Author Topic: The Journey of the Chinese Classical Garden Series of Medals  (Read 169677 times)

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andrewlee10

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Re: The Journey of the Chinese Classical Garden Series of Medals
« Reply #240 on: July 04, 2015, 09:43:54 PM »
Shanghai Mint did not choose this series for experiment. It is the group of private collectors who demanded the different technologies, such as deep dish and high relief. Shanghai Mint just followed along. The process shows that Shanghai Mint was not prepared for the high relief on Yuanmingyuan, and did not foresee the difficulty. They cracked dozens of dies, and thought of pre-forming the blank to reduce the pressure required, which failed because of alignment issues. I guess they would not have accepted this project had they known the difficulty. But now they do have more experience, with fewer dies cracked for the Mountain Resort.

Thank's for your information. It is good to keep on trying.

KOT good karma not bad karma ;) I use your trade mark keke

Offline fwang2450

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Re: The Journey of the Chinese Classical Garden Series of Medals
« Reply #241 on: July 04, 2015, 09:46:15 PM »
When and how will the distributors (Malaysia and China) release more of these?
I just asked the distributors. Their inventory is already low. Nobody is willing to sell to them and so they cannot replenish their inventory. Their offering price of the silver proof is at RMB1050 now.

barsenault

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Re: The Journey of the Chinese Classical Garden Series of Medals
« Reply #242 on: July 04, 2015, 09:49:13 PM »
Call me crazy, spiteful...etc...but I totally disagree with this approach. And I have a sneaking suspicion that many collectors of this series would agree with me, if not publicly, privately.  Why not make the box available to everyone? Did it really add that much cost?

Offline fwang2450

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Re: The Journey of the Chinese Classical Garden Series of Medals
« Reply #243 on: July 04, 2015, 10:00:56 PM »
Call me crazy, spiteful...etc...but I totally disagree with this approach. And I have a sneaking suspicion that many collectors of this series would agree with me, if not publicly, privately.  Why not make the box available to everyone? Did it really add that much cost?
It was a group decision. Please understand this is just a group of individual collectors, not some organization with great insight/foresight and decision making power. I have heard people say that they would rather be consistent. Honestly, I don't understand why the box has become such an issue. If you grade the medal, it is separated from the box anyway. Many Chinese collectors have dumped the boxes because they are too bulky.

Offline fwang2450

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Re: The Journey of the Chinese Classical Garden Series of Medals
« Reply #244 on: July 04, 2015, 10:12:33 PM »
One more reason of the tight supply of the Mountain Resort is that the Chinese domestic distributor is selling to those who are not coin/medal collectors, the so called "outsiders", unlike what happened with previous releases. These medals are considered out of the market, as those people do not have access to the numismatic market and are unlikely to sell them back, even after the price increase. This is a clever market strategy, but it also means that when his inventory dwindles, to less than half of the 400 pieces he received right after the release, he cannot buy back. With nobody selling to him, he has to slow down his sales.

barsenault

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Re: The Journey of the Chinese Classical Garden Series of Medals
« Reply #245 on: July 04, 2015, 10:30:52 PM »
Hey Frank, thanks for the explanation.  Some folks do collect boxes and cases, along with the medal or coin.  I'm not one of them. But trying to help others understand why the difference. Thanks again.

Offline KeepOnTrying!

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Re: The Journey of the Chinese Classical Garden Series of Medals
« Reply #246 on: July 04, 2015, 10:36:57 PM »
Phew!  N26 N35 :001_wub:
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Offline KeepOnTrying!

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Re: The Journey of the Chinese Classical Garden Series of Medals
« Reply #247 on: July 05, 2015, 02:58:11 PM »
Please can someone tell me what the release price for the Colored Brass Mountain Resort medal is in Yuan or USD. Thanks!
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Offline KeepOnTrying!

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Re: The Journey of the Chinese Classical Garden Series of Medals
« Reply #248 on: July 05, 2015, 05:23:11 PM »
Mountain Resort Medals' Buying Discussion for the Newbie!

I assume that most forum members are experienced coin collectors, investors and/or sellers and don't need my advice on how to procure this particular medal series. This short piece is mainly directed at a guest or new forum member who is not experienced or has not lived through a Classical Garden medal launch.

The Mountain Resort medal has been in the market for just less than one month. It consists of four medal N25s in the set namely Silver, Antique Silver, Brass, and Colored Brass medals. The medals were initially released in China and were sold directly to the public who pre-ordered the items. Some of the silver medals were allocated to two major distributors for post-launch sales.

The release price for these medals (ungraded) as far as I know, is shown in the Table together with other specific items of interest. According to my sources the price of the colored Brass medal was not announced. The price for a prior medal series' colored brass medal was 350 Yuan ($USD56.39) but the other three Mountain Resort medals had an offer prices that was more than those of previous series. The eBay sales prices do not include those where "offers" were made as the eventual sale amount was not made public.

Medal/Mintage   Release Price (Yuan)   Release Price ($USD)   eBay Sales/Offer ($USD)   Mintage
Silver (2oz)                      700                                 112.78                  215-249                              1000
Antique Silver (2oz)          900                                 145.01                  248-278                               380
Brass                               200                                  32.22                   99-120                                 420
Colored Brass                     ?                                        ?                     350-399                                180

Some graded medals (PF69 and PF70) have already been sold on eBay. Click the "sold listings" side button on eBay to get that information.

If you did not secure any one of these medals pre-launch in China you most likely will have to buy either from the two silver medal distributors or from resellers in China or abroad. The prices vary depending where you find the medals. Recent posts in this forum suggests that a three medal set consisting of the silver, antique silver and brass medals is being offered online by resellers in China for 2800-3000Yuan ($USD451.13-483.36). The same set was offered recently on eBay for $USD658 although that item has now been withdrawn.

What to do depends on your comfort level with your knowledge of precious metals and how much you are ready to spend on the medals. The silver medal price is likely to be the most stable due to having the largest mintage whereas the other medals' valuation may be more unstable due to their relatively low mintage and uncertain supply. Virtually all the lower mintage medals you see on eBay and other online coin auction sites will be from re-sellers.

The method of distribution of these medals has made it impossible for any particular seller to have a large hoard of medals that can be used to influence the market significantly. [This comment does not include the two silver medal distributors and does not imply positive or negative inference on their sales; I have absolutely no idea of who they are and how they are selling these medals. However, it seems that one or both of them may now be selling the ungraded silver medal for 1050Yuan ($USD169.17). Nothing negative or untoward has been documented with regards to their sales. They also seem to be upfront with their prices. They are supposed to be buffers and a price stabilizing mechanism from what I hear]. One individual eBay or other online seller is not likely to have a lot of medals on hand at each point in time.

The minimum price that you can buy these medals is at the launch price outlined in the Table but this is not likely at this time as prices have already risen past that amount. The future trajectory of the prices is also uncertain; although a continued upward trend is likely given recent price trends it is also impossible to be sure that the prices won't fall in future.

Finally, if you are one of those who like graded coins and medals you have to decide on what grade you want to buy and at what price then search eBay and online to see what the offerings are.

Study other posts in this forum thread to gain a comprehensive idea of various perspectives of the Mountain Resort medals and other medals in the Classical Garden series.

Best wishes and Goodluck!

Disclaimer: I am a self-taught coin collector and investor. I have bought the medals I discussed in this post. I am not a coin expert. This posting is for fun, education and scholastic exercise. Please consult family, coin experts and your investment adviser(s) for advice if you decide to buy coins and medals.


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Offline KeepOnTrying!

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Re: The Journey of the Chinese Classical Garden Series of Medals
« Reply #249 on: July 07, 2015, 01:02:27 AM »
The following table shows the actual mintage of the Classical Garden medals released so far. Information was abstracted from fwang2450's table posted in "Reply #8, December 17, 2014". I added the data for the Mountain Resort medal.

Gold has had the lowest mintage followed by Copper. Both medal types have been largely reserved for the sponsors except in the case of Xiequyuan where the four medal types were made available for sale to the public.

Silver is the only medal minted consistently in all six medal releases. Brass proof has only been minted in the last two medal series.

This comparative table view can also be used to determine possible future trends in valuation of specific medals. For example the Brass proof YMY medal mintage is double that of the Mountain Resort medal. Does it mean that the latter will be more valuable? The Xiequyuan antique silver medal has the lowest mintage followed by the Lan Ting variety; both are difficult to get and the least affordable compared to antique silver medals from other medal series.

A table displaying NGC/PCGS grading profile for these medals will complement the present table.
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Offline madronya

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Re: The Journey of the Chinese Classical Garden Series of Medals
« Reply #250 on: July 07, 2015, 03:52:03 PM »
I don't know if this has been posted before,  this is such a long thread I can't scan it all,  but I have noticed that my Mountain Resort Antique silver medal has a different obverse/reverse orientation compared to the silver, brass, and matte brass.

The latter three have medallic orientation, where you flip the medal left to right to see the reverse in the correct position.  The antique silver is the opposite, "coin orientation",   where you have to flip it top to bottom.

strange...


Offline fwang2450

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Re: The Journey of the Chinese Classical Garden Series of Medals
« Reply #251 on: July 07, 2015, 04:00:40 PM »
I don't know if this has been posted before,  this is such a long thread I can't scan it all,  but I have noticed that my Mountain Resort Antique silver medal has a different obverse/reverse orientation compared to the silver, brass, and matte brass.

The latter three have medallic orientation, where you flip the medal left to right to see the reverse in the correct position.  The antique silver is the opposite, "coin orientation",   where you have to flip it top to bottom.

strange...


This is intentional. I believe after Lan Ting, all the antique finish medals had coin orientation, so that people can tell the "true" antique finish from self-made antique finish.

Offline madronya

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Re: The Journey of the Chinese Classical Garden Series of Medals
« Reply #252 on: July 07, 2015, 04:11:55 PM »
thanks!  makes sense.

Offline KeepOnTrying!

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Re: The Journey of the Chinese Classical Garden Series of Medals
« Reply #253 on: July 07, 2015, 06:14:50 PM »
I don't know if this has been posted before,  this is such a long thread I can't scan it all,  but I have noticed that my Mountain Resort Antique silver medal has a different obverse/reverse orientation compared to the silver, brass, and matte brass.

The latter three have medallic orientation, where you flip the medal left to right to see the reverse in the correct position.  The antique silver is the opposite, "coin orientation",   where you have to flip it top to bottom.

strange...



This is intentional. I believe after Lan Ting, all the antique finish medals had coin orientation, so that people can tell the "true" antique finish from self-made antique finish.

Yes, I remember when I first noticed the different orientation on the antique silver medal. With my heart pounding I quickly searched various internet resources thinking I had a rotation error coin! It didn't take long for me to see that they were all like that. Thoughts of untold riches quickly evaporated!!!

This also answers a question I have asked myself many times; how do you recognize DIY antique silver coins? My only hope then was that the grading agencies will pick it up due to their expertize. Now I know how, at least for the post Lan Ting classical garden medals.

Thanks for the observation and answers!
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Offline poconopenn

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Re: The Journey of the Chinese Classical Garden Series of Medals
« Reply #254 on: July 08, 2015, 12:09:54 AM »
Now that Bob mentioned me saying the "mintage trap", I might as well explain it a little further.

Rarity is the top priority with circulating coins, whether it is a pattern, a bank specimen, a trial strike or a survivor of melting/confiscation/aborted production run. Circulating coins are strictly controlled and regulated by the government. They normally have a humongous mintage. Circulating coins with a small mintage are exceptions and as such they are very special.

With medals, often the mintage is determined by the mint or the private group/person commissioning the medal. The mintage can be manipulated to the advantage of the sponsors/commissioners. It can be artificially very small. If we apply the same rules as those for circulating coins and blindly seek rarity with medals, we may fall into the mintage trap.

I am not saying rarity is not important with medals. The Great Wall silver medals are extremely rare and highly sought after. There are some early brass medals mostly from Shanghai Mint which have a tiny surviving mintage due to loss after their release. (Who cared about brass medals with little melting  concept of value?) Their current rarity was not intentional at the time of striking. Before someone decides to fork out a large sum of money for a new medal of a small mintage, beware of the difference between circulating coins and medals. There are tons of such medals of a small mintage out there, and more are on the way. If I see a piedfort version of the Nanjing pandas with an even smaller mintage, I won't be surprised at all. Keeping a perspective on it will save us from falling into the mintage trap. 


Just want to give additional insight of “mintage trap” for medal collection.
 
Collector base:
 
The valuation of any commercial product is determined by the ratio of supply and demand. For coin collection, the mintage is supply and collector base is demand. Assuming the ratio of number of circulated coin collector and number of PM commemorative coin collector is 20 to 1 and the ratio of PM commemorative coin and medal is also 20 to 1, the valuation of medal with mintage of 100 will be about the same as the PM commemorative coin with a mintage of 2,000 and circulated coin with a mintage of 40,000. (The ratios given herein are for illustration and no scientific base, but the trend, IMO, is correct.)

Brand name:

Brand name takes time and money to establish. For example, currently, 1995 W 1 oz. US silver eagle with a mintage of 30,125 has a valuation of $4,200 (PF69). Its mintage is higher than proof 1 oz. silver pandas (1989-1996) which have a mintage from about 8,000 to 25,000. The current valuation of 1 oz. silver proof pandas (PF69) is about $200 to $600.  It is true that the collector base of American Eagle is greater than silver panda, but the brand name definitely also plays a role in this instant.

The quality of Official mint medal vs. mint medal:

Most medals issued prior to 2000 are official mint products which require the approval of the People’s Bank of China or China Gold Coin Inc. After 2000, all third party commissioned medals produced by Shanghai, Shenyang, Shenzhen and Nanjing do not have the approval of the PBOC or CGCI and in practical, be called as “mint medal”, not “official mint medal” as labelled by NGC.  It is my understanding that some of the "mint medals" may not made at production lines at mint for coin production. There are differences in quality control process for coin and medal if they are not produced at the same production line. IMO, there is a quality difference between “official mint medal” and “mint medal”.

Attached is an official mint medal issued in 2009 in commemorating the 60th birthday of the founding of the PRC by China Gold Coin Inc. and produced by Shenzhen Mint. This plated copper medal was received as gift when I purchased the coin set. The quality of this medal matches the coins recently produced at Shenzhen Mint.