Author Topic: The mystery of bread token from old Shanghai (1895-1925)  (Read 38527 times)

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Offline KONDi

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Re: The mystery of bread token from old Shanghai (1895-1925)
« Reply #15 on: January 28, 2013, 09:34:48 AM »
I also would like to share with all of you this piece of information which I found here about Hall & Holtz Ltd bread tokens:

http://blog.sina.com.cn/s/blog_6b1cdb5a0100txpz.html
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Offline KONDi

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Re: The mystery of bread token from old Shanghai (1895-1925)
« Reply #16 on: January 28, 2013, 10:47:51 PM »
Dear all,

Today I took a closer look on my 2 pieces of One loaf and Half loaf Hall & Holtz Ltd bread tokens. It seems that except a denomination: one piece is one loaf and the other is half loaf, there is no difference. Well, let me tell you something---there are few differences in a style of writing chinese characters on reverse. Of course, there is also difference in a size of "N" counterstamp. One one loaf the "N" counterstamp is bigger and on half loaf the "N" counterstamp is smaller (sometimes we can find half loaf with bigger counterstamp, which normally we can see on one loaf pieces). However let's focus on our chinese characters, shall we?:)

Let's analize those character on reverse of each (one load and half laof) bread token. As you can see. The shape of each characters is different. Some of them are connected, some of them are not. Some of them are sharper, some of them are blunt.
There are also some characters which are bold and also convex. The other chinese character you can judge by yourself by looking on my 4 photos with analysis of each chinese character on each bread token----Enjoy as always!:)
KONDi
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Offline KONDi

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Re: The mystery of bread token from old Shanghai (1895-1925)
« Reply #17 on: January 28, 2013, 11:27:03 PM »
Except different style of writing Chinese character on one and half loaf, there is also other variety about location of "N" counterstamp on one and half loaf pieces.

The normal location of "N" should be above the word "SHANGHAI" on obverse of this bread token. However there are also pieces which location of "N" is below the word "Hall & Holtz LTD", which shows this example with ONE LOAF (picture: 5767a). That's not everything. Some pieces of one and half loaf bread tokens (mostly those are half loaf tokens) have rotated "N" counterstamp (upside down "N") below the word "Hall & Holtz LTD" (picture: 5770a). Those pieces are more rare.

Wait! That's not all:) There are also piece like this half loaf (picture: 5768a) which are not even punched. These are much more rare! Some pieces, mostly one loaf pieces were repunched with square hole and rotated with "N" counterstamp parallel in the same direction. You can notice that on my own one loaf piece. I suspect that rotated repunched square hole and rotated "N" counterstamp went together. I mean the machine which they were using in 1925 to repunched those bread tokens from 1895---repunched the square hole and at the same time made "N" counterstamp. However I am not sure about it, that's my speculation only.

Some pieces have some number some number like 3909 or 3996. It could refer to some storage, but I am not sure about it either.

On the end I would like to show you the photo which I found on the Internet. I think this piece is the most beautiful error half loaf bread token from Hall & Holtz LTD---the token not only wasn't punched but also has chinese characters and English letters on both sides----that's my beauty:)

In old Shanghai there was more bakeries, but Hall & Holtz Ltd was the first western bakery in old Shanghai. Below you can see the other bread token from old Shanghai which I found on the Internet and would like to share with your guys. It is H. Evans & Co. 1 loaf bread token. However I love more the design of Hall & Holtz Ltd bread token---those made of copper-nickel with beautiful English design and chinese characters on reverse:)

ENJOY IT!:)
KONDi
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Offline KONDi

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Re: The mystery of bread token from old Shanghai (1895-1925)
« Reply #18 on: January 31, 2013, 10:05:58 AM »
Dear all,

Last night I found some literature, which mention about Hall & Holtz Ltd company:

Chinese Dress: From the Qing Dynasty to the Present
By Valery Garrett
p. 144, Chapter 5, Figure 286 (A picture)

Asian Department Stores
By Kerrie L. MacPherson
p. 4 (B picture)

Shanghai Love: Courtesans, Intellectuals, and Entertainment Culture, 1850-1910
By Catherine Vance Yeh
p. 44 (C picture)

Changing Clothes in China: Fashion, History, Nation
By Antonia Finnane
p. 134 (D picture)

The City in Southeast Asia: Patterns, Processes and Policy
By Peter James Rimmer, Howard W. Dick
p. 164 (E picture)

The Sing-Song Girls of Shanghai
By Bangqing Han, Ailing Zhang, Eva Hung
p. 315 (F picture)

China monthly review - Volume 81 - Page 32
The history of Shanghai - Page 471
Hall died in 1886, while Holtz returned to Shanghai as late as 1889

China Monthly Review, Volume 81
A profit of $10,054.31 was made during 1936, against the loss of S17,243.71 in 1935, by Hall and Holtz, Ltd., British department store in Shanghai, according to the annual report made by Eric Moller...
KONDi
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Offline KONDi

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Re: The mystery of bread token from old Shanghai (1895-1925)
« Reply #20 on: January 31, 2013, 10:44:40 AM »
"...Some pieces of one and half loaf bread tokens (mostly those are half loaf tokens) have rotated "N" counterstamp..."

Here is an example of One loaf with rotated "N". The rotation goes parallel with repunched square whole, which might assumes that repunched square hole and "N" counterstamp was made by the same machine.

Below you can also see H.Evans & Co. It is a copper token for four loaves. You can find a photo of this token in a book from 2005: The chips and coupons in old Shanghai.

This bakery (H.Evans & Co) was established by Englishman Henry Evans in 1858 and acquired by Hall & Holtz Ltd. in 1886.
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Re: The mystery of bread token from old Shanghai (1895-1925)
« Reply #21 on: February 06, 2013, 09:12:57 AM »
Dear coin/token collectors and dealers,

I found some reference English book:
"The Coins of The British Commonwealth of Nations to the end of the reign of George VI 1952" Part 2 Asian Territories 1965 by F.Pridmore

p.323, 324 and 325 Pridmore mention about Hall & Holtz Ltd and H.Evans & Co. Those 2 companies and also others were issuing bread tokens.
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Re: The mystery of bread token from old Shanghai (1895-1925)
« Reply #22 on: February 06, 2013, 09:44:15 AM »
"Recently, I discovered also something very interesting.
I found on half loaf with round hole from 1895 number 3909 and on one loaf with square hole and "N" counterstamp there is number 3996. I believe it was made by the same person. But I have no idea what those number chopmarks could mean. Perhaps it could mean some store place in old Shanghai. I am wondering, did those 2 number chopmarks did this company or some other person. I think it will be very hard or impossible to find out. But who knows. What is your opinion about those 2 numbers?"


I will answer my own question...

According to Pridmore p.324-----See photo: "Pridmore p.324"
Woodward on p.13-----See photo: "2-Woodward p.13"

See picture with HALF LOAF + number and ONE LOAF "N" + number (Woodward added on the end p.13---"Very few pieces of the Neil issue had cyphers impressed")
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Re: The mystery of bread token from old Shanghai (1895-1925)
« Reply #23 on: February 06, 2013, 09:48:35 AM »
By the way, about H.Evans & Co and Hall & Holtz Ltd tokens also T.Woodward in his book "The coins of Shanghai" on p.12-13
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Re: The mystery of bread token from old Shanghai (1895-1925)
« Reply #24 on: February 06, 2013, 09:52:05 AM »
1 loaf and 4 loaves bread tokens from H.Evans & Co also mention this chinese book: "The chips and coupons in old Shanghai" 2005, which is more like a catalog but illustrated in beautiful way.

Recently one of my Chinese friend bought in Japan 1 loaf token with punched square hole (please take a look)
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Re: The mystery of bread token from old Shanghai (1895-1925)
« Reply #25 on: February 06, 2013, 10:00:58 AM »
...so how old are these Hall & Holtz Ltd bread tokens??

Well, the answer is not so clear as we think...Pridmore says in his book on p.324 that: "The tokens were struck in England about 1895-1900..."
Woodward interviewed a manager on 1929.01.29 and he told him that they were issued 30-35 years ago---See photo: "Woodward p.13", which would means that 1929 - 30/35 they were issued 1899 or 1894 N8.

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Re: The mystery of bread token from old Shanghai (1895-1925)
« Reply #26 on: February 07, 2013, 02:39:51 AM »
...error Half loaf bread token of Hall & Holtz Ltd made of copper:

1) sold at Baldwin's Auctions Ltd in 2009
http://www.mcsearch.info/record.html?id=193995

2) sold once again this time at Ponterio & Associates in 2011
http://www.mcsearch.info/search.html?search=similar%3A382528#3

3)...maybe it will show on this year auction somewhere:)

First I saw this piece at Ponterio & Associates that was sold in 2011. I was sure it was made of copper-nickel. Since all Half and One loaf Hall & Holtz Ltd bread tokens which has such of design are made of copper-nickel, but this error Half loaf is made of copper. It seems that picture taken under different angle give totally different impression :001_rolleyes:.
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Re: The mystery of bread token from old Shanghai (1895-1925)
« Reply #27 on: February 17, 2013, 03:28:28 AM »
Dear all,

I found new interesting information about Hall & Holtz Ltd. and I would like to share with everyone. Enjoy as always!:)

source:
http://archive.org/stream/cu31924023217825/cu31924023217825_djvu.txt

European Stores

Hall & Holtz (" Fuh-Lee "), 14, Nanking Road, provision merchants, bakers, tailors and outfitters, furnishers, drapers, and milliners.

.....................................................
"Who's who---An Alphabetical list of Foreign residents and Hong employees in Shanghai, and outports. 1904."
[Where the Name of the place is omitted, Shanghai will be understood.

List of Hall & Holtz Ltd. staff from 1904:

1)Allen, I.W. (photo: "employee1")
2) Borioni, F.H. (H & H Ltd., Tientsin---look on picture: "Tientsin H & & Ltd".)
3) Bowness, S.
4) Burgess, J.C.
5) Copper, W.
6) Cruse, A.S.
7) Fursman, W.C.
8) Gosling, A.C.N.
9) Hickmott, A.G.
10) Hill, A.
11) Hutchinson, W.
12) Jones, B.F.
13) Lee, A.W.
14) Munro, Jas.
15) Nunes, J.S.S.
16) Palmer, E.R.
17) Quick, Jno.C.
18) Rangel, I.M.
19) Remedios, S.B.dos (sounds like Spanish surname or Mexican surname)
20) Rickard, R.A.
21) Rooda, A.
22) Spenceley, C.A. (H & H Ltd., Hankow---look on picture: "Hankow H & & Ltd".)
23) Stewart, F.W. (H & H Ltd., Hankow---look on picture: "Hankow H & & Ltd".)
24) Tompson, W.W.
25) Tuck, E.
26) Vine, W.J.
27) Wilson, J.
28) Wrentmore, S.G. (H & H Ltd., Tientsin---look on picture: "Tientsin H & & Ltd".)
29) Ward, S.H. (H & H Ltd., Tientsin---look on picture: "Tientsin H & & Ltd".)

I was also able to find in this article what happened with Hall & Holtz Ltd. before the communist take over the country (in attachment). I think it is article: "Department stores in early 20th century Shanghai embeddness of clan structure in the business environment" but Brenda Sternquist and Yan Ma from Michigan State University p.342-343 (picture: "H and H Ltd_1" and "H and H Ltd_2").

Finally, I was able to find what happened later with Hall & Holtz Ltd. from remains of information on this web page:
http://en.hkcomp.info/hongkong/cps.jsp?key=2106-158a46fc
Hall & Holtz Ltd. moved to Hongkong, which showed registration date: 22nd August 1946, which is also the date of establishment. The company nr was: 0002109. The dissolve date is 20th September 1996. So H & H Ltd. was still in business until 1996 (for 50 years in Hongkong). So what really happened in 1996?

...
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Offline KONDi

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Re: The mystery of bread token from old Shanghai (1895-1925)
« Reply #28 on: February 17, 2013, 03:30:49 AM »
the rest employees (2)...
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Re: The mystery of bread token from old Shanghai (1895-1925)
« Reply #29 on: February 17, 2013, 03:32:13 AM »
the rest employees (3)...
KONDi
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