Author Topic: 1911 China coin to see is to believe  (Read 13421 times)

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Offline PandaCollector

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Re: 1911 China coin to see is to believe
« Reply #60 on: April 24, 2017, 04:50:53 PM »
Thanks Poconopenn for your intelligent and direct comments... especially the point about possible ties to counterfeiters. Unfortunately clear comments about the "tells" of counterfeit coins educate the good guys, but also enable the bad guys to make fakes that are increasingly more difficult to detect.

"For most collectors, the chance of acquiring quadruplets and twin fake coins is very limited. I am just wondering if you are associated to counterfeit factory in China/Taiwan and trying to promote those fake coins at this forum."

+1 to both Poconopenn and Bearcat. This is the reason I stopped updating the counterfeits section on pandacollector.com. It is dismaying to see new batches of counterfeits that address any publicly known flaws in previous fakes.

Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
China Pricepedia
www.pandacollector.com

Offline poconopenn

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Re: 1911 China coin to see is to believe
« Reply #61 on: April 24, 2017, 05:37:44 PM »
Just want to show the above post by pandacollector is already shown up at Baidu search inside China.

Offline linlaujiou

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Re: 1911 China coin to see is to believe
« Reply #62 on: May 13, 2017, 04:39:21 AM »
1.   我從事醫療服務業.只是業餘研究機制幣的愛好者.與任何造假份子無關.
2.   我是獨行俠.手上錢幣全都是自己花錢買來研究的.跟您一樣.沒有造假的本事.
3.   最近忙其他事情.沒進論壇.畢竟錢幣不是生活的全部
4.   先前已經貼圖讓你見識同模傷假幣的相似程度.
5.   圖中您標示紅圈內直線是屬陽刻凸起線條.與幣面刮傷呈現蝕刻不同.在造幣鋼模上刻劃才能呈現如此情況.再者.該等直線條實際粗細的程度.相信您沒工具也沒本事刻劃出來.
6.   兩枚錢幣刀痕鑿痕完全不同.並非同模.錢幣看真看假.總要說出假的理由及製造工藝.這兩枚錢幣的刀痕鑿痕是由何種工藝製造?您不妨說說.
7.   儲存圖片.放大即可觀察文字筆劃上刀痕鑿痕的差異.
8.   林杯說..底板上的陽刻線條也是寶奉版共同暗記.並非同模傷.
9.   把林杯當成造假的同路人.那是從門底縫裏看人.

Offline linlaujiou

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Re: 1911 China coin to see is to believe
« Reply #63 on: May 13, 2017, 06:49:02 AM »
1.   同樣的底板陽刻暗記在寶奉版前輩奉天癸卯一兩也可見到.
2.   所謂暗記就是人為刻意的瑕疵.全幣綜觀無異樣.微觀有玄機.寶奉版以直線型態陽刻.就是告訴你這是人為刻意為之.放大看.兩寶奉直線陽刻線條刻法也不同
3.   奉天癸卯一兩的兩字陽刻暗記.綜觀會以為只是刮傷露銀.但以高解析呈相.就呈現該陽刻是有形立體樣態.全然有別於一般的鑄造堆銀.
4.   能參透造幣設計者的防偽巧思及暗記佈局是神交古人的最大成就感.設計暗記本身的虛虛實實.就是防偽的精神所在.
5.   造假者分不清固有暗記還是後天損傷.造假時會刻意全數抹滅呈現完美樣態.投你所好.
6.   你3人要記得掛號繳交學費.

Offline poconopenn

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Re: 1911 China coin to see is to believe
« Reply #64 on: May 13, 2017, 06:35:58 PM »
Clearly, you will not quit to promote your fake coins. You had been identified as fake coin seller as early as 2013 inside China. The first coin posted in this thread was identified as fake by two other members of this forum besides myself.
 
Here is example of link related to the comments about you inside China.

http://club.icoin.cn/bbs/read.aspx?id=386644&p=0

Attached are screenshots of the comment mentioned in the above link, as well as google and baidu translations of the said comment. Unfortunately, the translations from both companies are very poor, since the comment contained many Chinese slangs. For example “初入泉坛的藏友” (new collectors of the forum) is being translated as “altar of the altar Tibetan friends” and “spring altar Tibet” by google and baidu respectively.

In summary, the poster suggested that you always claimed graded coins and high quality coins sold by the reputable auction houses to be fake and your low quality and wore coins, most likely bought from street venders, as genuine. By postings and discussing with other collectors in the forum about your research, your tried to seduce new collectors of the forum to buy those fake coins.
 
By the way, the two coins, which you claimed to have a valuation of RMB 100,000/each, posted in Reply #31 are also fake twin. By posting twin, IMO, you were trying subtly to attract members of this forum to buy your extra.   

Offline Bearcat

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Re: 1911 China coin to see is to believe
« Reply #65 on: May 14, 2017, 09:42:16 PM »
Great work poconopenn! Nice detective work on two continents to unmask the culprit and foil his scheme. Unfortunately, for every bad guy we catch, seems like 100 spring up. We must all be vigilant...

Offline Anthony H

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Re: 1911 China coin to see is to believe
« Reply #66 on: May 14, 2017, 10:51:06 PM »
WOW! I AM AMAZED BY YOUR DETECTIVE WORK! There are so many counterfeiters and forgers today faking all these silver dollars. Kiangnan, Hupeh, etc. Thank you! We must be vigilant indeed!  N31 N31 N31 N31 :thumbup:

Offline linlaujiou

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Re: 1911 China coin to see is to believe
« Reply #67 on: May 15, 2017, 05:18:30 AM »
.關於你鏈結的那枚NGC中華民國十六年造孫中山陵墓幣.我一直認為是枚假幣.在錢幣論壇裏有不同的看法是常有的事.錢幣認真.靠見識.錢幣認假.靠勇氣.真假之間糾葛的是利益與顏面.因此林杯說.錢幣易懂.人心難測..更何況.那些批評我的人.對錢幣的看法就正確了嗎?
2.回歸主題.就幣論幣.那兩枚寶奉版.你不敢承認誤判成同模傷.說成是假幣.何苦要施展墨魚戰術.模糊焦點.勇敢面對吧.承認錯誤不可恥.可恥的是死不認錯.高鼻子洋人好像不是這個樣.
3.任何論壇都有一夥造假護假售假的幫眾.在相互掩護.打擊不同看法的人.這種情況.司空見慣.是你少見多怪.還是做賊喊捉賊.林杯淡然處之.
4.你鏈結那枚十六年造孫中山陵墓幣我看是假幣始終如一.你敢提出來.想必你是看真的了.附圖標記紅線處.你不妨說說你的看法.
5.你實在太小瞧我了.如果我要淪落到靠賣錢幣謀生.我晚景堪憐了.請你不要以小人之心度君子之腹.切記.
6.接受沒有實力的褒獎.往往註定是悲劇的開始.

Offline linlaujiou

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Re: 1911 China coin to see is to believe
« Reply #68 on: May 15, 2017, 06:50:48 AM »
1.   林杯來此論壇目的是與機制幣同好分享對機制幣真假判斷的看法.爾後對非研討錢幣的人身攻擊.一概不予回應.
2.   個人收藏錢幣是為自身陪葬品預做準備.只買不賣.但是.歡迎你來陪葬.
3.   林杯陸續接收中國舊社會錢幣藏家.幣商後代悉數藏品已達7家.今後將繼續買進.以豐富陪葬品.
4.   欽此..公告週知 N28

Offline pandamonium

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Re: 1911 China coin to see is to believe
« Reply #69 on: May 15, 2017, 08:45:43 AM »
Do the Empire small silver 50 C, 20 C, 10 C & 5 C have tons of fakes too?........ I was told there are small silver fakes but they have not been exposed like the silver dollars have........

Offline poconopenn

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Re: 1911 China coin to see is to believe
« Reply #70 on: May 15, 2017, 05:31:31 PM »
Attached book has clear pictures and description of wear patterns for all US circulated coins. By study this book and examine the wear patterns of graded Imperial and Republic coins found at websites, the collectors can learn the technique to spot the counterfeit coins without even checking the design of the coins. The fake coins usually have many surface defects during the coping process and need to polish the surface of dies or coins to remove those defects, therefore, the wear pattern will be changed accordingly.

The pictures posted by linlaujiao are good examples of the incorrect wear patterns.

Offline fwang2450

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Re: 1911 China coin to see is to believe
« Reply #71 on: May 15, 2017, 07:45:40 PM »
林先生,歡迎您來論壇。本論壇懂機制幣的人不多,有您加入,無論是普及還是深入討論,都是好事。不過您開的這個貼子弄到現在氣氛已經不正常。部分原因是您的風格。本壇一向彼此坦誠相待,知無不盡。poconopenn見到他認為的同模傷,提出疑問,很正常。您不必因此採用故弄玄虛的口吻。天外有天。不說別的,您那些放大鏡下拍的照片實在不敢恭維。拍不出高清大圖,如何討論刀痕這樣的細節?下面是手雕章古塔上的刀痕細節照片,供您參考。

最后還有一點疑問。您英文不太好,本壇又不擅長機制幣,您為何不去用中文專門討論機制幣的論壇深入探討,而要來本壇做普及工作?

Offline KeepOnTrying!

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Re: 1911 China coin to see is to believe
« Reply #72 on: May 15, 2017, 09:16:13 PM »
林先生,歡迎您來論壇。本論壇懂機制幣的人不多,有您加入,無論是普及還是深入討論,都是好事。不過您開的這個貼子弄到現在氣氛已經不正常。部分原因是您的風格。本壇一向彼此坦誠相待,知無不盡。poconopenn見到他認為的同模傷,提出疑問,很正常。您不必因此採用故弄玄虛的口吻。天外有天。不說別的,您那些放大鏡下拍的照片實在不敢恭維。拍不出高清大圖,如何討論刀痕這樣的細節?下面是手雕章古塔上的刀痕細節照片,供您參考。

最后還有一點疑問。您英文不太好,本壇又不擅長機制幣,您為何不去用中文專門討論機制幣的論壇深入探討,而要來本壇做普及工作?

Fwang do you mind translating this so that we can follow the discussion? Thanks.
KeepOnTrying and Never Give Up!
That lion is also after you!

Offline linlaujiou

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Re: 1911 China coin to see is to believe
« Reply #73 on: May 16, 2017, 08:56:32 AM »
林先生,歡迎您來論壇。本論壇懂機制幣的人不多,有您加入,無論是普及還是深入討論,都是好事。不過您開的這個貼子弄到現在氣氛已經不正常。部分原因是您的風格。本壇一向彼此坦誠相待,知無不盡。poconopenn見到他認為的同模傷,提出疑問,很正常。您不必因此採用故弄玄虛的口吻。天外有天。不說別的,您那些放大鏡下拍的照片實在不敢恭維。拍不出高清大圖,如何討論刀痕這樣的細節?下面是手雕章古塔上的刀痕細節照片,供您參考。

最后還有一點疑問。您英文不太好,本壇又不擅長機制幣,您為何不去用中文專門討論機制幣的論壇深入探討,而要來本壇做普及工作?

1.   非常感謝您的寶貴建議及忠言.若因之前個人辭意表達造成誤會.我願在此向POCONOPEEN表達誠摯的道歉.
2.   就是因為個人經歷許多錢幣論壇歷練.深知黑暗的一面.想要遏止假幣的氾濫.一枚一枚揭假.永遠趕不及假幣製造及入盒的速度.
3.   一家錢幣鑑定公司的老闆親口對我說.他到中國參觀假幣工廠時.造假工廠老闆拿出一籮筐假幣.要鑑定公司老闆自己挑選品相能入盒的入盒去賣.該鑑定公司老闆嘴裏雖說沒有拿.但是.實際上早已在做球員兼裁判的鑑定幣買賣生意.
4.   我個人一直在鑽研機制幣.深知玩藏機制幣的不管新手.老手普遍都存在對錢幣真假的不確定感.老生常談的掌握機制特徵也缺乏精確有效的方法.
5.   經過個人反覆的思考及驗證.將其簡化成.所謂的掌握機制特徵就是掌握幣面圖樣.文字的刀痕.鑿痕.因為造幣鋼模就是用刀鑿刻的.鋼模上的刀痕鑿痕會經由冷沖壓忠實的反擊在錢幣表面.因此觀察不同枚同幣種錢幣表面相同位置的鑿痕.馬上就能判斷是否同模幣.精細的刀痕鑿痕也是造假業者永遠無法踰越的鴻溝.
6.   不同時代的雕刻工具.刻工.刻法.都有差異.老錢幣是整個幣面滿工雕刻.雕刻手法細膩精緻.與您的貼圖比較刀鑿痕就有天差地別.
7.   雕刻工藝有別於繪畫工藝.上頭十六年造孫中山陵墓幣的人像刻劃眼睛像貓眼.洋娃娃眼.這是幼稚園小朋友都懂的繪畫技巧.1927年維也納造幣廠的雕刻工匠人物眼睛雕法就不是這麼刻的.所以看眼睛就知是枚假幣.
8.   請您仔細看我上頭貼圖寶字各筆劃上的微細條狀鑿痕.倘使您能領悟.也讓外國朋友們知道如何觀察.只要好好利用拍攝技巧直接拍出幣面刀痕鑿痕.錢幣真假的判斷是直接有效的.
9.   唯有讓人人都懂如何判斷錢幣真假.才是遏止假幣氾濫的最好方法.這就是我來此論壇的目的.

Offline poconopenn

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Re: 1911 China coin to see is to believe
« Reply #74 on: May 16, 2017, 01:49:44 PM »
Here are more examples to show the incorrect wear pattern of your reproduction coin. As shown in picture one, besides of identical scratch lines, the flattened shape and size of those dots in black box also identical for these two different coins and in F condition which does not match the VF/+ condition of the coin . In the second picture, the box shows two different wear patterns, dentals are flat which matches wear pattern of scales, but the relief at edge shows very limited wear. The high relief at edge was the result of minting process during the reproduction. Those fake coins, most likely, were minted many years ago, In recent years, the counterfeiters have better equipment and made many improvement and they do not make this type mistake anymore.

The information mentioned above is well-known to contemporary counterfeiters, but can be helpful to those new collectors to detect low quality fake made many years ago as shown in this thread.