Author Topic: Huang Ruiyong's medal ranking list  (Read 11619 times)

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Offline fwang2450

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Huang Ruiyong's medal ranking list
« on: October 14, 2012, 02:12:06 PM »
I am posting the translations of Huang Ruiyong (Olive)'s medal star list. I sent it to a few members already, but I believe by posting it more members will benefit.

Underbidder

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Re: Huang Ruiyong's medal ranking list
« Reply #1 on: October 14, 2012, 03:27:50 PM »
WOW.


Shocking how far down the list the Pagoda medals are!


Under the Hong Kong Expo Medals from 1984, 1985, 1986.
Even under 5 oz Vault Protector from 1987.

And same ranking as 1990 Goldfish, and no mention of 1984 Goldfish by the way.  


Thank you Fwang.

Offline fwang2450

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Re: Huang Ruiyong's medal ranking list
« Reply #2 on: October 14, 2012, 05:56:54 PM »
WOW.


Shocking how far down the list the Pagoda medals are!


Under the Hong Kong Expo Medals from 1984, 1985, 1986.
Even under 5 oz Vault Protector from 1987.

And same ranking as 1990 Goldfish, and no mention of 1984 Goldfish by the way. 


Thank you Fwang.
You are welcome. Please note that Huang's ranking is based on the ten criteria he laid out in his book "Ode to Grace in An Properous Age" (my translation), which includes mintage, design/workmanship/new technique, awards received, theme, popularity (sedimentation), among others, rather than mintage only.

Offline pandamania

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Re: Huang Ruiyong's medal ranking list
« Reply #3 on: October 14, 2012, 06:10:13 PM »
Excellent information, thanks. How well received is Huang`s list in China?

Offline fwang2450

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Re: Huang Ruiyong's medal ranking list
« Reply #4 on: October 14, 2012, 06:25:17 PM »
Excellent information, thanks. How well received is Huang`s list in China?
It is widely received, as Huang is one of the few authorities on MCC. Besides, there is no other medal list to go by. Ge Zukang ranks some of the medals in his book, but not in such a convenient list form.

Offline pandaccumulator

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Re: Huang Ruiyong's medal ranking list
« Reply #5 on: October 14, 2012, 06:30:19 PM »
Thanks for the information,fwang. Do you have the star ranking of "coins" similar to the medal? I habe Mr Gee's book, I wonder if there is any differences between the two.

Offline fwang2450

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Re: Huang Ruiyong's medal ranking list
« Reply #6 on: October 14, 2012, 06:37:28 PM »
Thanks for the information,fwang. Do you have the star ranking of "coins" similar to the medal? I habe Mr Gee's book, I wonder if there is any differences between the two.
I believe this forum has his translated coin ranking list somewhere, but I do not have the link.

Offline pandamonium

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Re: Huang Ruiyong's medal ranking list
« Reply #7 on: October 14, 2012, 07:28:48 PM »
Hi Fwang:  We chatted about the silver medals earlier.   Many, if not the majority, of the silver medals I have not seen on ebay or in Mr. Ge's book.  81 World table tennis?  Is there a book that has photos of these medals?  Have any of them left China?   China must have a giganormous amount of medals.  As far as the silver medals I recognize the Great Wall makes sense as # 1.  The other familiar medals are the ANA, Munich, Expos, Pagodas, Goldfish and Gods of Longevity.  These medals are on ebay.  Basically all the silver medals on the list are the best to buy?  What this information is telling me is that most silver medals are not available and the best to buy for us in the US are the ANA, Munich, Expos, Pagodas, Goldfish and Gods.  Do you think this is a correct opinion?  Also the World market, excluding China, may have a different priority for silver medals.  Due to low mintage, such as the pagodas, the World market can easily buy up supply and raise price.  Is this correct?    thanks for the list..................

Offline Silverfever

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Re: Huang Ruiyong's medal ranking list
« Reply #8 on: October 14, 2012, 09:36:13 PM »
Its nice to see that the four blessings medal set is also on that list.

Available here.  :001_rolleyes:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/290776402798?ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1555.l2649

Offline fwang2450

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Re: Huang Ruiyong's medal ranking list
« Reply #9 on: October 14, 2012, 10:22:27 PM »
Hi Fwang:  We chatted about the silver medals earlier.   Many, if not the majority, of the silver medals I have not seen on ebay or in Mr. Ge's book.  81 World table tennis?  Is there a book that has photos of these medals?  Have any of them left China?   China must have a giganormous amount of medals.  As far as the silver medals I recognize the Great Wall makes sense as # 1.  The other familiar medals are the ANA, Munich, Expos, Pagodas, Goldfish and Gods of Longevity.  These medals are on ebay.  Basically all the silver medals on the list are the best to buy?  What this information is telling me is that most silver medals are not available and the best to buy for us in the US are the ANA, Munich, Expos, Pagodas, Goldfish and Gods.  Do you think this is a correct opinion?  Also the World market, excluding China, may have a different priority for silver medals.  Due to low mintage, such as the pagodas, the World market can easily buy up supply and raise price.  Is this correct?    thanks for the list..................
It is true that many of the rare medals have disappeared from the market, like many of the rare coins on his coin list. Such coins/medals may once in a while appear on auctions, and are generally bartered among top collectors. We can have a glimpse of them when the collector is nice enough to share, like the copper pattern of the 30th anniversary of PRC on Wang Zheng's microblog.

The earlier medals were issued to international markets, but like the rare coins, many of them have been shipped back to China.

There are illustrated catelogs of Chinese coins and medals in addition to Mr. Ge's book. The rare medals are listed in there. But these books are not as available as Mr. Ge's book on international markets.

I really do not want to get into another discussion of the future value of medals. Personally I have nothing against them. Huang also emphasizes that medals should be part of the collection of advanced collectors. The problem is that there is a large group of not so advanced Chinese collectors who exclude medals from their collection. That is why these medals with low mintage are still available on the international market. There may come a day when the Chinese collectors realize the value of medals, and so drive up  the price. I really do not know. What I have observed is that pricing on eBay actually follows the trend in China at a certain percentage (generally lower), except for a few like pagodas and gold fish.

Offline pandamonium

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Re: Huang Ruiyong's medal ranking list
« Reply #10 on: October 14, 2012, 11:59:27 PM »
I have more Chinese coins w/ yuan sign then medals.  But lately the 1980's large silver medal designs are more appealing.  The 3.3 oz God of Longevity is one that stands out as the design is unique.  Someday I hope to buy a graded 5 oz or 12 oz gold MCC.  Thats a good goal to reach for............

Offline fwang2450

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Re: Huang Ruiyong's medal ranking list
« Reply #11 on: October 15, 2012, 12:50:45 PM »
I received formal approval from Huang Ruiyong to post the translations. He mentioned he had updated ranking lists of MCC coins and medals. I will ask him for the latest versions and post translations here on CCF.

Offline NBM

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Re: Huang Ruiyong's medal ranking list
« Reply #12 on: October 15, 2012, 01:12:53 PM »
I received formal approval from Huang Ruiyong to post the translations. He mentioned he had updated ranking lists of MCC coins and medals. I will ask him for the latest versions and post translations here on CCF.
:thumbup:

Offline fwang2450

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Re: Huang Ruiyong's medal ranking list
« Reply #13 on: October 31, 2012, 08:34:06 PM »
Thanks for the information,fwang. Do you have the star ranking of "coins" similar to the medal? I habe Mr Gee's book, I wonder if there is any differences between the two.
I did some searching and the coin ranking list is here:

http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=5352.0

With these two lists, we are all set.

Offline mmissinglink

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Re: Huang Ruiyong's medal ranking list
« Reply #14 on: December 27, 2012, 06:41:27 PM »
Hi all,

I just discovered this thread and downloaded the Huang Ruiyong list.

Please do inform me if you know; under the "Silver Medals" section on the first line which notes, "1982 5oz Great Wall first version (mirror), 1987 5oz Great Wall second version"......is that description correct in terms of year and weight? Or is that item supposed to be the 1984 3.3 oz. medal and the 1985 3.3 oz medal that other members on other threads here have mentioned and posted pictures of (like in this thread: http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=4488.0 ?

It's quite confusing to me.

Offline mmissinglink

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Re: Huang Ruiyong's medal ranking list
« Reply #15 on: December 27, 2012, 06:53:06 PM »
The other thing that seems to be a mystery regarding the various rare Great Wall medals of the mid 1980's is that in some auction descriptions, the medal depicted here http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=4488.0;attach=8967 is described as "the first medal in Great Wall Series" ( http://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/10276783) but the medal depicted here:  http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=4488.0;attach=8963  is noted as Version 1.

Can anyone clarify these seemingly confusing differences?

Thanks in advance for the help.

Offline fwang2450

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Re: Huang Ruiyong's medal ranking list
« Reply #16 on: December 27, 2012, 07:57:59 PM »
Hi all,

I just discovered this thread and downloaded the Huang Ruiyong list.

Please do inform me if you know; under the "Silver Medals" section on the first line which notes, "1982 5oz Great Wall first version (mirror), 1987 5oz Great Wall second version"......is that description correct in terms of year and weight? Or is that item supposed to be the 1984 3.3 oz. medal and the 1985 3.3 oz medal that other members on other threads here have mentioned and posted pictures of (like in this thread: http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=4488.0 ?

It's quite confusing to me.

The weight was wrong in the list for download, which I corrected on my blog at http://modern-chinese-numismatic-info.blogspot.com/. The years should be right. There are different opinions on the years, though. Your medal should be the 1987 "correct" version.

Offline mmissinglink

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Re: Huang Ruiyong's medal ranking list
« Reply #17 on: December 27, 2012, 10:10:25 PM »
The weight was wrong in the list for download, which I corrected on my blog at http://modern-chinese-numismatic-info.blogspot.com/. The years should be right. There are different opinions on the years, though. Your medal should be the 1987 "correct" version.

Thank you for the link to your blog, fwang....I will read it soon. Wow, so the medal I shared may in fact be a 1987 medal? Are there knowledgeable people who actually know the specifics and actual true details about these mysterious 1980's Great Wall medals? Because right now, it seems there is so much confusion including auctions that are describing the medals without the inscription below the Great Wall on the obverse as being "1984". At the same time, other writings state that the variation I have (with the inscription of Chinese characters on the obverse) and the correct spelling on reverse is "version 1".

Is there any real authority on the specifics of these Great Wall medals? Is anyone compiling the research to get a definitive answer as to the year and versions and variations?

Afterall, it would seem that if Huang Ruiyong had chosen this medal as the very top of the category of all other silver MCC's then the MCC collector/investor community should clamour for real clarity on the Great Wall medals of the 1980's....yes?

Thank you for any insight on this you can share.

Offline mmissinglink

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Re: Huang Ruiyong's medal ranking list
« Reply #18 on: December 27, 2012, 10:27:49 PM »
Hi fwang,

I read through several pages of your blog posts including your article, "Star (Ranking) List of Modern Chinese Coins" and I was left more confused than ever because I did not see the "Great Wall" medal on this list as I did here in the first post in this forum thread. I also did not see mention of the "5 oz" description being a mistake that was corrected.

Thanks for helping me understand better.

Offline mmissinglink

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Re: Huang Ruiyong's medal ranking list
« Reply #19 on: December 27, 2012, 10:32:41 PM »
The other thing is that if these Great Wall medals are actually 1982 and 1987 (as opposed to 1984), then why are grading companies like NGC and PCGS grading them as "1984"? That makes no sense to me at all. If, for example, NGC has some MCC experts there, then shouldn't these folks have the latest and best information available and therefore wouldn't the "1984" description be the correct one?

Am I the only one who is so perplexed by the uncertainty of the details about these coveted medals?

Offline fwang2450

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Re: Huang Ruiyong's medal ranking list
« Reply #20 on: December 27, 2012, 10:39:58 PM »
Hi fwang,

I read through several pages of your blog posts including your article, "Star (Ranking) List of Modern Chinese Coins" and I was left more confused than ever because I did not see the "Great Wall" medal on this list as I did here in the first post in this forum thread. I also did not see mention of the "5 oz" description being a mistake that was corrected.

Thanks for helping me understand better.

Huang has two lists, one for coins, which you mentioned in your message, and the other for medals, which you should check, at this address: http://modern-chinese-numismatic-info.blogspot.com/2012/11/huang-ruiyong-olive-is-one-of-pioneers.html. Please note that in Chinese, coins with denomination are different from medals without denomination. That's why he provided two separate lists.

Offline fwang2450

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Re: Huang Ruiyong's medal ranking list
« Reply #21 on: December 27, 2012, 10:45:35 PM »
The other thing is that if these Great Wall medals are actually 1982 and 1987 (as opposed to 1984), then why are grading companies like NGC and PCGS grading them as "1984"? That makes no sense to me at all. If, for example, NGC has some MCC experts there, then shouldn't these folks have the latest and best information available and therefore wouldn't the "1984" description be the correct one?

Am I the only one who is so perplexed by the uncertainty of the details about these coveted medals?
You are not the only one. Many are. There are just too many stories about early MCCs. Each authority has their references, which might be right or wrong. As Huang said, sometimes you need to look into the production records at the mints and the records of distributors in addition to the official catalogs to determine the mintage or the year. The problem is that medals were not strictly controlled. When to restrike, how many, for whom, these are all difficult questions to answer. If you check the threads on pagoda and gold fish medals, you will see similar issues. NGC is pretty late to the Chinese market and they have a lot to learn.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2012, 10:47:51 PM by fwang2450 »

Offline mmissinglink

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Re: Huang Ruiyong's medal ranking list
« Reply #22 on: December 27, 2012, 10:59:58 PM »
You are not the only one. Many are. There are just too many stories about early MCCs. Each authority has their references, which might be right or wrong. As Huang said, sometimes you need to look into the production records at the mints and the records of distributors in addition to the official catalogs to determine the mintage or the year. The problem is that medals were not strictly controlled. When to restrike, how many, for whom, these are all difficult questions to answer. If you check the threads on pagoda and gold fish medals, you will see similar issues. NGC is pretty late to the Chinese market and they have a lot to learn.


Okay, that's good to know. Thank you.

So, would you recommend that if I purchase any MCC's that are not graded and I want them graded that PCGS is the better grading company to turn to? If not, which company is the best authority for grading MCCs?

Offline fwang2450

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Re: Huang Ruiyong's medal ranking list
« Reply #23 on: December 27, 2012, 11:43:34 PM »

Okay, that's good to know. Thank you.

So, would you recommend that if I purchase any MCC's that are not graded and I want them graded that PCGS is the better grading company to turn to? If not, which company is the best authority for grading MCCs?
For modern Chinese coins, NGC is a better choice. A lot more MCCs are graded by NGC than by PCGS. PCGS is more trusted for old Chinese coins.

Offline dobedo

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Re: Huang Ruiyong's medal ranking list
« Reply #24 on: December 28, 2012, 09:18:58 AM »
These coin/medal ranking lists remind me of the college ranking lists. The numeric ranks, rank and test scores, or stars seem to make them more objective than they really are, but some people like me are still suckers of those lists. Armed with these lists, all the sudden I am some sort of experts just like Huang or Ge or Frank ... or wannabe anyway.

Happy new year, and hopefully more new ranking lists! I can't wait.

Offline mmissinglink

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Re: Huang Ruiyong's medal ranking list
« Reply #25 on: December 28, 2012, 02:44:56 PM »
dobedo,

From what I can tell from doing some simple Google searches and reading in this forum, and I'm new to coin collecting, Huang Ruiyong is a respected scholar and bonafide expert in his field. Therefore, one would surmise that his lists are a result of his knowledge and expertise, not just some sort of haphazard guesses or emotional feelings. Is Huang Ruiyong partial to one particular coin/medal simply because he owns many of that particular coin/medal as you seem to be suggesting? I doubt it very much....just look at how diverse his lists are....do you think he owns all of these items in plenty?

As for me, I would and will never even joke about being an expert just because I can read someone like Huang Ruiyong's list. I think such expert's lists are very serious and helpful to many collectors.  For anyone who owns coins that Huang Ruiyong has ranked high, I am happy for them. Most people who own highly prized coins and medals probably worked hard or spent good money to acquire them....there's nothing wrong with honest hard work.

Cheers!

Offline fwang2450

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Re: Huang Ruiyong's medal ranking list
« Reply #26 on: December 28, 2012, 05:51:58 PM »
These coin/medal ranking lists remind me of the college ranking lists. The numeric ranks, rank and test scores, or stars seem to make them more objective than they really are, but some people like me are still suckers of those lists. Armed with these lists, all the sudden I am some sort of experts just like Huang or Ge or Frank ... or wannabe anyway.

Happy new year, and hopefully more new ranking lists! I can't wait.
I am a total newbie. Translation does not make me an expert :)

Offline poconopenn

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Re: Huang Ruiyong's medal ranking list
« Reply #27 on: December 28, 2012, 05:56:21 PM »
Currently, Mr. Huang is in charge of coin department at EPAMA Auction House at Shanghai. He also makes many appearances at investment talk shows. As coin collector, I will consider his book as one of the source of information, but definitely not the only source. There are many books in the market. The books mentioned in the following thread are good source of information.

http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=6707.0

Offline fwang2450

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Re: Huang Ruiyong's medal ranking list
« Reply #28 on: December 28, 2012, 06:05:08 PM »
mmissinglink,

Congratulations again on owning the top ranking medal. Huang Ruiyong is one of the top MCC collectors, but his lists are based on the criteria he lists in his book. There were some controversies on some coins at the auctions that he managed, but he has not been known to hoard coins ranking high on his lists. Top ranking coins/medals are difficult to hoard anyway because of their high price and rarity. The person known to own 97% of all MCC coins (excluding medals) is King Chan in Hong Kong.

Offline pandaccumulator

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Re: Huang Ruiyong's medal ranking list
« Reply #29 on: December 28, 2012, 06:14:36 PM »
mmissinglink,

Congratulations again on owning the top ranking medal. Huang Ruiyong is one of the top MCC collectors, but his lists are based on the criteria he lists in his book. There were some controversies on some coins at the auctions that he managed, but he has not been known to hoard coins ranking high on his lists. Top ranking coins/medals are difficult to hoard anyway because of their high price and rarity. The person known to own 97% of all MCC coins (excluding medals) is King Chan in Hong Kong.
97% of all owned by one person? Or just certain category of rare MCC?

Offline fwang2450

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Re: Huang Ruiyong's medal ranking list
« Reply #30 on: December 28, 2012, 06:15:45 PM »
Currently, Mr. Huang is in charge of coin department at EPAMA Auction House at Shanghai. He also makes many appearances at investment talk shows. As coin collector, I will consider his book as one of the source of information, but definitely not the only source. There are many books in the market. The books mentioned in the following thread are good source of information.

http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=6707.0
From what I know, Huang left EPAMA, to head the Rongli MCC Research Institute. See the link here with his photos:
http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bqcoin.com%2Fread-htm-tid-808.html&hl=en&langpair=auto|en&tbb=1&ie=GB2312

He acted as the advisor (not the director) to the latest EPAMA auction in Sept: http://www.jibi.net/News/qbdjbd/142041335.html

Offline fwang2450

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Re: Huang Ruiyong's medal ranking list
« Reply #31 on: December 28, 2012, 06:20:32 PM »
97% of all owned by one person? Or just certain category of rare MCC?
Sorry for any misunderstanding. There are over 1600 MCC types released so far. He owns 97% of the types. He may own one or two or more specimens of each type.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2012, 06:22:37 PM by fwang2450 »

Offline pandaccumulator

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Re: Huang Ruiyong's medal ranking list
« Reply #32 on: December 28, 2012, 06:22:27 PM »
Thanks.

Offline mmissinglink

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Re: Huang Ruiyong's medal ranking list
« Reply #33 on: December 29, 2012, 12:55:04 AM »
mmissinglink,

Congratulations again on owning the top ranking medal. Huang Ruiyong is one of the top MCC collectors, but his lists are based on the criteria he lists in his book. There were some controversies on some coins at the auctions that he managed, but he has not been known to hoard coins ranking high on his lists. Top ranking coins/medals are difficult to hoard anyway because of their high price and rarity. The person known to own 97% of all MCC coins (excluding medals) is King Chan in Hong Kong.

Thank you fwang. I haven't received it back yet (FedEx still has it) but I learned that it was authenticated by NGC as real and graded of course.

I would like to be King Chan for a day!   :-)

barsenault

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Re: Huang Ruiyong's medal ranking list
« Reply #34 on: January 08, 2015, 02:34:50 PM »
My new baby.  1987 Longevity Medal

http://youtu.be/J2TnvBBSg8E

Offline mmissinglink

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Re: Huang Ruiyong's medal ranking list
« Reply #35 on: January 26, 2015, 03:22:20 PM »
No doubt that Chinese medals like this are truly beautiful...much more so than virtually every Chinese coins I've seen. Chinese medals score another victory point!   N31



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