Author Topic: Grading dilemma on on 5 pcs 'invention discovery' set  (Read 4891 times)

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Offline cabaretvolt

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Grading dilemma on on 5 pcs 'invention discovery' set
« on: November 30, 2012, 09:45:32 PM »
not bidding on this item but am curious about because there was a really interesting discussion
here that i was following regarding ngc/ncs fee increases etc and the potential bullish upshot effect
it might/will have on o.m.packaging

question:  even if you had an expert eye and could discern a lofty grade on these coins, the packaging
is so stellar what should be done?



"Okay, You people sit tight, hold the fort and keep the home fires burning. And if we're not back by dawn... call the president" - Burton

Offline heyimderrick

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Re: Grading dilemma on on 5 pcs 'invention discovery' set
« Reply #1 on: December 03, 2012, 02:11:07 PM »
I personally think it is a shame for the really interesting packaging/displays to be discarded after grading. Cardboard boxes are one thing, but these ornate cases and such are really works of art themselves and represent a history/culture that may some day be lost. If I owned a set like that, I would probably keep it as is because of the great eye-appeal. 

Offline dynamike51

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Re: Grading dilemma on on 5 pcs 'invention discovery' set
« Reply #2 on: December 03, 2012, 02:20:21 PM »
I personally think it is a shame for the really interesting packaging/displays to be discarded after grading. Cardboard boxes are one thing, but these ornate cases and such are really works of art themselves and represent a history/culture that may some day be lost. If I owned a set like that, I would probably keep it as is because of the great eye-appeal. 

My question: Why submit with the case/packaging if they are of some value?

Offline heyimderrick

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Re: Grading dilemma on on 5 pcs 'invention discovery' set
« Reply #3 on: December 03, 2012, 02:25:05 PM »
My question: Why submit with the case/packaging if they are of some value?

I didn't say that as clearly as I meant. I didn't mean send the packaging to NGC/PCGS and let them toss it after they grade the coins; I meant some people submit the coins and then just get rid of the packaging to keep the slabs on their own. Either way, I think that's a shame. I'm saying I would prefer a set like the one above to remain in its OMP/display, rather than having the graded coins and no display, or graded coins now with an empty display. But that's just me. If I were to grade something like the set above, I would definitely still save the display.

Offline fwang2450

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Re: Grading dilemma on on 5 pcs 'invention discovery' set
« Reply #4 on: December 03, 2012, 03:08:48 PM »
I personally think it is a shame for the really interesting packaging/displays to be discarded after grading. Cardboard boxes are one thing, but these ornate cases and such are really works of art themselves and represent a history/culture that may some day be lost. If I owned a set like that, I would probably keep it as is because of the great eye-appeal. 
I own a set like this and will not have the coins graded. They belong to the box.

Offline dobedo

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Re: Grading dilemma on on 5 pcs 'invention discovery' set
« Reply #5 on: December 04, 2012, 10:58:19 PM »
I own a set like this and will not have the coins graded. They belong to the box.
If I had a set like this, I'd not have it any other way. They belong to each other.

Offline poconopenn

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Re: Grading dilemma on on 5 pcs 'invention discovery' set
« Reply #6 on: December 05, 2012, 12:29:48 AM »
The value of Morgan dollar inside a GSA holder is higher than graded coin. IMO, the value of MCC in original package, such as this one, will be higher than graded coin in the future. Recent auctions in China for coin sets with COA # such as 00001, 00888, etc. have a final value more than double the set without such special number. For collector, the original package is just as collectible as coin.

Offline Batman

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Re: Grading dilemma on on 5 pcs 'invention discovery' set
« Reply #7 on: December 05, 2012, 12:51:23 AM »
I have a 1996 set in omp with original box and the working music box...I have no intentions of getting it graded.

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Re: Grading dilemma on on 5 pcs 'invention discovery' set
« Reply #8 on: December 05, 2012, 01:16:22 AM »
Since your coins are not double sealed and assuming they all look very nice (69 quality), I would recommend you get the coins graded if you have any desire to sell this set in the next couple of years.  Unsealed coins sold over internet sell for a fraction of their true value if they are PF69 quality.  Also as we have seen the cost of conservation and grading keeps going up, so the sooner you can conserve and grade, the better off you will be. 

To give you an idea how much I sell these sets for in different grades:
$450 Unsealed set with box, toy and COA
$600 Double sealed coin set with box, toy and COA
$550 PF68 set with box, toy and COA
$900 PF69 set with box, toy and COA
The cost of grading without conservation is about $100, conservation with grading is about $150.  So if you can get a few PF69, you create value by grading.  If you had a double sealed set the decision to grade is a little tougher.   

Arif

Offline Panda Halves

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Re: Grading dilemma on on 5 pcs 'invention discovery' set
« Reply #9 on: December 05, 2012, 02:07:55 AM »
I agree with Arif on this one.
So long as you retain the original capsules which you can request when sending to NCS then you have nothing to lose because they aren't double sealed.
If you don't get the grades you desire or want to revert to the original packaging you can always crack them out and put them back. Grading them can create value relative to risk and enhances future options in this case.

Offline Hippanda

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Re: Grading dilemma on on 5 pcs 'invention discovery' set
« Reply #10 on: December 05, 2012, 02:47:49 AM »
I own a set like this and will not have the coins graded. They belong to the box.
If I had a set like this, I'd not have it any other way. They belong to each other.
I have a 1996 set in omp with original box and the working music box...I have no intentions of getting it graded.

I agree with these comments... For special coin sets with special OMP,  it's the difference between Collectors and Sellers.  I believe Arif states the Current status, for "Sellers". And that may change soon, as Poconopenn so clearly predicts, and Exchange has stated before.  Soon there may plenty of slabbed lifeless coins, and no beautiful OMP.
Which will be more dear, then?

Yes, if one plans on sellling immediately maybe they should have pedigree.  But if one is a collector and wants to enjoy looking at their special set, who can say they prefer looking at sterile plastic slabs, versus looking at beautiful specially designed themed presentation boxes, which are soulfully artful in their own right?

To me its like the difference of having a beautiful bird of paradise alive with unproven pedigree, versus having a dead stuffed bird with a tag of quality stapled on it.

Separating them and keeping the coins slabbed and keeping the OMP empty, makes as much sense to me as having the bird dead and stuffed, and yet keeping the aviary too, but empty.



« Last Edit: December 05, 2012, 02:59:01 AM by Hipanda »
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Offline Obsidian

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Re: Grading dilemma on on 5 pcs 'invention discovery' set
« Reply #11 on: December 05, 2012, 03:35:55 AM »
This topic seems to pop up every so often and it is honestly a tough one for me.  I actually own one of these sets in question and it is still in OMP.  However, I primarily own gold pandas and those are all graded.  As a general rule I do prefer graded coins for a number of reasons.  Two of the main reasons being protection and liquidity.  

Protection:  For a collector or investor, protection of the coin always matters.  I like being able to hand the coin to a person I am showing it to.  Having the coin graded allows me to do this.  Everytime I open an OMP and try to show both sides of the coin I worry that either I will drop the coin or the person I am showing it to will drop the coin.  Or that just popping it out of the box and flipping the coin around will damage it.  The box the coin came in might be cool but I am showing the coin, not the box.  If I wanted to collect beautiful boxes, I'd collect them and not coins.  Don't get me wrong, I appreciate the boxes and do believe they are great to have with the coin.  However, the most important thing to me is protection of the coin.

As a side note to protection.  These boxes take up a lot of space.  I protect my coins by keeping them in a safety deposit box most of the time.  I am able to store the "slabbed" coins in my safety deposit box and keep the boxes at home in a closet.  I'd rather lose my boxes to fire and theft than my boxes AND coins.

Liquidity:  You might think this only matter to investors / dealers.  This certainly isn't the case.  This matters to everyone, including collectors, we just have a different ownership time horizon.  Many collectors over a lifetime sell large portions of their collections.  Often times when "upgrading" from one coin to another.  Many times because life happens and they are forced to sell.  And lastly, even if a collector happens to keep the collection throughout their life, at some point it is likely their loved ones will be interested in selling.  A graded coin is more liquid because the authenticity / quality of the coin is more certain.  Anytime uncertainty is removed from any market you have increased liquidity.  Also, in most markets where liquidity increases, you also have increased value.  And in todays day and age where transactions take place all around the world and often times via the internet, grading is an answer to this.  Most of the large auction houses now have live online bidding, eBay, etc.

Don't get me wrong, I have a few coins in OMP and I am often torn when it comes to grading these coins with the nice boxes.  In the end, I believe I will eventually grade them because it simply makes sense to me.  And as for the logic that in time most coins will be graded and OMP will become the rare coins.  That might be the case, however, I would bet many of the OMP coins will be some of the poorest quality coins around.  I also believe that in time, any single sealed coins will start to show the damage the plastic is likely doing to the coin.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2012, 03:41:34 AM by Obsidian »

Offline fractalfate

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Re: Grading dilemma on on 5 pcs 'invention discovery' set
« Reply #12 on: December 05, 2012, 09:12:11 AM »
Although I'm still not certain in regards to MCCs, I tell you what: I'm definitely going to keep this discussion in OCCFP (original CCF packaging). Brilliant!

Offline Gilmore

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Re: Grading dilemma on on 5 pcs 'invention discovery' set
« Reply #13 on: December 05, 2012, 09:06:21 PM »
This set is a real beauty. The coins without the box, and the box without the coins, do not look nearly as good as they are together. I would leave the set as it is.

As Arif said, grading these coins would make sense if you want to sell them in the short term. But you have to be sure that they can grade 69 or 70 in order to sell them for higher price.

I sold a 1996 silver coin set with the music box a while ago. Even though I was sure that the coins would grade high I had no 'heart' to destroy such set and grade the coins.

Offline pandamonium

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Re: Grading dilemma on on 5 pcs 'invention discovery' set
« Reply #14 on: December 05, 2012, 09:32:48 PM »
If you really like a coin or coin set, then why not own 1)  graded and 2) OMP w/ box & coa?  One of each for favorite MCC.................

Offline dobedo

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Re: Grading dilemma on on 5 pcs 'invention discovery' set
« Reply #15 on: December 05, 2012, 10:03:33 PM »
If you really like a coin or coin set, then why not own 1)  graded and 2) OMP w/ box & coa?  One of each for favorite MCC.................
Good idea! I'd even throw in a fake, just to be complete and for comparison.

Offline Batman

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Re: Grading dilemma on on 5 pcs 'invention discovery' set
« Reply #16 on: December 05, 2012, 10:17:13 PM »
Here is one of my prized COA's numbered 00888.  The coins exist but were not available for viewing this evening.  Not sure if the wooden box is original to 1994, but it is in mint shape.  Also, I have the outer cardboard box which I rarely see with a proof set.

Offline Batman

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Re: Grading dilemma on on 5 pcs 'invention discovery' set
« Reply #17 on: December 05, 2012, 10:17:48 PM »
more pics.

Offline Batman

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Re: Grading dilemma on on 5 pcs 'invention discovery' set
« Reply #18 on: December 05, 2012, 10:18:20 PM »
more pics.

Offline Batman

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Re: Grading dilemma on on 5 pcs 'invention discovery' set
« Reply #19 on: December 05, 2012, 10:19:53 PM »
last pic.

Offline Panda Halves

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Re: Grading dilemma on on 5 pcs 'invention discovery' set
« Reply #20 on: December 05, 2012, 10:21:02 PM »
That was on APMEX if I remember correctly.
A couple of months later the 888 1993 set sold on eBay.... Did you snag that one too?
Either way: Good snag on the 94 set.

Offline Hippanda

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Re: Grading dilemma on on 5 pcs 'invention discovery' set
« Reply #21 on: December 05, 2012, 10:28:52 PM »
That's one solution, one set of each, but it seems like its a middle ground compromise.

To collectors of special OMP editions, there is great value in keeping these in their special themed presentation boxes. Some were meant to be works of art ie Beijing Scenery.
Some people wish to denigrate the accesories as "toys" and place far greater weight on the condition of the coins by themselves.  I just dont see that, but to each their own.  Your opinion is valid.  So is mine.

I do understand those who say if it came in a simple pouch, like Pandas, nothing much is lost, might as well slab it.
I dont agree, But I just understand there is little difference in their eyes. I would rather have it in the pouch myself.
Slabs are so... Stepford Wifey. All the same.  No character, no soul, no history. Dead trophy animal specimens in glass, Taxidermy.  I dont understand taking fine coins away from special presentation boxes.

Sure, slabbed coins are easier to sell, more liquid... So what?  Are you a lover with committment, or a swapper?  

Yes boxes take up room.  So does fine art.  Safe deposit boxes are fine for some things, I have one myself, with high grade rare dumb slabbed coins for investment, but I dont have my art there.  Art is to enjoy easily at leisure.

Are you really going to separate them, slab some and keep an empty beautiful theme box somewhere else?
That's crazy IMO. That's being a bean-counter and not a lover of art. What do you do, please tell me, look at empty boxes and imagine the nice coins being inside?

I'd rather have the I & D set in OMP with the beautiful presentation box and so called" toy", to be able to look at and enjoy in its original context, and let my mind roam and think of history and their context, with them in possibly less than perfect 69 condition, than a 69 in a plastic soul-less slabbed tomb. By the way, slabbed is another term for entombed. Dead. Soul-less.  (I Dont really care if that nice painting on my wall is given an arbitrary 69 by some stranger either). I'm going to enjoy it, and not put it under glass.  I've seen some rich folk do that, put fine paintings under glass, how sterile and lifeless and inaccessable that seems.

Are you a Collector/Lover, an Investor, or a Taxidermist?

"He who speaks without modesty will find it difficult to make his words good."

Confucius

Offline Batman

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Re: Grading dilemma on on 5 pcs 'invention discovery' set
« Reply #22 on: December 05, 2012, 10:44:11 PM »
That was on APMEX if I remember correctly.
A couple of months later the 888 1993 set sold on eBay.... Did you snag that one too?
Either way: Good snag on the 94 set.

Yes this was the APMEX set.  I missed the 1993 set.

Offline Hippanda

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Re: Grading dilemma on on 5 pcs 'invention discovery' set
« Reply #23 on: December 05, 2012, 11:05:36 PM »
You slabbed them?
« Last Edit: December 05, 2012, 11:07:53 PM by Hipanda »
"He who speaks without modesty will find it difficult to make his words good."

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Offline Batman

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Re: Grading dilemma on on 5 pcs 'invention discovery' set
« Reply #24 on: December 05, 2012, 11:10:20 PM »
Coins are still double sealed in an original uncut strip.

Offline Hippanda

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Re: Grading dilemma on on 5 pcs 'invention discovery' set
« Reply #25 on: December 05, 2012, 11:17:44 PM »
Nice !!   :thumbup1:
"He who speaks without modesty will find it difficult to make his words good."

Confucius

Offline Obsidian

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Re: Grading dilemma on on 5 pcs 'invention discovery' set
« Reply #26 on: December 05, 2012, 11:19:38 PM »
Well all this talk about soul-less and entombed is a bit melodramatic for my taste.  We are talking about coins and boxes aren't we?  To each his own.  Let me put it this way.  I like OMP however take this set in discussion.  If I was going to buy this sight unseen over the Internet I'd personally prefer to buy a high grade "slabbed" set with box, COA and capsules and then crack it open and put it in the capsules if I was really that set on having it in the capsules and original packaging.  At least then I would know it was in great condition.

And as for collectors swapping coins it happens all the time.  I rencently traded multiple BU sets for a full PF-69 1992 proof set.  Anyone familiar with this set knows that if you buy this 1992 proof set raw you have no idea what kind of condition you end up with.  So now I have a very nice 1992 proof set including box, outter box and COA.  And yes the coins are in the safety deposit box and the box is not.  When I want to look at the coins or show them to somebody I put them together.  Although this is a set i admit i should put the box in the safety deposit box for safe keeping.  The coins are protected and not left to get further damaged in the "original" capsules that have so notoriously damaged most of these sets.  The coins didn't fit well in these capsules.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2012, 11:27:12 PM by Obsidian »

Offline Hippanda

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Re: Grading dilemma on on 5 pcs 'invention discovery' set
« Reply #27 on: December 05, 2012, 11:26:13 PM »
Yup.

To each his own.

I notice from your footer which you show, you value having high grade, slabbed coins, in the top ranking, versus other collectors.  Good!

I don't care a lick. Me, I much prefer OMP.  In 67,68, 65... Doesn't matter,  actually. Some of the 68s are 69s, some of the 69s, 68s.  We all know that.

Do I have 70s?     Yep.  Somewhere at the bottom of my heap, I never look at them, nor my stock certificates for that matter.

Same thing to me (Yawn). Just a different perspective I am trying to convey. Nobody's right or wrong, just personal preference. Somebody's got to help keep the grading firms afloat in these tough times.

Do I look at my OMP sets with the coins and the "toys" and ornate gilded hand painted boxes?  Yes, all the time, they are like "Fine Coffee Table Art Books".  I would never think to separate them, or entomb them, just to meet other people's expectations of them.

But I realize many people do.

Congrats on getting the 1992 Proof Set Obsidian-  that's an enjoyable set to own.  I was lucky many years ago, a lady who had a full series of Proof Sets wanted to sell. She had them in their original boxes, and that's where they have stayed. I much prefer the rich red background (connoting wealth in China) and seeing them all together rather than in slabs, myself.
(And I dont much care if they are 68s or 69s, they seem perfect under 16x loops if I bother to care.)



« Last Edit: December 05, 2012, 11:45:25 PM by Hipanda »
"He who speaks without modesty will find it difficult to make his words good."

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Offline Hippanda

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Re: Grading dilemma on on 5 pcs 'invention discovery' set
« Reply #28 on: December 05, 2012, 11:50:26 PM »
By the way, if one goes for the OMP philosophy, one best have a secure big closet or two or three, like WG ! :001_tt1:
"He who speaks without modesty will find it difficult to make his words good."

Confucius

Offline Obsidian

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Re: Grading dilemma on on 5 pcs 'invention discovery' set
« Reply #29 on: December 05, 2012, 11:53:21 PM »
Yea my 1/10th is definitely higher grade.  It took me a while to get on board with 70s honestly.  But it's a challenge to collect and these registry sets are a friendly form of competition.  I think that is good for the market. If everyone just collected OMP we'd have hundreds or thousands of OMP 1/10th sets.  And theres little to make one more special than another.  I suppose by nature I am a bit competitive.  For me that set really is just for the fun if collecting.

And I really so appreciate OMP.  If I wanted to pile a lot more money into the market there are a few OMP sets I'd probably get and not grade.  Just for the variety and diversity if for nothing else.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2012, 11:59:16 PM by Obsidian »

Offline Hippanda

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Re: Grading dilemma on on 5 pcs 'invention discovery' set
« Reply #30 on: December 06, 2012, 12:03:33 AM »
Hey, with that, it just occurred to me-

Maybe we could start a thread: "Coins that Might be Best Enjoyed in OMP"

To start, I nominate :

Beijing Scenery
Invention and Discovery Series
1990 Phoenix and Dragon
1990 Goldfish
1990 Platinum Pandas ( some BEAUTIFUL hand-painted box varieties, not well-known)
(Hey are we seeing a pattern?)

My brain is admittedly tired: Any others of particular note?
"He who speaks without modesty will find it difficult to make his words good."

Confucius


Online KeyDate1/2ozPandas

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Re: Grading dilemma on on 5 pcs 'invention discovery' set
« Reply #32 on: December 06, 2012, 03:50:59 AM »
last pic.

The box that you have pictured is actually the box for the 1993 proof set.  The outer cardboard box is for the 1987 proof set.  I will post a picture of the 1994 proof set box, once I figure out how to do it.

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Re: Grading dilemma on on 5 pcs 'invention discovery' set
« Reply #33 on: December 06, 2012, 04:16:17 AM »
Picture of 1994 gold panda proof wooden box and cardboard box.