Author Topic: 1911 China coin to see is to believe  (Read 9958 times)

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Offline fwang2450

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Re: 1911 China coin to see is to believe
« Reply #75 on: May 16, 2017, 04:49:16 PM »
Fwang do you mind translating this so that we can follow the discussion? Thanks.
Here is a quick translation:
Welcome to the forum, Mr. Lin. Not that many members on this forum have expertise on the old silver dollars, and so it is nice to have you here, whether for education or for deep-going discussions. However, the post you started is not going in the right direction now, partly because of your style. This forum encourages honesty and straight talk. Poconopenn saw what he deemed to be identical scratches from transferred dies and spoke up. This is normal. You don't need to resort to some kind of joking/playful tone because of his challenge. There is always someone better out there. Other points aside, the photos you took under magnification leave a lot of room for improvement. Without high-definition pictures, how can one discuss details such as knife marks? I am offering some pictures of the knife marks on the hand-engraved Ancient Pagoda medal, for your reference.

Lastly, I am a little puzzled. Your command of English is not that good, and old Chinese silver dollars are not the focus of this forum. Why spend time on educating this forum instead of going to Chinese speaking forums specialized in old silver coins for detailed discussions?

Offline fwang2450

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Re: 1911 China coin to see is to believe
« Reply #76 on: May 16, 2017, 05:06:36 PM »
Here are more examples to show the incorrect wear pattern of your reproduction coin. As shown in picture one, besides of identical scratch lines, the flattened shape and size of those dots in black box also identical for these two different coins and in F condition which does not match the VF/+ condition of the coin . In the second picture, the box shows two different wear patterns, dentals are flat which matches wear pattern of scales, but the relief at edge shows very limited wear. The high relief at edge was the result of minting process during the reproduction. Those fake coins, most likely, were minted many years ago, In recent years, the counterfeiters have better equipment and made many improvement and they do not make this type mistake anymore.

The information mentioned above is well-known to contemporary counterfeiters, but can be helpful to those new collectors to detect low quality fake made many years ago as shown in this thread.

Good catch and very educating. I am learning.

Offline linlaujiou

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Re: 1911 China coin to see is to believe
« Reply #77 on: May 16, 2017, 08:10:45 PM »
Here are more examples to show the incorrect wear pattern of your reproduction coin. As shown in picture one, besides of identical scratch lines, the flattened shape and size of those dots in black box also identical for these two different coins and in F condition which does not match the VF/+ condition of the coin . In the second picture, the box shows two different wear patterns, dentals are flat which matches wear pattern of scales, but the relief at edge shows very limited wear. The high relief at edge was the result of minting process during the reproduction. Those fake coins, most likely, were minted many years ago, In recent years, the counterfeiters have better equipment and made many improvement and they do not make this type mistake anymore.

The information mentioned above is well-known to contemporary counterfeiters, but can be helpful to those new collectors to detect low quality fake made many years ago as shown in this thread.


您好..所示陽刻凸起直線線條.並非磨損.

Offline linlaujiou

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Re: 1911 China coin to see is to believe
« Reply #78 on: May 16, 2017, 08:16:44 PM »
1.   fwang2450的貼圖驗證了一位中國現代造幣廠首席雕模技師的專訪.他提到現代機制幣幣模的設計製造已全部交由電腦與機器處理.雕模技師的作用.只剩在做最後的幣模修飾.因為最後的人工刻鑿痕就是最好的防偽.因此貼圖裏的鑿痕功用看來已無美感的需要.
2.   中國老錢幣的設計製造.摻雜造幣設計者的防偽巧思.藉由精湛的雕模技巧.成為落實在幣面圖樣.文字裏的暗記佈局..真正的中國古老機制幣.在文字筆劃.筆觸中絕對具有一致性的設計理念.所以說高手單看字就能識真假.
3.   就以十六年造孫中山陵墓幣來說.幣面文字的防偽設計理念.同樣具有一致性.也就是說該幣幾乎所有文字的長橫劃在與其他筆劃交錯處會開始呈現分節.粗細.立體.及角度變化.這些刻意變化的設計.更突顯出假幣文字的平淡無奇.庸庸碌碌.
4.   個人認為如想透徹中國古老機制幣.認識中文字是有必要的.

Offline linlaujiou

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Re: 1911 China coin to see is to believe
« Reply #79 on: May 16, 2017, 08:37:11 PM »
1.   關於判斷機制幣的真假.在數年前我就已經決定不再以評級入盒幣做為真假的依據.
2.   流通幣版式多.那就以樣幣為例.只要蒐集多數量相同幣種評級入盒幣.再分別比對各幣細部特徵.將會發現該等所謂樣幣全非同模.那到底何者為真.我得到的結論是…全假.
3.   歡迎以同樣方式驗證.   N28
 

Offline linlaujiou

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Re: 1911 China coin to see is to believe
« Reply #80 on: May 17, 2017, 12:49:59 AM »
1.底板暗記型態多變.附圖為陽刻陰刻同時對照存在的底板掀層暗記.
2.兩枚寶奉版不同模.紅圈標示平行直線陽刻凸起線條為寶奉版共同暗記.陽刻暗記的缺點是容易遭磨損消失.
3.在論壇裏.只要適當表達自己對錢幣的看法即可..因為每個人對機制特徵的領悟不同. 看法沒有對錯之分.也不用嘗試說服他人接受自己觀點.眼力決定視界.淡然處之.等時機到了.自會明白.

Offline fwang2450

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Re: 1911 China coin to see is to believe
« Reply #81 on: May 17, 2017, 11:40:47 AM »
林先生,我貼的那張圖裡是古塔銅章,完全用手工在1:1的鋼模上陰刻出來。上海造幣廠八十年代初做了一批手雕銅章,是當時的設計/雕刻師練手用的。這些手雕章的最後一道工藝,是磨平,把手雕痕跡去除,但是這些文字被漏掉了。這些不是修模痕。我請這套章的設計師兼雕刻師曾成滬先生看過這些照片,他自己都不知道有這些痕跡。其實塔基上也有手雕痕。我沒有拍大圖。後來再版的章上就很平滑。

您說的暗記不能完全令人信服。這些痕跡沒有特定的形狀、位置、特徵,不像人工特地所為。換句話說,您的暗記說無法提出反證,那就無法討論下去,因為您可以把任何位置出現的任何形狀的痕跡都說成暗記,只要它們重複就行。修模痕也可以說成暗記,工作模上的磕碰也可以說成暗記。這些暗記看作模具特徵比較合適,可以是真模具上的特徵,也可以是假模具上的特徵。


Offline poconopenn

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Re: 1911 China coin to see is to believe
« Reply #82 on: May 17, 2017, 03:49:01 PM »
The definition of hidden mark of coin is a very small mark which can only be detected under the high power magnifier and usually are hidden inside the design (raised part of device) not on the field (flat surface). It does not make any sense when you claimed those long and shape scratched lines and large marks (as shown in your latest post) on the flat surface of the device as hidden marks. The field of the device is always smooth and flat. Any marks or raised lines on the field are caused by contact during the circulation or defected production die. Your claiming those marks on the field as either knife marks or hidden marks is just totally wrong.

The knife marks usually will not visible when the circulated coin with a condition below VF, since knife marks are only on the raised part of the device, not on the flat surface of the coin. Attached picture (copied from SANDC’s picture in the pagoda thread) is a good example of long knife marks from hand engraved pagoda medal as mentioned by Fwang in his post. It is clearly visible in UNC condition.

Please post pictures of the whole device, not a small section of the coin. The determination of authenticity of the coin has to be based on the whole device, not a small section or knife marks.

Up to now, you have not responded to my comments about the “incorrect wear patterns” of your coins.

Offline fwang2450

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Re: 1911 China coin to see is to believe
« Reply #83 on: May 17, 2017, 04:48:56 PM »
林先生,再次提醒一下。您的拍照能力與您要研究的題目遠遠不符。要研究刀痕、修模痕、字體的細小變化這些微觀特徵,您得先拍出清晰的照片才能與眾人溝通、討論。以下是拇指大的一分流通硬幣的照片。第三張上可以看出年號上的mechanical doubling。您也可以去vamworld.com上看看美國人研究摩根銀幣細節時拍的照片。您用放大鏡拍的照片無論在色彩還是清晰度上都不盡人意。也許您自己看慣了,不覺得。別人看起來花眼。

Offline Little Finger

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Re: 1911 China coin to see is to believe
« Reply #84 on: May 17, 2017, 09:19:04 PM »
Flower eyes, lol.

Offline linlaujiou

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Re: 1911 China coin to see is to believe
« Reply #85 on: May 18, 2017, 09:31:39 PM »
1.   首發.百十年來連龍的傳人也未見的長鬚龍樣幣真面目截圖.
2.   龍首兩道造幣設計者防偽巧思一致性的蝕刻暗記.成功防偽.也讓錢幣鑑定公司的實力蒙塵..
3.   龍首兩道蝕刻暗記佈局.造成龍面破相.個人認為這是長鬚龍宣統三年未能成為流通幣主角的首要原因.
4.   理解幣面瑕疵的成因.絕對有助於錢幣真假的判斷.
5.   某家錢幣鑑定公司老闆對我說.樣幣精美.沒有暗記.聽聞此言當下.是林杯打自斷奶以後所受到的最大一次驚嚇.
6.   為了正確傳承.須大膽.堅持.合作.克服逆境.
7.   驗證歷史.非賣品….撿漏當撿如此漏.

Offline linlaujiou

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Re: 1911 China coin to see is to believe
« Reply #86 on: May 18, 2017, 10:54:58 PM »
多謝諸位朋友回帖指教..個人對現代幣沒有涉獵研究.
君子於其所不知.蓋闕如也.僅會參考回帖內容.但不會表示意見.尚祈見諒. N48

Offline poconopenn

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Re: 1911 China coin to see is to believe
« Reply #87 on: May 19, 2017, 04:16:32 PM »
1.   首發.百十年來連龍的傳人也未見的長鬚龍樣幣真面目截圖.
2.   龍首兩道造幣設計者防偽巧思一致性的蝕刻暗記.成功防偽.也讓錢幣鑑定公司的實力蒙塵..
3.   龍首兩道蝕刻暗記佈局.造成龍面破相.個人認為這是長鬚龍宣統三年未能成為流通幣主角的首要原因.
4.   理解幣面瑕疵的成因.絕對有助於錢幣真假的判斷.
5.   某家錢幣鑑定公司老闆對我說.樣幣精美.沒有暗記.聽聞此言當下.是林杯打自斷奶以後所受到的最大一次驚嚇.
6.   為了正確傳承.須大膽.堅持.合作.克服逆境.
7.   驗證歷史.非賣品….撿漏當撿如此漏.


As I have stated many times, the hidden marks/ knife marks will not be able to see if the coin is in VF condition. Your claim of those scratch marks as hidden marks/knife marks is simply false and total illogical.
 
[/quote]
林先生,再次提醒一下。您的拍照能力與您要研究的題目遠遠不符。要研究刀痕、修模痕、字體的細小變化這些微觀特徵,您得先拍出清晰的照片才能與眾人溝通、討論。以下是拇指大的一分流通硬幣的照片。第三張上可以看出年號上的mechanical doubling。您也可以去vamworld.com上看看美國人研究摩根銀幣細節時拍的照片。您用放大鏡拍的照片無論在色彩還是清晰度上都不盡人意。也許您自己看慣了,不覺得。別人看起來花眼。
Frank,

Very nice picture. It shows not only mechanical doubling, but also shows the coin is made with a  poorly polished working die (hairlines are only on the field, not on the design).




Offline linlaujiou

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Re: 1911 China coin to see is to believe
« Reply #88 on: May 31, 2017, 04:06:25 AM »
1.   民國三年袁大頭發行流通超過5億枚.版式超過1000種.唯獨L.GIORGI英文簽字版僅試鑄樣幣即成絕響.原因何在?百年來始終是個謎. 樣幣既然精美.在無其他外在條件制約下.為何不能發行流通使用..可見必有隱情.
2.   1910至1919年9月.義籍L.GIORGI在中國造幣廠擔任首席雕模技師職務.直接參與了宣三大清銀幣至民國八年造袁大頭的造幣鋼模雕製.
3.   1914民國三年袁大頭試鑄簽字版.L.GIORGI藝高膽大.在袁像鬍子旁底板設計了陽刻漸層防偽暗記.有破相疑慮.與1911宣統三年長鬚龍破相(有前例)結局相同.均被當局禁止發行流通.這就是真相.
4.   驗證歷史.非賣品.保真機制.撿漏當撿如此漏.

Offline linlaujiou

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Re: 1911 China coin to see is to believe
« Reply #89 on: May 31, 2017, 05:13:24 AM »
海不擇眾川故能成其大..不同看法需要的是理解.而非被迫服從.日後有心人自會驗證不同看法的對與錯...

但是.如果隨便就把人扣上宣傳假幣的屎盆子.那就不對了.

錢幣是否符合機制?所貼圖文細節已足可說明.差別只在個人能否領悟而已.倘若無法領悟.再多言語也是多餘.