Author Topic: F/S 2001 SMALL D NGC MS69 RARE............  (Read 13322 times)

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Offline NBM

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Re: F/S 2001 SMALL D NGC MS69 RARE............
« Reply #15 on: December 11, 2012, 12:39:49 PM »
Thank you Joe for responding, as always there are 2 sides to a disagreement and those who weren't there should be careful to not judge.
I gave you an applaud for your response.

Offline wg

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Re: F/S 2001 SMALL D NGC MS69 RARE............
« Reply #16 on: December 11, 2012, 01:07:29 PM »
>>> and says to himself JACKPOT<<<

 ;)


kind regards

p.s.: artak .... to place these words joeman was a shot in the knee, agree?

"F*** off you stupid chinese , what the f*** you want ? that is your f***ing name Artak ? i have a 50 guys now in Brooklyn NY , you want me to call them ???
i said why you so rude to me ? "f*** off i dont care , i ll exposure in every board im ..."
« Last Edit: December 11, 2012, 01:12:28 PM by wg »

Offline shibaji

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Re: F/S 2001 SMALL D NGC MS69 RARE............
« Reply #17 on: December 11, 2012, 02:35:32 PM »
I do not understand what is the big deal here, other than the badmouthing part. People make mistakes, and even if the cert # was not mistake, I can guarantee you any seller you find under this condition will do something similar (may be more explicit - saying that the value of the coin changed, due to attribute change). A deal is a deal when all attributes are same. Clearly, I see sour grapes effect in buyer's part here - otherwise someone will not cling to a cert #. How many times all of you have purchased something (clothes/crafts/coins/etc) and returned for various reasons ? I even see people all around buying a dress for party and then returning - where are the ethics ? If all sellers decided not to accept such returns I wonder where USA would be today! Interestingly, you will not find such practices in Asia

Anyway, I side 100% with Joe in this regard - but if he indeed said bad things (which I doubt) - then he should certainly apologize - other than that - the buyer's case does not even stand in this case.

My 2 cents.

Offline SANDAC

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Re: F/S 2001 SMALL D NGC MS69 RARE............
« Reply #18 on: December 11, 2012, 04:08:34 PM »
I'm here to learn, and I've learned there is a school of thought that says a deal is not a deal until payment is received AND the item is shipped.  Here is a possible test scenerio for that kind of deal:  We know joeman has sold 3 small D at $750 each a day or two ago.  He may or may not have received the payment, and probably have not shipped the items yet.  We also know silverstar1 has a small D on eBay that is $455 right now.  So if silverstar1's bid price shoot up to $1000 and joeman hasn't shipped his coins, yet.  Is it reasonable for joeman to back out of the deal and ask for $1000?

Offline Hippanda

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Re: F/S 2001 SMALL D NGC MS69 RARE............
« Reply #19 on: December 11, 2012, 04:21:33 PM »
 We know joeman has sold 3 small D at $750 each a day or two ago.  

Correction: We know no such thing. Unless you are seeing such a sale and proceeds and have talked with buyers yourself. We have a sellers word of sales and the price, on a non- public /non- auction.
Sorry to get specific, seller just may have sold as described. But maybe not, that's why I hate that type of selling "format"- its ripe for potential abuse.

In this business I don't trust my even brother's word.
It's a business of shills, false bids, false sales to pump prices, etc.

Ignore at your own risk.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2012, 04:24:33 PM by Hipanda »
"He who speaks without modesty will find it difficult to make his words good."

Confucius

Offline Mirkkanen

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Re: F/S 2001 SMALL D NGC MS69 RARE............
« Reply #20 on: December 11, 2012, 04:23:16 PM »
In your hypothetical situation . . . no, that decision would be unethical/unreasonable/dishonorable if he has already agreed to sell for $750 (and even more so if he had already received payment).

I'm here to learn, and I've learned there is a school of thought that says a deal is not a deal until payment is received AND the item is shipped.  Here is a possible test scenerio for that kind of deal:  We know joeman has sold 3 small D at $750 each a day or two ago.  He may or may not have received the payment, and probably have not shipped the items yet.  We also know silverstar1 has a small D on eBay that is $455 right now.  So if silverstar1's bid price shoot up to $1000 and joeman hasn't shipped his coins, yet.  Is it reasonable for joeman to back out of the deal and ask for $1000?

joeman

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Re: F/S 2001 SMALL D NGC MS69 RARE............
« Reply #21 on: December 11, 2012, 04:23:23 PM »
I'm here to learn, and I've learned there is a school of thought that says a deal is not a deal until payment is received AND the item is shipped.  Here is a possible test scenerio for that kind of deal:  We know joeman has sold 3 small D at $750 each a day or two ago.  He may or may not have received the payment, and probably have not shipped the items yet.  We also know silverstar1 has a small D on eBay that is $455 right now.  So if silverstar1's bid price shoot up to $1000 and joeman hasn't shipped his coins, yet.  Is it reasonable for joeman to back out of the deal and ask for $1000?

It is totally unreasonable Sandac , FYI all 2001 small d sold on this forum by me @ 750 each ,have been shipped free of charge overnight express ,signature required , insured ,and tracking was supplied to buyers ......,so i am hoping you are not implying that I would do something like that #1 and #2 your post has no relevance IMHO, Shanghai coins CLEARLY PURCHASED a 2001d regular ms69 ngc for 130usd WEEKS BEFORE THE EXISTANCE OF THE SMALL DATE WAS KNOWN, i supplied him with the wrong cert # and he has tried unsuccessfully to get a totally different coin from me than he agreed to purchase or that he paid for !again he paid 130 usd specifically for a 2001d ms69 ngc, long before the existence of the small d was known , was I not clear ??   I have never and I repeat never reneged on a deal.......... I come from the school of thought you make a deal and stick to it. In the case of shanghai coins he is trying to get something he clearly did not pay for thats all.............

joeman

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Re: F/S 2001 SMALL D NGC MS69 RARE............
« Reply #22 on: December 11, 2012, 04:25:44 PM »
It is totally unreasonable Sandac , FYI all 2001 small d sold on this forum by me @ 750 each ,have been shipped free of charge overnight express ,signature required , insured ,and tracking was supplied to buyers ......,so i am hoping you are not implying that I would do something like that #1 and #2 your post has no relevance IMHO, Shanghai coins CLEARLY PURCHASED a 2001d regular ms69 ngc for 130usd WEEKS BEFORE THE EXISTANCE OF THE SMALL DATE WAS KNOWN, i supplied him with the wrong cert # and he has tried unsuccessfully to get a totally different coin from me than he agreed to purchase or that he paid for !again he paid 130 usd specifically for a 2001d ms69 ngc, long before the existence of the small d was known , was I not clear ??   I have never and I repeat never reneged on a deal.......... I come from the school of thought you make a deal and stick to it. In the case of shanghai coins he is trying to get something he clearly did not pay for thats all.............

Offline Obsidian

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Re: F/S 2001 SMALL D NGC MS69 RARE............
« Reply #23 on: December 11, 2012, 04:27:47 PM »
I'm here to learn, and I've learned there is a school of thought that says a deal is not a deal until payment is received AND the item is shipped.  Here is a possible test scenerio for that kind of deal:  We know joeman has sold 3 small D at $750 each a day or two ago.  He may or may not have received the payment, and probably have not shipped the items yet.  We also know silverstar1 has a small D on eBay that is $455 right now.  So if silverstar1's bid price shoot up to $1000 and joeman hasn't shipped his coins, yet.  Is it reasonable for joeman to back out of the deal and ask for $1000?

I don't believe it would be a good or fair practice to back out of a deal in the situation you outlined above.  I believe that once a price is negotiated and especially if money has been sent the deal is a deal.  I also believe that if I make a deal and give a certification number or recieve a certification number.  I should expect to send / recieve that number.

I am not here to argue whether Joe made a mistake or not but there is a pretty clear timeline that shows he very easily could have struck a deal with Shanghai Coins, given him a serial number, realized that coin was an apparent rare variety and backed out of the deal.   In the end there is no way as a buyer to prove this.

You will find on silverstackers this post from Joe made on December 6th:
"Geeeeeeeeeeeeeeeez i stole your pic and posted it on another site ,the boys on ccf are paranoid:):)
here is a couple graded before the new label
2780533-023
2780533-022   I had a whole sheet small d,s graded them and sold them ,some of my customers are holding those Small d,s ...............................................enjoy"

He also made a post on this forum about selling several of these coins for < $150.  I would guess the coin that he was planning on selling to Shanghai Coins was from this sheet as he posted the certification number on Silver stackers and emailed the number to Shanghai Coins.  Then a day later he comes back and says the coins were "oversold".

Anyway, i'm sure this kind of stuff happens whether by mistake or intentionally.  I am quite sure Joe is a dealer that isn't going to intentionally rip someone off.  This situation was definitely a "grey" area.

As to what was said in the phone call, who knows.  It seems a little out there for Artak to have made all that up.  However, he may be misquoting Joe to some degree as it was a phone conversation.  Like most situations like this, the truth likely lies somewhere in the middle.  Moving on.

Offline dynamike51

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Re: F/S 2001 SMALL D NGC MS69 RARE............
« Reply #24 on: December 11, 2012, 04:28:50 PM »
SANDAC:

I didn't know you are good at "opening up a can of worms".

Offline Hippanda

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Re: F/S 2001 SMALL D NGC MS69 RARE............
« Reply #25 on: December 11, 2012, 04:29:47 PM »
Just curious-

Any members here who want to say
they have been a buyer of these 2001 Small Date this week?


For that matter, any members want to come
forward to say they were buyers of pagoda sets at prices of over $20,000?
"He who speaks without modesty will find it difficult to make his words good."

Confucius

Offline dynamike51

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Re: F/S 2001 SMALL D NGC MS69 RARE............
« Reply #26 on: December 11, 2012, 04:39:06 PM »
Just curious-

Any members here who want to say
they have been a buyer of these 2001 Small Date this week?


For that matter, any members want to come
forward to say they were buyers of pagoda sets at prices of over $20,000?

Holy Smoke .... another can of worms being opened !!!      :scared:

Offline dynamike51

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Re: F/S 2001 SMALL D NGC MS69 RARE............
« Reply #27 on: December 11, 2012, 04:44:35 PM »
I just want to offer "a word of caution" to those who are willing to pay $1,000 ...or $750 ... or whatever you think that "small-D" is worth .... to get a hold of one.

Remember what poconopenn said earlier, though he believes they are a genuine variety, these small-D may not be as rare as you would think. He even posted pictures of "sheets" for sale.

"Train is leaving the station, so I have to jump on this one?" ...... maybe not. There's another one coming soon. 

joeman

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Re: F/S 2001 SMALL D NGC MS69 RARE............
« Reply #28 on: December 11, 2012, 04:46:01 PM »
I don't believe it would be a good or fair practice to back out of a deal in the situation you outlined above.  I believe that once a price is negotiated and especially if money has been sent the deal is a deal.  I also believe that if I make a deal and give a certification number or recieve a certification number.  I should expect to send / recieve that number.

I am not here to argue whether Joe made a mistake or not but there is a pretty clear timeline that shows he very easily could have struck a deal with Shanghai Coins, given him a serial number, realized that coin was an apparent rare variety and backed out of the deal.   In the end there is no way as a buyer to prove this.

You will find on silverstackers this post from Joe made on December 6th:
"Geeeeeeeeeeeeeeeez i stole your pic and posted it on another site ,the boys on ccf are paranoid:):)
here is a couple graded before the new label
2780533-023
2780533-022   I had a whole sheet small d,s graded them and sold them ,some of my customers are holding those Small d,s ...............................................enjoy"

He also made a post on this forum about selling several of these coins for < $150.  I would guess the coin that he was planning on selling to Shanghai Coins was from this sheet as he posted the certification number on Silver stackers and emailed the number to Shanghai Coins.  Then a day later he comes back and says the coins were "oversold".

Anyway, i'm sure this kind of stuff happens whether by mistake or intentionally.  I am quite sure Joe is a dealer that isn't going to intentionally rip someone off.  This situation was definitely a "grey" area.

As to what was said in the phone call, who knows.  It seems a little out there for Artak to have made all that up.  However, he may be misquoting Joe to some degree as it was a phone conversation.  Like most situations like this, the truth likely lies somewhere in the middle.  Moving on.
THERE IS AN OLD SAYING  'YOU JUST CANT FIX STUPID!!!!!!!!!!!!I HOPE THIS PUTS THIS TO REST EXCHANGE AND DEAL WELL BEFORE 2001 SMALL D EXISTANCE
2012-11-27 5:19 pm
88shanghaicoins
Member
From:: Shanghai , China
Registered: 2012-06-18
Posts: 44
jc888888888 wrote:
88shanghaicoins wrote:
jc888888888 wrote:
HAVE 2001 D ,2011 GOLD EXCHANGE,have a bunch of stuff coming ,but ngc is painfully slow 2004 icbc ,2010 capitol markets ,95ld ,96 ,97 1/2 oz panda ,2013 snakes fans and blossums ,2012 beijing expo ,2004 panda,2005 panda . lots of gold 1/10 panda,s, , 2007, 2009 ,1984 1985 ,1997 auspicious matters, all in ms69 gold I am not giving away :) if I have good cost I can deal a little ,but i am not selling graded gold around spot, they are on fire on e bay
i would like to take all 01-d , 2011 gold exchange, 2004 icbc, 2010 capital , 2012 snake , 12 beijing expo , 04 panda and gold 1/10 pandas . i can buy a big lot , many coins in 1 purchase . give me prices and what time you ll get them from NGC ?
I have 2001d 5 pcs  135usd  
          2011 gold exchange  6 pcs with box and coa 130usd   both ms69
          
          1/10 gold ms69
          2007  295usd   2pcs
          2009  260 usd   5 pcs
           1984  300 usd  2 pcs
           1985  300usd   1pc
           1997 auspisious matters 245  2pcs
all the rest are in grading and i cant establish prices till i see grades,prices are firm ,thanks Regards Joe
hi Joe , finally o sold my 85 panda .
i can offer
01-D 2x135 270
11x1 130
1/10
84x2 275
85x1 275
00x1 405
07x1 275
09x2 260
total 2150 + shipping
shipping to US , NY , same address
regards

Offline Obsidian

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Re: F/S 2001 SMALL D NGC MS69 RARE............
« Reply #29 on: December 11, 2012, 04:49:38 PM »
IMHO, Shanghai coins CLEARLY PURCHASED a 2001d regular ms69 ngc for 130usd WEEKS BEFORE THE EXISTANCE OF THE SMALL DATE WAS KNOWN, i supplied him with the wrong cert # and he has tried unsuccessfully to get a totally different coin from me than he agreed to purchase or that he paid for !again he paid 130 usd specifically for a 2001d ms69 ngc, long before the existence of the small d was known , was I not clear ??   I have never and I repeat never reneged on a deal.......... I come from the school of thought you make a deal and stick to it. In the case of shanghai coins he is trying to get something he clearly did not pay for thats all.............

Joeman, I honestly have no beef with you.  Please don't take any of what I say as an indication of that.  I am simply trying to see the situation as an outside, unrelated party to the transaction.

Where I would disagree with your statement above is that you say he "CLEARLY PURCHASED a 2001d regular ms69 ngc for 130usd WEEKS BEFORE THE EXISTANCE OF THE SMALL DATE WAS KNOWN".  That statement contradicts itself.  How can someone CLEARLY buy a Large D or Small D before it was known to exist?  He bought neither a Large D or a Small D but a 2001-D.  You then went on to send him a Serial number for a SPECIFIC coin.  This coin happened to be a SMALL D.  At that point you were selling him a SPECIFIC coin with serial number 2780533-023.  Which is a 2001-D "Small D".  

You say that giving him that serial number was a mistake but from your other posts it is pretty clear that you had 2 sheets of 2001-D's.  You posted on December 6, "yep i graded a whole sheet sandac is spot on 9 ms69 and 1 ms68        the other sheet is in the safe box, i go get it and post some pics in a few days............ i believe it is shenzhen".  Then you send Shanghai Coins a message about having another 10 being graded (the other sheet).  Let me guess...the other sheet is NOT Small-D?

I point all this out so you can see that a Buyer in Shanghai Coin's shoes would have reason to question what really happened.

You can argue all day long that Shanghai was not buying a "Small-D" but on the same hand you were not necessarily selling a "Large-D".  Since you admitted to selling several of these "Small-D" for low prices.


« Last Edit: December 11, 2012, 04:58:22 PM by Obsidian »