Author Topic: Fatman dollar 1914-common but rare...  (Read 78891 times)

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Offline KONDi

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Re: Fatman dollar 1914-common but rare...
« Reply #30 on: February 17, 2013, 10:30:22 PM »
Dear all,

I discovered new YSK variety recently. On picture nr 28 you can see another private version of YSK silver dollar from 1914. So what is characteristic for this variety? Well, on the obverse you can see that the way of Yuan Shih Kai is looking and direction where is looking is different compare to the other private varieties. Also under his eye that part (I don't know how to call it) it is fatter and bigger than on other varieties. I also think that on his ear, that lower part of his ear (the part which women pierce to wear earrings) is a little bit fatter. The edge is thiner than on the other YSK private varieties. This variety doesn't have a name. It weights only 26,01g and diameter is 39mm. Rare type.
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Offline gerald

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Re: Fatman dollar 1914-common but rare...
« Reply #31 on: February 17, 2013, 11:21:58 PM »
I'll help with the name - "baggy eye and fat ear lobe" variety :)

Offline KONDi

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Re: Fatman dollar 1914-common but rare...
« Reply #32 on: February 17, 2013, 11:34:06 PM »
Dear gerald,

Thank you for your help:)
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Offline gerald

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Re: Fatman dollar 1914-common but rare...
« Reply #33 on: February 17, 2013, 11:53:53 PM »
KONDi - thank you for starting this thread, it is immensely interesting :)

Offline KONDi

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Re: Fatman dollar 1914-common but rare...
« Reply #34 on: February 18, 2013, 01:05:44 AM »
Dear gerald,

You are welcome! The pleasure is always on my side:)
KONDi
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Offline happycoins II

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Re: Fatman dollar 1914-common but rare...
« Reply #35 on: February 18, 2013, 01:40:55 AM »
Interesting findings. However, still wondering what it would look like in a mint condition (which would show us a clearer picture of the variety)? :(

Offline poconopenn

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Re: Fatman dollar 1914-common but rare...
« Reply #36 on: February 18, 2013, 10:42:16 AM »
Interesting findings. However, still wondering what it would look like in a mint condition (which would show us a clearer picture of the variety)? :(

+1

It is dangerous to claim the discovery of a new variety when the coin itself is in VG-F condition. Based on the picture of reedings, the chance of this coin being fake is greater than being a new variety.

Offline KONDi

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Re: Fatman dollar 1914-common but rare...
« Reply #37 on: February 18, 2013, 11:52:59 AM »
Dear all,

I realize that some varieties of YSK dollar 1914, 1920 or 1921 are the first time when you have seen them in your life. Nowadays we have to stay alert because there are too many fakes. Many private YSK varieties which I introduced are less likely that you will find them in some numismatic literature.

However you have to know that most of all those private varieties are crudely made, contains less per cent of silver, weight much less than general issued YSK silver dollars.

As an example I would like to give Xinjiang variety of YSK 1914 dollar. Now it is well known among collectors, because we have literature where we can find this coin, because it recognizable by international coin collectors, not only chinese coin collectors and because PCGS/NGC graded such of pieces:
http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=2289.0

Which one of you wouldn't say that that Xinjiang variety of YSK 1914 have a chance of being fake than being new variety?? Without all of those above. Which one of you have seen ever Xinjiang variety graded by PCGS/NGC with mark higher than XF or AU. These are crudely made coins, it is hard to find them in better condition and also those are private issued pieces appearance is different than those general issued YSK 1914.

Those private varieties which I discribed are not recognizable by international coin collectors yet, because all of those reasons which I mentioned with Xinjiang vatiety, but one day they might be discovered in numismatic books.
KONDi
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Offline poconopenn

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Re: Fatman dollar 1914-common but rare...
« Reply #38 on: February 21, 2013, 04:26:00 PM »
The first step to identify the genuine 1914 Fat Man is looking for the hidden mark. There is a thicker dentil at nine clock of reverse as shown in the attached three pictures. The pictures were copied from Marbury518 posted in Reply 27 and 29.

After close examination of KNODi’s post at the beginning of this thread, the coins in pictures 1, 2, 5, 8, 11, 13, 20, 21, 25, 27 have this hidden mark while the coins in Picture 3, 4, 7, 9, 12, 17, 18a, 19 and 24 do not have and may not be genuine. The coins did not mention above are hard to tell, since the dentil is not visible.

All 7 eBay current listings of NGC and PCGS and ANAC graded 1914 fat man coin have the hidden mark as mentioned above.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/CHINA-1914-DOLLAR-YUAN-SHIH-KAI-RARE-COIN-SILVER-FAT-MAN-NGC-AU58-L-KS-UNC-L-K-/190796382021?pt=US_World_Coins&hash=item2c6c59bf45

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1914-CHINA-REPUBLIC-FAT-MAN-YUAN-SHIH-KAI-SILVER-DOLLAR-Y-329-L-M-63-PCGS-VF30-/281053763739?pt=US_World_Coins&hash=item41701c189b

http://www.ebay.com/itm/CHINA-REPUBLIC-1914-Yr3-1-Dollar-Silver-Crown-NGC-AU-53-E8-/230896875983?pt=US_World_Coins&hash=item35c286b9cf

http://www.ebay.com/itm/CHINA-1914-1-REPUBLIC-OF-CHINA-Y-329-PCGS-MS-61-FAT-MAN-Yuan-Shih-Kai-/290853721415?pt=US_World_Coins&hash=item43b83b9547

http://www.ebay.com/itm/CHINA-1914-1-REPUBLIC-OF-CHINA-Y-329-PCGS-AU-DETAIL-FAT-MAN-/290859708131?pt=US_World_Coins&hash=item43b896eee3

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1914-CHINA-SILVER-DOLLAR-YUAN-SHIH-KAI-FAT-MAN-ANACS-AU-53-/121068829927?pt=US_World_Coins&hash=item1c3043bce7

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1914-CHINA-REPUBLIC-FAT-MAN-YUAN-SHIH-KAI-SILVER-DOLLAR-Y-329-L-M-63-PCGS-XF40-/290847853956?pt=US_World_Coins&hash=item43b7e20d84

Offline mook

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Re: Fatman dollar 1914-common but rare...
« Reply #39 on: February 22, 2013, 03:20:19 PM »
Thanks Poconopenn,Kondi, very interesting N31

Offline KONDi

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Re: Fatman dollar 1914-common but rare...
« Reply #40 on: March 08, 2013, 11:04:01 AM »
Dear poconopenn,

According to that what you said:

"The first step to identify the genuine 1914 Fat Man is looking for the hidden mark. There is a thicker dentil at nine clock of reverse as shown in the attached three pictures. The pictures were copied from Marbury518 posted in Reply 27 and 29."

you got wrong by judging that my coin may be questionable. That the surface of my coin is not right for any genuine coin.
http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=4399.0
Because my fatman 1921 has this hidden mark.

Answering your other argument where you showed us photos copied from Marbury518 posted in Reply 27 and 29.
Those photos are not clear enough and have small resolution.

About those coins: 3, 4, 7, 9, 12, 17, 18a, 19 and 24 which you judged they do not have any hidden mark and may not be genuine.
First of all nr 3 and nr 4 are Gansu varieties, and on this more common (nr 3) you won't find this hidden mark as also on this more rare (nr 4):
http://www.ebay.com/itm/KANSU-PCGS-AU-53-1914-China-Kansu-Silver-Dollar-1-About-Uncirculated-/370766026646?_trksid=p2047675.l2557&_trkparms=aid%3D222002%26algo%3DSIC.FIT%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D14293%26meid%3D5915101738041857759%26pid%3D100011%26prg%3D1095%26rk%3D2%26sd%3D181085764233%26&nma=true&si=wW2aKEdTEsNtSNlHOGyYVtCrexA%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc

All those links from ebay which you provided us shows graded YSK dollar 1914 BUT general issued by Tianjin Central Mint AND those all have this hidden mark.

On nr 7, 9 and 12 that part is not clear I would have to check it first do I have still those coins.

Nr 17, 19 and 24 are all private issued, they don't have this hidden mark.

Nr 18a --- it is Sinkiang variety (Xinjiang variety) of YSK 1914:
http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=2289.0
These as also nr 3 and 4 from Gansu don't have hidden mark.

I am not sure about first link which you showed us:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/CHINA-1914-DOLLAR-YUAN-SHIH-KAI-RARE-COIN-SILVER-FAT-MAN-NGC-AU58-L-KS-UNC-L-K-/190796382021?pt=US_World_Coins&hash=item2c6c59bf45
I can't review all photos (reverse of this coin).

Anyway the hidden mark is not the only point to judge that coin is genuine or not.

KONDi
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Offline poconopenn

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Re: Fatman dollar 1914-common but rare...
« Reply #41 on: March 09, 2013, 12:10:35 PM »
Dear poconopenn,

First of all nr 3 and nr 4 are Gansu varieties, and on this more common (nr 3) you won't find this hidden mark as also on this more rare (nr 4):
http://www.ebay.com/itm/KANSU-PCGS-AU-53-1914-China-Kansu-Silver-Dollar-1-About-Uncirculated-/370766026646?_trksid=p2047675.l2557&_trkparms=aid%3D222002%26algo%3DSIC.FIT%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D14293%26meid%3D5915101738041857759%26pid%3D100011%26prg%3D1095%26rk%3D2%26sd%3D181085764233%26&nma=true&si=wW2aKEdTEsNtSNlHOGyYVtCrexA%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc


Your coins in picture 3 & 4 in the first post of this thread have significantly differences in Chinese characters from PCGS graded coin as show in  the attached enlarged section pictures. The first Chinese character in you coin in picture 3 is typical for common 1914 YSK, not known to be as Kansu coin. The coin in you picture 4 is definitely a low quality fake.

Offline poconopenn

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Re: Fatman dollar 1914-common but rare...
« Reply #42 on: March 09, 2013, 12:47:08 PM »
Dear poconopenn,

Nr 18a --- it is Sinkiang variety (Xinjiang variety) of YSK 1914:
http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=2289.0

Attached is enlarged section pictures of PCGS XF Xinjiang YSK vs. you coin in picture 18a. See the differences in Chinese characters. IMO, this is also a fake.

Offline G.Lewis

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Re: Fatman dollar 1914-common but rare...
« Reply #43 on: April 04, 2013, 05:16:05 AM »
I have come across a Fatman dollar and I have done quite a bit of searching and cannot find one like the one I have found. It has a rectangle to the right with some chinese characters in, I'm afraid I know absolutely no Chinese so I can't translate. Any ideas what it might be? I've attached a couple of photos beneath...

Offline KONDi

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Re: Fatman dollar 1914-common but rare...
« Reply #44 on: April 04, 2013, 05:40:49 AM »
Dear G.Lewis,

The first time I read about it here:
http://home.netvigator.com/~ykleungn/yuansk2.htm

It is Yuan Shih Kai silver dollar from 1914 with counterstamp made probably in 1934 by Chinese Soviets.
In SCWC 1901-2000 it is K#650k. The counterstamp in Chinese means "SOVIET".
This is extremely rare coin. I have never seen genuine piece. This coin which you showed us on those 2 pictures in not genuine piece.
KONDi
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