Topic: 2015 China (Shanghai Mint) 2oz Antique Silver Mammoth Medal

[KeepOnTrying!]

I noticed the antique silver version of the Mammoth medal on eBay this A.M. Shanghai mint product weighing 2oz. Diameter looks smaller than that of the 50mm Brass Mammoth medal. Seems already selling in China. Mintage 380. Does anyone know what is happening in China with regards to this medal? Any additional details? Thanks.

[fwang2450]

This is an offshoot of the copper medals. Originally only the big copper was announced. Then came the small copper. Here is the silver medal. What other metal can we think of?

[KeepOnTrying!]

This is an offshoot of the copper medals. Originally only the big copper was announced. Then came the small copper. Here is the silver medal. What other metal can we think of?

Clarification; I believe the big and small medals you referred to are made of brass and not copper.

People closer to Shanghai Mint should be able to confirm what the medal/metal type and size roll out plans they have for the Mammoth medal.

Brass is supposed to be one of the best metals for sculpture and medals. Silver will not provide enough contrast while antique silver improves on the contrast and depth perception.

We now have quite a lot of copper/brass/bronze medals being output by Chinese mints. People may be buying these medals from the hobby perspective but it is possible that some may also be hoping (privately) to replicate the price gains of like-metal early MCC. This will probably not happen again for several decades, pending attrition of the current medals already produced.

I have always believed that the precious metal type and content of a medal boosts its numismatic appeal but that may be my own view which is not substantiated by data! I always feel that at the worst my silver or gold medals will fetch me a bullion pricing if everything fails.

Therefore the antique silver mammoth medal interests me a little bit.

[andrewlee10]

No way for me to pay numic price and in worst to get bulluon value. I rather dump to sea lol.

The brass version price will down in one week. 10 to 30 pieces available. Grab it fast if u have the preparation the worst it will worth bullion value only as KOT thought.

The front of the mammoth look great but reserve side so so only. I bought few and have few graded.

[KeepOnTrying!]

No way for me to pay numic price and in worst to get bulluon value. I rather dump to sea lol.

The brass version price will down in one week. 10 to 30 pieces available. Grab it fast if u have the preparation the worst it will worth bullion value only as KOT thought.

The front of the mammoth look great but reserve side so so only. I bought few and have few graded.

I remember reading about the "Great Depression" as a kid. I remember reading accounts of how many people "lost everything". I remember how they described people clutching sheaves of "now worthless documents" which certified ownership of previously acclaimed "sound investments". The total collapse of various asset classes and the consequences were more than some could tolerate and a few jumped off buildings. This last desperate act of a severely traumatized individual crying for help unfortunately still happens now.

I have been careful to control my expectations of owning precious and non-precious metal MCC (coins, medals and artifacts). The valuation of brass, copper and bronze coins and medals is determined by several ephemeral and nebulous factors each of which can become upended without warning. The rarity of a particular coin or medal, for example, may become less of a valuation factor if a large stash is suddenly "discovered" as has already happened a few times.

There is still a lot about MCC that is unknown or not published especially outside China  and this always acts as a potential deterrent to the maintenance and potential appreciation of items, especially the new releases. This can be illustrated with the Mammoth medal. There is no information on how many of the 90mm and 50mm brass medals that were actually produced, leaving collectors outguessing each other. If the full mintage was not reached will the mint produce the shortfall this year, next year or in twenty years? The production of an antique silver medal was also not announced as part of a proposed Mammoth medal series at the beginning. This ad hoc minting style does not improve the confidence of buyers/collectors. What other Mammoth medal will we see next? Will there be a gold Mammoth medal, pewter, copper, bronze, antique copper, antique bronze, aluminium-zinc-copper, nickel-copper?!!

This is why when I think of buying any MCC I look at the best and worst case scenarios as part of the decision making process. I hope that the monetary value of the item will be maintained, at the minimum, but preferably increased over time. However, I have to accept the fact that the value may not be maintained and could depreciate. The potential for depreciation IMO should be more with the non-precious metal coins and medals compared to those made from gold and silver.

A precious metal coin or medal has potential price support points along a depreciation slope. One of the major support points for any particular MCC is what I call the "average MCC metal content premium" for want of a better term. This is the average price for 1oz newly minted Chinese numismatic coin, the price that most collectors should feel comfortable paying for that coin or medal. I suggest that the premium is somewhere in the range of $50-150 for a 1oz silver coin or medal. Another price support point below which a numismatic coin/medal is most unlikely to go is the bullion price of the base metal, which is at an (optimistic) average of $15 now.

Yes, no one who buys a numismatic precious metal coin or medal hopes/envisages that the price of the item will drop to that of a bullion coin. However, this is a potential worst case scenario possibility and I am not going to jump off buildings if that happens.

What will you be selling your 10-30 x 50mm Mammoth medals for? $108 or above? Or less than $73? If less than $73 what happens to the value of a mammoth medal bought at $108 or thereabouts? Suppose a more aggressive seller then tries to offload his/her medals at $45 apiece. Assume the full mintage was run and a cash-strapped seller wants to liquidate his/her inventory at cost or even at a loss? The 50mm Mammoth could sell for as low as $20. It is not unimaginable!!! And what about the bullion price of brass?

[barsenault]

Not to mention that the planned mintage is 3000 for the smaller version...and if it is not fulfilled, they can, at any time, re-mint the rest to meet the quota.  Creating more supply, and not enough demand, driving down prices further, which is good for the collector.  But don't expect an increase in price any time soon. Unlike the Perth Mint, who yearly comes out with a declared mintage.  Once a mintage is declared, they can't go back and re-mint.  This makes collectors happy, and gives peace of mind knowing that what they are holding is one of x minted, and there will be no more minted.  The Chinese mints should learn from the Perth Mint. Just say'n.

[andrewlee10]

There is still a lot about MCC that is unknown or not published especially outside China  and this always acts as a potential deterrent to the maintenance and potential appreciation of items, especially the new releases. This can be illustrated with the Mammoth medal. There is no information on how many of the 90mm and 50mm brass medals that were actually produced, leaving collectors outguessing each other. If the full mintage was not reached will the mint produce the shortfall this year, next year or in twenty years? The production of an antique silver medal was also not announced as part of a proposed Mammoth medal series at the beginning. This ad hoc minting style does not improve the confidence of buyers/collectors. What other Mammoth medal will we see next? Will there be a gold Mammoth medal, pewter, copper, bronze, antique copper, antique bronze, aluminium-zinc-copper, nickel-copper?!!

This is why when I think of buying any MCC I look at the best and worst case scenarios as part of the decision making process. I hope that the monetary value of the item will be maintained, at the minimum, but preferably increased over time. However, I have to accept the fact that the value may not be maintained and could depreciate. The potential for depreciation IMO should be more with the non-precious metal coins and medals compared to those made from gold and silver.

MCC is referring to china modern coin instead of medal. You might mix it or typo. MCC are full of information BUT not fully in English. There are very rare that there is still a lot about MCC that is unknown or not published. Please point out 20 types of MCC which are not published. 20 types considers a small fraction of MCC. China medal has many information available. However, it is not systematic and fully in English. The information available is much poorer than MCC. This is the unique features which let collectors to do research and take the adventures. Fishing skills is crucial for hunting right medal which can be learning by experience and sharing of information with some medal collectors with significant skills and experiences. However, it is not everyone willing to share it because it is their business skills to earn businesses. They even give you fault information and make rumour. This apply to certain MCC too. In fact, some dealers are monopoly certain type of MCC. They buy majority of it and control the market. Scallop Lunar S2 of certain lunar is one of it. You need to know the people and the insider information to know who monopoly it and he/she monopoly power and objective to earn. Many factors will affects the price which some is controllable and some are not. Knowing more information is better. However, accessing to the information is one of the issue in western countries who does not read mandarin. Accessing the insider information is another important issue. Who willing to share the insider information to public since it is insider information LOL.

China Medal and many MCC actual mintage are not publishing by the mints. It is published by private person who claim has the information and done a significant research. He can be well known and widely accepted in coin market. However, it is estimation and not officially by the mints. I will trust the figures if he is neutral. Therefore, it is adventures and mystery for collectors to find the answer and make the judgments. This is part of the fun of MCC and medal.

Mammoth might be good example for few years down the road BUT not now. You can estimate the mintage by checking with few well-known china medal dealers who carrying this products. However, you might have no access to majority of them. As I mentioned early, insider information and skills to fish. 

As my knowledge, Pewter, aluminium-zinc-copper and nickel-copper are seldom use for china medal for 2 decades. Aluminium-zinc-copper and nickel-copper  have been used from earlier years of China medal. I am not sure will anyone medal developer in china would like to try those material.

Buyers must take into all known factors into considerations to make best decision making even you might not access to majority of the information. Try to get information as much as possible and build relationship and networking by acting humble. Filter the information and seek second opinion all times.

MCC (fiat money) has more collectors than china medal (non-fiat). However both are different in nature and collection. You cannot use same range of factors to judge both. MCC are mainly make by precious metal in past 30 plus years. China medal more on both non-precious and precious metal.

[andrewlee10]

A precious metal coin or medal has potential price support points along a depreciation slope. One of the major support points for any particular MCC is what I call the "average MCC metal content premium" for want of a better term. This is the average price for 1oz newly minted Chinese numismatic coin, the price that most collectors should feel comfortable paying for that coin or medal. I suggest that the premium is somewhere in the range of $50-150 for a 1oz silver coin or medal. Another price support point below which a numismatic coin/medal is most unlikely to go is the bullion price of the base metal, which is at an (optimistic) average of $15 now.

Majority of the recently release MCC from Xu Bei Hong silver premium is higher than 150USD even the silver spot is keeping down for the past few weeks. It is hard to justify the premium of MCC in general market. You can set you own premium BUT be realistic and adjust according to market situation.

The 150 highest premium still valid for china medal BUT not MCC as mentioned above. However situation might change from time to time.   

[andrewlee10]

What will you be selling your 10-30 x 50mm Mammoth medals for? $108 or above? Or less than $73? If less than $73 what happens to the value of a mammoth medal bought at $108 or thereabouts? Suppose a more aggressive seller then tries to offload his/her medals at $45 apiece. Assume the full mintage was run and a cash-strapped seller wants to liquidate his/her inventory at cost or even at a loss? The 50mm Mammoth could sell for as low as $20. It is not unimaginable!!! And what about the bullion price of brass?

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_odkw=mammoth+china+medal+brass&_osacat=0&_from=R40&_trksid=p2045573.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC0.H0.Xmammoth+china+medal+brass+50+mm.TRS0&_nkw=mammoth+china+medal+brass+50+mm&_sacat=0

The current price range for mammoth omp 50 mm brass medal price range from  74 -108 USD which price range is big gap. majority of the sellers are reputable BUT their price gap is huge. Some of them have their own webpage for order which the price is lower due to no ebay fee.

Good question will price down to USD20 ? My answer is I will not sell at USD20 which not even cover the shipping fee not even mention of the cost of the medal. 45 USD might not feasible too. This is simple calculation.

I do not think Tincat, Naomi, lucky money and dragonzheng those ebay seller will offload at below 50 USD Free shipping in ebay. ebay and paypal fee which is 12% minimum of the transaction if 50 means net is 44 plus exchange rate lower in paypal which means they might get 42 or lower which might not able to cover their costs. I do not believe all of them are going to sell below cost and they are not cash-trapped till this level which mammoth is only one of their product.

The lowest price at ebay is 74 so the person who choose to buy at highest price has their own reason even I am selling below 74USD.

whatever a price seller set is their own choice as we see the price range for this medal in ebay is significant as the URL attached here. The price range will be more significant after I post to ebay. NGC will be out first. My view is bottom rock of this medal will reach so if you like it buy it and if NOT better not touch it regardless of the size and material.

The NGC slab price will down which I intend to sell at low price to clear my stock which I do not like this series after buying it. 3 pieces NGC 68 and 2 pcs NGC 69 and some omp. It will be on ebay and chinesemedals.com. 

[KeepOnTrying!]

MCC is referring to china modern coin instead of medal. You might mix it or typo. MCC are full of information BUT not fully in English. There are very rare that there is still a lot about MCC that is unknown or not published. Please point out 20 types of MCC which are not published. 20 types considers a small fraction of MCC. China medal has many information available. However, it is not systematic and fully in English. The information available is much poorer than MCC. This is the unique features which let collectors to do research and take the adventures. Fishing skills is crucial for hunting right medal which can be learning by experience and sharing of information with some medal collectors with significant skills and experiences. However, it is not everyone willing to share it because it is their business skills to earn businesses. They even give you fault information and make rumour. This apply to certain MCC too. In fact, some dealers are monopoly certain type of MCC. They buy majority of it and control the market. Scallop Lunar S2 of certain lunar is one of it. You need to know the people and the insider information to know who monopoly it and he/she monopoly power and objective to earn. Many factors will affects the price which some is controllable and some are not. Knowing more information is better. However, accessing to the information is one of the issue in western countries who does not read mandarin. Accessing the insider information is another important issue. Who willing to share the insider information to public since it is insider information LOL.

China Medal and many MCC actual mintage are not publishing by the mints. It is published by private person who claim has the information and done a significant research. He can be well known and widely accepted in coin market. However, it is estimation and not officially by the mints. I will trust the figures if he is neutral. Therefore, it is adventures and mystery for collectors to find the answer and make the judgments. This is part of the fun of MCC and medal.

Mammoth might be good example for few years down the road BUT not now. You can estimate the mintage by checking with few well-known china medal dealers who carrying this products. However, you might have no access to majority of them. As I mentioned early, insider information and skills to fish. 

As my knowledge, Pewter, aluminium-zinc-copper and nickel-copper are seldom use for china medal for 2 decades. Aluminium-zinc-copper and nickel-copper  have been used from earlier years of China medal. I am not sure will anyone medal developer in china would like to try those material.

Buyers must take into all known factors into considerations to make best decision making even you might not access to majority of the information. Try to get information as much as possible and build relationship and networking by acting humble. Filter the information and seek second opinion all times.

MCC (fiat money) has more collectors than china medal (non-fiat). However both are different in nature and collection. You cannot use same range of factors to judge both. MCC are mainly make by precious metal in past 30 plus years. China medal more on both non-precious and precious metal.

MCC in initial usage referred mainly to fiat coins made by and for Chinese mints starting in 1979. Due to the increasing number and variety of non-fiat coins that have been made since, MCC at times is a term that covers both fiat and non-fiat coins the latter of which are also called medals. I liberally used MCC and the words "coins" and "medals" in my write up to refer to all modern Chinese precious and non-precious fiat and non-fiat coins.

There is controversy about coinage terminology and most of the Chinese coin forums have discussions on the matter. Badon, for example, has rather strong views. fwang2450 also has written on this. So have many others. Perhaps it is not who wins the argument that is the issue, it is the realization that there has been an evolution of Chinese coinage practices since the original terminology and abbreviation were instituted. This is similar to changes that have occurred all over arts and science necessitating the modification of older terminology or expanding their usage. "MCCM" could be a modification that encompasses "Modern Chinese Coins and Medals".

The above notwithstanding everything I wrote still stands and your account confirms my main contention which is that there is little information available on modern Chinese coins and medals. Yes, as time goes on good detective work and some well placed guesses provide additional information on issues relating to coins and medal produced in China. But this is not an optimal or much desired situation.

I agree with you that there may be more resource material written in Mandarin but that information is not directly available to non-Mandarin speakers/readers. This places them at a competitive disadvantage which in the longterm may have negative consequences on the trade in coins and medals. Although there may be an increasing domestic market for coins and medals, ignoring the needs of the large collector base outside China will be analogous to shooting yourself in the foot! Vibrant businesses and economies excel when they are able to pull in trade funds from outside their geographical regions. So a booming international trade in coins and medals adds to China's bottom line.

In the same token the seller or distributor who is able to provide his clients with adequate information on coins and medals including direct translations of documents written in Mandarin, is likely to do much better compared to others who hoard the information or do not understand that modern business success depends a lot on providing clients with extensive information. Gone are the days of paternalistic, patrichial, "mother knows best" business practices!

The bottom line is that people now have an extensive array of choices available to them. Even if Chinese mints have enjoyed success in certain aspects of the trade other country mints are also doing very well and taking market share (e.g. lunar coins and medals). Most of these non-Chinese mints provide extensive and accurate information on their products including mintage and descriptives of artwork and inspiration.

[KeepOnTrying!]

.............................................

Mammoth might be good example for few years down the road BUT not now. You can estimate the mintage by checking with few well-known china medal dealers who carrying this products. However, you might have no access to majority of them. As I mentioned early, insider information and skills to fish. 

As my knowledge, Pewter, aluminium-zinc-copper and nickel-copper are seldom use for china medal for 2 decades. Aluminium-zinc-copper and nickel-copper  have been used from earlier years of China medal. I am not sure will anyone medal developer in china would like to try those material.
....................................................

This is an offshoot of the copper medals. Originally only the big copper was announced. Then came the small copper. Here is the silver medal. What other metal can we think of?

......................
There is still a lot about MCC that is unknown or not published especially outside China  and this always acts as a potential deterrent to the maintenance and potential appreciation of items, especially the new releases. This can be illustrated with the Mammoth medal. There is no information on how many of the 90mm and 50mm brass medals that were actually produced, leaving collectors outguessing each other. If the full mintage was not reached will the mint produce the shortfall this year, next year or in twenty years? The production of an antique silver medal was also not announced as part of a proposed Mammoth medal series at the beginning. This ad hoc minting style does not improve the confidence of buyers/collectors. What other Mammoth medal will we see next? Will there be a gold Mammoth medal, pewter, copper, bronze, antique copper, antique bronze, aluminium-zinc-copper, nickel-copper?!!
..............................

My question was rhetoric echoing fwang2450's comments!

There is a recent trend towards producing an increasing number of metal types of coins and especially medals, based on one design. A classic example is the 2014 Nanjing (Two Lovely Pandas) Endangered Species medal (of which I own some). This can induce buyer fatigue especially if such mintage plans are not declared upfront.

Again, information is the key. If the plan is to mint different varieties of a coin or medal, this should be communicated upfront so that collectors/buyers can structure their purchase plans according to their interests. Chinese mints cannot continue moving the goal posts!

[KeepOnTrying!]

Majority of the recently release MCC from Xu Bei Hong silver premium is higher than 150USD even the silver spot is keeping down for the past few weeks. It is hard to justify the premium of MCC in general market. You can set you own premium BUT be realistic and adjust according to market situation.

The 150 highest premium still valid for china medal BUT not MCC as mentioned above. However situation might change from time to time.   

Again, I am happy that you concur with my concept of an "MCC metal premium". You have even given a more concrete example to support that concept. The range of $50-150 was just an educated guess from me. People who are more knowlegeable than me can even produce more accurate figures which can vary based on coinage type and variety. The idea still remains the same and that is if an individual is contemplating the pricing of a coin or medal the bullion price and trend as well as what others have recently paid for a coinage class with similar metal content will assist in determining what the true worth of the item in question is or should be.

[barsenault]

Great point! They can't continue to move the goal post. Somehow the Chinese mints or the one who commissions the series, must say what is being minted and how many, and then after a certain period, should declare a mintage, and after the declaration is made, no more should be minted, period! This protects the collector base.  If the Perth Mint can figure out how to do this, surely the chinese can too!

[KeepOnTrying!]

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_odkw=mammoth+china+medal+brass&_osacat=0&_from=R40&_trksid=p2045573.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC0.H0.Xmammoth+china+medal+brass+50+mm.TRS0&_nkw=mammoth+china+medal+brass+50+mm&_sacat=0

The current price range for mammoth omp 50 mm brass medal price range from  74 -108 USD which price range is big gap. majority of the sellers are reputable BUT their price gap is huge. Some of them have their own webpage for order which the price is lower due to no ebay fee.

Good question will price down to USD20 ? My answer is I will not sell at USD20 which not even cover the shipping fee not even mention of the cost of the medal. 45 USD might not feasible too. This is simple calculation.

I do not think Tincat, Naomi, lucky money and dragonzheng those ebay seller will offload at below 50 USD Free shipping in ebay. ebay and paypal fee which is 12% minimum of the transaction if 50 means net is 44 plus exchange rate lower in paypal which means they might get 42 or lower which might not able to cover their costs. I do not believe all of them are going to sell below cost and they are not cash-trapped till this level which mammoth is only one of their product.

The lowest price at ebay is 74 so the person who choose to buy at highest price has their own reason even I am selling below 74USD.

whatever a price seller set is their own choice as we see the price range for this medal in ebay is significant as the URL attached here. The price range will be more significant after I post to ebay. NGC will be out first. My view is bottom rock of this medal will reach so if you like it buy it and if NOT better not touch it regardless of the size and material.

The NGC slab price will down which I intend to sell at low price to clear my stock which I do not like this series after buying it. 3 pieces NGC 68 and 2 pcs NGC 69 and some omp. It will be on ebay and chinesemedals.com.  

Your sentiments are understandable. Not everyone likes every coin or medal released by the mints. It is actually not possible to like and buy all those items as most people do not have unlimited resources and storage. However, it seems that some people like the Mammoth medal because they have been buying that medal. The recently released antique silver medal is selling well too, on eBay at the moment. It is also rumored to be selling well in China but I don't have categorical information on that.

I must confess that I wasn't enomored with the brass Mammoth on initial release. Its features were very strong and severe. The subject, extinction, was also a sad matter which is also still ongoing for many other animal species. However, as time went on I began to see more into the medal; the new features I discovered in the medal each time I looked more carefully at it. I also appreciate the artistic risk taken to produce something that was not immediately "Chinese" to some onlookers. I have also noted comments by some others who did not like the word "mammoth" written in English!

China has a huge and rich trove of pre-historic animal deposits that are continually being discovered everyday. The mammoth is every bit as Chinese as it is for other countries in the world. It reminds us of what used to be and what could happen to other plants and animals that we take for granted, including us human beings. Heck, the Panda is still an endangered species and could already be extinct by now except for the intervention of the Chinese and other governments and we all who have stoked interest in the animal through our purchases and other activities that feature or use the Panda motif.

I don't know how good an investment the Mammoth medal will turn out to be. I look at it more as an educational tool; something you can share with your kids or grandchildren. The eventual four medal set could be displayed at home as a learning and conversation piece, at least until reports of break-ins and similar nefarious activities force you to sequester the ?now valuable set in the bank vault!

[KeepOnTrying!]

Great point! They can't continue to move the goal post. Somehow the Chinese mints or the one who commissions the series, must say what is being minted and how many, and then after a certain period, should declare a mintage, and after the declaration is made, no more should be minted, period! This protects the collector base.  If the Perth Mint can figure out how to do this, surely the chinese can too!

It also makes GREAT business sense. Your customers trust you and remain loyal if you are upfront with them. There are other mints I buy from; every year I already know what I will be buying and they provide mintage and other critically important information upfront.