Author Topic: China has announced a total of 8 trillion yuan stimulus  (Read 10356 times)

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Offline Gilmore

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China has announced a total of 8 trillion yuan stimulus
« on: August 26, 2012, 11:24:15 PM »
China has announced a total of 8 trillion yuan (£800bn) of "stimulus projects" to try to boost confidence in an economy that appears to be cooling faster than expected.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/china-business/9500548/China-announces-800bn-stimulus-to-boost-confidence.html

Offline Gilmore

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Re: China has announced a total of 8 trillion yuan stimulus
« Reply #1 on: August 26, 2012, 11:54:17 PM »
It appears that no other website other than 'The Telegraph' published this news which makes this article questionable.

Offline badon

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Re: China has announced a total of 8 trillion yuan stimulus
« Reply #2 on: August 27, 2012, 12:09:24 AM »
Inflation! This is what we've been waiting for!

Offline exchange

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Re: China has announced a total of 8 trillion yuan stimulus
« Reply #3 on: August 27, 2012, 07:37:06 AM »
China has announced a total of 8 trillion yuan (£800bn) of "stimulus projects" to try to boost confidence in an economy that appears to be cooling faster than expected.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/china-business/9500548/China-announces-800bn-stimulus-to-boost-confidence.html

Its amazing to hear US analysts talk about China's stimulus package and compare it to ours.... they can do it?, then we sure can because we are the United States... something a long those lines.... Unlike us which we have to "borrow" the money for the stimulus, this is there own money which they saved for a rainy day. Very big difference between the two.

exchange

Offline dragondollar

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Re: China has announced a total of 8 trillion yuan stimulus
« Reply #4 on: August 27, 2012, 09:18:09 AM »
Meanwhile, the Japanese managed to make an anime about economic crisis and bailouts. For fun:
http://www.chia-anime.com/the-money-of-soul-and-possibility-control

Offline pandamonium

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Re: China has announced a total of 8 trillion yuan stimulus
« Reply #5 on: August 27, 2012, 09:54:38 AM »
I read articles about 7 yrs ago that stated the debts cannot be paid by countries so they will all mass produce their currencies which will lead to total failure of paper money/computer cash.   In other words, the US dollar and other world currencies will equal zero.  This will stop world wide transportation of supplies (do you have a supply of coffee for example?).  This will also stop food production and transportation which caught my attention.  Today it is all coming true.  Precious metals will be money.  This is why the argument over bullion vs rare coins is on going.  Many say rare coins will equal bullion price and others say rare coins will be much more in demand.  Have no clue to outcome of this.   We can all see where this is headed.  No stopping this inflate money freight train so may as well be prepared............... 

Offline dragondollar

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Re: China has announced a total of 8 trillion yuan stimulus
« Reply #6 on: August 27, 2012, 10:33:27 AM »
Hyperinflation is like the rapture or zombie apocalypse, a nice fantasy... Most likely things will degrade slowly and there will be more and more violence to preserve an increasingly fragile statu quo. In the end, real wealth resides in the capacity to produce things or take it from someone else, and currency is just a representation of the trust people put in this capacity. The country with the strongest military might and/or the biggest means of production will not suffer as much economically as other countries. That's why America is frightening, all it has remaining now is its military-industrial complex, and it's unlikely the USA will accept their decline peacefully. All sane countries should request US Army bases on their territory to be shut down... The US already violate sovereignty rountinely with drones attack, what next?

Year of the Dog

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Re: China has announced a total of 8 trillion yuan stimulus
« Reply #7 on: August 27, 2012, 11:56:14 AM »
I hear this a lot about the USA that the government or the business owners don't have the ability or capacity to produce so it's a natural assumption that the USA will just attack other countries that have the natural resources that the USA will need to continue it's supremacy.   Comments like this are crap, yep crap.   If you don't think the US has the natural resources to sustain itself just look around, Google it, education yourself.   Or just take a drive through Wyoming, Eastern and Southern Utah, the Dakotas and Alaska.  How about the dozens of oil rigs that are abandoned in the Gulf. 

Does anybody consider the world wide economic disaster that would come if the US did stop buying things from overseas?  China, Vietnam and India just to name a few would be in a world of hurt.   

The US still has some of the best gold fields in the world.  Some of the best farmlands in the world.  But most importantly some of the most resilient, hardworking men and woman in the world.  Yes some people won't know what to do if the dooms day hits.  I would imagine that some interior designer in New York, that has never picked up a hammer or plucked a chicken, my be in for some hard times.  But that is a very poor representation of what the US is and who will be in charge if government and currency fails.

The idea that if money collapses means that the US would attack to sustain is ridiculous.  Opening tapped oil wells creating jobs and production right here is what will absolutely happen.  People assume that if disaster strikes that the same crappy government and same crappy policies will be in place.  Would you stand for that?

Dragondollar asked what's next.  In the name of World Peace and long term global stability I hope the US continues it's drone attacks.  Along with Israel to put rouge and dangerous terrorists acting as government in the deep hole they belong in.  Instability in the middle east is supposed to happen it's Biblical it's as old as time it's self.  But old wars with modern weapons is to risky to just ignore.   So what's next anything that makes this world a little safer to live in. 

Offline dragondollar

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Re: China has announced a total of 8 trillion yuan stimulus
« Reply #8 on: August 27, 2012, 12:12:33 PM »
The problem is the US has absolutely no legitimacy to meddle in middle-eastern affairs. Additionaly, randomly striking human beings down with an unmanned vehicle safely piloted 10000km away: this is the epitome of terror. Justifying it with the Bible is also not better than Islamist radicals commiting crimes by invoking the Koran.

The US can sustain themselves in autarcy indeed, if they choose to destroy their environment to gather the resources and pay the people doing these hard job 3rd world wages. It would probably be both more profitable and popular with the american people however to just maintain everyone's current lifestyle and continue plundering obscure middle eastern countries, these guys are terrorist anyway.

Offline Pandaguy

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Re: China has announced a total of 8 trillion yuan stimulus
« Reply #9 on: August 28, 2012, 04:37:04 AM »
I hear this a lot about the USA that the government or the business owners don't have the ability or capacity to produce so it's a natural assumption that the USA will just attack other countries that have the natural resources that the USA will need to continue it's supremacy.   Comments like this are crap, yep crap.   If you don't think the US has the natural resources to sustain itself just look around, Google it, education yourself.   Or just take a drive through Wyoming, Eastern and Southern Utah, the Dakotas and Alaska.  How about the dozens of oil rigs that are abandoned in the Gulf. 

Does anybody consider the world wide economic disaster that would come if the US did stop buying things from overseas?  China, Vietnam and India just to name a few would be in a world of hurt.   

The US still has some of the best gold fields in the world.  Some of the best farmlands in the world.  But most importantly some of the most resilient, hardworking men and woman in the world.  Yes some people won't know what to do if the dooms day hits.  I would imagine that some interior designer in New York, that has never picked up a hammer or plucked a chicken, my be in for some hard times.  But that is a very poor representation of what the US is and who will be in charge if government and currency fails.

The idea that if money collapses means that the US would attack to sustain is ridiculous.  Opening tapped oil wells creating jobs and production right here is what will absolutely happen.  People assume that if disaster strikes that the same crappy government and same crappy policies will be in place.  Would you stand for that?

Dragondollar asked what's next.  In the name of World Peace and long term global stability I hope the US continues it's drone attacks.  Along with Israel to put rouge and dangerous terrorists acting as government in the deep hole they belong in.  Instability in the middle east is supposed to happen it's Biblical it's as old as time it's self.  But old wars with modern weapons is to risky to just ignore.   So what's next anything that makes this world a little safer to live in. 

Very well said YOTD! You saved me a lot of writing. Thank you and kudos to you! America MUST remain pro-active and not reactive. Our technological superiority is second to none in this world! Most other countries/governments simply COPY and STEAL our technology. The USA maintains the most productive (not cheapest), and innovative workforce in the world. That is what maintains our might and high standard of living. It's all here folks! Possess high motivation and a few skills, and you will succeed.

Offline tjujoypop

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Re: China has announced a total of 8 trillion yuan stimulus
« Reply #10 on: August 28, 2012, 06:35:36 AM »
I didn't see this news in Chinese.
I don't believe it.

Offline pandaccumulator

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Re: China has announced a total of 8 trillion yuan stimulus
« Reply #11 on: August 28, 2012, 11:34:17 AM »
This news is too "premature".

Offline dragondollar

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Re: China has announced a total of 8 trillion yuan stimulus
« Reply #12 on: August 29, 2012, 12:19:13 AM »
Pandaguy & Year of the Dog: an intelligent article about the current state of affairs in America.
http://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/revolt-of-the-rich/

Year of the Dog

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Re: China has announced a total of 8 trillion yuan stimulus
« Reply #13 on: August 29, 2012, 02:43:10 PM »
I'm not disagreeing with you Dragondollar.   I am not happy with the current state of the US and it's government. 

But if things decline to the point of no return and currency and government fail.  The US won't go on the attack.  That is a unintelligent and ridiculous thought.  Farmland and oil would be the only reason any country would do that.  The US has both and lots of it. 

Do you believe all Americans are lazy, ignorant and incapable of change?   These aren't the people I know.  The people I know are ready and hopeful for a major change. They want to see more focus on domestic improvements and less on Middle Eastern affairs. 

There is a huge difference in stating that violence in the Middle East is Biblical and a terrorist invoking the Koran.  Fighting and hatred in the Middle East is a war for Holy Lands.  Only a brain washed psycho would believe their god would condone or even bless the extreme and radical acts of terrorism against unarmed civilians in the name of God and the Koran. 
 

Offline pandamonium

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Re: China has announced a total of 8 trillion yuan stimulus
« Reply #14 on: August 29, 2012, 03:39:49 PM »
Not many are happy w/ current state of affairs.  The way all countries are printing their own paper money is beyond stupid.  Too much paper means collapse of value so it is worthless.  Maybe this will hamstring the militaries?  How do you pay the troops, fill up the gas cans, etc w/ worthless paper?  If you cannot finance the military then how do you go to war?  The priority will be to take care of your own country.  Hope our current system is OK for another year or two........

Offline dragondollar

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Re: China has announced a total of 8 trillion yuan stimulus
« Reply #15 on: August 29, 2012, 07:09:13 PM »
Oh, my point was that the US currency and government won't fail any time soon.

And with regard to wars, they are simply hugely profitable while having the convenient side effect of getting rid of bothersome demographics, like unemployed young males or starry eyed patriots. See "war on drugs" for some other kind of hugely profitable endeavour which coincidentally get rid of similarly annoying demographics. In both "wars", America get the profits and quell domestic social unrest, while Mexico, Iraq or whatever "failed/rogue state" of the year gets the pain.

Offline badon

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Re: China has announced a total of 8 trillion yuan stimulus
« Reply #16 on: August 29, 2012, 07:32:54 PM »
My standard introduction when walking into a room full of people watching American TV is to ask "So, who are we supposed to hate today?"

Year of the Dog

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Re: China has announced a total of 8 trillion yuan stimulus
« Reply #17 on: August 29, 2012, 08:03:11 PM »
Oh, my point was that the US currency and government won't fail any time soon.

And with regard to wars, they are simply hugely profitable while having the convenient side effect of getting rid of bothersome demographics, like unemployed young males or starry eyed patriots. See "war on drugs" for some other kind of hugely profitable endeavour which coincidentally get rid of similarly annoying demographics. In both "wars", America get the profits and quell domestic social unrest, while Mexico, Iraq or whatever "failed/rogue state" of the year gets the pain.

WOW...... Unemployment is helped by war.......HUH
How?  I guess dead soldiers don't compete for quality jobs.
I have watched the unemployment rate continue to climb for most of my adult life.

"War on Drugs"  "War on Terrorism"  "War on Obesity"
These are campaign slogans and nothing much more than that.

I stand by my point that if the US would stop providing welfare to the rest of the world the US citizens would thrive.  But when old wars are fought with modern weapons that can devastate innocent people I understand why and hope that the US continues to provide a shield between right and wrong, good and evil.
  

Offline dragondollar

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Re: China has announced a total of 8 trillion yuan stimulus
« Reply #18 on: August 29, 2012, 08:27:25 PM »
Unemployment makes people desperate. Enlisting start looking attractive to desperate people. Soldiers are more profitable than what they cost, contrary to an unemployed person who costs entitlements that will go directly to Nissin or 7/11. War profits are not only in the form of lavish reconstruction/oil deals in the Evil Country of the Year, but also by injecting money in all the supporting industry back home. War has always been good for employment and generally keeping troublesome young people busy.

War on drugs is designed to take care of another kind of people, those who decide that they are fucked anyway and only hindering themselves by playing by the book (sellers) and those apathetic ones simply smoking the misery away (buyers). Prisonners makes for insanely cheap labour, and well, they cannot quit. Lots of money reinjected through huge supporting industry as well. And please, this "War" is very real for Mexico... You should lookup stuff like http://www.blogdelnarco.com/ sometimes.

If the US could leave us evil people alone and keep its "welfare" to itself I for one would be very pleased!

Year of the Dog

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Re: China has announced a total of 8 trillion yuan stimulus
« Reply #19 on: August 29, 2012, 08:45:13 PM »
If the US could leave us evil people alone and keep its "welfare" to itself I for one would be very pleased!

Maybe WE could and WE would if those damn drug cartels weren't sitting in Mexico and the South Pacific.

Sorry I don't ready crazy bias blog sites.  But I do sit at my office and fund people everyday so they can purchase a car.  The US isn't full of fat lazy people hoping that they will all get a chunk of the Iraq oil jackpot.  It's full of people that can't afford to live the quality of life they did 10 years ago.  Good People that can't afford a home because they got so upside down in the one they had foreclosed on.  It's full of people that can't finance a TIC-TAC right now.  If war is good for the economy then somebody has sure been pulling a fast one on me for the last 10 years.

Oh by the way enlisting is down over the last decade.  The US military service just recently loosened the requirements of enlisted soldiers, airman, seaman and marines to allow for more ex-convicts to join.  This is a result of 2 issues.  1 to make it easier for ex-convicts to find work in a horrible job market.  2 to try to keep up with the recruits that are needed in our nations military.  

Dragondollar........Why do you hate America?

Offline dragondollar

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Re: China has announced a total of 8 trillion yuan stimulus
« Reply #20 on: August 29, 2012, 09:13:20 PM »
Well, if you read back this thread, you will see that my comments do not include any words like "lazy", "fat", or any other kind of derogatory language actually.

People are people are people. I don't care if they are Americans, Chinese or Iraqi. We are all in together anyway. What is of interest to me is politics, and american politics especially are fascinating/frightening.

My point here anyway is that those wishing for hyperinflation are likely to be as disappointed as Harold Camping followers.

I would like to finish by pointing out that even I, a now officially sanctionned America-Hater™, would not wish Mad Max living conditions for any of your fellow countrymen, including the aforementioned fictional "Manhattan interior decorator" and "chicken plucker".

Ah, and one of my secondary points is that indeed "somebody" is pulling a fast one on the american people at large. Not that anyone can do anything about it at that point.

Offline badon

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Re: China has announced a total of 8 trillion yuan stimulus
« Reply #21 on: August 29, 2012, 10:20:10 PM »
I think you are both right in different ways. One thing I would like to add to the discussion is that welfare by itself is not bad. In fact, it's not even a terribly large burden on the national economies in the Western countries. It is in everyone's best interest to ensure people do not become desperate.

In particular, welfare programs that focus on injured workers are incredibly important to ensure a fearless and eager workforce is always available and able to do the work nobody else wants to do. If you have a dangerous job (like bus driver), you can focus on your job, and you won't say no to your boss if you know you will be taken care of if you get hurt.

With that said, welfare programs in the USA are extremely sick, and they're actually being used to divide and conquer the population of the USA. The danger of poverty is what used to keep women married and in stable families. Now, not only do they get everything the American men produce in alimony payments, they also get increased benefits for the more children they have outside of marriage.

The people designing these programs aren't stupid, they know exactly what they're doing. A nation's strength starts and ends in the families. Divide and conquer...

Offline dragondollar

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Re: China has announced a total of 8 trillion yuan stimulus
« Reply #22 on: August 29, 2012, 10:31:51 PM »
Yep, however I think the word "welfare" in the original comment of Year of the Dog did not refer to this, but more of a "Team America - World Police" thing, hence my slightly sarcastic comment.

I agree with you on welfare programmes in general - they are necessary to a healthy society.

Year of the Dog

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Re: China has announced a total of 8 trillion yuan stimulus
« Reply #23 on: August 29, 2012, 10:42:08 PM »
HAHA......  

TEAM AMERICA WORLD POLICE (Start the hardcore theme song NOW)

Not at all.  My original frustration was the Idea that if and or when the world currencies fail the United States would turn into 16th century Conquistadores.   Running around knocking out inferior countries.  

Kazakhstan will go down first for it's Potassium.   (If your don't get it don't worry about it)  


As it was said earlier war is expensive and if the US doesn't have any money then investing in rebuilding America makes far more sense.  Protecting America may become priority number 2.   But invading other countries for their natural resources that we don't need?   Huh



Offline SANDAC

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Re: China has announced a total of 8 trillion yuan stimulus
« Reply #24 on: August 29, 2012, 10:52:23 PM »
Yes, war is expensive.  $800 billions spent on Iraq for 2.4 million barrel of oil per day is pricy.  It is just too expensive to invade another country.  And let's be brutally frank:  There are not too many countries nicer than the USA to justify an invasion.

Offline dragondollar

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Re: China has announced a total of 8 trillion yuan stimulus
« Reply #25 on: August 29, 2012, 11:48:25 PM »
Sure, it is costly on the country balance sheet, but these billions are basically rerouted to corporate pockets, not disappearing into thin air.

As for "justified" invasion wars...

Since 2001, the US waged 2 open invasion wars, and is doing stuff in Pakistan, Yemen and the Horn of Africa which could be called war.

Here is a list of the other nation states that were involved in *invasion* war (civil war is another thing entirely), in the 2001-2012 timeframe:
- Russia/Ossetia/Georgia/Caucasus emirate
- Djibouti/Eritrea
- South Sudan/Sudan

To get back to the main topic, hyperinflation will not happen in the US, inflation is already compensated/transferred to other countries either by trade or by force. However, this already cause your middle class being gutted, while corporations are more prosperous than ever. Basically what Year of the Dog is observing in his office. That's why this hope for hyperinflation irks me, this hope for a sudden "the last will be first" thing. This is a time where the middle class should organize and help each others. This surely would be more pragmatic than waiting for a collapse.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2012, 12:23:01 AM by dragondollar »

Offline SANDAC

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Re: China has announced a total of 8 trillion yuan stimulus
« Reply #26 on: August 30, 2012, 12:20:56 AM »
Real bullets and equipments are expended in war.  There are also the misallocation of resources, both manpower and capitals, to foreign countries.  Yes, war costs real money.  There are some profits, but that pale in comparison to the real cost.

Look at it in another way:  One could argue that natural disasters are good for a nation because they stimulate the construction business.  If that's true, then the poor country of Haiti should be very wealthy because that island nation is savaged by hurricanes every year.

If USA really want to invade for resources, we can easily go south toward Mexico and the resource rich South America.

Offline dragondollar

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Re: China has announced a total of 8 trillion yuan stimulus
« Reply #27 on: August 30, 2012, 12:45:21 AM »
These war expenditures are borne by the country, not the corporations. Invading for resources is a naive concept. You invade and put the bill on the country balance sheet, your corporate friends pocket handsome profits and convert it in real assets and more profits. Poor and middle class find it incomprehensibly more and more difficult to access to these real assets, but there is lot of profitable ways to keep them busy. The cheap dollars are always bought because the rest of the world still needs to use them. Your dominance over oil trade, the fact that shares in your very profitable corporations are traded in USD and that no other nation can fuck with you is all very enticing. Each printed dollar turned into foreign currency is basically inflation transferred (see the 2009 real estate bubble in China). So, this is all very oversimplifying, but if you get any additional natural resources out the wars, consider that an added bonus.

Offline badon

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Re: China has announced a total of 8 trillion yuan stimulus
« Reply #28 on: August 30, 2012, 02:38:40 AM »
That's why this hope for hyperinflation irks me, this hope for a sudden "the last will be first" thing. This is a time where the middle class should organize and help each others. This surely would be more pragmatic than waiting for a collapse.

True! Survivalists sometimes fall into that trap. Some of them are wealthy and successful, but the majority are no more than average, or below average. They hope to gain an advantage simply by being prepared for catastrophe. That's pretty wise, and it does happen sometimes, but unfortunately, it rarely goes as they envision it. The survivors with some sort of wealth squirrelled away usually get robbed by military forces foraging for supplies. You can't say no to an army.

Look at it in another way:  One could argue that natural disasters are good for a nation because they stimulate the construction business.  If that's true, then the poor country of Haiti should be very wealthy because that island nation is savaged by hurricanes every year.

https://www.google.com/search?q=broken+window+fallacy

Underbidder

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Re: China has announced a total of 8 trillion yuan stimulus
« Reply #29 on: August 30, 2012, 02:47:09 AM »
True! Survivalists sometimes fall into that trap. Some of them are wealthy and successful, but the majority are no more than average, or below average. They hope to gain an advantage simply by being prepared for catastrophe. That's pretty wise, and it does happen sometimes, but unfortunately, it rarely goes as they envision it. The survivors with some sort of wealth squirrelled away usually get robbed by military forces foraging for supplies. You can't say no to an army.

https://www.google.com/search?q=broken+window+fallacy

No, you just have to be more clever than an army.  

Not too hard to do, actually.

Consider the makeup of an "army"

You don't think you cant out-think an "army"? Really?   :001_huh:











« Last Edit: August 30, 2012, 02:56:10 AM by Underbidder »