Topic: Should I crossover PCGS to NGC, or not?

[Birdman]

This a question more than one of us may have pondered.  I am about to send in a batch of coins to NGC and I'm trying to make a decision on whether to submit a few of my PCGS graded coins for crossover consideration.  The majority of my collection is NGC, so there is an argument for uniformity.  Also, I've heard that (at the moment, at least) NGC sells at a premium to PCGS, so having them in NGC may make them easier to sell in the future. 

Just when I think I've made the decision in my mind to send my PCGS in to cross over, I see that a PCGS 1998 G5Y MS69 just sold for $1948.  http://www.ebay.com/itm/1998-5Y-China-Gold-Panda-1-20-oz-Small-Date-PCGS-MS69-/191130659163?pt=US_World_Coins&hash=item2c8046695b  That seems like a strong price.  Do you think that price is owing to a short supply of the coin, or do you think there was a premium associated with the PCGS Secure holder, or a combination?

[Russ 736]

My vote would be the scarcity of the coin and not much, if anything due to the PCGS slab. On the subject of NGC crossing over PCGS: I have personally sent in over 30 coins and medals to NGC for cross over. These were all MS and PF 69s ( and recently 70s ). I requested that they cross over at the same grade that PCGS had given them. For you numbers guys on the forum, the cross over success rate was 0%. These coins were submitted over a three year span ( starting right after NGC kicked PCGS coins out of their registry sets) until recently when NGC decided to let us " TRY " and cross over PCGS 70s. It doesn't seem to be a big money maker for NGC because if the coin fails to cross then they only charge you $5. That doesn't count the time and effort to package, shipping costs both ways and insurance on the shipment. If you are guessing that this is a pet peeve of mine, you are right. I cannot believe that PCGS graders are so incompetent that they over graded 30 random coins that graded over a several year period. I know very little about the grading staffs at NGC or PCGS but I would bet that they have traded graders back and forth on more than one occasion. I would love to hear from other members on their success rate on getting NGC to cross over PCGS for them. Maybe it's just me and I have been black balled by NGC graders. I have been accused of being paranoid in the past. My only real fear is that I am not paranoid enough:)

Russ

[comeaux]

Good post Russ … I don’t think you are being black balled but rather NGC is snubbing PCGS as it’s the only logical conclusion.

I have only submitted approximately 5 PCGS MS69 coins to NGC for crossover and none were crossed over. 

[Russ 736]

Thanks Comeaux,
                         I agree with your assessment. I'm not important enough to be singled out so I assumed that everyone was getting the same results. It seems kind of petty to me and as a regular client of NGC, it makes me displeased with the organization. I have bought some PCGS certified coins and cracked them out. The results are about 85% of them get the same grade by NGC so the graders of both groups seem to agree. I have not gotten a higher grade from NGC, however.

Russ

[Contrapunctus]

I won't be surprised to see 0% success rate for crossover at the same grade. It's more of rivalry than competency.

Would you agree with your rival's opinion or grading? Will you grade it lower to make your rival look bad? This crossover service should already ring alarm bells.

NGC slabs might be rumoured to have premium (I don't know how true is this) but once you get cross-graded lower, you lose out in terms of lower grade and that cancels out whatever premium that might be gained.

For me, when I bought graded coins, I don't ever send it for re-grading. Not even PCGS slabs back to PCGS themselves for reconsideration.

[dennisma77]

FYI. I submitted 5 PCGS 69 coins to NGC recently and 3 of them crossed over. Two years ago I cracked PCGS 68 coin and NGC grade it as 67.

[jc888888888]

Ngc is tough on crossover :) I have only had one out of 9 tries go successful ,as far as a 70 coin crossing pcgs to ngc ,you have a better chance winning the powerball lottery :) , I will tell you I took three of the 8 crossover failures  that where ms69 pcgs gold coins ( I felt these where solid 69,s), cracked them out sent them back to NGC and guess what  all came back 69................   

[Russ 736]

I completely agree, JC888-
Your experiences with NGC crossovers is exactly what I have seen when I have tried it. The 70s crossover rates right up there with catching a Bigfoot or Yeti.

Russ

[Birdman]

Here are some anecdotes:

Several years ago I submitted a batch of 20 PCGS of a better date G1/20 that had came from a single sheet.  I sent them through NCS first and I think about 17 crossed to NGC MS69 and 3 fell down to NGC 68.  Although the crossover rate was ok, I'm not sure it was worth the money.  But, it was cheaper for G1/20 back then, and I think I took advantage of some sort of grading special.  Also, there was a miscommunication, because if the coins wouldn't cross, I didn't want them taken out of PCGS 69 and put into NGC 68, but it was part of a few groups of coins that I sent in, so I think the clerk got confused.

I've sent some stray G1/2 in for crossover.  I'd say perhaps 6 of 10 crossed PCGS 69 to NGC 69.  Perhaps 3 of 10 did not cross.  And then the surprise.  I sent one G1/2 in that was a PCGS MS69 and it came back a NGC MS70! I've attached the PCGS file image.  The PCGS file photo has a noticeable red spot (which kept it no higher than a 69), but otherwise had a nice forehead.  Since I sent it through NCS first, the spot was eliminated, and I guess the NGC graders then liked what they saw.

Overall, if I had not sent the majority of these coins through NCS first, I'm certain that the cross over rate would be lower.  Also, I was somewhat selective in what I sent in.  I screened the coins and decided some PCGS 69s were not in good enough condition to try.  As time goes by, and there has been a preference for NGC for years, I would guess that many of the PCGS graded coins that are still on the market (that aren't in brand new holders) have already had someone look at them to see if they would cross over.  I pretty much assume that if it is an older PCGS holder on eBay it probably isn't in good enough condition to have a good chance of crossing over.  Otherwise, someone would have tried already.  Something to keep in mind.

Take home message:  If I saw an otherwise lovely PCGS 68 or PCGS 69 that has red spots that are present in the PCGS file photo (so they were there at the time of grading), I would not hesitate to send them through NCS and then to NGC grading.  From what I heard, however, I wouldn't try crossing over PCGS 70 to NGC 70.  Although I'm not sure I've ever bought a PCGS 70.

[pandaccumulator]

Thanks for sharing your experience, Birdman.

Question: if your crossover your PCGS69 through NCS/NGC, can you still ask NGC a minimal grade, say 69, below which they would return coins in PCGS69 holders? My understanding is: if you go through NCS, then the coin has be cracked out of PCGS holder, after NCS "conservation", then go through regular grading, in which case you could get any grades. How does this work?

[Birdman]

Thanks for sharing your experience, Birdman.

Question: if your crossover your PCGS69 through NCS/NGC, can you still ask NGC a minimal grade, say 69, below which they would return coins in PCGS69 holders? My understanding is: if you go through NCS, then the coin has be cracked out of PCGS holder, after NCS "conservation", then go through regular grading, in which case you could get any grades. How does this work?

I don't submit enough to remember the details, so perhaps someone else could comment, or better yet you could call NGC for clarification.  My recollection is that you can specify a minimum grade and they will give you an opinion before they crack things out.  I think they called me on one particular coin and double checked if I wanted to go forward, because there wasn't a certainty that it would meet the grade.  Whatever you do, I would be certain to clearly communicate and/or simplify your order, as the clerks can sometimes get confused if you have a complex submission.

[pandaccumulator]

I don't submit enough to remember the details, so perhaps someone else could comment, or better yet you could call NGC for clarification.  My recollection is that you can specify a minimum grade and they will give you an opinion before they crack things out.  I think they called me on one particular coin and double checked if I wanted to go forward, because there wasn't a certainty that it would meet the grade.  Whatever you do, I would be certain to clearly communicate and/or simplify your order, as the clerks can sometimes get confused if you have a complex submission.

Very good advice! I did NGC crossover on PCGS coins only once. All five PCGS were 69s, I got 4/5 crossovered to NGC69, including a 83 8grm pig, but not as "lucky" as you were(no 70s  ).

[jc888888888]

THE NCS avenue to cross might be an angle to explore, I would hate to think you need to spend more money to get a better result..or are they justifying a legitimate look at the coin since they feel NCS will improve it?

[KeepOnTrying!]

I have thought about crossing over some PCGS coins to NGC slabs for the purpose of building a registry set but I don't know if the hassle is worth it. I am enclosing my PCGS slabs (as well as NGC slabs) in one or more archival bags (in addition to other empirical/commonsense measures) to help prevent/retard coin surface deterioration.

[KeyDate1/2ozPandas]

If you send a PCGS slab to NCS, there is no grade guaranty, the minimum grade only applies to NGC slabs sent to NCS.