it is negotiable.
I found these pictures of Xiequyuan in antique finish. Cannot find pictures of brass or regular silver ones. Pricing info is not available at the moment. Saw an asking price of $1300 for a PF70 regular silver Xiequyuan. But it is negotiable.
I found these pictures of Xiequyuan in antique finish. Cannot find pictures of brass or regular silver ones. Pricing info is not available at the moment. Saw an asking price of $1300 for a PF70 regular silver Xiequyuan. But it is negotiable.
Very nice. When will they come out? Thanks for sharing fwang.Not sure yet. The plastic model is with Shanghai Mint now. They are still scheduling its minting.
Wrong link?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rTr0ITv5laI
The pattern strikes of the Summer Resort have been minted by Shanghai Mint. Please see the pictures below, which are provided by Shanghai Mint (unofficially). The yellow one is brass, not gold.
Hey David, on the first page, the sheet that Frank posted it shows 600 stained brass.
Oops, I meant to ask about Brass Colorized. Its listed in that section but no number is noted.The latest mintage numbers of the Imperial Summer Resort medals are:
How will these medals be distributed/sold?There is a QQ group, where people can reserve the medals at the release price. But the reservation period ended at last year. What I hear is that the brass versions are extremely in demand, probably due to the low price. There are two general distributors for this set, one for the domestic market, the other for the overseas market. This is the first time the distributor model is used, and so there is no forecast what the price structure will be like.
..buy it for the sake of continue of the full set.Can you ready get the full set <end rhetorical question>. Unless there is an official authoritative report on what is produced, someone will discovered among the release a small sand, narrow door, frosted roof tile, chipped tooth, hairy nose, etc. :lol:
I agree this seems like the least interesting of the set, perhaps it will have more charm in hand?Without seeing the physical medal, it is hard to know how good it is. Only after I took high resolution pictures of this series, did I find out the superb workmanship of Yuanmingyuan (Old Summer Palace). It is my favorite. On the other hand, most people in the QQ group like Lan Ting. A PF70 Lan Ting sold for RMB 10,000 recently.
Who is "the sponsor"?
This money is not crucial for Cai for sure. However, the others helper and so on............ Y color brass, why Xie and so on and on.Some dealers have helped push up the prices of some of the low mintage medals in the series, like Xie Qu Yuan, especially on eBay. But if you find the right person, you can get them at a much lower price. I believe Bob got his Xie Qu Yuan set at a fair price.
It is really puzzle me.
A PF70 Lan Ting sold for RMB 10,000 recently.Sorry, my mistake. It was not a Lan Ting. It was a silver Xie Qu Yuan.
Hello everyone. Just joined the CCF! I am debuting on this particular thread because it provided me with critical information that helped me build up my Garden Medal collection so far. I am US based. I would describe myself best as a Collector. I however don't like throwing away money so I try to buy at reasonable prices or hope that items I purchase will appreciate in future to justify whatever I spent. In that case I might be called a Collector-Investor kind of. I haven't sold any coin or medal yet. If I do so it will be pay for the habit! I however, cannot foretell what will happen to my current collection approach in 5-10-15 years.
I wish to thank all contributors to this forum. I have learnt a lot from your postings both here and elsewhere.
I am excited about the coming release of the 5th in the Classical Garden Medal series. My only concern is that with the recent explosion in interest in these medals their prices will shoot up and they may become difficult to find or buy.
I am excited about the coming release of the 5th in the Classical Garden Medal series. My only concern is that with the recent explosion in interest in these medals their prices will shoot up and they may become difficult to find or buy.This is already occurring on US eBay thanks to a dealer who must not be named.
Welcome KeepOnTrying.This is already occurring on US eBay thanks to a dealer who must not be named.
The problem with this is a series can reach unnaturally high prices in a short period of time leaving new collectors with a bad taste in their mouth after the bubble bursts.
Wow. That is about 1,600 u.s for the one medal. A PF70 must be very rare. The only one out of 99?
N+1 I agree this will help.
Not buy from ebay can make him not inflate the price.
Better pictures of the Imperial Summer Resort medals available, in the order of silver proof, antique silver, brass proof, stained copper.
Looking Good! Thanks for the pictures. About when will these medals hit the market?There are still some details to be worked out, such as making the brass version double thick, modeling on the brass Lan Ting. I will let you know when there is a date.
Will the mirror effect lead to white spot?Like Yuanmingyuan (Old Summer Palace), there will be a rhodium coating on the silver proof, to prevent white spots.
Will the reverse side of the scenic like the long corridor which tend to white spot?
The idea of polishing the lion to mirror effect is good. How about the dragon?
If too much polish it become a bit different with all the previous one.
Anywhere since I have to continue the series. Close my both eyes buy it...
Like Yuanmingyuan (Old Summer Palace), there will be a rhodium coating on the silver proof, to prevent white spots.
The lion will not be in mirror, but the sky, the lake and archways under the bridge inside the door will be polished to mirror. Eyeballs of the lion will be polished, too. Besides, texture and shading will be added to the lion's body.
This site contains numerous images of the Chengde Mountain Resort'
http://tinyurl.com/n8x4dcz
Anyone get the real medal yet?Mountain Resort is not released yet. Will be available in a month or so.
The legendary engraver/designer Lin Feng, whose works include the Crabs and Xi Shi and the Pearl. He worked at New Century Medals Co., whose owner is Yi Shizhong, the hand engraver of the goldfish series.A man loaded with talent and achievements. Congratulations to Lin Feng for his Xi Shi with a Pearl medal design; a truly wonderful looking medal!
Here are the latest descriptions of the medal for the Mountain Resort, also known as the Imperial Summer Resort, by Lei Ting:
The ancient royal garden Mountain Resort is located beyond the Great Wall, and so is the least familiar among the Four Classical Gardens. As such, it is endowed with a sense of mystery. The architecture that combines Han, Manchurian, Mongolian and even Tibetan Buddhist styles, and the mountains, waters, towers and pavilions that embody oriental grace and elegance, are well worth exploring. In the Classical Gardens series, this medal was the one that the team gave their most attention to, with pains-taking efforts. We were lucky to have secured Ms. Yu Songmei, a well-known designer at the China Banknote Printing and Coin Minting Co, for the design of the medal. Ms. Yu studied under Rocky Zhao, who in turn was a student to Master Chen Jian. She grew up next to the gates of the Mountain Resort and knows all the landscape in the area, with a deep sense of love and belonging. She made two trips back home to refresh her memory and gain a better knowledge of the vicinity. The final design is amazing and outstanding, stemming from her refined perception and inspiration. The obverse is featured by the brass Royal Lion with Drooping Ears guarding the palace gate, and the Three-Arch Level Bridge and other scenic spots shifted over some distance into the background. The reverse starts from the Lizheng Gate in the foreground, and extends beyond the Mid-Lake Pavilion all the way across the waters and mountains of the royal garden. This medal was painstakingly and meticulously engraved by the famed folk artist Mr. Lin Feng. Even the knocker rings on the palace gate are clearly visible on the small medal. This medal is also the one in the series that took the longest time to release. The design was initiated in the beginning of 2014. The design draft was reviewed and approved by Shanghai Mint in June, thus kicking off the approval process for the project. The clay and plaster models were completed in August. The medal is to be released at the end of May, 2015. It has been a full year and a half. The pattern was struck three times. The dies were re-engraved four times and modified five times to add mirror effect to the sky and arches under the bridge, to clear out the walls of the pavilions and corridors, and to improve the waves on the lake. (The relief of the obverse and reverse was adjusted down a little from the clay model, due to the lesson learned during the Yuanmingyuan/Old Summer Palace production, which cracked more than twenty die sets.) The mintage is as follows:
Silver – Planned: 1200; Actual: 1000
Antique silver – Planned: 500; Actual: 388
Brass: 480 (planned and actual)
Stained copper: 180 (planned and actual)
A man loaded with talent and achievements. Congratulations to Lin Feng for his Xi Shi with a Pearl medal design; a truly wonderful looking medal!I also need to add the Mountain Resort medal to the accolade of Lin Feng's engraving skills. Great job!
Update to this statement in my previous post: The medal is to be released at the end of May, 2015.
Due to die cracking in production, the release time of the Mountain Resort has been delayed to early June.
looking good Frank. Can't wait to see it in hand. Thanks for sharing. I believe there is one more to come to complete the series? Thanks again.There are three more to come, two for two Suzhou gardens; the other closing medal will have all the images of the series on it.
Hey Frank are these mintage amounts still accurate? :001_tt2: 20 Copper? That thing going for about 20K? N4 Probably as much as the infamous Antique Nanjing Panda? :drool: :drool:The copper version is purely for gifts, not for sale. Those who receive it will have it for free.
The copper version is purely for gifts, not for sale. Those who receive it will have it for free.
thanks for the info. Good stuff. I'm not sure I follow your thought about the 'closing medal will have all the images...' Interesting. :001_tt1:If you remember the coin that was issued at the end of the first round of lunar coins, you will know what I mean, but I am attaching a picture for your reference.
Also, I'm sure if we see one of those 'free gifts' on eBay, it will be 10K. N20
If you remember the coin that was issued at the end of the first round of lunar coins, you will know what I mean, but I am attaching a picture for your reference.
Don't fall into the mintage trap with medals.
hello Frank, quick question, there doesn't seem to be a lot of high relief on these, BUT, obviously the image is straight on so I can't tell. Is there high relief details on these medals? Thanks much.The other side is high relief, at least as high as the Old Summer Palace/Yuanmingyuan. But they did not provide a good picture. This side is flatter because you cannot have both sides in high relief.
Please see this link for "mintage trap": http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=11367.msg66010#msg66010
Now that Bob mentioned me saying the "mintage trap", I might as well explain it a little further.
Rarity is the top priority with circulating coins, whether it is a pattern, a bank specimen, a trial strike or a survivor of melting/confiscation/aborted production run. Circulating coins are strictly controlled and regulated by the government. They normally have a humongous mintage. Circulating coins with a small mintage are exceptions and as such they are very special.
With medals, often the mintage is determined by the mint or the private group/person commissioning the medal. The mintage can be manipulated to the advantage of the sponsors/commissioners. It can be artificially very small. If we apply the same rules as those for circulating coins and blindly seek rarity with medals, we may fall into the mintage trap.
I am not saying rarity is not important with medals. The Great Wall silver medals are extremely rare and highly sought after. There are some early brass medals mostly from Shanghai Mint which have a tiny surviving mintage due to loss after their release. (Who cared about brass medals with little melting value?) Their current rarity was not intentional at the time of striking. Before someone decides to fork out a large sum of money for a new medal of a small mintage, beware of the difference between circulating coins and medals. There are tons of such medals of a small mintage out there, and more are on the way. If I see a piedfort version of the Nanjing pandas with an even smaller mintage, I won't be surprised at all. Keeping a perspective on it will save us from falling into the mintage trap.
Here is a picture of the lion side of the silver version.It will be interesting to determine which metal type best showcases this medal's attributes!
It seems Dragonzeng168 has already sold some of these.Yes. It seems the medals get snapped up soon after listing except for the silver which stays longer, probably because of the higher mintage. thincat00 also has the silver medal listed on eBay. Both sellers have the silver priced at $249 subject to bargaining. I suspect the demand will be highest for the lowest mintage (antique-colored brass) medal since that is the key for the series. Collectors who are building sets are likely going to be scrambling for the lower mintage medals.
http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=2015%20China%20Garden%20Mountain%20Resort%20Coin%20Medal&LH_PrefLoc=2&LH_Complete=1&LH_Sold=1&rt=nc&_trksid=p2045573.m1684
Hi KeepOnTrying, Thanks for your positive comment. I have heard of rumors, speculations and arguments on the release of the Mountain Resorts. I feel obliged to clarify the situation.
First, the preorders will be available at the release price. I managed to get the release price on silver proof for you instead of the distributor price. You will be refunded when I have the final cost calculated. The medals will be sent out from China tonight. When I receive them, I will send them out via priority mail.
Second, the distributor system only applies to the silver proof version. The other versions were pre-ordered. Speculations on other versions are totally groundless. But as brass and stained copper versions are few, it is extremely hard to get them because the design and workmanship have been highly favorably received. I don't know whether this is due to the new release hype, or people truly view the medals as better than those before. But with this song-singing going on, few would part with their pre-ordered brass or stained copper ones. Any difficulty obtaining versions other than silver proof has nothing to do with the distributor system.
Third, traditional dealers like Lucky were NOT given large quantities. They were treated like collectors, with the privilege of pre-ordering one or two for stained copper/brass ones, and a few for silver proof. As such, they chose to back out. That's why you do not see them selling this medal. Dragonzheng is not a dealer. He is selling from his own pre-ordered few, as well as those he can buy from other collectors. The current buying price is close to RMB1000 in China. So there is no absurd racketeering involved.
Lastly, the designs for the next two are available. I will post them separately. I believe this series is the most transparent one, due to the team work. Whether they appeal to you or others individually, it is up to each individual to make their own judgement.
Personally I like the silver one. The silver can form a set from first one till the end of the series.Collecting only the silver medals of the series is also an acceptable collection strategy. Collecting only gold or silver ensures that at least you can get the bullion value of your metal back if all things fail; the melt value of copper, brass and bronze is not much.
Brass like gold also attractive but I do not collect it. Those antique silver and matt brass not my type even is rare. I have Ymy antique silver not others.
I saw the real coin photo which is attractive for silver. However, it is definately not as good as the advertisement photo. It is different types of beauty of my personal point of view.
This brings up one or two more things concerning our participation in MCC collection. Specifically a system has to be set up to ensure that we in the West have equal access to these coin releases. It seems that only those with direct China connections get the coins on release whilst those outside China have to find ways of getting the coins often at higher cost. Can't we have a quota allocation?For your concern over the access and premium of MCCs including medals, I don't believe there is a universal solution. Coins are distributed through big distributors like Panda America. You will have to buy them at whatever premium/profit they deem possible. The privately sponsored or officially released medals do not have established overseas channels for distribution. Because of that, they are subject to price manipulation. I myself only participated in the Classical Garden series after the Old Summer Palace was released. I would say that the Mountain Resort release is the most transparent with regard to the design, minting, schedule and pricing. And I did make the arrangement with the sponsors to make the silver and antique finish ones available to people here, which is kind of an exception because that would impact the business of the distributor. With the release prices published, people here can make their own decision whether to buy or not. There are so many medals and coins released each year. Missing some is the rule rather than exception.
Secondly, I posted elsewhere sometime ago the wish that COA's are also written in English as well as Mandarin and maybe one or two more languages. Again that allows more participation in the MCC collection experience. It's not just the metal but imbibing other information including those on COA's enhances the collection experience. It also allows the non-native collector to be able to identify which COA is which especially when there are too many of them lying around.
For your concern over the access and premium of MCCs including medals, I don't believe there is a universal solution. Coins are distributed through big distributors like Panda America. You will have to buy them at whatever premium/profit they deem possible. The privately sponsored or officially released medals do not have established overseas channels for distribution. Because of that, they are subject to price manipulation. I myself only participated in the Classical Garden series after the Old Summer Palace was released. I would say that the Mountain Resort release is the most transparent with regard to the design, minting, schedule and pricing. And I did make the arrangement with the sponsors to make the silver and antique finish ones available to people here, which is kind of an exception because that would impact the business of the distributor. With the release prices published, people here can make their own decision whether to buy or not. There are so many medals and coins released each year. Missing some is the rule rather than exception.
The Classical Garden series have bilingual COAs. I translated that for the Mountain Resort and the Old Summer Palace/Yuanmingyuan.
Here is the design of the next medal in the series, Zhuozhengyuan (Humble Administrator's Garden) in Suzhou. Designed by Zhu Xihua and Quan Jianfeng, both from Shanghai Mint.
Looks different, which is one of the desired qualities in each medal of a series. But should display elements of a unified scheme i.e. Chinese architectural garden design formats. Forgive my ignorance!That is a good observation. One of the faults I find with this series is that each medal has its own design and style, with no unifying theme or design element. It is because the designers were all different, each with their own style and interpretation, and the series is experimental. Hopefully the merits of the individual medals can override this issue.
Here is the design of the next medal in the series, Zhuozhengyuan (Humble Administrator's Garden) in Suzhou. Designed by Zhu Xihua and Quan Jianfeng, both from Shanghai Mint.
That is a good observation. One of the faults I find with this series is that each medal has its own design and style, with no unifying theme or design element. It is because the designers were all different, each with their own style and interpretation, and the series is experimental. Hopefully the merits of the individual medals can override this issue.
Both sides high relief ?There is so far no talk about high relief on Zhuozhengyuan. But I would not be surprised if one side is in high relief. As you can see from Zhu Xihua's large copper works, he is an expert on high relief.
I personally prefer this than the current one. Hope the real medal as scratch design like this.
NO unify of theme and design element is existed for some series. It is pity.
Outstanding medals. Are they private mint or official mint?..........
I wish to seek clarification of the packaging of the just released Mountain Resort Medals by Shanghai Mint. Someone tells me that only the antique silver and antique brass medals come in OMP while the silver and brass medals come only in the rigid coin holder with no pliable plastic seal.I just confirmed with one of the sponsors. Here are his responses:
To avoid confusion, OMP to me means coin or medal enclosed in a circular rigid plastic coin holder which in turn is enclosed in a square shaped pliable transparent plastic pouch sealed on all four edges.
Is this true? I also notice that the COA is written in Chinese characters only. I thought there was going to be an English translation too. Thanks for your input.
I just confirmed with one of the sponsors. Here are his responses:
1. The silver proof and brass proof versions follow the packaging of panda silver coins, thirty in a sheet. So individual medals do not have the pouch. This is largely because of the finding that the pouch was partly the cause of white spots. Summer Palace silver proof medals left in the pouch developed more spots than those cut out.
2. The COA is in Chinese, but the descriptions are trilingual, in Chinese, Japanese and English.
wow trilingual...good.The slabs are still with NGC.
Frank will the slab out soon? I need one PF70 for silver
I just confirmed with one of the sponsors. Here are his responses:
1. The silver proof and brass proof versions follow the packaging of panda silver coins, thirty in a sheet. So individual medals do not have the pouch. This is largely because of the finding that the pouch was partly the cause of white spots. Summer Palace silver proof medals left in the pouch developed more spots than those cut out.
2. The COA is in Chinese, but the descriptions are trilingual, in Chinese, Japanese and English.
I agree the antique finish are great, excellent visual appeal.SANDAC, I took the same photo as you did from the same postion, 22 years later! I am trying to upload it, hopefully successfully. This is my first upload on CCF.
I found a picture of 谐趣园 or Xiequyuan I took in 1982 with my old Pentax K1000. It was late October so all lotus were dormant.
SANDAC, I took the same photo as you did from the same postion, 22 years later! I am trying to upload it, hopefully successfully. This is my first upload on CCF.
Other perspectives of the Summer Palace!
SANDAC, I took the same photo as you did from the same postion, 22 years later! I am trying to upload it, hopefully successfully. This is my first upload on CCF.
... years are racing by ...That usually what happened what you are having fun.
SANDAC, I took the same photo as you did from the same postion, 22 years later! I am trying to upload it, hopefully successfully. This is my first upload on CCF.KOT,
KOT,
Thanks for the updated pictures. 32 years went by quickly, indeed.
So what happened to the lotus in the pond? I thought viewing the lotus was the whole point of that part of the garden.
I have the 1982 version of the infamous marble boat. Look like they jazzed up the pillars with "animal prints" over last 32 years. :001_tongue:
A souvenir medal I got for 99 cents on eBay :)I bought a souvenir Great Wall "bronze" medal for my self at the foot of the hill gift shop after I stagerred down from an attempt to climb part of the Great Wall! What no one tells you before hand is that you have to train for some weeks or months as if for a marathon before trying to climb that wall!!!! At a stage it wasn't my legs doing the climbing anymore, it was my hands pulling on the rails to help propel me forward. There were frequent breaks along the way and I saw it was acceptable to sit down on the steps from time to time and pant for dear life; many others were doing the same. I climbed past most adults in the group; only those crazy kids kept on climbing. Many of them got to the summit. Going down the steps was not a cakewalk either! I am satisfied with what I achieved. I have the medal hanging by my bedside to remind me that I am one of the "heros" who have climbed the Great Wall! I probably should read what is written on that medal tonight!
Lotus is dormant until about late April, so maybe they just cleaned up the debris from last winter. Lotus should be flowering by now.I have to go back to my photo file to see what the size is. But they were taken at the same time with those photos I already uploaded. I'll look into it. Thanks.
You can upload pictures up to 3 meg in size. There is also a maximum pixel restriction of 16 megapixels, that is to say the width x height of the picture in pixels can't exceed 16 million.
I have to go back to my photo file to see what the size is. But they were taken at the same time with those photos I already uploaded. I'll look into it. Thanks.Here we go! Flowering tree at the Summer Palace Garden in early spring. The lotus was not yet blooming at the time of my visit; they are hard to miss!
But one can hardly realize how fast we will grow old.
When we become tired of our desires
and the circumstances changes,
grief will come.
What we have been interested in
will soon be a relic.
We can’t help but lament.
Whether life is long or short is up to destiny,
but it will all end in nothingness.
I came across the following interesting materials that relate to the Lan Ting Medal.
1. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six_Dynasties_poetry#/media/File:Meandering_Stream_at_Lan-ting_Yamamoto_Jakurin_Hanging_scroll_color_on_silk.jpg
A Japanese painting of the Lan Ting with what seems to be poetry and yes wine drinking going on. I must stress that impromptu poetry composition seems to have been the main feature of the exercise and no the other way round!
2. http://www.chinatouradvisors.com/blog/Appreciate-Wang-Xi-Zhis-Calligraphy-in-Lanting-2032.html
This provides additional insight into Lan Ting and associated happenings. Every year there is an International Calligraphy Festival held in Lan Ting in honor of Wang Xizhi the author of Lanting Xu. This work has been described as "the most famous piece of calligraphy work ever". You will see a photo of a modern re-enactment of the ancient game called "Qu Shui Liu Shang" during which Wang Xizhu supposedly wrote the "Orchid Pavillon", another name for Lan Ting!
NBM did you write this poem or was it by Wang Xizhu?
Wang Xizhi (王羲之), from the 1rst link.
"The "Preface (Lantingji Xu)" to the poems is particularly famous in regard to the art of calligraphy."
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lantingji_Xu
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f1/LantingXu.jpg/850px-LantingXu.jpg)
First, we didn’t manipulate the supply and demand. What we are doing is to protect the benefits of the mainland collectors. Like what trouble mentioned, the issue price is RMB700, we are now offering RMB880 to buyback from collectors. If they think we are just manipulating the supply, they can choose to sell back to us for RMB180 profit. But so far, nobody wants to sell us ! I believe collectors are clever enough to judge whether the medals worth this price.
Second, the dealers don’t earn huge profit like lucky does in the products he developed. Is USD30-50 profit considered huge profit? Then what do you think the profit of selling Nanjing Panda/Lunar goat? How ridiculous you are. Admit it, you are unhappy just because you could not get the stock at close to issue price and flip it at profit just like u did in Lunar goat and Nanjing panda!. Well, I hope I could get few pcs Nanjing Panda at issue price too. Perhaps, I need your help to get it from lucky since you are have good relationship with him.
Nobody would pay crazy price for the item that they don’t think it worth that value. Market will adjust itself.
Lastly, I saw your disclaimer. But I did see many criminals claim that they are good guys as well.
This is my last post in responding this issue. I let the others judge the facts by themselves.
KeepOnTrying,I also was not judging the man and his writing. I was just extending the commentary on age and giving my perspective. Your mention of the nothingness of man is also deep! I'll have to ruminate on that for some time. Soon this thread will change into a discussion on existentialism!!
I do not judge the writing or read quite that much into it.
I see it as an artistic expression, a point of view or experience.
It is reminiscent of other discourse I've read on the nothingness of man.
Fair enough my friend, life is short so let's make the most of it. N40No problems. I "keep on trying" to enjoy life! Time definitely flies! Perhaps it is human perception or real. The virtually continuous hard work, from childhood onwards, to succeed and become a responsible member of the society often masks the passage of time. It's almost like you have to slow down time by forcing yourself to get some leisure time!
As a collector I prefer OMP and have trust issues with NGC.Yes! I have left recent purchases in their OMP for now due that same "trust issue". However the Mountain Resort silver and brass medals are being sold without their original OMP. They are being opened (for whatever reason I still don't understand/accept) and despatched enclosed only in the rigid plastic coin holder which at times is wrapped with cling film or enclosed with a new dealer applied pliable plastic pouch!
As a long term investor most of my graded are NGC but in the last several years I have began buying PCGS. FWIW, the PCGS coins/medals seem to be consistently better looking than I have seen in NGC.
Choose your poison?
Yes! I have left recent purchases in their OMP for now due that same "trust issue". However the Mountain Resort silver and brass medals are being sold without their original OMP. They are being opened (for whatever reason I still don't understand/accept) and despatched enclosed only in the rigid plastic coin holder which at times is wrapped with cling film or enclosed with a new dealer applied pliable plastic pouch!
I don't like this because it means that the coins could now be contaminated with body oils, fluids (saliva), atmospheric pollutants and varying degrees water vapor. This is why I think I need to slab them. I am even wondering if I shouldn't send them first to NCS for "preventative" conservation (if there is anything like that) or straight to NGC/PCGS.
I like these classical garden medals. I want to make sure they are preserved in tip top condition!
An acetone soak with multiple deionized water rinses is possibly your best bet with the silver medals/coins.
Though the pictures posted of the medals being handled is concerning I have trouble giving much credence to a forum owner who calls the Chinese sponsors and dealers "Ball Sweat Monkeys".
Those are the rantings of a deranged mind IMO.
...Today, one side makes comments that yank one parties chains and they respond. Then the other party yanks chains and the other respond. Pretty soon we have a Simpson's TV show rerun.
This is the Brass/Colored Brass COA for the just newly released 2015 Mountain Resort medals. You will notice that it is a combined COA for both the brass and colored brass medal. Thus out of a total of 600 original brass medals 180 were used for the subsequent production of the colored brass medal. The practical importance of my showing this COA is to highlight the fact that your colored brass medal may have a COA# above 180!!
This is the Brass/Colored Brass COA for the just newly released 2015 Mountain Resort medals. You will notice that it is a combined COA for both the brass and colored brass medal. Thus out of a total of 600 original brass medals 180 were used for the subsequent production of the colored brass medal. The practical importance of my showing this COA is to highlight the fact that your colored brass medal may have a COA# above 180!!
This coa a bit confusion. Will the colored brass medal cao stated clearly as colored brass medal?
It is or NOT the medal is still colored brass.
A couple of fast pics taken with my phone & sized down.#2
Once again the workmanship is stunning.
OH:Incredible happenings. Very poor taste. Stopped abruptly. ?behind the scenes admonishment. Later, public denouncement. I hope the moderator here can step in on time to nip such rampage in the bud. We can't have such crass behavior or even a whiff here!
Lol!
/nailed it
All four Mountain Resort medals that are available to the public in this series side by side. From left to right are the Brass, Colored Brass, Silver and Antique Silver Medals respectively. I seem to like the antique silver the most followed by the Colored Brass medal which is warmer.
Showing the lion at the gate view:
I would have to see the antiqued finishes in my hand to be interested in owning. They do have the benefit of enhancing the smaller lines in the design but I am not convinced this adds to the actual art of the medal.I think the various finishes allow the opportunity to appreciate the design from various perspectives. Almost like adding filters to a light source and seeing different colors projected on a screen. I expect that different people will like one medal more than the other. That is the great thing about choice.
Incredible happenings. Very poor taste. Stopped abruptly. ?behind the scenes admonishment. Later, public denouncement. I hope the moderator here can step in on time to nip such rampage in the bud. We can't have such crass behavior or even a whiff here!
i wonder where the whiff of bad smells came from? N20 N18
Where can you buy these medals?
How many points did you lose?It went from 5 yesternight to 4 this AM. It just went back to 5 today. In the past it went from 3 to -1 before I complained.
All fixed then. ;-)
"Light by the door", can you explain this?
FWIW the 1rst PF70 sold for $518 US, this seems a little high IMO.
With all the "created buzz" from tainted sources and eBay's lack of transparency I have questions about this sale.
Who knows, is the box that special or is it whale season...
http://www.ebay.com/itm/151732306893
Also, the graded medals cert#'s still aren't showing up on NGC's site.
2 version of boxes one for china is what Barsenault and KOT get it.
This is overseas version box.
As heard, very little PF70.
I wish not to cited here the reason of less PF70 because worry many garden lover will shot me down immediately.
2 version of boxes one for china is what Barsenault and KOT get it.
This is overseas version box.
As heard, very little PF70.
I wish not to cited here the reason of less PF70 because worry many garden lover will shot me down immediately.
It will take a few months before we can be sure of the grading pattern of the silver medal based on NGC and PCGS statistics. However, if what you are saying is true it means that any PF70 medal that reaches the market could sell like hot potatoes. I am watching the market and learning as I go along!Not exactly. If you have more 70s than 68s, a 70 is not such a big deal.
Numismatic Reality: PF70 and MS70 coins and medals disappear from general circulation into "strong hands" and rarely reappear. Once in a while you come across one but it will be very expensive by then.
Not exactly. If you have more 70s than 68s, a 70 is not such a big deal.I am going by impressions proffered by andrewlee10; if his assertions pan out that means there will be much fewer PF70s than other grades in the Silver Mountain Resort medals. In that case PF70 silver medals will be rare.
Be careful when applying this concept of conditional/grading rarity from circulating coin collection to proof coins and medals. With circulating coins, the scale is a pyramid, with a large base and a small top. With proof coins, more often than not it is an inverted pyramid. Conditional rarity becomes a non-rarity if there are more 69s/70s than 67s/68s.
So it's whale season.
Time for me to withdraw from the pool and watch the "mintage trap" (http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=11367.msg66010#msg66010) at work.
I am going by impressions proffered by andrewlee10; if his assertions pan out that means there will be much fewer PF70s than other grades in the Silver Mountain Resort medals. In that case PF70 silver medals will be rare.I have not heard of any word about few 70s for Mountain Resort silver proof. The antique silver has very low grades, around 64.
In the larger picture this relativity is maintained whether the base of the pyramid is in the hundreds or millions. I just did a search for "2014 China 1oz Gold Panda Coin Ms70" and I got one hit. Yes, the wider the base of the pyramid the greater the demand for the coin at the top of the pyramid. But a high grade coin will always command a premium if there are few of them at the top of the pyramid.
I have not heard of any word about few 70s for Mountain Resort silver proof. The antique silver has very low grades, around 64.
I have not heard of any word about few 70s for Mountain Resort silver proof. The antique silver has very low grades, around 64.I am hearing 1rst batch had problems (hairlines, spots etc) it was suggested the poor quality medals were sent out first with the better quality being held back.
I am hearing 1rst batch had problems (hairlines, spots etc) it was suggested the poor quality medals were sent out first with the better quality being held back.
Either way, if $500 is what a PF70 costs then I will sell all mine and forget about the Classical Garden series.
Regarding the PF70's, and whether or not the 500.00 is whale price, I'm trying to think thru this one logically. In the case of proof version, which I have, if many of them look like mine, I HIGLY doubt they will score a 68...that is a big if. N17 Don't get me wrong. The details are stunning. :thumbup: The quality is HORRIBLE. :w00t: Let's just be honest. I'm sure I'm not the only one who received such a shoddy piece of work. Again, please don't hear me say that the series is bad. Or that I don't like them. I think they are amazing works or art. NO QUESTION. But seriously go back and look at my pictures. You'll see black spots, and a white sea of something on the proof side. N26 Again, I suspect I'm not the only one who received this quality. Or maybe I was the special target, wouldn't surprise me. :lol: Just having fun, in case someone thinks I'm serious. N66
Okay, all this to say, if I paid 230.00 (going price on ebay - cheapest), and I took the gamble to package, ship to NGC, and paid the fee, and it happened to score a PF70, which I'm suspecting there won't be a 'ton of PF70's', but TIME will prove me right or wrong, then why is 500.00 a 'whale price?' If there are only a few, and demand for the few is high for collectors to target PF70's for the collection, I would think $500.00 is a reasonable price yes?
After all, I would think someone paying this price today is not selling tomorrow, but is a long-term holder; and many years down the road, I suspect that this 70 will be a lot higher than 500.00 (if in fact there remains a 'few' available). But, if what Frank says is true about the Moutain Resort, that there turns out to be more 70's and 69's vs. 68/67, then these may not be as rare, and perhaps 500.00 is a bit high? N9 But the person paying 500.00 today I'm sure has thought about those things, yes? No one is forcing him/her to buy it for 500.00. They have their reasons for doing so. I don't think that should disuade anyone from continuing onward in their collection of this series? Should it? Just trying to understand is all. Thanks much.
Which is the better (more valuable) box? The China or Overseas box? If you don't answer I will shot you down immediately!!!! Hahaha ...... Lol!!!!!
It will take a few months before we can be sure of the grading pattern of the silver medal based on NGC and PCGS statistics. However, if what you are saying is true it means that any PF70 medal that reaches the market could sell like hot potatoes. I am watching the market and learning as I go along!
Numismatic Reality: PF70 and MS70 coins and medals disappear from general circulation into "strong hands" and rarely reappear. Once in a while you come across one but it will be very expensive by then.
Personally I prefer wooden box which is consistent with all previous medal of the series.
I have tried to find pf70 silver proof yuan Ming yuan with good price but fail. Price too high and many of my collectors mate in Singapore have given up to own it.
Bob, the black spots are rubs, either from shipping due to the loose capsule, or from the minting process due to the extremely high pressure needed to strike the high relief. The sandblasted high points on the dies get quickly worn out, showing the smooth surface/black spots. The Old Summer Palace/Yuanmingyuan had this problem, too, especially on the animal figure heads. See the picture below. I think grading companies ignored them. I don't grade these medals, and can live with such imperfections. That is not shoddy work, though. You are lucky if you can get the first few strikes which do not have such black spots.
I am not sure what to think about the haze on the wave side. I don't see such haze on the pictures from anyone else, or from the 8 pieces that went through my hand. Maybe it is a lighting effect?
Hey Frank and KOT, thanks for the feedback and insight...I really do appreciate it. Also, I don't mean the entire mintage is shoddy, but mine is definitely shoddy. :( As I'll show you in detail here in a few minutes. But as I said, and firmly believe, it doesn't take away from the artistic beauty of the medal...hopefully this shoddy piece sent to me was on purpose and on target, because I truly would not want anyone to get it. N2 I'm a pretty easy going guy, and just let it roll off my shoulders. I'll still grade it, and conserve it, for kicks. Probably not the best person to send, however, as I love my up close and person pictures and videos. okay, okay, just having fun with KOT. :lol:Did you say you will conserve your medal? I have been wondering if to have a "preventative" conservation done for mine before slabbing because they got to me not in the double OMP. I am concerned that pollutants may cause longterm damage if the medal is already contaminated. But conservation is also not an innocous process.
Did you say you will conserve your medal? I have been wondering if to have a "preventative" conservation done for mine before slabbing because they got to me not in the double OMP. I am concerned that pollutants may cause longterm damage if the medal is already contaminated. But conservation is also not an innocous process.Can you please provide further elucidation on your thought above. I'm an unschooled, oridnary, poor country person, and I don't follow your point. Thanks KOT. If I had a shoddy 1985 brass, I'd certainly consider selling for a price. Sure thing.
I can conserve yours by myself for free while I send mine to NCS!!!!
BTW if you ever come across a "shoddy" 1985 China 1Yuan Brass Panda coin please toss it my way!!!
barsenault,
Are these (red arrows) contact marks (such as the edge of one coin hitting this coin)? If so, it is unlikely you would receive a grade better than PF68, likely lower. I think you should return it, if so. Conservation with NCS is moot in such case.
I have tried to find pf70 silver proof yuan Ming yuan with good price but fail. Price too high and many of my collectors mate in Singapore have given up to own it.This is a good point that brings perspective to my initial sour grapes knee jerk.
Did you say you will conserve your medal? I have been wondering if to have a "preventative" conservation done for mine before slabbing because they got to me not in the double OMP. I am concerned that pollutants may cause longterm damage if the medal is already contaminated. But conservation is also not an innocous process.
I can conserve yours by myself for free while I send mine to NCS!!!!
BTW if you ever come across a "shoddy" 1985 China 1Yuan Brass Panda coin please toss it my way!!!
Can you please provide further elucidation on your thought above. I'm an unschooled, oridnary, poor country person, and I don't follow your point. Thanks KOT. If I had a shoddy 1985 brass, I'd certainly consider selling for a price. Sure thing.Sorry! Meant to be a joke, following yours. Previous posts showed I don't know how to conserve coins. Yet I offered to conserve yours while sending mine to NCS! I used your word "shoddy" to characterize a very rare coin that has been sold for more than $30,000. Even a "shoddy one" sold $10,000! So if you give me a shoddy one for free, you'll go to heaven! A shoddy mountain resort medal is still something to cherish! Lol!!
Just for information.
Price inside China
Mountain resort 3-coin, 2oz. silver, 2 oz. antique silver and brass medal set at RMB 3,000 (US$490)
http://www.coin001.com/read.php?tid=71338
Yuan Ming Yuan 3-coin, 2 oz. silver, 2 oz. antique silver and brass medal set at initial price of RMB 3,500, then lower to RMB 2,800 (US$470). Nobody takes.
Mountain resort 3 –coin set, same as previous listing at RMB 2,800 (US470)
http://www.coin001.com/read.php?tid=71254
Sorry! Meant to be a joke, following yours. Previous posts showed I don't know how to conserve coins. Yet I offered to conserve yours while sending mine to NCS! I used your word "shoddy" to characterize a very rare coin that has been sold for more than $30,000. Even a "shoddy one" sold $10,000! So if you give me a shoddy one for free, you'll go to heaven! A shoddy mountain resort medal is still something to cherish! Lol!!That really is amazing KOT. 30K? wow. 10K for a decent/shoddy one, even a greater wow. Yeah, I'm not a buyer of that thing even at 10k, even for a shoddy one. lol. Yeah, I wish I could conserve my owon coins/medals too, and apparently a china dealer has a way to conserve and guarantee for a life-time??? N3 I believe it when I see it. :thumbup: Until then, I send mine (early year medals and coins, or if they look as 'bad' as the shoddy mountain resort) in to NCS. However, after what SADAC said, I won't be sending it in...but I have 30 medals and coins coming back from NCS...can't wait to see these beauties, conserved and graded. yippeeee.
That really is amazing KOT. 30K? wow. 10K for a decent/shoddy one, even a greater wow. Yeah, I'm not a buyer of that thing even at 10k, even for a shoddy one. lol. Yeah, I wish I could conserve my owon coins/medals too, and apparently a china dealer has a way to conserve and guarantee for a life-time??? N3 I believe it when I see it. :thumbup: Until then, I send mine (early year medals and coins, or if they look as 'bad' as the shoddy mountain resort) in to NCS. However, after what SADAC said, I won't be sending it in...but I have 30 medals and coins coming back from NCS...can't wait to see these beauties, conserved and graded. yippeeee.
P.S. If anyone wants to buy my shoddy Mountain PF piece, I'd be happy to give it to you for the low price of 149.00, shipping included. :tongue_smilie: :tongue_smilie: :tongue_smilie:
Hey KOT, if this was a one off, I wouldn't be too concerned. I'm skeptical that it's just mine with issues. :( Look closely (blow up pictures) on listings found on the Internet. Look at the proof section. :blush: That's all I'm going to say, because I don't want to be accused of being ultra critical about this medal. I already have neutral karma. N2 Because as most can attest, I really do love this series! And spent thousands (money where my mouth is) on it. I have most in the series...and for some (old summer Palace) a couple. The art work is stellar. Period. End of story. As you too can attest.
Yes. It is a good idea to let the issue rest for now. In scientific terms whatever information that seems to be out there right this minute is mainly anecdotal given that this medal was just released recently. It will take a few months, at least, for the grading organizations to accumulate enough data to give preliminary impressions of the quality profile of these medals.
Even at that the grading statistics is not likely to be different from the profile we already have for prior series. NBM posted data for previous classical garden medals. Optimistically, the Mountain Resort medals, for example, may grade better than YMY but not as well as the Lan Ting medal.
I really wish that at the end of this series a PhD student will write his/her thesis on the Classical Garden medal series either from the perspective of art appreciation, art history, metallurgy or even minting technology. There are several directions you can approach such a research thesis from. The student can even spend some time with NGC and PCGS and be taken through high magnification studies of the medals.
These medals are being produced with innovative technology which for now focuses more on imprinting sculpture-like multidimensional multi-faceted images on metal with plain vanilla coin stamping action. Some medals are stamped several times to produce the final image (ala the Mammoth medal). In these circumstances aiming for perfection (MS/PF 70) is not the initial aim. I believe the aim is to transfer a composite or artists' impression of key elements of the Gardens unto the medals. It is not envisaged that the Shanghai Mint has suddenly lost their expertise in wholesome coin/medal production.
Coin and medal grading was introduced to achieve different objectives. One of them is to provide a universal nomenclature that every coin collector understands no matter where you are. So a coin classified as PF 65 will be understood to be what it is and a PF 70 coin is, well, a PF70! This allows you to perform coin transactions from a distance without worry.
Coin grading does not mean that every coin should be perfect. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and not everyone pays the same attention to the grade. In fact NGC/PCGS data shows that in many coin series less than 50% of the coins reach them for grading. We have even heard in various coin forums where members say they don't grade all their coins or medals. Many prefer them in their OMP.
If coin perfection is desired by all, 3-D printers can probably produce such in a consistent manner. In that case our medals will be soulless works of art on cold metal, every line straight and similar to the opposite side's. I prefer them to remain works produced by living beings like me and you, with all the blemishes that come from such endeavor. Thus various portions of the medal will reflect the artist's state of mind, health, concentration, mood, optimism, sadness, energy, lassitude, enthusiasm, doubt, inattention, distraction and all the thousands of factors to impact on the artist's and production team's functioning.
Let's give this medal time to land!
Well said, KeepOnTrying! We should not lose sight of the experimental nature of this series. Two oz high relief coins/medals were not frequent from China mints. Yuyuan was first made in anticipation of the 2 oz Dunhuang silver coin, as a trial project. In a sense, Lan Ting was the most banal in terms of technological innovation. That's why it received so many high grades. Later medals which made use of the deep dish or high relief designs or manual polishing were clearly imperfect in grading terms, like the bright spots in sandblasted areas, or the hairlines on antique finish Mountain Resort. But then the design and engraving well compensate for such imperfections. Hopefully collectors will value their artistic, historical and cultural aspects more than their conditions.
Well said, KeepOnTrying! We should not lose sight of the experimental nature of this series. Two oz high relief coins/medals were not frequent from China mints. Yuyuan was first made in anticipation of the 2 oz Dunhuang silver coin, as a trial project. In a sense, Lan Ting was the most banal in terms of technological innovation. That's why it received so many high grades. Later medals which made use of the deep dish or high relief designs or manual polishing were clearly imperfect in grading terms, like the bright spots in sandblasted areas, or the hairlines on antique finish Mountain Resort. But then the design and engraving well compensate for such imperfections. Hopefully collectors will value their artistic, historical and cultural aspects more than their conditions.
Frank,Shanghai Mint did not choose this series for experiment. It is the group of private collectors who demanded the different technologies, such as deep dish and high relief. Shanghai Mint just followed along. The process shows that Shanghai Mint was not prepared for the high relief on Yuanmingyuan, and did not foresee the difficulty. They cracked dozens of dies, and thought of pre-forming the blank to reduce the pressure required, which failed because of alignment issues. I guess they would not have accepted this project had they known the difficulty. But now they do have more experience, with fewer dies cracked for the Mountain Resort.
Why shanghai mints choose this series of medal as experiment and not others? I am very curious...... Is that the private investor of this series too rich and would like adventures or ?????
Bob, you got it totally mixed up. The nicer box was custom ordered by the overseas distributor located in Malaysia. I believe he ordered around 200. All the Chinese have the cookie cutter boxes.
Why not standardize? Why make some cookie cutter and others nicer. It is a little perplexing to us. And trust me, I'm not a lone voice on this one, just the one willing to put my neck on the line and have -15 karma points. I'm assuming the private investor made this purchase for his region of the world? Whereas 'our guy' took the cheaper route? If so, why? Why not one standard? I'm only asking what others want to, but are afraid to or don't want to. Thanks.Long stories short. The group decided to keep the cookie cutter style of the boxes to be consistent. There is also a cost issue. But the overseas distributor insisted on a special box for the mainly Southeast Asian market. Since this is the first time to have an overseas distributor, some room was made for him. Even the Chinese collectors are trying to grab this box.
Shanghai Mint did not choose this series for experiment. It is the group of private collectors who demanded the different technologies, such as deep dish and high relief. Shanghai Mint just followed along. The process shows that Shanghai Mint was not prepared for the high relief on Yuanmingyuan, and did not foresee the difficulty. They cracked dozens of dies, and thought of pre-forming the blank to reduce the pressure required, which failed because of alignment issues. I guess they would not have accepted this project had they known the difficulty. But now they do have more experience, with fewer dies cracked for the Mountain Resort.
When and how will the distributors (Malaysia and China) release more of these?I just asked the distributors. Their inventory is already low. Nobody is willing to sell to them and so they cannot replenish their inventory. Their offering price of the silver proof is at RMB1050 now.
Call me crazy, spiteful...etc...but I totally disagree with this approach. And I have a sneaking suspicion that many collectors of this series would agree with me, if not publicly, privately. Why not make the box available to everyone? Did it really add that much cost?It was a group decision. Please understand this is just a group of individual collectors, not some organization with great insight/foresight and decision making power. I have heard people say that they would rather be consistent. Honestly, I don't understand why the box has become such an issue. If you grade the medal, it is separated from the box anyway. Many Chinese collectors have dumped the boxes because they are too bulky.
I don't know if this has been posted before, this is such a long thread I can't scan it all, but I have noticed that my Mountain Resort Antique silver medal has a different obverse/reverse orientation compared to the silver, brass, and matte brass.This is intentional. I believe after Lan Ting, all the antique finish medals had coin orientation, so that people can tell the "true" antique finish from self-made antique finish.
The latter three have medallic orientation, where you flip the medal left to right to see the reverse in the correct position. The antique silver is the opposite, "coin orientation", where you have to flip it top to bottom.
strange...
I don't know if this has been posted before, this is such a long thread I can't scan it all, but I have noticed that my Mountain Resort Antique silver medal has a different obverse/reverse orientation compared to the silver, brass, and matte brass.
The latter three have medallic orientation, where you flip the medal left to right to see the reverse in the correct position. The antique silver is the opposite, "coin orientation", where you have to flip it top to bottom.
strange...
This is intentional. I believe after Lan Ting, all the antique finish medals had coin orientation, so that people can tell the "true" antique finish from self-made antique finish.
Now that Bob mentioned me saying the "mintage trap", I might as well explain it a little further.
Rarity is the top priority with circulating coins, whether it is a pattern, a bank specimen, a trial strike or a survivor of melting/confiscation/aborted production run. Circulating coins are strictly controlled and regulated by the government. They normally have a humongous mintage. Circulating coins with a small mintage are exceptions and as such they are very special.
With medals, often the mintage is determined by the mint or the private group/person commissioning the medal. The mintage can be manipulated to the advantage of the sponsors/commissioners. It can be artificially very small. If we apply the same rules as those for circulating coins and blindly seek rarity with medals, we may fall into the mintage trap.
I am not saying rarity is not important with medals. The Great Wall silver medals are extremely rare and highly sought after. There are some early brass medals mostly from Shanghai Mint which have a tiny surviving mintage due to loss after their release. (Who cared about brass medals with little melting concept of value?) Their current rarity was not intentional at the time of striking. Before someone decides to fork out a large sum of money for a new medal of a small mintage, beware of the difference between circulating coins and medals. There are tons of such medals of a small mintage out there, and more are on the way. If I see a piedfort version of the Nanjing pandas with an even smaller mintage, I won't be surprised at all. Keeping a perspective on it will save us from falling into the mintage trap.
The quality of Official mint medal vs. mint medal:
Most medals issued prior to 2000 are official mint products which require the approval of the People’s Bank of China or China Gold Coin Inc. After 2000, all third party commissioned medals produced by Shanghai, Shenyang, Shenzhen and Nanjing do not have the approval of the PBOC or CGCI and in practical, be called as “mint medal”, not “official mint medal” as labelled by NGC. It is my understanding that some of the "mint medals" may not made at production lines at mint for coin production. There are differences in quality control process for coin and medal if they are not produced at the same production line. IMO, there is a quality difference between “official mint medal” and “mint medal”.
"Beware of the mintage trap" is similar to what a parent or well meaning family member tells a child or younger member of the family. "Mind the gap" is frequently blasted in the British underground railway. "Be careful, all that glitters is not gold!" others may say. To the nascent collector/investor a low mintage coin or medal does not always mean a good and reliable investment or collectible piece. To the coin/medal entrepreneur, producing a low mintage coin does not automatically justify a high price tag! There are other determinants of value when considering valuation of coins and medals!
The quality of Official mint medal vs. mint medal:There was a discussion on the official mints vs private or official medal companies yesterday in a QQ group in China. In my opinion, medals are artwork. As such, the most important consideration when buying a medal is its artists, i.e. the designer and the engraver, not where it is made. In fact, in the 1990's many Liaoyin Mint medals were designed and engraved by Shenyang Mint designers and engravers (some retired, some not), including the Yungang brass medals that Bob Arsenault posted, which were designed and engraved by Song Jinming, who designed numerous base metal and precious metal coins and medals at Shenyang Mint. It is really arbitrary to say that his works at Shenyang Mint are worth collecting because they were made by an official mint, and his works at Liaoyin are second class because it was only a medal company, although owned by the government.
Most medals issued prior to 2000 are official mint products which require the approval of the People’s Bank of China or China Gold Coin Inc. After 2000, all third party commissioned medals produced by Shanghai, Shenyang, Shenzhen and Nanjing do not have the approval of the PBOC or CGCI and in practical, be called as “mint medal”, not “official mint medal” as labelled by NGC. It is my understanding that some of the "mint medals" may not made at production lines at mint for coin production. There are differences in quality control process for coin and medal if they are not produced at the same production line. IMO, there is a quality difference between “official mint medal” and “mint medal”.
Attached is an official mint medal issued in 2009 in commemorating the 60th birthday of the founding of the PRC by China Gold Coin Inc. and produced by Shenzhen Mint. This plated copper medal was received as gift when I purchased the coin set. The quality of this medal matches the coins recently produced at Shenzhen Mint.
There was a discussion on the official mints vs private or official medal companies yesterday in a QQ group in China. In my opinion, medals are artwork. As such, the most important consideration when buying a medal is its artists, i.e. the designer and the engraver, not where it is made. In fact, in the 1990's many Liaoyin Mint medals were designed and engraved by Shenyang Mint designers and engravers (some retired, some not), including the Yungang brass medals that Bob Arsenault posted, which were designed and engraved by Song Jinming, who designed numerous base metal and precious metal coins and medals at Shenyang Mint. It is really arbitrary to say that his works at Shenyang Mint are worth collecting because they were made by an official mint, and his works at Liaoyin are second class because it was only a medal company, although owned by the government.Again, great information about where and how some of our MCC coins and medals are made.
Many of the large copper medals from Shanghai Mint were outsourced to the New Century Medal Co., as Shanghai Mint does not have enough equipment for them. In the Classical Garden series, the Yuanmingyuan medals were struck at Shanghai Mint proper, with many cracked dies because Shanghai Mint was not used to high relief 2 oz medals. Because of that, the Mountain Resort medals were struck at their branch factory which mainly produce medals, large and small, and the hassle of cracked dies almost disappeared, with no compromised quality.
Enjoy the art, wherever it is made.
There was a discussion on the official mints vs private or official medal companies yesterday in a QQ group in China. In my opinion, medals are artwork. As such, the most important consideration when buying a medal is its artists, i.e. the designer and the engraver, not where it is made. In fact, in the 1990's many Liaoyin Mint medals were designed and engraved by Shenyang Mint designers and engravers (some retired, some not), including the Yungang brass medals that Bob Arsenault posted, which were designed and engraved by Song Jinming, who designed numerous base metal and precious metal coins and medals at Shenyang Mint. It is really arbitrary to say that his works at Shenyang Mint are worth collecting because they were made by an official mint, and his works at Liaoyin are second class because it was only a medal company, although owned by the government.
Many of the large copper medals from Shanghai Mint were outsourced to the New Century Medal Co., as Shanghai Mint does not have enough equipment for them. In the Classical Garden series, the Yuanmingyuan medals were struck at Shanghai Mint proper, with many cracked dies because Shanghai Mint was not used to high relief 2 oz medals. Because of that, the Mountain Resort medals were struck at their branch factory which mainly produce medals, large and small, and the hassle of cracked dies almost disappeared, with no compromised quality.
Enjoy the art, wherever it is made.
To add to the complexity, after 1992, most medals from Shanghai Mint were managed by Shenquan Trading Co, a subsidiary of Shanghai Mint. They were not struck at Shanghai Mint proper, but in two satellite factories away from the Shanghai Mint campus. These facilities are specially equipped with presses to strike large size and thick medals, something Shanghai Mint has little use for in their production of circulating coins and precious metal coins. These two facilities even have their own designers and engravers. But medals from these two satellite facilities are still considered "official mint medals".
Now that you explained that, i am still lost. It will take a lot of research to understand what/where/who for each MCC. The debate of private vs official is muddy water not clear. Most of us will just sit back and let others figure it out........the art is fantastic.....
By Lei Ting
(This article was written by Lei Ting, who is one of the organizers of the Chinese Classical Garden series of medals. Pictures of Yuanmingyuan and Lan Ting are attached below.)
1. Yuyuan
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2．Lan Ting[/b
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3. Summer Palace
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4. Yuanmingyuan
Time flies. Yuanmingyuan, the "garden of all gardens", quickly moved onto the radar screen of the development team. It had a glorious past. Therefore it became the top priority of the Classical Garden series. But today all that was left of the garden are just ruins. How can the past glory be represented? This thought weighed on our mind as well as on the mind of the three most outstanding designers of Shanghai Mint. After collective brainstorming, it was finally decided to draw inspirations from the painting Forty Scenes of Yuanmingyuan by the imperial painters of Emperor Qianlong – Tang Dai, Shen Yuan and Leng Mei, as well as the copperplate European Palace in Yuanmingyuan by Giuseppe Castiglione. Combined with designs drawn from onsite observations by the designers, a grandiose medal was finally accomplished with Chinese style landscape and the Hall of National Peace on the obverse, and the ruins of the Water Wonder on the reverse.
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5. Imperial Summer Resort (to be continued)
There was a discussion on the official mints vs private or official medal companies yesterday in a QQ group in China. In my opinion, medals are artwork. As such, the most important consideration when buying a medal is its artists, i.e. the designer and the engraver, not where it is made. In fact, in the 1990's many Liaoyin Mint medals were designed and engraved by Shenyang Mint designers and engravers (some retired, some not), including the Yungang brass medals that Bob Arsenault posted, which were designed and engraved by Song Jinming, who designed numerous base metal and precious metal coins and medals at Shenyang Mint. It is really arbitrary to say that his works at Shenyang Mint are worth collecting because they were made by an official mint, and his works at Liaoyin are second class because it was only a medal company, although owned by the government.
Many of the large copper medals from Shanghai Mint were outsourced to the New Century Medal Co., as Shanghai Mint does not have enough equipment for them. In the Classical Garden series, the Yuanmingyuan medals were struck at Shanghai Mint proper, with many cracked dies because Shanghai Mint was not used to high relief 2 oz medals. Because of that, the Mountain Resort medals were struck at their branch factory which mainly produce medals, large and small, and the hassle of cracked dies almost disappeared, with no compromised quality.
Enjoy the art, wherever it is made.
There was a discussion on the official mints vs private or official medal companies yesterday in a QQ group in China. In my opinion, medals are artwork. As such, the most important consideration when buying a medal is its artists, i.e. the designer and the engraver, not where it is made. In fact, in the 1990's many Liaoyin Mint medals were designed and engraved by Shenyang Mint designers and engravers (some retired, some not), including the Yungang brass medals that Bob Arsenault posted, which were designed and engraved by Song Jinming, who designed numerous base metal and precious metal coins and medals at Shenyang Mint. It is really arbitrary to say that his works at Shenyang Mint are worth collecting because they were made by an official mint, and his works at Liaoyin are second class because it was only a medal company, although owned by the government.
Many of the large copper medals from Shanghai Mint were outsourced to the New Century Medal Co., as Shanghai Mint does not have enough equipment for them. In the Classical Garden series, the Yuanmingyuan medals were struck at Shanghai Mint proper, with many cracked dies because Shanghai Mint was not used to high relief 2 oz medals. Because of that, the Mountain Resort medals were struck at their branch factory which mainly produce medals, large and small, and the hassle of cracked dies almost disappeared, with no compromised quality.
Enjoy the art, wherever it is made.
To add to the complexity, after 1992, most medals from Shanghai Mint were managed by Shenquan Trading Co, a subsidiary of Shanghai Mint. They were not struck at Shanghai Mint proper, but in two satellite factories away from the Shanghai Mint campus. These facilities are specially equipped with presses to strike large size and thick medals, something Shanghai Mint has little use for in their production of circulating coins and precious metal coins. These two facilities even have their own designers and engravers. But medals from these two satellite facilities are still considered "official mint medals".
If you are still confused, just follow the artists. Who cares whether a medal is struck at Shanghai Mint proper or by one of the satellite factories or outsourced to a third party private mint?
Of course i am still confused as i live in the West. Could you & poconopen or others make a list of famous artists and MCC they designed? Maybe add a date & photos too. If we had a list of artists to print and look at, it would make it alot easier to understand.
Yin Guoging museum has one impressive collection. Wow.......
25% to 30% defect rate when minting? I had no clue it was that high of %......
Of course i am still confused as i live in the West. Could you & poconopen or others make a list of famous artists and MCC they designed? Maybe add a date & photos too. If we had a list of artists to print and look at, it would make it alot easier to understand.
Yin Guoging museum has one impressive collection. Wow.......
25% to 30% defect rate when minting? I had no clue it was that high of %......
There is no question that the early medals spared no efforts for perfection. But some recent medals were worked on painstakingly. It took Zhu Xihua more than a year to finish his Mammoth copper medal. Even the engraving of Yuanmingyuan took two Shanghai Mint top engravers half a year, which is witnessed in the great details of the medal.
When you have chance to see many medals minted during last 35 years by China Mint, you will see the differences in quality of the artistic design and minting technique. For example, the original 1984 great wall copper medal shows a much better 3-dimensional details. The stone bricks on the wall have different shape and size. The frosty treatment gives a different shades to provide a clear 3-dimensional details. This type of frosty treatment has not been seen in the mountain resort series or any recently minted medals. It takes time and skill, and requires a higher budget, to produce frosty surface with different shades. Third party commissioned medals were produced for profit or in commemorating to certain event or person, usually with a lower budget, unlike official mint medals, which were supported by China Gold Coin Inc. could afford to use the best technology available.
Got an idea! Why don't we start a new thread dedicated to the artists and engravers behind these MCC coins and medals? It will act as some type of database or fact file that will not be lost in other threads and can be directly acessible. I'll start the thread and see how it goes. Here we go!I have been thinking about such a database for some time. Starting a thread here on CCF is easy, but it will make searching difficult. Besides, pictures are not allowed in the posts, which limits their use as I intend to post photos of the artists.
I have been thinking about such a database for some time. Starting a thread here on CCF is easy, but it will make searching difficult. Besides, pictures are not allowed in the posts, which limits their use as I intend to post photos of the artists.
I started a thread already. We can always migrate information later on to anywhere else on this forum if that is what you mean. I don't know if I misread you. Do you mean to say that we cannot post photos here on CCF? I see a lot of photos here already. Please clarify and thanks.The photos are attachments. You cannot post them in the post itself, unless it is a link from elsewhere.
2 weeks and all is quiet?
FWIW, NGC & PCGS have the Summer Palace Gate census up.
PCGS seems to be kinder in grading the antique silver?
The sold listings on eBay seem to indicate around 6 more sales of the medals in the last 2 weeks.
2 weeks and all is quiet?
FWIW, NGC & PCGS have the Summer Palace Gate census up.
PCGS seems to be kinder in grading the antique silver?
The sold listings on eBay seem to indicate around 6 more sales of the medals in the last 2 weeks.
Has anyone source information on recent happenings in this medal series? I have come across information on the internet and forums regarding the next medal in the series and some unusual mintage plans. I'll tap my sources for more information later on.
Here is the design of the next medal in the series, Zhuozhengyuan (Humble Administrator's Garden) in Suzhou. Designed by Zhu Xihua and Quan Jianfeng, both from Shanghai Mint.(http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=11056.0;attach=31639;image)
It seems that, each year, the mintage goes down for the current year's medal. Is that an indication of poor sales and successively lower demand, or something else?
I bought the 2010 Yu yuan medal but have not purchased any since. The medal is beautiful, howevwr, I decided not to make a habit of paying big premiums for medals.
What happened to the Zhuozhengyuan you spoke of in June?It will be minted next year.
(http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=11056.0;attach=31639;image)
Just for information
Recent auction results at zhaooline for some post-2010 low mintage medals. The price given includes buyer's premium.
PRC, 2014, Blooming Flowers-Draong and Phoenix 1oz silver medal set in NGC holders (graded PF69 Ultra Cameo, with certificate and box, mintage 666 pieces).
http://english.zhaoonline.com/detail/auction-3438672-detail.shtml ($166.68)
PRC, 2013, Chinese Garden-Lan ting 2oz silver proof medal in NGC holder (graded PF69, with certificate, specifications and original box, mintage 2,000 pieces).
http://english.zhaoonline.com/detail/auction-3451880-detail.shtml ($365.05)
PRC, 2015, Classic Gardens-Summer Palace Gate 2oz silver proof medal in NGC holder (graded PF69 Ultra Cameo, with certificate and original box, mintage 1,200 pieces)
http://english.zhaoonline.com/detail/auction-3450840-detail.shtml ($319.19)
PRC, 2010, Classic Gardens-Yuyuan Yangshan Tang 2oz silver proof medal in NGC holder (graded PF68, with certificate and original box, mintage 2,010 pieces).
http://english.zhaoonline.com/detail/auction-3435821-detail.shtml ($164.54)
PRC, 2015, Sacred Buddhist Mountains-Songzi Guanyin 2oz silver medal (with certificate and original box, mintage 199 pieces).
http://english.zhaoonline.com/detail/auction-3448181-detail.shtml ($106.37)
PRC, 2013, Sacred Buddhist Mountains-Mt. Wutai Wenshu 80g silver medal (with certificate and box, mintage 999 pieces).
http://english.zhaoonline.com/detail/auction-3440162-detail.shtml ($114.68)
PRC, 2014, Guanyin Offering Water 2oz silver proof medal in NGC holder (graded PF70 Ultra Cameo, with certificate and box, mintage 199 pieces)
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http://english.zhaoonline.com/detail/auction-3439642-detail.shtml ($219.39)
PRC, 2010, Classic Gardens-Yuyuan Yangshan Tang 2oz silver proof medal in NGC holder (graded PF68, with certificate and original box, mintage 2,010 pieces).
http://english.zhaoonline.com/detail/auction-3435820-detail.shtml ($122.92)
PRC, 2014, 1st Macau International Coins & Precious Metals Expo 1.5g gold + 30g silver bi-metallic proof medal in NGC holder (graded PF69 Ultra Cameo, with certificate, mintage 300 pieces).
http://english.zhaoonline.com/detail/auction-3399745-detail.shtml ($124.65)
PRC, 2014, Shanghai Mint, Classic Garden-Summer Palace Corridor 2oz silver medal (diameter 40mm, with certificate and original box, mintage 1,500 pieces).
http://english.zhaoonline.com/detail/auction-3392542-detail.shtml ($151.21)
PRC, 2014, 2nd Panda Coin Collection Expo-Giant Panda 2oz piedfort silver medal in NGC holder (graded MS70, with certificate and original box, mintage 299 pieces).
http://english.zhaoonline.com/detail/auction-3388897-detail.shtml ($169.53)
Time now is 1.33AM EST USA. Can't log unto those sites. Have always had problems logging unto many China based sites. What is the best time to log on? Thanks.I have no problem accessing them right now.
I have no problem accessing them right now.
It will be minted next year.
Thank you Frank.Did I say that Zhuozhengyuan would come this year? The Mountain Resort was released in June, and so it is not likely another will be released this year.
This was a change of plans? Did you hear any discussion on how this came about?
No but you did refer to it as next and the release of information on the Geyuan looks like it is now next?
Please forgive me if I am confused or have assumed incorrectly.
I believe that you were correct in assuming that the next planned medal in the classical garden series was going to be the Humble Administrator's Garden of Suzhou. I however assumed that it was going to be released in 2016 as there was no information stating otherwise.
This new medal that just burst into the scene, Guyuan Garden, appears to have been planned for the coin exchange and plugged into the Classical Garden theme as a matter of convenience or on second thoughts.
Let us hope they put the time and effort in minting this that the series deserves, I'd hate to see it tainted with a rush job on someone's marketing scheme. :001_rolleyes:
Let us hope they put the time and effort in minting this that the series deserves, I'd hate to see it tainted with a rush job on someone's marketing scheme. :001_rolleyes:
That's always the risk with such mintages. Only time will tell. For now the photos could give a hint of how complex or well thought out the design is and whether it adds something new to what the medal series is trying to convey. Is the Guyuan Garden important enough to merit a medal; anything new? I'll have a more detailed look at the medal later in the day although I am no expert in art appraisal!
Here is the translation of the Geyuan Garden description:
6 Geyuan Garden, by Lei Ting
Gardens in the city of Yangzhou have been highly applauded. In the Qing Dynasty, Yangzhou gardens were praised as "best under the sun". In his "Anecdotes on Yangzhou", Li Dou mentioned that "Hangzhou excels in its lakes and mountains; Suzhou in its markets; and Yangzhou in its gardens. The three cities each have its own characteristics, no more and no less than the others." Among the Yangzhou gardens, the most historic, best preserved and most artistic one is the Geyuan Garden, located in the northwest part of this ancient city. The garden took its name from the line by the poet Yuan Mei: "Bamboo under the moon casts thousands of 个 (a Chinese character resembling the shape of bamboo leaves, pronounced as "ge" -translator) on the ground." The Geyuan Garden features bamboo and rockeries, creating various landscape with rocks. It has rockeries for four seasons: the Spring Rockery features rocks in the shape of bamboo shoots. The Summer Rockery is hollow inside, but uniquely shaped outside. The Fall Rockery is made of yellow rocks, surrounded by crimson maple trees. The Winter Rockery uses pale rocks (quartz - translator) from the Xuancheng area, to create snow-like landscape in winter. The South Wall next to the Winter Rockery has openings in it, for producing sounds mimicking howling wind in winter. In contrast, the circular windows on the West Wall reveal a tint of spring. How can this important link in the history of Chinese gardens be left out of our Classical Garden Series? After serious considerations, the leader of the Design and Engraving Group of Shanghai Mint, Xie Xingrui, was entrusted with the design job, and Lin Feng, the highly respected engraving in the industry, took up engraving. On the small surface of the medal, one can see slender bamboo casting its shadow, a clear pond enshrouded in serenity, rugged rockery standing tall and fish jumping out of water, sending ripples across.
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I just confirmed with one of the sponsors. This is a typo. Should be 0.999.
Liu Yuan, which will be released next year, has its plaster model made.
So what's happening? I thought the Humble Administrator's Garden was going to be next then Geyuan burst upon us and now Liuyuan Garden. Will the Administrator medal be minted in 2016? Thanks for clarification.I just asked. It looks that Liu Yuan will come before the Humble Administrator's Garden, although the COA of the latter is dated before Liu Yuan.
2015 Mountain Resort (Summer Palace Gate) Medal Grading (as of July 25, 2015)
I have tabulated the grading data referred to by NBM to allow easier visual interpretation leading to the following impressions:
1. Approximately 20% of the mintage have been graded so far by NGC and PCGS.
2. About 32% of the Silver Proof medals that have been graded scored PF70. This is already proportionately and numerically better than the Yuanmingyuan grading for the same proof silver medal. (YMY has only six PF70s out of a total of 274 graded so far).
3. Please note that the population of the Summer Palace Gate silver proof medals that has been graded so far may or may not be representative of the total silver proof medals. Dealers, sellers and enthusiasts may have cherry picked medals to send for grading at this early stage. However, this assertion could be inaccurate because other medal classes did not grade as well as the silver proof medal; so were they also cherry picked?!
4. You may have to send your silver proof medals to NGC for grading to improve your chances of getting a PF70 grade! This is scientific not just humor. With the number of PF69s and PF70s graded so far NGC is likely to be more confident grading this medal PF69/70 if their established criteria are met.
5. The PCGS grading profile for the Brass, Silver Matte and Brass Matte medals is better than that of NGC. I have heard it said before that PCGS is more confident and better skilled at grading exotic and expensive coins and medals compared to NGC. I don't know if this is what is at play here but there is a clear difference between the two grading companies here.
6. A total of 63 Silver Matte medals were graded PF64 by NGC! While accepting the competence and professionalism of NGC I must comment that this disproportionately poor grading by NGC does not make sense especially when compared to the grading profile for PCGS. I am not ordinarily an advocate of cracking out your coin and sending for regrading but the wide discrepancy here may be an argument for regrading these medals at PCGS.
7. Seems like you probably should send all non-silver proof Summer Palace Gate medals to PCGS for grading for a more favorable/?realistic grading outcome.
8. Finally, this preliminary grading profile of the Summer Palace Gate medal should assist with buying decisions online.
I saw the Yeyuan Medal on eBay this morning; ungraded, PF69 and PF70. Has it been launched in China? Will update later.items number:151915467801 & 151915678687
PSed version.Oh.My...
Screen shots of the 2015 Geyuan 2oz silver Medal.Anyone notice the markings between the 2 lower birds on the water?
Anyone notice the markings between the 2 lower birds on the water?They are supposed to be the reflections of the pavilion. They do not look like such on the photo. Not sure how they will look in hand.
They are on the die as well.
They are supposed to be the reflections of the pavilion. They do not look like such on the photo. Not sure how they will look in hand.
PSed version.
Frank,Yes. That's her.
Can you confirm the woman in your picture is Teresa Teng?
Frank,
Can you confirm the woman in your picture is Teresa Teng?
Yes. That's her.
Geyuan Silver Census is showing at NGC
Some pictures I took of Geyuan silver and brass proof.
Liuyuan's medal's pattern strike
Liuyuan's medal's pattern strike
Do you have the release date and mintage information?There is no release date yet as the pattern is still being reviewed and critiqued by the group. If anyone has any suggestions, please let me know. At the moment two major complaints have been raised: the boat is too stiff and the rock is too solid, not as slim, as hollowed as the one it is modeled on:
There is no release date yet as the pattern is still being reviewed and critiqued by the group. If anyone has any suggestions, please let me know. At the moment two major complaints have been raised: the boat is too stiff and the rock is too solid, not as slim, as hollowed as the one it is modeled on:
Thanks for the finding. Geyuan is not in the Summer Palace. The two gardens are not even in the same place. The Summer Palace is in Beijing, while Geyuan is in Yangzhou, more than 1000 kilometers to the south. Apparently the designer picked the plate and liked the design, and used it on the Geyuan medal. This was a project by Shanghai Mint, not sponsored by the team, and therefore the design was not scrutinized. It is a wrong medal, in that sense. The artist who designed the plate is still alive, and there may be copy right issues. We will see.
This is like de-ja-vu all over again! I did a double take when my browser picked this up on eBay. It is part of an Imperial Jingdezhen porcelain eight-plate series depicting “Scenes from the Summer Palace”. This was designed by Zhang Song Mao and the plate produced in 1989. This particular plate is #5 in the series. Looks similar to the scene depicted on one side of the 2015 Geyuan Classical Garden Medal. Did the medal and porcelain plate designers use the same source material for their design or was the medal designed from the plate’s artwork? I am not aware that the Geyuan Garden is part of the Summer Palace. Clarification needed. The colors on the plate design provide more vibrancy to what is depicted on the medal. Looks good! Attached photos provide side-by-side comparisons.
I used to own the plate (and the whole set). :) I sold them coz the plates are not hand-painted. I believe that the medal is designed from Songmao Zhangs's orignal artwork.
Please can you confirm whether the scene depicted on plate#5 as referred to above is from the Summer Palace Garden or from the Geyuan Garden. Thanks.
From Summer Palace, not from Geyuan Garden.
Thanks for clarification. I "stumbled" upon this discovery by chance but now that we are here the question has to be asked. What does this mean for the 2015 Geyuan Medal? Withdrawal/Recall by the Mint? Recharacterization? Renaming (2015 Xiequyuan Geyuan Medal, for example). Continue as "usual"? Has this happened before? What are the precedents? Where do we go from here?
Some people actually call the Geyuan medal as Xiequyuan. Yes, you are right, the Shanghai mint made a mistake by using the scene of Xiequyuan on the obverse of the Geyuan medal (or in other way, they mis-describe the Xiequyuan as Geyuan in the certificate). It's a shame but what you can do is to buy as much as you could. One day the price would soar for the "error" medal, who knows? :)
6 on the medal means Chinese Classical Gardens. This is the wording that occurs on all the Classical Garden medals.
Despite the differences you pointed out, I believe the designer did a pretty good job in transforming a 2D painting into a 3D image.
After serious considerations, the leader of the Design and Engraving Group of Shanghai Mint, Xie Xingrui, was entrusted with the design job...Xie Xingrui has some splaining to do. :lol:
Xie Xingrui has some splaining to do. :lol:It turned out that he was not exactly responsible. Someone else provided the picture without double checking.
It turned out that he was not exactly responsible. Someone else provided the picture without double checking.
It turned out that he was not exactly responsible. Someone else provided the picture without double checking.
I hope the Chinese government will release a coin or medal commemorating this garden complex when complete.
The garden series is not "official", as far as I know it was sponsored by private collectors. I would be wrong though.
Wow! Thanks NBM. This info is overwhelming. I guess I'm late to the party. Sad. That Lan Ting piece has to be one of the best art pieces I've ever seen (so far). Anyone selling them? I'm sure they are impossible to get?
Also, I see there is a set called the XIE. Does anyone have one of those. I'm sure these too are impossible to find. Any advice I'm ears.
Thanks fwang. It appears you know something about the new one coming out. Do you know when?
I'm going to look at the Lan Ting. That is quite a piece. The one with the gate ain't bad either. Actually they are all great.
I see what you mean keep, but it is still nice. Not 10k nice, but maybe 1k nice. :-) What is an accidental mintage mean? That seems like an oddity?
From the accounts you will read on this thread it was initially planned to use the Xiequyuan as one side of the Summer Palace Garden Medal. However they later on decided to use the Long Corridor design for that medal instead. But instead of discarding all the work that went into designing the Xiequyuan side someone had the brilliant idea of minting a limited (99 piece) run as the Summer Palace Xiequyuan Medal. I believe that is the "accidental mintage" fwang referred to.N31
Both Yiheyuan and Yuanmingyuan were destroyed twice by foreign invaders. I have always wondered why the former was rebuilt (on both occasions) whilst the latter was not. One possible answer is that Empress Dowager Cixi needed to keep her powerbase/refuge at Yiheyuan intact unlike Yuanmingyuan which was not essential for her political survival. It was also going to be prohibitively expensive to rebuild both at the same time. In fact she had to divert funds meant for the navy to do the restoration of Yiheyuan. Does anyone have additional insight into this? Thanks.You are really digging into the history of these gardens. From what I know, it would be impossible to rebuild Yuanmingyuan, which took 150 years to complete, covering an area 1/5 larger than Yiheyuan, seen as the Garden of all Gardens. It would be beyond the financial means and technical skills of that time.
The Liuyuan medals have now left the mint apparently en-route to the dealers. I have seen photos of the medals and note that ALL the medal types are enclosed in double OMP and as sheets including the silver medals. I hope these silver medals are not removed from their OMP as has been done for recent releases. I do not know of any scientific reason that removal of silver coins and medals from OMP prevents white spots. Rather the opposite is the generally held belief. This is an appeal to the medal sponsors not to remove the pliable plastic part of the OMP. Some collectors like storing their coins and medals in intact OMP instead of being forced to send them off for grading and encapsulation because they arrived already disrupted.The proof versions of Yuanmingyuan, Geyuan and the Mountain Resort were never TAKEN OUT of the soft pouch. They were never put in there, because of the concern of white spots. This time the sponsors are encouraging collectors to cut them out if not graded immediately, to avoid this problem. The soft pouch was added this time probably to prevent the capsule from opening during shipping.
The proof versions of Yuanmingyuan, Geyuan and the Mountain Resort were never TAKEN OUT of the soft pouch. They were never put in there, because of the concern of white spots. This time the sponsors are encouraging collectors to cut them out if not graded immediately, to avoid this problem. The soft pouch was added this time probably to prevent the capsule from opening during shipping.
As for the validity of the soft pouch contributing to white spots, our previous moderator badon had a theory, and the Classical Garden medals' team claimed that it was their experience with the Summer Palace.
What is the approximate release date for this medal?Probably end of the year. The mintage is unknown at the moment.
Is there any information on the planned mintage and metal types for this medal?
Thanks.
Is a progressively decreasing actual mintage of "regular" silver medals a sign that interest is waning for this series?
As you know, the decisive factor is not the camera, but the skill. The pictures above were taken using an old Nikon D80.
I was disappointed when I saw the early pictures taken with cell phones, thinking how bad the engraving was. The rock appeared flat and lifeless. The foliage was a blob. But as you can see from these pictures, there are a lot of details in the rock and the foliage behind. These pics have done some justice to the work of the designers/engravers.
I would just like some dialogue on this problem that numerous people are having with KOT and certain moderators.
I understand that a book is being planned by the organizers of the Chinese Classical Garden medal series. I have confirmed this with fwang2450. The book is expected to be released before the end of 2016.It will be in Mandarin only. No plan to translate it.
I have not verified whether it will be printed in Mandarin, English or both.
Here are the plaster models of the ongoing Zhuozhengyuan medals, engraved by Lin Feng.
If you face south while at the Long Corridor you will get this view of Kunming Lake with Nanhu Island and the 17-Arch bridge in the distance. Visibility was poor that day.Thank you for sharing the shots of your trip, you were there recently?
Thank you for sharing the shots of your trip, you were there recently?
Here are the plaster models of the ongoing Zhuozhengyuan medals, engraved by Lin Feng.
Do you have an update on the Humble Administrator's Garden medal?The Humble Administrator's Garden medals will be produced in the next couple of months. Shanghai Mint is on summer vacation these days :)
Is there a design proposal yet for the final medal?
Thanks.
Nice design. Fwang, you have not added to your translation Blog in some time. Will you get back to translating articles?.........Thanks for asking. I am doing more English to Chinese translation these days. Coin pics also take a lot of time.
Thanks for asking. I am doing more English to Chinese translation these days. Coin pics also take a lot of time.That was you? Thank you!
Latest update on Humble Administrator's Garden (Zhuozhengyuan): samples have been made. Please see the attached pictures. The final versions will not be very different.
Fwang, did Lei Ting or the artists for the Zhuozhengyuan medal do any write up for the medal? It's always nice to read about their thoughts with regards to the cultural, historical and design aspects of those Chinese Classical Garden medals.There is no write-up at this moment for this medal.
Using data from fwang2450’s tables I have complied another Table to illustrate trend lines for all the medal types.
The spike in mintage numbers for the Summer Palace Corridor and Yuanmingyuan medals is accounted for mainly by increased mintage of the brass H85 and Gilt Brass medals respectively.
The key medals* for Lan Ting, Mountain Resort and Liuyuan Gardens are much sought after. I am not sure of the situation with other key medals.
Once the last medal of the series is released in 2017 there should be a better picture of how well the whole series has done.
*The gold and copper medals are not generally available to the public (apart from the Xiequyuan medal) and cannot be regarded as key medals.
Here is an updated table showing the actual mintages of the Classical Chinese Garden Medals. The final medal is slated for release in 2017. Meanwhile the Zhuozhengyuan medal should be hitting the streets soon!
It is an anniversary edition, or final in the series?
I suppose they've stuck with the decision to mint this in only the 20 oz size?You can see that this design calls for a large medal. Smaller surfaces won't be able to show all the details of the previous medals. This is a summary, so to speak, of the previous ones.
It seems sad they would end their series this way, any ideas why they chose to do this?
I suppose they've stuck with the decision to mint this in only the 20 oz size?
It seems sad they would end their series this way, any ideas why they chose to do this?
You can see that this design calls for a large medal. Smaller surfaces won't be able to show all the details of the previous medals. This is a summary, so to speak, of the previous ones.
Anyone know if these were apart of the original variations? Anyone have additional information on whether the series continues or is it ended? My understanding is that some Chinese lady purchased the rights to the series? She tried to continue beyond the initial series after the 20 oz version was complete, and it was met with lukewarm results? And apparently a lot of collectors and die hard fans are upset about her going back in adding variations to the 1st in the series YuanYuan? Anyway, I saw these recently, and I don’t remember seeing them before. Thoughts?As far as I know, this series has ended. I have not heard of any Chinese lady purchasing rights to the series. Yes, many in the group were deeply upset about the issuing of the different formats of the original Yuyuan medal, which only had the silver version. I am one of them. For that reason, I am done with Shanghai Mint's current day issues.
Thank you fwang. Sorry for not being clear about the Mountain Resort pieces. Although it is disappointing that they went back and restruck different types, the beauty of this series is still amazing. I’ve read through the thread to understand the complexity of the series and how difficult some of these were to mint - broken dies - the labor involved to produce these pieces is quite impressive. I saw this On ebay: Shanghai Mint ShuiHui Classical Garden. Is this not a continuation of the series or is it considered garden series 2 or is not related at all?Long story short, the medal in the pictures was commissioned by the local government where the garden is, instead of being sponsored by the Classical Garden medals team. It was supposed to have been minted before the Classical Garden series, but then those who commissioned it agreed to postpone the release till the Classical Garden series was completed. So it is like an appendage, adopting the name of the Classical Garden series. It is sometimes called Classical Garden Series 2, but nobody takes that seriously, because it is the only medal in the series.