Author Topic: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions  (Read 88197 times)

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Offline naomi01225

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #210 on: November 13, 2014, 12:43:53 PM »
Hi
Everyone this medal has been sold today for 15000$ ,from germany

Offline Kirin

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #211 on: November 14, 2014, 04:12:13 PM »
According to records the 1984 Great Wall was minted in two types:
Type 1 (Plum Tree foreground) was minted (according to records) as both a Mirror Gem Proof & a BU Gem (business strike) Matte finish.
Fwang,  Poconopen,  Sandac, et al - What is your understanding on this confusion?  How could PCGS have graded a 1984 - Type 1 - Matte finish - 3 tael silver in a PF70DCAM???  Doesn't NGC have these Matte of type 1 - as mentioned in this thread by  (only matte 3 tael minted in 1984)  As recently seen on eBay from this seller Ivine (naomi ----)??   1984 - Great Wall - 3 tael - Type 2 is a Proof - EX. NGC:  3684312-001 (this one I had & sold).  I believe everyone has missed the point, the supposed - PCGS - PF70DCAM as pictured below is a mis-labeled slab, anyone else with comments?   

Offline Kirin

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #212 on: November 14, 2014, 04:15:35 PM »
Hi again;

 Here attached is the PCGS Verify photo(s) of this PCGS PF70DCAM .
Thanks for any & all input. 
Regards;
Kirin

Offline naomi01225

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #213 on: November 14, 2014, 04:19:24 PM »
nobody knows this medal got how many types,
pcgs called this pr,but ngc called this ms,i think its different company standard,

Offline fwang2450

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #214 on: November 14, 2014, 04:57:28 PM »
I mentioned this before, but it won't hurt to repeat here. If a coin or medal does not have a mirror finish, it does not mean that it is not proof. Matte proof is a type of proof. It is the result of proof coin making processes, such as specially prepared dies and blanks, higher tonnage of the press, slower striking speed, multiple strikes and careful handling of the finished products. Only the surface of the die is treated differently. It was totally wrong for NGC and PCGS to classify the commemorative coins and medals with matte finish as BU, which is business strike. They both used this wrong label at the beginning. Later on NGC used other labels such as SP (specimen strike), which is wrong again as dies and blanks for specimen strikes do not require special treatment. Now I think they have finally turned around, correctly labeling these as matte proof coins. So I don't think PCGS was mistaken in labeling this Great Wall medal as PR matte. The following picture shows that NGC has followed the same path.

Offline fwang2450

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #215 on: November 14, 2014, 05:03:30 PM »
There is no "DCAM" in the PCGS label. A matte proof cannot have mirror/cameo contrast.

Offline Kirin

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #216 on: November 14, 2014, 06:34:45 PM »
Hello Fwang2450;
 The DCAM addition in my thread was a "force of habit" & is not the case with this matte finished "proofs", I mistakenly typed that.   
Regarding the NGC "PF69 Matte" example of the "Empress of China", the China Mint clearly states on their original COAs (I have 40 of these in OMP in stock) the condition as BU not PF.   I don't know why NGC would deviate from the China Mint's own clearly stated COAs?  Maybe someone out there does?
According to pricepedia, the 1984 - Great Wall - type 1 "Plum Tree" versions were minted in both Gem Proof mirror & BU, matte finishes.
Kirin

Offline davidt3251

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #217 on: November 14, 2014, 11:00:39 PM »
naomi01225,

I just noticed that you have replaced your 1984 Great Wall silver medal PCGSPR70 listing with 1997 Haungdi silver medal.
 
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1984-china-great-wall-3-3tael-matte-PCGS-PR70-silver-medal-coin-rare-rare-/171507873738?pt=AU_Coins2&hash=item27eeaa77ca

Please post pictures of both sides of 1984 Great wall PCGS PR70 in this thread for future reference.  This will be a major contribution to the members who collect this medal in this forum.
 
The procedure of uploading picture can be found in the following thread.

http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=7896.msg46156#msg46156


I definitely look forward to seeing those Obverse and Reverse pictures of the PR70 Great Wall. Such a rarity!

Offline fwang2450

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #218 on: November 14, 2014, 11:09:05 PM »
Hi Kirin,

For Type II, the consensus is that the medal was not made in 1984, but in 1987. NGC makes a lot of mistakes on dates. A couple of days ago I saw the 1990 silver goldfish (with two fish on the reverse) labeled by NGC as (1984). RAREMEDAL brought this issue up time and again.

Frank

Offline poconopenn

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #219 on: November 14, 2014, 11:40:24 PM »
According to “Modern Chinese Commemorative Gold and Silver Coins and Medals Pictorial” (published by China Gold Coin Inc., June 1988), this great wall medal was minted at 1984 and identified as proof condition with mintage of 68.  Attached is the picture of this medal posted in the book. The picture show the surface is in a matte form. Please note that all NGC and PCGS graded Great Wall matte or mirror medal is not exactly identical to the design in the picture in the book (see marked area). Furthermore, the matte version also different from the mirror version in the same marked area. Mystery is continued.

It is also my understanding that matte version has coin # engraved at the edge of the medal. If not, the medal is questionable. There are many very high quality fake matte version in the market place. I will not be surprised that more fake/restrike matte medals in the market place than the genuine 1984 matte medal.

Offline Kirin

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #220 on: November 15, 2014, 08:16:05 AM »
davidt3251  Here are the PCGS photos of that PCGS PF70 we are all referring to.  It was also posted back in the last few threads of this conversation.

Poconopen - Really I honestly have to wonder IF there are any Matte finish examples that can actually be sifted out of the long line of re-strikes & out right unauthorized examples.  Seems PCGS & NGC in their "zeal" to look professional & appeal to the extensive Chinese market (for sales) may have over reached in their efforts to look like they would have a piece of the definitive word.  The mattes, to me, are all questionable, so many I have examined have just too many altering variations to know which are genuine & which are suspect.  With PCGS/NGC "slabbing away" with changing monikers from MS to PF, where would one find a semblance of genuine-ness?  If there are so many questions as to what, which, what type(s)/year & whether PF or BU, the whole exercise could prove quite disaffecting, nullifying any trust in authenticity of these Matte versions.  The Mirrored proofs are well established.  Until then regarding the Matte finished 3 taels , I would find the submissions to all be "questionable authenticity".  I wonder if there are any measurable, consistent grouping variations in weights, which would classify these matte examples?  Anyway what a challenge for those who pride themselves in being right (aka NGC/PCGS).       

Offline Kirin

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #221 on: November 15, 2014, 10:42:04 AM »
I would humbly suggest that this PCGS - Proof 70  is not from the original Matte mintage struck in 1984.
JMHO
Kirin

Offline davidt3251

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #222 on: November 15, 2014, 11:40:59 AM »
davidt3251  Here are the PCGS photos of that PCGS PF70 we are all referring to.  It was also posted back in the last few threads of this conversation.

Poconopen - Really I honestly have to wonder IF there are any Matte finish examples that can actually be sifted out of the long line of re-strikes & out right unauthorized examples.  Seems PCGS & NGC in their "zeal" to look professional & appeal to the extensive Chinese market (for sales) may have over reached in their efforts to look like they would have a piece of the definitive word.  The mattes, to me, are all questionable, so many I have examined have just too many altering variations to know which are genuine & which are suspect.  With PCGS/NGC "slabbing away" with changing monikers from MS to PF, where would one find a semblance of genuine-ness?  If there are so many questions as to what, which, what type(s)/year & whether PF or BU, the whole exercise could prove quite disaffecting, nullifying any trust in authenticity of these Matte versions.  The Mirrored proofs are well established.  Until then regarding the Matte finished 3 taels , I would find the submissions to all be "questionable authenticity".  I wonder if there are any measurable, consistent grouping variations in weights, which would classify these matte examples?  Anyway what a challenge for those who pride themselves in being right (aka NGC/PCGS).       

Did naomi01225 take those photos? I dont see any with the slab.

A long time ago I did business with naomi01225.

Offline Kirin

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #223 on: November 15, 2014, 11:58:37 AM »
Hi & no these are downloads from PCGS website coin verification.  They are the obverse & reverse of this
PR70  sold to Germany for $15,000.00 - from naomi01225
Kirin

Offline poconopenn

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Re: Great Wall 1984 3.3 oz. Silver Medal - Two Versions
« Reply #224 on: November 15, 2014, 12:48:30 PM »
Unfortunately, the pictures at NGC and PCGS websites are not good enough to see the 3 dimensional details. Hopefully, naomi01225 will come back to post detail pictures of matte version to contribute our discussions since he claimed to own both PCGS PR69 and 70 of this matte version in his posting dated Nov 11.